How W10 Will Prevent Updates from Randomly Rebooting Your PC: Machine Learning

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    As part of its announcement for the latest preview builds for Windows 10 Insiders, Microsoft revealed that future versions of the OS will “accurately predict when the right time to restart the device is” with the help of machine learning. “We will not only check if you are currently using your device before we restart, but we will also try to predict if you had just left the device to grab a cup of coffee and return shortly after.”

    The new system sounds much more convenient than today’s update process, though we’ll need to see how it behaves in the real world before passing judgement. Is the predictive model solely time-based, or does it take your current workload into account? Will my PC still potentially reboot if I step away for an hour but left a crucial, unsaved document or browser tab open?
     
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  2. TwiceOver

    TwiceOver 2[H]4U

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    I've seen complaints of this, but so far none of my PCs or the units I oversee have done this.

    Must be a "Home" edition issue.
     
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  3. Spidey329

    Spidey329 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I really hope it's just doing analysis to try and fit a "lunch" window (e.g. the PC normally goes to sleep/inactive for 60mins everyday at the same time) versus trying to guess whether you went to get coffee (that's not enough time for some updates).

    They also have to make sure it's rock solid, nothing hurts the work day more than coming back to finding that your PC will no longer boot because of an update issue.

    In other words, I'll still do manual updating.
     
  4. Wiffle

    Wiffle Limp Gawd

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    Well its a good thing they know what I am doing. The last thing I want is my PC to be rebooted during while watching porn.

    Yes, they know about that other naughty thing you do too.

     
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  5. Malecoda

    Malecoda Limp Gawd

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    The pro version should not be called pro It might be tolerable as "home". I once had it update my newer video driver with an older whql one while I was in the middle of a game in borderless mode. Had it reboot while running a game server. lost files due to corruption when rebooted unexpectedly for an update. etc. It seems to have gotten a little better recently, but the ads in the start menu and worse search results for local files are terrible. The constant helpful replacement of edge on the desktop and removal of options to reduce ads is amazing /s.
     
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  6. wootius

    wootius [H]Lite

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    Oh my fucking god, they're spending millions on AI and machine learning when they could just let us update things.
     
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  7. Absalom

    Absalom Gawd

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    Because, ya know, allowing the user to disable automatic reboots is not an option.
     
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  8. whatevs

    whatevs Limp Gawd

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    It's not like an annotated historical database of the folks most susceptible to malware wouldn't be really be helpful to get them screwed over even more. What can go wrong. Malware authors must be laughing their asses off.
     
  9. Azphira

    Azphira [H]ard|Gawd

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    I use pro and never have issues either. I guess home doesn't have this?

    IU3Qz3g.jpg
     
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  10. whatevs

    whatevs Limp Gawd

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    That's not same thing at all. People want patches, just not the ones that require a reboot (and even those, they just want to control when reboot happens).

    Personally, i'd rather have PCs force patched with latest security updates and break a few eggs. The alternative of rampant malware of the XP,... days sucked. It's so much less tech support for relatives since Windows 10.

    Just think this new "AI" buzzword buzzword, method sounds like it has not good side effects.
     
  11. oldmanbal

    oldmanbal 2[H]4U

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    This is the least complicated fix in existence, ask user if they want update, if no, then don't update.
     
  12. Galvin

    Galvin 2[H]4U

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    We know you go shopping every tuesday, so we'll reboot your pc during this time. Thanks to data mining we know what you do.
     
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  13. JargonGR

    JargonGR Limp Gawd

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    Although I get notifications nowadays regarding reboots there are periods that my PC goes without a reboot for weeks in a row. In such instances I put it to sleep only while I leave open several applications Qdir Instances, Adobe programs, Outlook and many other apps spanning across two taskbars.

    The single best thing Widnows 10 taught me is to save often (ctrl+) and to keep daily automated backups and folder synchronizations.

    But reboots should NEVER occur when I have open Applications (and files) such as Autocad, Illustrator or Photoshop.
     
  14. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

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    How about use some of that "AI" to actually test windows 10 patches before hitting send so you don't have to recall and reissue so many? You know, like back in the Win7 days before you fired the QA division and made customers your beta testers.

    The irony is MS swore that they need all that telemetry data from customer PCs to "make windows better". So they have more telemetry data than ever while the patch quality situation is worse than ever.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2018
  15. SecretStash

    SecretStash Limp Gawd

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    Microsoft, always avoiding solving problems for real issues that real people want fixed.

    Many companies will say, "screw what the customer wants." But Microsoft is probably the greatest at creating some elaborate system for creating a facade of giving what the customer wants, but not actually giving what they want.
     
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  16. MV75

    MV75 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Remember that little box that popped up with restart now, in 10 minutes in 4 hours that came up? That. That is all they needed.
     
  17. Ranulfo

    Ranulfo [H]ard|Gawd

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    I just had a refurb laptop with win10 home (it originally had win8pro according to a sticker on the bottom) decide that it needed to update while supposedly in sleep mode. If I hadn't walked by it would have been sitting there all night waiting for a prompt to reboot. This was with the lid down. Might be some sort of setting I missed that lid down doesn't put the machine in sleep mode but it was rather suprising to see all the power/hdd lights on and light leaking through the lid. Reboot/update took only 3-4 minutes but I had gotten no indication earlier that it had an update ready earlier that night.
     
  18. Grimham

    Grimham [H]ard|Gawd

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    "accurately predict when the right time to restart the device is" with the help of machine learning....

    Yay, more clock cycles and bloat, just what W10 needs.

    For fuck's sake...simply let the user choose when to do the update. And for those that put it off far too long have a 3-7 day countdown and then force the install.
     
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  19. ZeqOBpf6

    ZeqOBpf6 Gawd

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    Slippery slope with this one, though.
    "Hey this is Microsoft whats up"
    "my computers broken"
    "whats wrong"
    "idk lol. should I get a mac?"
    "It says you have an update"
    "yeah that's been coming up six times a day for the last two years i can fix that though by clicking the x"
    "you prob should get a mac"
     
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  20. emphy

    emphy Limp Gawd

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    Great, another piece of over engineered band aid that treats the symptom, not the problems: intrusive design and lack of users control (in this case, of the update process, but this goes for the entirety of the os)
     
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  21. ZeqOBpf6

    ZeqOBpf6 Gawd

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    They should also stagger this crap in to tiers. While I am understanding of their urge to deploy critical security and vulnerability patches, them demanding I update RIGHT NOW for "fall creators" update where the changelog is "nothing" is ridiculous.
     
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  22. auntjemima

    auntjemima [H]ardness Supreme

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    So their OS is fine then?

    I get asked if I want the updates installed and THEN *gasp* it asks me if I want to restart now, set a time or postpone for now! THE HORROR.

    Sometimes I wonder if you guys are running Windows 10 at all. [H]ard users my ass.
     
  23. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

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    "It didn't happen to me so why would it happen to anyone else" - that it? You've been lucky then and haven't had Windows 10 reboot in the middle of working with unsaved files open, or left your PC running a transcode or render job overnight - to be greeted with "Welcome to your useless April update!" and your job aborted and work lost - just so MS could force their latest crapware on your PC without notice.

    MS could address a lot of the complaints about updates if they'd provide a real (as in, working) option to install security patches only, and leave all the nonessential crap, phone apps and candy crush junk as optional.
     
  24. auntjemima

    auntjemima [H]ardness Supreme

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    I'll support your concerns regarding installation options. Selecting the updates you want was always a better route than having two options, install all or none".

    Outside of that, over years of using Windows 10 since the beta, I haven't had it restart without asking me. That said, a little proactivity goes a long way. If I postponed a restart some time during the day and needed my system to run overnight and it might be a concern that it will try to during that time, I would head into the settings and adjust my restart time, or PAUSE IT until I felt the time was reasonable.

    The options are there. You want two things.. you want the updates to ask you which to install and you want to choose when to restart. One of those are already built into the system for you, you just have to select them. The other, I also hope to see some day.
     
  25. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

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    That would all be great if Microsoft actually respected user settings in Windows 10. They do not - not consistently, anyway. Example I had 5-6 Win10 Pro PCs on build 1709, all configured identically to delay feature updates by 365 days via GPO, as well as in the settings menu. Half of them got build 1803 force-installed anyway, without notice or permission. It screwed up the software and drivers I had painstakingly configured on them and I had to roll back, then find an industrial strength update blocker (WUMT to the rescue). It's been continual headaches for all three years of W10.

    If they'd provide a working option to install ONLY security patches and leave the rest of their junk optional, there would be a lot less complaints.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2018
  26. auntjemima

    auntjemima [H]ardness Supreme

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    I did have the Windows Update service restart on me multiple times, even after disabling it and using the guest feature to prevent it from enabling again. Turns out the 1709 update was already downloaded before and in those folders it had programs run to enable the Update service and then try the update again and again and again, even though it kept failing. Turns out I had to disable the service AND delete the downloaded folders.

    I agree that it was a hassle and that MS shouldn't be able to reenable services that I disabled.

    But the restart thing is definitely a non-issue when the options are there to prevent it.
     
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  27. [21CW]killerofall

    [21CW]killerofall Aliens...

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    I have never had my pc ever reboot without warning while running Windows 10. I run the Pro version and I never made any changes to the default Windows update settings.
     
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  28. Gottfried Leibnizzle

    Gottfried Leibnizzle Limp Gawd

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    Why are you twats still dicking around on Windows?
     
  29. TwiceOver

    TwiceOver 2[H]4U

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    So it was prompting you. The original complains were it just rebooting whenever it felt like it. I have not experienced that at all.
     
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  30. darckhart

    darckhart Limp Gawd

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    just install the updates on next restart.... which with Windows, should be quite soon! bazinga!
     
  31. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Games, video editing.
     
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  32. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger [H]ard as it Gets

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    Visual Studio... And a lot more.
     
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  33. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Except the updates install when you shut down the computer.
    Nothing worse than shutting down your laptop at the end of the day, when you are running late, and having it come up with the "installing updates: and then having to wait for 20 minutes while a huge update is installed.

    This is one of the reasons I won't install Windows 10 on any office laptop unless I also install an SSD. Updates are too frequent and take too long for a mechanical drive.
     
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  34. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Um, those feature updates are absolutely huge, and even with a fast 4 or 6-core CPU and SSD, can literally take a few hours to prep and fully install - not to mention how certain settings are completely reset upon reboot.
    Microsoft is getting there, but those feature updates do need some definite work, especially on the reset-settings portion.

    At least the OS has been snappy and responsive afterwards, and it hasn't felt like it has been getting gradually more bloated, unlike XP, Vista, and 7 after all of the service packs and/or updates after all these years.
     
  35. emphy

    emphy Limp Gawd

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    Not everyone has the luxury of not requiring windows for their work. I am lucky enough not to need it, but even then, I sometimes need to visit it for government correspondence.
     
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  36. naib

    naib [H]ard|Gawd

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    You dont need machine learning for this... Just give back control of people's PC to those that own them
     
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  37. ChadD

    ChadD [H]ardness Supreme

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    A auto update on/off doesn't cost enough R&D money I guess.

    Really though if they are going to spend a boat load of cash to fix the issue in a long convoluted AI involved manner... why not just spend the same amount of time and money actually fixing their update system. Patching WITHOUT needing to reboot would be a fix. Patching in a way that doesn't eat system resources for extended periods of time would also be something to look into. Its not like its impossible. Linux, MacOS, Android, iOS, BSD basically every other OS in the world has fast simple easy updates... may require the odd reboot, but not for every single update. MS needs to replace their poorly aging file system so they can move to a proper inode type update process. Linux simply copies the new files and links the new inode address, wiping the record of the old inode address away... easy fast efficient. There is no need to copy the same file the system already downloaded and move it around for 20 min. Windows update is just so very terrible... using AI to find the optimal time for it to be terrible isn't really a fix.

    Better yet just spend the money converting Windows to a Linux base... and solve the update issue by default.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
  38. BSmith

    BSmith [H]ard|Gawd

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    So, let me get this straight.

    Microsoft is gathering so much information, from Windows 10 users, they can accurately predict when someone will leave their computer for a cup of coffee?

    Right. I think they have redefined what bloatware really is. Gotta love their marketing department. They are starting to rival Apple and Google in the ability to put a positive spin on something that intrusive. Amazing.
     
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  39. SvenBent

    SvenBent 2[H]4U

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    Translation: We are reducing the remaining skeleton QA crew but going to make it sound like we are doing improvements.

    I am guestimating that 80-90% of the phone calls I get about a PC suddenly running slow is due to windows 10 updates just hammering the device to death.
     
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  40. cocheese256

    cocheese256 Gawd

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    I still miss being able to disable updates all together. I have multiple laptops that my techs use in the shop to diagnose vehicles. The only reason they have an internet connection is to download calibration files for vehicle modules and to access workshop manuals, vehicle data/recalls directly from my parent company's server.

    I still believe in updates, and I want to install them. I just want to install them on our down time. Not while I have 10 or 15 people screaming for their vehicles.
     
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