Hdr + Aa

[entre nous]

Those are WAAAAAY overexposed, in fact I just get a white page with the following text :

The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
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Please try the following:

If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly.

Open the www.htkse.com home page, and then look for links to the information you want.
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HTTP 404 - File not found



hehe sorry man - had to. Still waiting to see HDR and AA on a 7900 GTX

My bandwidth limit is already over its max. I'll upload two to image shack for you...

http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dedust00028vo.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dedust00019vx.jpg

 

[dnottis]

I thought they were of Oblivion?

 

[Trimlock]

thats using the HDR in the Source engine

 

[Terra]

When Lost Coast came out I remember certain Nvidia Fans braging about the higher percision HDR they got. But now that ATI has All forms of HDR covered its just meh? I dont think Razor1 is a nvidia Shrill he has been very non biased imo. I dont agree with his ideas in this thread they are kinda off but a shrill for one arguement? Please.

I would like to se ATI do FP16 Blending HDR with FP16 Filtering

To quote Brent Justice:
"ATI
No FP16 Filtering
But FP16 Blending w/AA

NV
FP16 Filtering
FP16 Blending but w/o AA"

But if you wanna talk about "features" then a 7900 can do FP16 Blending HDR with FP16 Filtering...and SSAA
The preformance would suck on current hardware/software, but it is possible...
Allthoug NVIDIA cannot do MSAA and FP16 at the same time.due to the nature of their ALU's.

And even Humus dosn't think SSAA is "dead":
http://www.humus.ca/index.php?page=3D&ID=64

"In the debate of MSAA vs SSAA most people have now accepted multisampling as the victor, at least in relation to the performance impact. Still, there are a few that love supersampling for its higher quality and its ability to reduce aliasing not just on the edges but also internally in the surfaces, whether they occur due to a badly applied texture filter or high frequency components in shader output. Some have argued that in the era of shaders and the aliasing that some of them bring supersampling will make a comeback. I'll give them half a point for that; however, the future still belongs to multisampling when it comes to driver/hardware side antialiasing. Global supersampling is just too expensive to be an option in most cases. That doesn't mean supersampling will never be applied, in fact, I believe it will be used more frequently in the future, but it will be implemented on the application side, and probably directly in the shader. This is what this demo shows.

The advantages of supersampling in the shader is that it gives the developer fine-grained control over where to apply it, to what degree and what sample positions to use, rather than just providing a global switch. In this demo there's one a bit aliasing prone bumpmap on the floor. The aliasing is showing up with the specular lighting, which is a fairly common scenario. So the app supersamples this particular material and nothing more. The walls are not supersampled, neither is the skybox and certainly not the GUI. Furthermore, the shader only supersamples the specular lighting. The diffuse lighting does not have a problem with aliasing for this bumpmap, so it's not supersampled, nor is the lightmap, base material and so on. Additionally dynamic branching can be used to shave off even more of the work."

Terra - Sorry to proof you wrong

 

[{NG}Fidel]

Your kind of late, I think that was more for your own ego boost. Unless you didnt read the rest of the thread after that. Allthough Ill let you inflate your ego and go on. I know where I was wrong and thats all I care for.

 

[Terra]

Your kind of late, I think that was more for your own ego boost. Unless you didnt read the rest of the thread after that. Allthough Ill let you inflate your ego and go on. I know where I was wrong and thats all I care for.

Yet another informantive or argumentative post.
But why is it that I notice a certain trend from the user that often use "Argumentum ad hominem" indstead of actuallly writing an valid argument?

Terra - Nothing in my post was wrong..and you point the finger?

 

[{NG}Fidel]

Sigh please Terra your too focused on fighting to even understand my post. If you read it.

When I said this.

John to clarify I wasnt talking to you in that last post I was talking to the poster prior. I didnt see your post. I realize I should have be more specific. But I was just being vauge.

I meant it as I forget to specify that I was only refering to FP16 MSAA HDR.
Put down your sword and read my posts.

 

[Terra]

Sigh please Terra your too focused on fighting to even understand my post. If you read it.

When I said this.



I meant it as I forget to specify that I was only refering to FP16 MSAA HDR.
Put down your sword and read my posts.

I did read your post.
The part about "All forms of HDR" screamed at my eyes and made me hit the quote button *zap*
It didn't look vague at all.
Vauge is not "all forms"

Don't call me names or try and speak with any authority about my intentions/thoughts please.

Bottom line, you wrote something (VERY) wrong, I corrected you and in return I get comments about my ego.
Let me return the favour:
How big is your (Ati?)ego?

Terra - "All Forms of HDR" and then I am to blame...nice one

 

[{NG}Fidel]

Don't call me names or try and speak with any authority about my intentions/thoughts please

What? How dillusional are you? I think you are only capable of picking a fight. You post tries to pick me apart but I am not falling for it. Many times I have been in agreeance with you and Even Razor who was called a Nvidia Fourm Shrill and you want to say I have some sort of ATi based perogative?

Bottom line, you wrote something (VERY) wrong, I corrected you and in return I get comments about my ego.

I wish it had been that simple. Heres what went on my friend.
I wrote something in which I was hardly specific enough asI have said over and over agian.
You jumped on this quite fast and thats good of you. The problem is you totally misunderstand my vauge refrance. I was using large broad generalizing words when I shouldnt have. I wasnt being specific about the form of HDR I was talking about. Regardless of you understanding my other post or not you still jumped on me as If I was swearing by my post. Your first post was very attacking and thats not a way to show maturity or gain respect.

Terra - Sorry to proof you wrong

You information was all correct in terms of factual data. I am not and have not contested you once in that regard. You just seem to not understand that jumping in head first with you fists ready is not the right thing to do. If you dont get this post then fine and if you attack me agian fine. I am not going to tarnish this thread with our little spat.

I would agree with this.

Don't call me names or try and speak with any authority about my intentions/thoughts please

If you hadnt deserved it with your insulting and thoughtless post.

Terra - "All Forms of HDR" and then I am to blame...nice one

Your not taking into account my full post or any of my other posts. Its just a way to slander my name and a scare tactic..
I am 17 how old are you Terra.

 

[tornadotsunamilife]

On actual topic I think developers (mainly valve) have confused people with HDR and AA. Of course there are more than one form but some people hear one thing (like the big push nvidia gave FP16HDR last year) and presume the rest

 

[{NG}Fidel]

Thats more than true. But for most outsiders its got to be pretty confusing. Their are many ways of doing things in 3D graphics and they are not every day subjects. As A result if you see HDR and AA in CSS you assume that your Graphics card (X800, 6x00 7x00) can pull it off in any other game. To think other wise, well then either your a good gueser or I question your thought process.

 

[razor1]

I thought you said that you'd invite me to E3 so I could talk to TF or whoever the hell you are at the nVidia booth? More b.s. from you as usual I guess - ok I admit it, I'm trying to goad you into getting me an E3 pass Just ask your nVidia supervisor if he'll be kind enough to send me one.




Dude as far as I know you're that game company's janitor or nVidia PR man. Just because you showed a couple pictures of models doesn't mean you're substantiating yourself as a game engine programmer like you claim to be.



Most decent game developers love PR for their game, you're the first I've met that claims to be a programmer who shy's away from even mentioning the game you're working on. Like I said above, you still haven't proven that you're one of the key programmers yet.

LOL you will see with in a month.... got it? That was just a small preview of our new artwork. We have quite a bit more things to get done in this coming week .

BTW as I said you really should stop right now. You will get sh*t in you face big time . I'm just warning you. I'll start putting up screenshots and movies probably starting next week.

We are at nV's booth because we are starting to show off our game to the public and specifically to publishers.

Reason for not publicing until we are ready. Well you saw how Duke Nukem, HL2, Stalker all turned out. For us we know that won't happen, but we don't want to get ahead of ourselves. We want our code base to be cold well before our beta phase. . Do you want some of my employees to post here to? I'm sure a few of them would more then glady be happy to show you up. Actaully I'll ask some of my ex- employees to post here, he now works on Auto Assult which was released just yesterday.

 

[John Reynolds]

Terra - Nothing in my post was wrong..and you point the finger?

You sure nothing in your post was wrong? Like suggesting it's a limitation in the ALUs that prevents NVIDIA hardware from applying multi-sampling to FP16 render targets?

 

[cyks]

Yet another informantive or argumentative post.
But why is it that I notice a certain trend from the user that often use "Argumentum ad hominem" indstead of actuallly writing an valid argument?

Speak for yourself?

 

[Terra]

You sure nothing in your post was wrong? Like suggesting it's a limitation in the ALUs that prevents NVIDIA hardware from applying multi-sampling to FP16 render targets?

I was lead to belive that NVIDIA's cards can do HDR and SSAA(not at playable settings though), but not HDR and MSAA, due to that they implemented shared ALU's (to reduce transistor count) wich prevents both functions being used simultaneously...

Terra - Is that wrong?

 

[Jbirney]

Ok JB go to B3D and ask any of the numerous programmers there, they will say the same things I am, I know engines very well, I know software very well, this is something you keep forgetting, and I keep reminding you of. I think if you knew anything remotely close to actually programming, you would understand where I'm coming from.

Unreal 3 code base is completely different from previous engines if you didn't know that please stop. ...snip.

Razor I have been coding mods for Unreal and Q2 based games for more than 6 years now (never mind the fact that I have been coding for more than 10 years here at my real job wich is an EE in a large CE business). In that time I have made many contacts inside the industry both from Epic/ID and from developers that use their engine. I have talked to many developers that have gone into the soruce code of the egine and tweaked things. And none have told me it was that hard. Maybe the developers that I happen to talk with are just that good? Or maybe they did not make that many changes? Who knows.


I have access to various parts of Epic's UDN that is not shared publicly so I know how things worked at the source code level in the past and in the new unreal3 based games. I have seen/used source code for their past engines. I was amazing how many times I had to go back to the soruce code to see why native calls where not working when I was doing our melee system for UT2k4 and with some vechile work.


So yes razor I understand where you are coming from. But I have also have had a LOT of experince in this feild as well (again different levels but the point is still valid) and from my experinces and the work I have done, sorry I dont buy all that your saying. The point is still the same, your gernal statements about it being too hard is plain not correct. It depends on many things, it depends on what they are trying to do, it depends on the skill set of the programers, it depends on the engine, it depends on the time line, ect. And please I am not trying to say that a mod is anywhere near as tough as a game. But Razor1 respect is a 2 way street...

 

[John Reynolds]

I was lead to belive that NVIDIA's cards can do HDR and SSAA(not at playable settings though), but not HDR and MSAA, due to that they implemented shared ALU's (to reduce transistor count) wich prevents both functions being used simultaneously...

Terra - Is that wrong?

That functionality is derived from the backend, the ROPs. And I'm not sure what you're suggesting is "shared" in NVIDIA's current shader pipelines that would be relevent to the topic at hand.

 

[razor1]

Razor I have been coding mods for Unreal and Q2 based games for more than 6 years now (never mind the fact that I have been coding for more than 10 years here at my real job wich is an EE in a large CE business). In that time I have made many contacts inside the industry both from Epic/ID and from developers that use their engine. I have talked to many developers that have gone into the soruce code of the egine and tweaked things. And none have told me it was that hard. Maybe the developers that I happen to talk with are just that good? Or maybe they did not make that many changes? Who knows.


I have access to various parts of Epic's UDN that is not shared publicly so I know how things worked at the source code level in the past and in the new unreal3 based games. I have seen/used source code for their past engines. I was amazing how many times I had to go back to the soruce code to see why native calls where not working when I was doing our melee system for UT2k4 and with some vechile work.


So yes razor I understand where you are coming from. But I have also have had a LOT of experince in this feild as well (again different levels but the point is still valid) and from my experinces and the work I have done, sorry I dont buy all that your saying. The point is still the same, your gernal statements about it being too hard is plain not correct. It depends on many things, it depends on what they are trying to do, it depends on the skill set of the programers, it depends on the engine, it depends on the time line, ect. And please I am not trying to say that a mod is anywhere near as tough as a game. But Razor1 respect is a 2 way street...

I would agree with your last statemen then, but you think they would have had time to do it when the r520 came out 6 months back, that gives them 4 months to go gold (of course they needed 2 months after going gold to ramp up production).

Doing final beta takes around 6 months for this size of an RPG I would imagine. I'm not saying its too hard I'm saying it would have taken them too long, for the time line they were on. Thier competition is also with other games, which in 2 months many new games will be coming out. If Oblivion was trying to push thier graphics to the limit, Unreal 3 games are right around the corner, also Prey is around the corner, and Alan Wake. There was no time to do this kind of modification. Bethsedha would have lost intial sales if they waited 2 months. Its not a question of them doing it or not.

I'm not making a statement that one of the IHV's wanted or didn't not want the developers of this game to do what they did, but I will give Bethseda benefit of the doubt since they stated they "couldn't", (more like they didn't want to because of my personal experiences). If you are going to say that is not a possibility you guys really should have something to say other then accuse, because its obvious there is no facts or even remote possibilities behind your statements.

That wan't what I was talking about before. Where did you get the idea I said it was too hard for them to make the changes? I see where you get it from, I didn't mean it that way, it will take them too long for them to go into the code and learn how to make the changes then make them is what I'm saying. Its not a question of difficulty.

 

[phide]

Bethsedha would have lost intial sales if they waited 2 months. Its not a question of them doing it or not.

As a programmer, do you really believe it would take Bethesda that long to do another render path? I don't have much faith in Bethesda's programmers, but they could certainly manage such a simple feat in a third of that timeline.

On actual topic I think developers (mainly valve) have confused people with HDR and AA.

I disagree. I think we can blame the thousands of people that make broad, sweeping statements like "G7x can't do HDR and AA" on forums just like these (and this one as well), when the reality is that it can do both, depending on the render path as well as what kind of antialiasing.

If Kyle would entrust me with the task of changing every instance of "nVidia can't do HDR+AA" to "nVidia can't do FP16 HDR+multisampling" on these forums, it would be a task I'd willingly accept.

 

[John Reynolds]

If Kyle would entrust me with the task of changing every instance of "nVidia can't do HDR+AA" to "nVidia can't do FP16 HDR+multisampling" on these forums, it would be a task I'd willingly accept.

It's a huge mess, IMO. Even the Wikipedia entry for HDR is full of bad information.

 

[razor1]

As a programmer, do you really believe it would take Bethesda that long to do another render path? I don't have much faith in Bethesda's programmers, but they could certainly manage such a simple feat in a third of that timeline.

Of course there is just no way with the release of the x1x00 there was time to do add modifications into the rendercore, and then do stability checking, Alpha, Beta testing and stability checks are seperate phases of development. Usually the steps will go Emergant would have made the changes to the engine, do a stability check, then Bethseda would have gotten the modified engine. Ported thier code over. they would do thier stability check. Make any neccessary changes, Then again Beta the game. Then Betsheda will send the game to thier publisher (co-publisher). Then the publisher of the game has thier own stability check after the fact.

That would mean quite a bit of time. Take 2 Interective co published this game. Its not a simple process of oh the game is done lets make copies and sell it now.

 

[phide]

How much stability testing is required for an HDR render path? Are we not, basically, just downsampling an image, sampling its luminance, blurring it vertically and horizontally, then blending it? Not factoring in exposure control, this seems like a trivial thing to me.

I'm not a programmer, but I read how-to articles on rendering for shits and giggles. HDR seems like something one individual can certainly pound out in a week (50 hours), very possibly including testing and performance evaluations.

 

[razor1]

No its quite a simple process to allow MSAA + HDR, but depending on the engine paths it might get very tricky to add in.

Think about HDR for nV 40 in the Cry Engine and how it broke ATi's rendering path. Yeah Crytek got it in very fast we recieved the bata patch of 1.3 within a week of annoucement but it took quite sometime to get it fully functional and bug free. Finally the 1.3 patch was released around 2 months after annoucement. (orginally 1.2 was the patch but it was released and recalled).

Stability checking is to check every single feature of the game. I remember about 10 years back when there wasn't this much stress on checks, man so many games came out that just broke down mid way. Think it was a 1998 game Requiem, very fun game to play, but it keep crashed all over. Then again it was made by 3D0 .

 

[fallguy]

Make excuses all you want. The simple fact is, Bethesda dropped the ball. They should have gotten it to work within the game, or at the very least, contacted ATi for support on the issue. I dont know for fact that they didnt, but it sure doesnt appear so. Chuck said he read about Oblivion not working with HDR+AA, just like everyone else.

Of course I know you're going to side with whoever is opposite of ATi, but still.

 

[DivotMaker]

BTW as I said you really should stop right now. You will get sh*t in you face big time . I'm just warning you. I'll start putting up screenshots and movies probably starting next week.

What is it with you and all the warnings you post all over the internet? Do you think that just because you claim to represent a developer that gives you free reign to attempt to intimidate others? For someone who claims to represent a developer, you aren't doing your upcoming game any favors with the way you attack others when they don't

a) agree with you

b) call you on your incessantly obvious nV-bias

If I were your supervisor, I would be asking you two questions...

1) Why do you have so much time to spend arguing with prospective customers on 3D hardware forums?

2) What is your motivation in irritating and arguing with ATI users?

I have worked with a number of game developers in public forums and privately and I have NEVER worked or known of ANY developer or dev rep who is as combative and offensive as you are. Your actions here and at Rage3D are a PR nightmare for your company and your upcoming game. For someone who claims to be so perceptive and "in touch with their market", it is astonishing that you still don't "get it". Here's hoping someone at your company realizes what you are doing and puts a stop to it.

 

[razor1]

Make excuses all you want. The simple fact is, Bethesda dropped the ball. They should have gotten it to work within the game, or at the very least, contacted ATi for support on the issue. I dont know for fact that they didnt, but it sure doesnt appear so. Chuck said he read about Oblivion not working with HDR+AA, just like everyone else.

Of course I know you're going to side with whoever is opposite of ATi, but still.

Its called basing an arguement on facts. Obviously you haven't, or will, or won't ever do that.

You don't know that for a fact thats the problem. Chuck or any of the driver team engineers would have been the last person contacted anyways so how can you make a judgement with that? Just like you can pass judgement on everything else without any solid facts. If anything that shows it was a serisous problem. If this driver patch works on all games that AA + HDR doesn't work thats great, but that means there is a pretty big change in the way the driver behaves, which Chuck explained. Pure and simple, ATi should have done this before, it would have saved major headaches for other companies.

 

[razor1]

What is it with you and all the warnings you post all over the internet? Do you think that just because you claim to represent a developer that gives you free reign to attempt to intimidate others? For someone who claims to represent a developer, you aren't doing your upcoming game any favors with the way you attack others when they don't

a) agree with you

b) call you on your incessantly obvious nV-bias

If I were your supervisor, I would be asking you two questions...

1) Why do you have so much time to spend arguing with prospective customers on 3D hardware forums?

2) What is your motivation in irritating and arguing with ATI users?

I have worked with a number of game developers in public forums and privately and I have NEVER worked or known of ANY developer or dev rep who is as combative and offensive as you are. Your actions here and at Rage3D are a PR nightmare for your company and your upcoming game. For someone who claims to be so perceptive and "in touch with their market", it is astonishing that you still don't "get it". Here's hoping someone at your company realizes what you are doing and puts a stop to it.

Very good Divot, obviously you and Joker are always joined at the hip, I expected to see you come here sooner, you guys are way to predicable. I think your credibiilty was shot to hell at Rage, so you decided to come here to share your thoughts on how not to look bad infront of you piers?

BTW its my company, who is going to tell me what? You and Joker are the only two people that aren't going to buy our game and a few more isn't really going to matter so far so be it, you two will just be left out of the fun, I've gotten numerous feedback from members on this forum and Rage. So I really don't care for you two, you guys are a joke. Can't make everyone happy, thats part of life.

You guys base your arguements on non-facts, on speculation, thats the problem, if you guys don't see that thats your problem, don't try to argue about something without facts. When called upon those facts you have to show them. And I asked you for them a few times, which you conviently ignore. And when I catch you on a lie let it be time when you are working with a company, or what your position was, you can't back it up, Thats the problem.

Go back and check my posts, its almost always two sided, if you want i can search and pull up the posts that are pro-ATi . Specailly in this forum. This time I will let you do it though.

BTW I only get combative if someone like you and Joker try to put up an arguement with me without facts. I see you still don't have any facts. Now you guys know I'm a developer, I apoligized to you on your profressional ethetics, I don't see anything coming from you, what are you scorned? Come on get over it. If you want to argue with me, you better have some evidence, saying that my arguement is false without the proof its just plan stupid.

 

[{NG}Fidel]

You guys have allready ingrainned into your brain that Razor is a Nvidia AEG guy. This is like a witch hunt. You bash him for hsi lack of evidence yet your have none of your own. The fact is that if this topic werent so conterversial than you would back off of him. Due to the nature of the topic and it being ATIs largest selling point next to IQ and future proofing any opinion that is slightly negative or realist will set you off.

Of course I know you're going to side with whoever is opposite of ATi, but still.

Fallguy I think your getting a little gung ho here. The man has his own opinions.

Personaly I think ATI did a great move with this HDR AA jazz. With a Driver implementation as Razor said it allows Game Devs who are allready working way more than normal to save some time.

 

[John Reynolds]

You don't know that for a fact thats the problem. Chuck or any of the driver team engineers would have been the last person contacted anyways so how can you make a judgement with that?

No chance a member of the dev rel team wouldn't ping them for an opinion on the lack of a widely expected option (HDR + AA) for their latest parts? Especially with the biggest title of '06 so far?

Just like you can pass judgement on everything else without any solid facts.

Aren't you doing this in the above? Stating unequivocably that Chuck would be the last person contacted when you really don't know how well ATI's devrel team works with their driver group? Or do you actually know? Don't want to assume here.

If anything that shows it was a serisous problem. If this driver patch works on all games that AA + HDR doesn't work thats great, but that means there is a pretty big change in the way the driver behaves, which Chuck explained. Pure and simple, ATi should have done this before, it would have saved major headaches for other companies.

So let me get this straight: one of ATI's driver team members works out a way of adding this option into a major game, exposing the existing functionality of their current high-end parts that's unique to them and of great marketing advantage to the company, and you turn it into being a serious problem for ATI? That, my friend, is some twisted logic from the public perspective.

 

[razor1]

No chance a member of the dev rel team wouldn't ping them for an opinion on the lack of a widely expected option (HDR + AA) for their latest parts? Especially with the biggest title of '06 so far?

Aren't you doing this in the above? Stating unequivocably that Chuck would be the last person contacted when you really don't know how well ATI's devrel team works with their driver group? Or do you actually know? Don't want to assume here.

So let me get this straight: one of ATI's driver team members works out a way of adding this option into a major game, exposing the existing functionality of their current high-end parts that's unique to them and of great marketing advantage to the company, and you turn it into being a serious problem for ATI? That, my friend, is some twisted logic from the public perspective.

Dev Rel might go to the driver team if there is no other way around the problem.

A) problem with the software
B) driver issues
C) hardware problems

Thats the way it goes. Of course this is a software issue. But with many other games this patch also works, which is great, it will save us around three months time from going from patch 1.3 to patch 1.4 on the Cry Engine. This is why I know how long it takes to add in features and stability testing. Because we have done it in 3 different occassion.

Literial we were going to skip patch 1.4 until after our demo was done, because our goal was to finish our Demo at a set amount of time. Now we can reach that goal and more at least from a graphical point of view, there maybe other changes in patch 1.4 but specificailly in multiplayer which is not our goal right now.

I'm not passing judgement on Chuck, I think what he did was great. We need more people like him, it would have saved us quite a bit of time in the past if certain things were preped in the drivers.

I'm not saying its a serious problem, when did I ever say that? John you have to look at things two ways here.

Asking the right questions will get you the right answers, not being judgemental. If this patch didn't work on other software I would agree with you, but it does.

 

[DivotMaker]

Very good Divot, obviously you and Joker are always joined at the hip, I expected to see you come here sooner, you guys are way to predicable. I think your credibiilty was shot to hell at Rage, so you decided to come here to share your thoughts on how not to look bad infront of you piers?

My credibility is perfectly intact because you were the ONLY one who questioned what I had stated. My contacts at EA had a good laugh at your expense when I directed them to your threats to "report me". If anyone has been discredited, it is you. They also confirmed that what I posted was indeed accurate. Funny how that works when you are actually involved in the development of said projects. What's that? You weren't involved in any of them? Yet you still insist you know more about them than I do? ROFL...what a tragic comedy you have become....

On a side note, a "pier" is a stretch of dock sticking out into a waterway.

BTW its my company, who is going to tell me what? You and Joker are the only two people that aren't going to buy our game and a few more isn't really going to matter so far so be it, you two will just be left out of the fun, I've gotten numerous feedback from members on this forum and Rage. So I really don't care for you two, you guys are a joke. Can't make everyone happy, thats part of life.

You REALLY do not get it. Hard to believe that someone who owns a company can be SO blatantly arrogant. You think you have only turned off a couple of people? It is not every day that someone starts a thread asking for a user (YOU) to be banned as you were at Rage3D. Your pompous arrogance will catch up to you sooner than you think, if it hasn't happened already. I can also guarantee you if anyone asks me what I think of your or your game, I will simply show them examples of your behavior along with your threats and attempts at intimidation at Rage3D and let them judge for themselves. Something tells me they will be less than impressed....

You guys base your arguements on non-facts, on speculation, thats the problem, if you guys don't see that thats your problem, don't try to argue about something without facts. When called upon those facts you have to show them. And I asked you for them a few times, which you conviently ignore. And when I catch you on a lie let it be time when you are working with a company, or what your position was, you can't back it up, Thats the problem.

The problem is that you cannot accept that someone else knows more about certain situations and scenarios than you do. You claim to know everything and you simply don't. In some cases (like the one discussed at Rage3D), you are clueless. You can try to deflect your ignorance by changing the subject or turning the discussion into something completely OT. You are a master at that.

Not once have I lied. Not once. How you can pretend to know the first thing about my situation is the epitome of arrogance and ignorance. I have every documented fact with which to back my arguments. You have nothing to counter with except to call me a liar. How pathetic.

Go back and check my posts, its almost always two sided, if you want i can search and pull up the posts that are pro-ATi . Specailly in this forum. This time I will let you do it though.

No need to. I can see you have picked up here where you left off at Rage3D. I am sure you will respond with more threats and name-calling, but at some point, people are going to see who and what you are, if they haven't already.

BTW I only get combative if someone like you and Joker try to put up an arguement with me without facts. I see you still don't have any facts. Now you guys know I'm a developer, I apoligized to you on your profressional ethetics, I don't see anything coming from you, what are you scorned? Come on get over it. If you want to argue with me, you better have some evidence, saying that my arguement is false without the proof its just plan stupid.

I see you are still the king of editing after posting. Very poor forum etiquette.

Facts I have and always have had. I have proven my case at Rage3D with publicly available information which incredibly you choose to refute. In fact, if you really are a developer, then you also know that I cannot possibly submit documents that were under NDA. Even if the NDA has expired, I am not at liberty to disclose private documents on a public forum. Even if I wanted to reveal internal documents, I could not do so. You know this as well and your whole motivation is to try to get me into trouble with the developer/publisher. Sorry, not going to happen. So you can go along and claim I am a liar or whatever, but the facts are on my side, not yours. Always have been, always will be.

Flame on....

 

[DivotMaker]

No chance a member of the dev rel team wouldn't ping them for an opinion on the lack of a widely expected option (HDR + AA) for their latest parts? Especially with the biggest title of '06 so far?



Aren't you doing this in the above? Stating unequivocably that Chuck would be the last person contacted when you really don't know how well ATI's devrel team works with their driver group? Or do you actually know? Don't want to assume here.



So let me get this straight: one of ATI's driver team members works out a way of adding this option into a major game, exposing the existing functionality of their current high-end parts that's unique to them and of great marketing advantage to the company, and you turn it into being a serious problem for ATI? That, my friend, is some twisted logic from the public perspective.

John,

You are trying to reason with someone who only recognizes HIS point of view. At the end of the day, it is razor1's way or the highway.....

 

[razor1]

My credibility is perfectly intact because you were the ONLY one who questioned what I had stated. My contacts at EA had a good laugh at your expense when I directed them to your threats to "report me". If anyone has been discredited, it is you. They also confirmed that what I posted was indeed accurate. Funny how that works when you are actually involved in the development of said projects. What's that? You weren't involved in any of them? Yet you still insist you know more about them than I do? ROFL...what a tragic comedy you have become....

On a side note, a "pier" is a stretch of dock sticking out into a waterway.

Its a two way street the people I talked to weren't too happy, you shouldn't be so open about "your knowledge" because you don't know when not to talk.

You REALLY do not get it. Hard to believe that someone who owns a company can be SO blatantly arrogant. You think you have only turned off a couple of people? It is not every day that someone starts a thread asking for a user (YOU) to be banned as you were at Rage3D. Your pompous arrogance will catch up to you sooner than you think, if it hasn't happened already. I can also guarantee you if anyone asks me what I think of your or your game, I will simply show them examples of your behavior along with your threats and attempts at intimidation at Rage3D and let them judge for themselves. Something tells me they will be less than impressed....

Go ahead I'm not talking with those people anyways

See thats the problem you talk like a dog that is locked up in a cage. You can't get your point across and you get offensive when someone points you out. If you can't show the documentation, that don't say it at all.

The problem is that you cannot accept that someone else knows more about certain situations and scenarios than you do. You claim to know everything and you simply don't. In some cases (like the one discussed at Rage3D), you are clueless. You can try to deflect your ignorance by changing the subject or turning the discussion into something completely OT. You are a master at that.

Coming from people like you yeah I won't accept that you know more then me because you talk about things that you "heard" not that you know. If you put your posts in a fashion that is not directed at anyone, or stated as "I think" or In my opinion, or if you have proof share that proof not just saying "I have heard from others"

Not once have I lied. Not once. How you can pretend to know the first thing about my situation is the epitome of arrogance and ignorance. I have every documented fact with which to back my arguments. You have nothing to counter with except to call me a liar. How pathetic.

Show us these documented facts. I think I said I would change my view if you showed them? I think the other people here on this forum will also apprciate it aswell.

No need to. I can see you have picked up here where you left off at Rage3D. I am sure you will respond with more threats and name-calling, but at some point, people are going to see who and what you are, if they haven't already.

Ignorance is bliss

I see you are still the king of editing after posting. Very poor forum etiquette.

Facts I have and always have had. I have proven my case at Rage3D with publicly available information which incredibly you choose to refute. In fact, if you really are a developer, then you also know that I cannot possibly submit documents that were under NDA. Even if the NDA has expired, I am not at liberty to disclose private documents on a public forum. Even if I wanted to reveal internal documents, I could not do so. You know this as well and your whole motivation is to try to get me into trouble with the developer/publisher. Sorry, not going to happen. So you can go along and claim I am a liar or whatever, but the facts are on my side, not yours. Always have been, always will be.

I don't want you to get into trouble, but if you want to talk about something and don't have the proof to back it up thats not good. I think others on the forum would like to hear the proof too, don't you? I called your post on showing the proof behind your statement, if you don't show that proof, or not able to show that proof, how am I to take your statement as truth? Give me an answer for that and if its good, I will change my views. I don't take things for face value, so I questioned your motives, and asked you for proof of the statement you made, you conviently deny 50% my arguement, while whole heartedly keep your side of things intact, thats not right. You immidiately got on the defensive side, when asked about your relationship with the information, you were not forth coming at all, you weren't in any mood to discuss or show proof of any of your statements. I could not and still cannot share views of your statements or even believe your views are actually experiences.

Flame on....

And thats not being arrogent?

 

[DivotMaker]

Its a two way street the people I talked to weren't too happy, you shouldn't be so open about "your knowledge" because you don't know when not to talk.

Yeah right. Blow some more smoke.

Go ahead I'm not talking with those people anyways

Who? ROFL...

See thats the problem you talk like a dog that is locked up in a cage. You can't get your point across and you get offensive when someone points you out. If you can't show the documentation, that don't say it at all.

I don't need documentation because the information is already public domain and has been for several years. You can't grasp this because you simply can't admit you are WRONG. I feel sorry for you.

Coming from people like you yeah I won't accept that you know more then me because you talk about things that you "heard" not that you know. If you put your posts in a fashion that is not directed at anyone, or stated as "I think" or In my opinion, or if you have proof share that proof not just saying "I have heard from others"

I never said such a thing. I stated facts. I stated facts from communications with the actual publisher and developer. Some of those facts were forwarded to me so that I could post responses to users asking why certain features of the game would run on one card but not others. How you can refute this is the epitome of arrogance. You were not there nor a part of the team or process. How pompous for you to assume you know anything about the situation. You really need to come to grips that you are out of your league on this issue.

Show us these documented facts. I think I said I would change my view if you showed them? I think the other people here on this forum will also apprciate it aswell.

Who are you? Since when do I owe YOU proof of anything? YOU are the one who has claimed I am wrong. Where is YOUR proof? Oh, that's right, you have none. I don't owe you a thing. Besides, the proof is all over the internet.

Ignorance is bliss

You should be in a most blissful state then. Congratulations.

I don't want you to get into trouble, but if you want to talk about something and don't have the proof to back it up thats not good.

Get ME in trouble? You do not know the first thing about me or who I am. However, I will take my chances as I have relationships with the companies in question that date several years. Give it your best shot. You might want to proceed cautiously, though as I have many friends at the companies in question who value our mutual relationships. They will not be receptive to you.

I think others on the forum would like to hear the proof too, don't you? I called your post on showing the proof behind your statement, if you don't show that proof, or not able to show that proof, how am I to take your statement as truth? Give me an answer for that and if its good, I will change my views.

Sorry, but the burden of proof is and has always been on YOU. YOU are the only one who has disputed what I have stated publicly. Others have stated the same things because the information and "proof" is all over the internet and in public forums.

And thats not being arrogent?

Not when the shoe fits you so well. Spellcheck is your friend....

 

[Rollo]

Make excuses all you want. The simple fact is, Bethesda dropped the ball. They should have gotten it to work within the game, or at the very least, contacted ATi for support on the issue. I dont know for fact that they didnt, but it sure doesnt appear so. Chuck said he read about Oblivion not working with HDR+AA, just like everyone else.

Of course I know you're going to side with whoever is opposite of ATi, but still.

It's not up to Bethesda to spend time and money to code for a feature with a very small user base.

Like it or not Fallguy, history shows us that ATI only features are rarely adopted by developers.

If you want to refute this, please provide examples, because I sure don't remember ever thinking "Man, if only I had an ATI card I could use this cool tech in all my favorite games!". I've been buying gaming cards since there have BEEN gaming cards, and it seems to me nothing they've ever come up with really caught on.

Remember Tru-Form? Or how about that new super duper compression they had last gen?

 

[Rollo]

You guys have allready ingrainned into your brain that Razor is a Nvidia AEG guy. This is like a witch hunt. You bash him for hsi lack of evidence yet your have none of your own. The fact is that if this topic werent so conterversial than you would back off of him. Due to the nature of the topic and it being ATIs largest selling point next to IQ and future proofing any opinion that is slightly negative or realist will set you off.


Fallguy I think your getting a little gung ho here. The man has his own opinions.

Personaly I think ATI did a great move with this HDR AA jazz. With a Driver implementation as Razor said it allows Game Devs who are allready working way more than normal to save some time.

Razor1 is not in the nVidia User Group.

I don't have any reason to think he's not what he says he is, and personally, I'll base my decision to buy his game based on if it's a type I like to play and the reviews it gets. (not whether or not he argues on forums)

If he really does own a company that developed a modern title, and had a hand in the code, he likely understands many of these issues on a level few of us will. (myself included, for sure)

Those of us who read white papers, articles, and others opinions will never have the some of the knowledge a dev will.

I'd rather read what he has to say than have him banned because a few so called "experts" didn't like his opinion of their favorite brand.

My $.02

 

[razor1]

Yeah right. Blow some more smoke.

Very nice comment


BTW until you show me proof, at least me dude you don't need to open it up, I'll freakin sign an NDA with you if you like.

Not when the shoe fits you so well. Spellcheck is your friend...

As I said English isn't my first language, my weak point is spelling, if you have nothing else to pick on. I would like to see you speak Hindi, or Kanada, or Telegu. You probably couldn't even say Hindu gods name right.

You can't show me proof since you have none is where I'm coming from, you say your out of the NDA commitment, you can share the information. Its called professional journalism. A journalist or newspaper can be held in a court of law for such things. As can you, I'm not saying I'm judging you, but at least give me evidence for me to change my view. If you can't you going on a tirad won't amount to anything.


Edit: spelling error, guess spelling must be one of your pet peeves.
I will keep posting "NO EVIDENCE" and will not comment on your posts from this point on word until you show me proof.

 

[entre nous]

Oh the madness....

I think HDR+AA is awesome, no matter what the HDR procedure. I can't wait until both Nvidia and Ati users can play with HDR+AA on the new upcoming Half Life 2: Episode 1 expansion. I applaud Valve for incorporating a usuable HDR for both cards.... Bravo!

 

[John Reynolds]

I think HDR+AA is awesome, no matter what the HDR procedure. I can't wait until both Nvidia and Ati users can play with HDR+AA on the new upcoming Half Life 2: Episode 1 expansion. I applaud Valve for incorporating a usuable HDR for both cards.... Bravo!

Yea, I tend to prefer feature implementations that can be more broadly appreciated by the hardware/gaming community too. Developer support of HDR is still in its infancy and hopefully the DX10 parts from both companies are more robust (for lack of a better word off the top of my head).

 

[Apple740]

It's not up to Bethesda to spend time and money to code for a feature with a very small user base.

Like it or not Fallguy, history shows us that ATI only features are rarely adopted by developers.

If you want to refute this, please provide examples, because I sure don't remember ever thinking "Man, if only I had an ATI card I could use this cool tech in all my favorite games!". I've been buying gaming cards since there have BEEN gaming cards, and it seems to me nothing they've ever come up with really caught on.

Remember Tru-Form? Or how about that new super duper compression they had last gen?

FP HDR ain't an Ati feature, and FSAA neither. Both are here to stay. It's just that Ati is able to combine the two. And thnk God/Chuck they don't need dev support to enable it.

Current- or arriving in 2006 games with True HDR support using FP Blending:

Age of Empires III
Bet on Soldier
Bioshock
Brothers in Arms 3
Crysis
Duke Nukem Forever
Elvion
Far Cry (with patch 1.3 installed)
Far Cry Instincts: Predator
Gears of War
Huxley
Juiced (PC version only)
Kameo: Elements of Power
Lord of the Rings: Battle for Middle Earth
Lineage II (with Chronicle 4 updated)
Project Gotham Racing 3
Project Offset
Perfect Dark Zero
Serious Sam II
Starship Troopers
Stranglehold
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
TimeShift
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (PC version only)
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Double Agent (PC version and Xbox 360 version only)
Tomb Raider: Legend (PC version and Xbox 360 version only)
Unreal Tournament 2007
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_dynamic_range_rendering