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Hdr + Aa

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ShuttleLuv said:
It's a good thing to have - I mean why not? Have your cake and eat it too. :) But I find it really lame how Ati fans boast this to get people to go Ati. It's barely useable and when it is, it's crappy imho. It's a technology that, much like anti aliasing, will be perfected eventually and all card makers will use it and it'll run great. For now, it's like back in 2000 when Geforce 2 GTS owners would boast about using aa. Not completely necessary yet, but a cool feature nonetheless. ;)

Oblivion is one game...and a game I certainly wouldn't touch, so meh.
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Eh? barely useable??? It's fine with my x1800xl at 12*10 2xaaa 8xhqaf.
 
welshbloke said:
Eh? barely useable??? It's fine with my x1800xl at 12*10 2xaaa 8xhqaf.
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ati on top again ,

nvidia will pass this off as unimportant or insignificant , same as they did with unified shaders and the 3/1 shader ratio,

well , the 3/1 ratio is performing better then their hardware in the new games now and nvidia is making a unified shaders next gen cards,

ill bet you a $1000 it will have HDR+AA also
 
I think its #2,

How could they say the crap like (no card can support hdr+aa, and it would take too long to code). Im sorry I could of waited another 12 hours for better IQ then the xbox360.

Makes me wish i got an X1800, but that damn evga deal was too hard to pass up :) o well i still love my 7800gt and sli mobo

Shitty
 
the extra shaders don't seem to be producing that radical of a performance benefit in oblivion. If you notice the x1800 is doing quite well without them, pretty much pissing all over the 7900gt and in some cases even hanging with the gtx.
 
bobrownik said:
ati on top again ,

nvidia will pass this off as unimportant or insignificant , same as they did with unified shaders and the 3/1 shader ratio,

well , the 3/1 ratio is performing better then their hardware in the new games now and nvidia is making a unified shaders next gen cards,

ill bet you a $1000 it will have HDR+AA also
Click to expand...


They didn't pass over unified shaders and 3/1 ratio either. ATi's 3/1 rato is useless for the time being because as you can see with Oblivion even though shader computation is increasing faster then texture ops, other factors are bottlenecking thier cards, namely bandwidth and fillrates. So that 3 to 1 ratio isn't being fully utilized. ATi should use higher frequency memory then they did and that would have showed the 3 to 1 ratio in a better light. Added to this I'm pretty sure texture ops are getting the better of ATi cards in some areas in Oblivion also, so they do have to increase the number of TMU's for future generation cards. By the time shaders become a bottleneck over fillrates or bandwidth, these cards won't be able to run these shaders at any playable speeds.

nV went with a 2 to 1 ratio for their shader pipelines, and this is what started ATi on thier fat pipes, they saw the advantage nV had, and went the same route.

This generation ATi's performance edge comes with thier memory control and nothing else. Their performance lead is really only noticable with AA on in almost all games.
 
razor1 said:
This generation ATi's performance edge comes with thier memory control and nothing else. Their performance lead is really only noticable with AA on in almost all games.
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When shelling out the kinda of money the newest cards command, I should hope everyone who has one is running AA.
 
ivzk said:
When shelling out the kinda of money the newest cards command, I should hope everyone who has one is running AA.
Click to expand...


I'm not talking about who should buy what, seems to me, you have an insecurity about who is buy what though ;)
 
ivzk said:
When shelling out the kinda of money the newest cards command, I should hope everyone who has one is running AA.
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I'm not talking about who should buy what, seems to me, you have an insecurity about who is buy what though ;) . And they don't have a profound lead either only in 2 or 3 games ;)
 
phide said:
Not true at all. There's widespread information available on the TWIMTBP program, and it's clear you haven't been reading any of it.

Good Things are performance enhancing optimizations. Bad Things are issues with stability or rendering that are directly related to the renderer, nVidia drivers or nVidia hardware. This all falls under the TWIMTBP program.

I don't think the Chuck patch will have any impact on ATi sales, but I could be wrong.
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Performance enhancing optimizations are bad for every consumer. In Oblivion's case, TWIMTBP means then that the game was optimized specificaly for Nvidia hardware, but runs better with ATI cards? Partnerships such as these hurt us all. As far as Chuck's patch, it sure doesn't hurt ATI either. I wish the patch was universal and would work for Nvidia as well, or Nvidia supported this capability.
 
razor1 said:
I'm not talking about who should buy what, seems to me, you have an insecurity about who is buy what though ;) . And they don't have a profound lead either only in 2 or 3 games ;)
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Honestly I have no idea how you got what you did out of my response. Anyways good luck to you and your comprehension skills. ;)
 
Features are great, but from what I understand HDR + AA takes a massive performance hit, ok if you happen to have 2 crossfire cards. My overclocked 7800 GTX (256mb) has a hard time dealing with most proper HDR games (such as oblivion) with max settings and HDR, much less adding AA to the mix.

Im sure when single cards are sporting enough power to do both at the same time it will be added as a feature.

You can only cram so many features into each product cycle before you start to fall behind, i'd rather have ones I can actually use rather than ones only the top 0.5% (pure guess) of gamers with SLI can use
 
ivzk said:
Honestly I have no idea how you got what you did out of my response. Anyways good luck to you and your comprehension skills. ;)
Click to expand...

This generation ATi's performance edge comes with thier memory control and nothing else. Their performance lead is really only noticable with AA on in almost all games.
Click to expand...

ivzk said:
When shelling out the kinda of money the newest cards command, I should hope everyone who has one is running AA.
Click to expand...

ivzk said:
A fact or an ass fact? You be the judge.
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ivzk said:
Why don't you quote what i quoted in my post, my little pre-teen?! Don't pretend you're neutral. No community outreach invites are to be had that way.
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ivzk said:
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, as both the ATI and Nvidia do this. (6800NU and 6800LE with unlockable pipes should ring a prett loud bell here)
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this one is a bit harder to understand without the rest of the context, but you missed why ATi is making less money the last 2 years then they should have. Thats why you didn't understand where I was coming from.

Hmm is it my reading comphrension or your undieing affection for one IHV's products? If you have an ATi card good, thats great, great product, and good reason to say good things about them too I have nothing against that, but I wasn't trying to make a point on who should buy what I'm saying what facts I know about IHV's technologies thats it.
 
ivzk said:
razor1 said:
This generation ATi's performance edge comes with thier memory control and nothing else. Their performance lead is really only noticable with AA on in almost all games.
Click to expand...

When shelling out the kinda of money the newest cards command, I should hope everyone who has one is running AA.
Click to expand...

This is the original post which sent you on your rant.
Seems like you're implying that I'm implying something without ever actually implying it.
Which is cool. As long as we both understand that. ;)
 
Apple740 said:
Some Oblivion screenies with HDR/noAA vs HDR/4xAA, check the Fraps numbers right on top:

0xAA: http://members.chello.nl/h.appel1/obvc0xaa.jpg
4xAA: http://members.chello.nl/h.appel1/obvc4xaa.jpg

0xAA: http://members.chello.nl/h.appel1/obva0xaa.jpg
4xAA: http://members.chello.nl/h.appel1/obva4xaa.jpg
Click to expand...

The only thing that makes me sad is that even a 1900xtx can only get 33fps at 1280x1024 with HDR and 8xaf, and 29fps if you use 4xaa. (and of course there's no npc's or monsters on screen either) Sure is a lot of money to spend for that kind of performance. I think I'll just live in my non-HDR world until the performance vs cost improves. Although I'm hoping to see this feature pushed hard in future hardware cycles.
 
Coolmanluke said:
Performance enhancing optimizations are bad for every consumer. In Oblivion's case, TWIMTBP means then that the game was optimized specificaly for Nvidia hardware, but runs better with ATI cards?
Click to expand...

Again, this simply isn't true. Optimizations that do not degrade image quality are never bad for the consumer. nVidia needs a little help to get the numbers in this game, and some others, and those optimizations can make an impact. There are many ways to optimize renderers and shaders that A) Don't degrade image quality on one specific brand of GPUs and B) Don't degrade performance on other brands of GPUs.

It doesn't mean that Oblivion was optimized so that nVidia cards would run it better than ATi cards. For your theory to be correct, nVidia/Bethesda would have to add a load of garbage functions for ATi cards to process to bring its performance low enough so that a comparably priced nVidia card would actually come out the faster card. This is obviously not the case for Oblivion, as you stated.
 
Frosteh said:
Features are great, but from what I understand HDR + AA takes a massive performance hit, ok if you happen to have 2 crossfire cards. My overclocked 7800 GTX (256mb) has a hard time dealing with most proper HDR games (such as oblivion) with max settings and HDR, much less adding AA to the mix.
Click to expand...
Imagine if you could do it with AA too!

btw: I hate to break it to you but there is not a massive performance hit..........
 
I've got two X1800 XTs in Crossfire and I play the game at 1920x1200 with 4x AA, HDR, and 8x HQ AF enabled. Simply jaw-droppingly beautiful, the best graphics I've ever seen rendered real-time on my PC. And Oblivion isn't a shooter so anything close to 30fps is plenty smooth for me (heck, I can play regular single-player shooters at around 30-35fps so long as the frame rate stays fairly steady).
 
dderidex said:
To be fair, you'll notice from the "Chuck" interview, he is basically COMPLETELY changing how the driver handles the rendering in the game, presenting an option that was *not* accessible before.

huck @ ATI In a way. When I first read that Oblivion wouldn't initially support HDR+AA, I was shocked and disappointed.
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It sure doesnt look like they took the time to work with ATi to find out if it could, or could not be done. It didnt take ATi very long to get HDR+AA working. Did Bethesda even try? Who knows, it doesnt appear that they did. Its an NV stamped game, perhaps ATi didnt get to work nearly as closely as NV did.

One thing I do think ATi failed on, was having drivers ready for Crossfire and Oblivion. You shouldnt have to rename the .exe. I dont think there is any acceptable excuse, except if Bethesda did not let them test the game.

edit, moofasa probably countered better.
Click to expand...
 
fallguy said:
It sure doesnt look like they took the time to work with ATi to find out if it could, or could not be done. It didnt take ATi very long to get HDR+AA working. Did Bethesda even try? Who knows, it doesnt appear that they did. Its an NV stamped game, perhaps ATi didnt get to work nearly as closely as NV did.

One thing I do think ATi failed on, was having drivers ready for Crossfire and Oblivion. You shouldnt have to rename the .exe. I dont think there is any acceptable excuse, except if Bethesda did not let them test the game.

edit, moofasa probably countered better.
Click to expand...


Well if it was a dev rel thing, usually doesn't go to the driver team unless they absolutely have to (in this case certain techinques Oblivion is using arn't compatible with previous AA modes for HDR with ATi cards so in this case it wouldn't have gone to the drivers team, it was a problem that could have been fixed in software). Nearing the end of a project time line and going gold is not the time to be adding in new graphics features into thier game, they probably choose to spend the time on making sure the game was running solid.
 
razor1 said:
Well if it was a dev rel thing, usually doesn't go to the driver team unless they absolutely have to (in this case certain techinques Oblivion is using arn't compatible with previous AA modes for HDR with ATi cards so in this case it wouldn't have gone to the drivers team, it was a problem that could have been fixed in software). Nearing the end of a project time line and going gold is not the time to be adding in new graphics features into thier game, they probably choose to spend the time on making sure the game was running solid.
Click to expand...

blah habla blah blah ,

habla habla
 
bobrownik said:
wasn't your last nickname Rollo or something like that??
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How about yours? Want me to go back to your posts on Rage to show what kind of person you are? Oh wait you got banned here for that before behavior like that before didn't you :p . Your lucky at rage they are a bit more lienent with people like you who spew nothing out but garbage and insults.
 
razor1 said:
Well if it was a dev rel thing, usually doesn't go to the driver team unless they absolutely have to (in this case certain techinques Oblivion is using arn't compatible with previous AA modes for HDR with ATi cards so in this case it wouldn't have gone to the drivers team, it was a problem that could have been fixed in software). Nearing the end of a project time line and going gold is not the time to be adding in new graphics features into thier game, they probably choose to spend the time on making sure the game was running solid.
Click to expand...

Obviously you are going to believe Bethesda could not have added HDR+AA for ATi users, are in the free and clear. I do not. They are not dumb, working with ATi in my opinion would have brought it to light that ATi cards could do it, and NV's couldnt. Believe what you want, as will I.
 
razor1 said:
How about yours? Want me to go back to your posts on Rage to show what kind of person you are? Oh wait you got banned here for that before behavior like that before didn't you :p . Your lucky at rage they are a bit more lienent with people like you who spew nothing out but garbage and insults.
Click to expand...

my nickname hasnt changed ,

you can bring up all the posts you want , i dont have anything to hide ,

that wasnt the first forum i was banned from and it wont be the last ,

by the way im not currently banned from rage3d or any other forum

later rollo
 
bobrownik said:
my nickname hasnt changed ,

you can bring up all the posts you want , i dont have anything to hide ,

that wasnt the first forum i was banned from and it wont be the last ,

by the way im not currently banned from rage3d or any other forum

later rollo
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Oh no you were banned here and Rage, btw I'm not rollo ;) I'm quite a bit more informed then he is and you are similiar to him when it comes to information and the way you post aswell because you have no information and like to talk sh*t about nothing you know about (remember the tool post).
 
Mrwang said:
Interesting that Oblivion is an Nvidia stamped game, and it runs better with ATI hardware. Gamebranding sucks! An awful way to promote ones product at the expense of the consumer.
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there is a game called Half-Life 2 release a little while ago that was the same way vice versa :p
 
razor1 said:
I'm quite a bit more informed then ...
Click to expand...

i know , i was just admiring how much knowledge you have about the oblivion development and nvidias twimtbp crapware,

blah habla blah blah ,

habla habla
 
fallguy said:
One thing I do think ATi failed on, was having drivers ready for Crossfire and Oblivion. You shouldnt have to rename the .exe. I dont think there is any acceptable excuse, except if Bethesda did not let them test the game.
Click to expand...

I have a question.
Why is it that ATI's OpenGL rewrite of their driver only affected(I may be wrong?) 2 games?
And why is it that renaming an game .exe changes stuff?
I was lead to belive that ATI dosn't use "profiles" and that they bashed NVIDIA for it...but Now ATI also uses "profiles"...so is Catalyst A.I just a shorting for "ATI games profiles"?

Terra - Not trying to flame, just want the hard facts :)
 
I thought the whole idea of A.I. was to implement app specific optimizations, but also give the consumer the option of turning them off? This option is supposedly the difference, not that I ever turn it off.
 
I have a question.
Why is it that ATI's OpenGL rewrite of their driver only affected(I may be wrong?) 2 games?
And why is it that renaming an game .exe changes stuff?
I was lead to belive that ATI dosn't use "profiles" and that they bashed NVIDIA for it...but Now ATI also uses "profiles"...so is Catalyst A.I just a shorting for "ATI games profiles"?
Click to expand...

the OpenGL rewrite never made it live, they did put in the optimization for a certain engine, but i guess it spans over more games as well, either way, it affected Doom3, Quake4 and Riddick, some other OpenGL games to test? got me, those were the only three i believe were tested and saw gains

got me on that one as well, for some odd reason it works, maybe someway the driver pulls some resources out of its ass or something :confused:

it doesn't need profiles for both cards to work, but it still needs a profile for AFR to work which seems to be the only way to get tangible speed increases in CF currently, so i guess you can say it does, but we might see some stuff come up in the future where this might be beneficial
 
in the 4xSSAA screenshot all i notice is the bloom effect is on, i don't notice any AA being applied

edit: i'll take that back, i don't see ANYTHING being turned on except some blurred effect
 
bobrownik said:
i know , i was just admiring how much knowledge you have about the oblivion development and nvidias twimtbp crapware,

blah habla blah blah ,

habla habla
Click to expand...


I guess any thats not

" blah habla blah blah ,

habla habla"

is just too much for you.

Sometimes things are just over some peoples heads I understand ;) .
 
bobrownik said:
my nickname hasnt changed ,

you can bring up all the posts you want , i dont have anything to hide ,

that wasnt the first forum i was banned from and it wont be the last ,

by the way im not currently banned from rage3d or any other forum

later rollo
Click to expand...

Would you stop calling this guy "Rollo" already? If you have a problem with me, take it up with me in PMs, and leave this guy alone. :rolleyes:
 
fallguy said:
Obviously you are going to believe Bethesda could not have added HDR+AA for ATi users, are in the free and clear. I do not. They are not dumb, working with ATi in my opinion would have brought it to light that ATi cards could do it, and NV's couldnt. Believe what you want, as will I.
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I never said they were dumb, maybe thats the percepetion you had when they annouced they couldn't? Also remember they aren't using thier own engine. Code base for an engine that isn't made by ones self is hard enough to go in and modify (the learning curve just to make the game takes a year on an engine, foget about understanding the engine core itself). Its not a simple process. What I'm saying they can get it done, but they weighted time vs. money, and money won out. And how often does Bethsedha make patches for thier games? In the past I remember it took them quite some time, so its not likely they keep going after the code once it goes gold, so thats why they gave that explination, so they don't need to look into any more, most programmers are lazy, less work for more money thats pretty much it.
 
razor1 said:
I never said they were dumb, maybe thats the percepetion you had when they annouced they couldn't? Also remember they aren't using thier own engine. Code base for an engine that isn't made by ones self is hard enough to go in and modify (the learning curve just to make the game takes a year on an engine, foget about understanding the engine core itself). Its not a simple process. What I'm saying they can get it done, but they weighted time vs. money, and money won out. And how often does Bethsedha make patches for thier games? In the past I remember it took them quite some time, so its not likely they keep going after the code once it goes gold, so thats why they gave that explination, so they don't need to look into any more, most programmers are lazy, less work for more money thats pretty much it.
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Razor1 you define the word speculation? The fact is there is only one place to go if you want HDR+AA with Oblivion and its not with "The way it's meant to be played" logo on the box. Sadly, I made the wrong decision.
 
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