HDA Mystique Dolby Digital Encoding Card Info

Donnie27 said:
Pleae see what I said about not only Miles but Zoom as well. Notice I said DVD Like, not DVD, sheesh. UT2K3/4 though

Same 96KHz as HDA-M or did you miss that?

I know you can't read the whole thread, but that point was made 100's of post ago.

What they're calling encoding here is just what the hell Creative had me fooled on, namely NEO-6/Pro Logic II surround sound. Saying it can take a MP3 and CD-Audio turn it into Surround Sound is one thing and that's true. Trying to make that mean Discrete DVD Audio 5.1 is absolute BS=! Sure it can do Pro Logic like "Filtered surround", there's no damned way for it separate 2ch front to back and know where the hell those sounds should come from=P Again, you need a 5.1 source or you get something similar to Pro Logic 1, 2 or NEO-6, NOT Discrete true positional 5.1 for games or the sound effects that make up most game sound tracks. Trying to say otherwise is pure foolishness.

Buy 10 HDA-Ms and that FACT still will not change. That's like saying it will create true 5.1 an standard CD-Audio disk, it ain't goin' to happen. It can Expand, Pan, Delay and Matrix, nothing more, nothing less=P I've owned all the Audigys but the Aduigy4 and heard enough of the HDA-M to disagree with ya but to each his or her own.

Donnie27
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Wow just wow. Yes I know you can't turn a 2.0 into a discrete 5.1 source. I think everyone knows this. Although the DDL still does one of the best jobs (a hell of a lot better than that cmss crap I am forced to use) at emulating 2.0 audio into 5.1. You didn't have to waste our time by putting in a paragraph that repeats the same statement twelve times. Second, I am sorry that you wasted so much money on creative products, I owned two creative products and that's enough for me. Third, you claimed that all the HDA does in HL2 was pass the "raw data" over to the receiver, don't give me that back-sass after you have been proved wrong. I know you what you said about miles, you don't have to restate yourself (*shock* I can read). Just realize what you said was wrong. In addition, I know the HDA has 96khz too, you tried to make it seem that the creative was better because it did 192khz, I just pointed out this was only true in stereo mode.

Oh, and I had to add, there is a DOOM3 Patch
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Yeah I know, I also know about the beta driver (this is why I used doom3 as an example). Guess what? EAX 4 still sucks. Granted doom3 didn't sound as horrible as it did before 1.3, but by all means it's still very lacking. Nothing compared to HL2, which btw, sounds a lot better on a DDL card than an Audigy 2 ZS. While I appreciate you trying to educate me on audio, I think it would be best if you researched a bit more for yourself than posting incomplete threads on a website. But eh, to each to his own.
 
Donnie27 said:
I agree more than I disagree. When I was in the Army, us GIs liked many different Kinds of Music and the way that Music was reproduced. In the Frankfurt/RM Audio Club there were B&O, Klipsch, Denon, Phase Lenear and you name it. Many folks thought the high end stuff was a ripp-off. Many were just not use to true HiFi. Other were and they still like that lower end and mid ranged stuff.

I play my Audigy 2 ZS through an older Pioneer VSX-D711 and yes, I use 3 shielded L&R RCA cables and Digital 96KHz Stereo for 2 Ch Stereo Music, and Analog for DVD Audio. I have power DVD 6 Delux 6ch installed. Favaorite DVD Audio? A tie, Hotel California and Deep Purple's Machinehead.

IMHO, HDA-M is about $30 too expensive. Too bad the Audigy 2 ZS's SPDIF is limited to Pro Logic1 & 2 and NEO-6 and True RAW bypass is blocked.

Donnie27
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There is deffinitely plenty of rip offs. I am extremely happy with my setup, and through eBay, I got everything(except the velodyne cht10) for cheap prices. I could have easily spent way more at Fry's or Best Buy and had a "lesser" system.

I mainly wanted to point out that Hotel California is amazing, and Machinehead is utterly incredible. Just some of the best hard rock ever.
 
i currently have my z-5500 connected to my audigy 2 zs via digital coxial. when i watch dvds, the z-5500's receiver detects a dolby digital signal. how would this hda card be different?
 
itr said:
i currently have my z-5500 connected to my audigy 2 zs via digital coxial. when i watch dvds, the z-5500's receiver detects a dolby digital signal. how would this hda card be different?
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that is digital passthrough, its not ecoding anything. it is simply passing the raw AC3 bitstream to the reciver to be decoded. the HDA card will ENCODE signals, so, say, when one plays a game, the card will take all the analog channels that the game is outputting, encode it into a digital stream, and send it to the reciever to be decoded. it rocks.
 
lithium726 said:
that is digital passthrough, its not ecoding anything. it is simply passing the ram AC3 bitstream to the reciver to be decoded. the HDA card will ENCODE signals, so, say, when one plays a game, the card will take all the analog channels that the game is outputting, encode it into a digital stream, and send it to the reciever to be decoded. it rocks.
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are the only advantages for games then? i rarely game. =\ usually i only make use of dolby digital when watching dvds.
 
then its really of no use to you, the only thing you gain from dolby digital encoding is the ability to encode 2CH signals to 5.1CH signals, but i think it sounds better just as a 44.1khz PCM stream, unaltared.

on another note, IMO, this is the best quality sound card ive ever owned.
 
itr said:
are the only advantages for games then? i rarely game. =\ is the sound quality improved when watching dvds?
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No, it would be the same because both cards are simply passing the already ac3/dts encoded source (basically doing nothing) to the receiver to decode. Basically the HDA encodes everything into Dobly Digital 5.1, meaning if you have a source that is only 2.0 (mp3 or any video format not encoded with dts or ac3 like most .avi) or if the source is a game it will become Dolby Digital 5.1 (technically it won't be a true 5.1 source because you can't magically make something 2.0 to 5.1, but it will still sound amazing, and with games you will get the correct positioning too), and anything already encoded with ac3 or DTS it will just pass through to the receiver to decode so no sound quality is lost (what your audigy 2 zs does now).
 
Droban said:
There is deffinitely plenty of rip offs. I am extremely happy with my setup, and through eBay, I got everything(except the velodyne cht10) for cheap prices. I could have easily spent way more at Fry's or Best Buy and had a "lesser" system.

I mainly wanted to point out that Hotel California is amazing, and Machinehead is utterly incredible. Just some of the best hard rock ever.
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I've seen many of you guys' sweet assed systems and read those threads even when I don't post.

You got it! I've been on the long and short end of the stick when it comes to deals. My buds and I will buy and report up or down on hardware we get before the others do. I wouldn't have never purchased an Audigy2 after the bad taste Audigy 1 (rip-off) left me with. Told my buds to skip it! Had I not installed one in someone else's computer, I don't know if I would have ever spent another DIME on Creative anything.

I love Classsic Rock and the history behind some the songs. Just thinking of how Smoke On The Water was written on-the-fly like that blows me away. The Machinehead DVD Audio Disk has two Music Videos as well.

Donnie27
 
Moofasa~ said:
Wow just wow. Yes I know you can't turn a 2.0 into a discrete 5.1 source. I think everyone knows this.

Donnie to Moofasa said:
when I point out it needs a DDL source just like a Gas engine needs Gas, not water
Not true, DDL can encode all pc audio (including 2.0 sources like mp3's) into DD 5.1 on the fly
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Although the DDL still does one of the best jobs (a hell of a lot better than that cmss crap I am forced to use) at emulating 2.0 audio into 5.1.

Donnie27 said:
Go to any Sound Hardware forum now talking about CMSS/2 and Headphones?
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You didn't have to waste our time by putting in a paragraph that repeats the same statement twelve times. Second, I am sorry that you wasted so much money on creative products, I owned two creative products and that's enough for me. Third, you claimed that all the HDA does in HL2 was pass the "raw data" over to the receiver, don't give me that back-sass after you have been proved wrong. I know you what you said about miles, you don't have to restate yourself (*shock* I can read). Just realize what you said was wrong. In addition, I know the HDA has 96khz too, you tried to make it seem that the creative was better because it did 192khz, I just pointed out this was only true in stereo mode.


Yeah I know, I also know about the beta driver (this is why I used doom3 as an example). Guess what? EAX 4 still sucks. Granted doom3 didn't sound as horrible as it did before 1.3, but by all means it's still very lacking. Nothing compared to HL2, which btw, sounds a lot better on a DDL card than an Audigy 2 ZS. While I appreciate you trying to educate me on audio, I think it would be best if you researched a bit more for yourself than posting incomplete threads on a website. But eh, to each to his own.
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Yes and you didn't have to make that long post to keep BSing either LOL! HDA-M's control panal said use the Bypass feature that requires the processing to be done via the Receiver. You see, unlike you, I've played with one and listened to others. I understand what the hell Post and Pre Production Audio data is. When you get your card you will then understand.

192KHz is better than 96KHz, I simply said what I said. I didn't say it made Audigy better, you did. Again, I said they sounded about the same and HDA-M's best feature is 100% Bypass, not as you're trying to say and that's flat out wrong. You linked to the Dolbe Digital Live page trying to prove me wrong. All surround sound in is not true Discrete 5.1=P You said yes it can! I said it needed a 5.1 source, you said it didn't, am I missing something?

Now, was that short and to the point enough for ya'. BTW, the Audigy 2 and 2 ZS made me money. Folks heard mine, and had to have one. I lost count of how many I installed and how much money I made. ;)

Donnie27
 
itr said:
are the only advantages for games then? i rarely game. =\ usually i only make use of dolby digital when watching dvds.
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Use Power DVD 6 Deluxe, the 8ch edition. It does quite a bit with almost any 5.1 (Also 6 and 7.1) sound card and speaker.

http://www.gocyberlink.com/multi/products/product_main.jsp?ProdId=1&lang=ENU

THe $39.95 for the upgrade to those throw-away Power DVD 4 and 5 discs that come with almost every DVD R-RW and CD-R DVD Combo drive. Best $39 I ever spent on software.

Donnie27
 
Donnie27 said:
Use Power DVD 6 Deluxe, the 8ch edition. It does quite a bit with almost any 5.1 (Also 6 and 7.1) sound card and speaker.

http://www.gocyberlink.com/multi/products/product_main.jsp?ProdId=1&lang=ENU

THe $39.95 for the upgrade to those throw-away Power DVD 4 and 5 discs that come with almost every DVD R-RW and CD-R DVD Combo drive. Best $39 I ever spent on software.

Donnie27
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why would you use 3rd party software when WMP does the same thing? hes just outputting the AC3 stream, he doesnt have to decode it.
 
lithium726 said:
why would you use 3rd party software when WMP does the same thing? hes just outputting the AC3 stream, he doesnt have to decode it.
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Maybe because quite a few people delete wmp from their system because of its power consumption and opt for others such as winamp、foobar ect. In which case he made need that 3rd party software.
 
PsySabreW said:
Yep, all the cards have a defective mic input. I have it, my friends that own this card have it and a couple other people on this forum have reported it as well. Funny that not a lot people notice it tho, must not be a lot of gamers that use mics in here with this card.

2 things you can do:
1). set the volume to max on mic recording and turn on mic boost so people can barely hear you (and have lots of echo and distortion mixed in as well).
2). Pop in a spare audio card that has a properly working mic input (or use the onboard mic input) and use that for voice recording only. (Had to do that with my audigy1)
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Are they going to do anything to fix it??
 
lithium726 said:
why would you use 3rd party software when WMP does the same thing? hes just outputting the AC3 stream, he doesnt have to decode it.
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Power DVD 6 Deluxe is better software that WMP and better software can make more of an improvement than hardware in some cases. It was meant as just an idea only! I use WMP too. But I like DVD Audio as I said. It's acutally one of the few 3rd party software kits that takes FULL advantage of the Audigy2 ZS and A-4, it is also better for this task than Creative's own DVD-A player. Now folks with $30 x.1 cards can get the most out of those cards with this. This software also fully supports MLP, WMP doesn't unless they added it later on.

Donnie27
 
JL_Audio_User said:
Maybe because quite a few people delete wmp from their system because of its power consumption and opt for others such as winamp、foobar ect. In which case he made need that 3rd party software.
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Very true!

Donnie27
 
Donnie27 said:
Yes and you didn't have to make that long post to keep BSing either LOL! HDA-M's control panal said use the Bypass feature that requires the processing to be done via the Receiver. You see, unlike you, I've played with one and listened to others. I understand what the hell Post and Pre Production Audio data is. When you get your card you will then understand.

192KHz is better than 96KHz, I simply said what I said. I didn't say it made Audigy better, you did. Again, I said they sounded about the same and HDA-M's best feature is 100% Bypass, not as you're trying to say and that's flat out wrong. You linked to the Dolbe Digital Live page trying to prove me wrong. All surround sound in is not true Discrete 5.1=P You said yes it can! I said it needed a 5.1 source, you said it didn't, am I missing something?

Now, was that short and to the point enough for ya'. BTW, the Audigy 2 and 2 ZS made me money. Folks heard mine, and had to have one. I lost count of how many I installed and how much money I made. ;)

Donnie27
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Moofasa~ said:
Yes I know you can't turn a 2.0 into a discrete 5.1 source. I think everyone knows this. Although the DDL still does one of the best jobs (a hell of a lot better than that cmss crap I am forced to use) at emulating 2.0 audio into 5.1
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And in my opinion it's best feature is the DDL (any card can pass over preencoded source), not because it makes everything into true 5.1 (like I already stated, but appearantly you had a hard time comprehending), but because it does the best job at emutlating 5.1 from a non5.1 source. CMSS1,2, and stereo upmix on the A2ZS is horrible. I end up using a plugin from foobar to get better 5.1 positioning. I cleary wrote that it does the best job at emutlating 5.1 not that it creates a true 5.1, am I missing something?

Audigy 2 and 2ZS they can sample up to 192KHz while HDA-M is limited to 96KHz
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And yes you were trying to make it seem the A2ZS could sample higher than the HDA. Which you were wrong.

Next actually read my post before ranting with more misinfomation. Thanks.
 
i think Moofasa makes a good point that DDL is best at emulating 5.1. i've also listened to other sources of emulation (creative's CMSS and dolby prologic). DDL does a better job emulating 5.1 than those

however, i am still in limbo. i'm not sure if i should sell my audigy2zs or keep it. i have the TB Montego DDL and A2zs. Both have great things about them and I dont want to install both in my rig. I'm afraid it might create conflicts.

AH!!! @_@
 
Come on guys..... let's at least try to keep the senseless arguments on topic here ok?
 
Figured I would bump this thread back up....

With that being said I JUST recieved my new HDA card and must say for its price its most impressive :) Playback is excellent, and as far as software goes its simple yet very effective. Playback of MP3's does sound different (probably because I have to tweak the EQ a bit) but its overall decent.

As far as drivers go, well I had them cause a system crash twice (the new ones) I think it was just me switching between DDL and PCM way too much (Listening for which I liked more).

The only thing I dislike is the Stereo mix recording. In DDL mode the recording quality is very poor, and even in analog mode it takes some tweaking to get the sound levels sounding decent. Looks like my TurtleBeach card still dominates this category :p.

I just hope bluegears keeps up with driver releases to enable more user control (afterall this IS their first and only card, which I am very impressed upon its quality):)
 
Bluegears said that they are going to release new driver the end of this month. Good news...
 
for games, do you run them with hardware audio, or software??? I'm really confused :confused:
 
seems like some education should be given on sound technologies.

AC2:
A digital output that has two digital signals encoded

AC3:
A digital output that has 6 discrete channels of output. This is also marketed as Dolby Digital and DTS. Much more information can be found online as the difference between the two. It basically comes down to DD has a constant bandwidth and DTS has a varying bandwidth.

Dolby Digital EX:
Has a matrix channel for the 6.1 sound.

EAX 1 2 3 4.
Nothing more than a way to process sound

Direct3D:
Another way to process sound.

Dolby Digital Live:
Contrary to the belief, this is very important for people. It does NOT upgrade sound in any way. You will get the same sound provided you have 6 cables of analog sound runing to your receiver. DDL takes a direct sound stream and encodes it from an environment of placement audio to 6 discrete channels to be sent digitaly via AC3 format. The HDA does not pass through DDL content. It creates a DDL stream from positioned sound effects. The software of a sound card can also take a 2.0 stream and make it 5.1 This is not DDL no matter how it is marketed. DDL is simply the conversion of a direct3d sound stream into an AC3 format.

I realize this is the simplified way to explain this. By all means, if you want to bash this with technical stuff, fine. This is just the over all way it works. Give or take some.
 
WinMan_x2000 said:
Dolby Digital Live:
Contrary to the belief, this is very important for people. It does NOT upgrade sound in any way. You will get the same sound provided you have 6 cables of analog sound runing to your receiver.
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I have to disagree with you on that last part, although the rest of what you posted seems to be spot on.

You might be correct to say that it doesnt upgrade sound, but you are wrong to say that the analog sound will be just the same. Keep in mind that most receivers will have better DACs than the sound card, so you will in fact getting better sound from the receiver with digital connection than you would with the analog connections. So i guess you could conclude that while DDL doesnt upgrade sound, it also doesn't degrade sound like the analog connections on most sound cards would. So the end result is sound that seems to be better as a result of DDL.
 
bjornb17: that is all accurate except you seem to be forgetting something.
Dolby Digital is a lossy format. ;)
 
oh, i fully agree...... forgetting hardware losses etc...... you will get a better sound with DDL not because its DDL but its because the digital will not be as lossy as the analog
 
Mister X said:
bjornb17: that is all accurate except you seem to be forgetting something.
Dolby Digital is a lossy format. ;)
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HAHA, i notice the ";)" Mp3s are lossy too :) CDs are lossy too :)
 
Mister X said:
bjornb17: that is all accurate except you seem to be forgetting something.
Dolby Digital is a lossy format. ;)
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True, but the lossiness of the DDL format seems to yeild better results than the lossiness of sucky DACs :)
 
WinMan_x2000 said:
CDs are lossy too :)
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This is a point of contention for me, especially in regards to when people say that codec X is lossless for DVD-A, etc. I would say that for any given sample-rate, bitrate, and channel number, if the format can be decompressed to be identical to the digital master, then it is lossless. This would mean that FLAC is lossless for all formats, CDA is lossless, MLP likewise. Otherwise, you basically concede that all formats are inferior to vinyl.
 
Lol, any "artificial" sound is lossy, no speakers in the world can reproduce sounds as they are heard in nature. :D
 
I want to ask a question too :)

If I listen to a 2 channel mp3 will the hda encode this as 2 channel pcm or 5.1dd?
I don't want the sound card to do anything with the sound, just encode to 5.1 if the sound source has more than 2 channels. If there is surround sound in a game I want 5.1 but if I listen to 2 channel music I want pcm.
 
woel said:
I want to ask a question too :)

If I listen to a 2 channel mp3 will the hda encode this as 2 channel pcm or 5.1dd?
I don't want the sound card to do anything with the sound, just encode to 5.1 if the sound source has more than 2 channels. If there is surround sound in a game I want 5.1 but if I listen to 2 channel music I want pcm.
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You can switch modes back and forth. If you have DDL enabled it will convert your 2.0 sources (like mp3s) into 5.1. All you have to do is go in the drivers and switch to pcm when you listen to music, then back to DDL when you play games.
 
Allright so heres the question I have been wondering. Is it better to use analog outputs or use a SPDI/F output(personally I am using RCA cable (not optical))?

Opinions?
 
Hey, Ive read through most forums on this whole DDL technology and I may have a little insight on a couple topics. I emailed bluegears after reading a couple reviews and a technician, Jay Heo emailed me back. Heres a copy of the email:

Dear Mathew,



Thank you for your interest in our sound card. I hope that our following answers for your questions will help you understand our product much better.



1.) When in ddl mode, the analog outputs are disabled. Does this mean that the analog signal is being converted back to digital; or is there a solid digital signal going through the card with no analog conversions when in ddl mode?



DDL converts Stereo signal into AC3. Therefore, you are right to say that there is a solid digital going through the card with no analog conversions when in DDL mode.



2.) Is the ddl encoded on chip (hardware) or thorugh sofware



That’s through software but as you know, many reviewers wrote that there is no significant CPU usage when using our soundcard.



Thank you very much and if you have any further question, feel free to contact me.



Best Regards,





Jay Heo

BlueGears, Inc.


~I also sent out another email asking whether the opamps were bipassed in ddl mode, I read in NV's review that the analog was shut off, therefor it must convert dolby from the analog converted stream...lets see what he says, this is the deciding factor whether I buy this card or not! :eek:
 
Bluegears even put the nvnews review on their website: http://www.bluegears.com/

This is what nv says: "A quick note here - when in Dolby Digital Live mode, the analog ouputs are disabled. This may give insight into how the system work, as it would seem reasonable that the analog signals are rerouted from the discrete channel outputs into the hardware encoder. This is the basis for one of the complaints audio purists have with DDL. You have to add another analog to digital conversion, there by inducing some compression loss."

"If you have a truly amazing home theater, you may be able to detect that the process of digital to analog back to digital may have a slight weakness."

I dont know why bluegears would put this nvnews review on their website, its making this card look bad...

Anyone know if this is true??
 
sonicfrequency:
thomase made it clear before you even asked that question. :p
The card does not convert the audio from digital to analog and then reconvert it back to digital and encode it.
NV didn't know what they were talking about. :p
As far as the opamps being turned off thing goes..... no they are not turned off but they do not have a signal passed to them in DDL mode.
(ddl mode uses an entirely different output on the "dsp")
 
This is what I read from newegg.


I currently own a XX Audigy 2zs, X-Fi and now this card. I have owned in the past Nvidia Soundstorm, XX Audigy and Live etc. and this sound card beats all of them in movies and music. The X-Fi is a great card too but the Dobly Digital live is what put this card over the X-Fi. I'm using the optical cable going to my Logitech Z680 speakers... I have used this setup before on the Nvidia Soundstorm but this card is better then Soundstorm!

Gaming wise the X-Fi might be better due to its EAX 4.0/5.0 support. But EAX just adds reverb. Sometimes it distorts the sound; with this card you get crisp and clean sounds. Performance is about 2-3% slower in games due to DDL but the sound quality is worth it. If you have a receiver this card is a must. If you are using analog cables the X-Fi should be fine for you. Right now there are not a lot of games that use EAX 4.0 and 5.0. BF2 being one of them, on the X-Fi the reverb and effects were nice. But I personally enjoy the cleaner sound of this card on BF2.

If you’re an audiophile then this card is for you. Using Nvidia’s DVD Decoder in Dolby Digital DTS mode was absolutely astonishing. It was the first time in front of my computer that I actually felt like I was in a theater. Using high end headphones like Sennheiser you don’t hear any crackles like the Audigy cards. If sound quality is what is important to you then this is your card.
 
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