Hardware Unboxed Calls NVIDIA DLSS "The Biggest RTX Fail of Them All"

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by cageymaru, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    Hardware Unboxed has released its newest video where they dissect the image quality of Battlefield V with the new NVIDIA technology called Deep Learning Super Sample (DLSS) enabled. They not only compare the DLSS image quality to the native 4K image; Tim takes it a step further and compares the DLSS image to an 1685p upscaled 78% resolution scale image. They chose 1685p because it performs at a similar frame rate as when DLSS is enabled in-game.

    In all instances, the DLSS image looks to be a smeared image and the 1685p upscaled 78% resolution scale image is much more pleasing to look at. Tim Schiesser says, "The 1685p image destroys the DLSS image in terms of sharpness, texture quality, clarity; basically everything." He goes on to say, "The 78% scaled image preserves the fine detail on the rocks, the sign, the sandbags, the cloth, the gun; pretty much everywhere. With DLSS everything is blurred to the point where this detail is lost." Resolution scaling has been available to gamers for decades. They hold back no punches and say, "DLSS sucks."

    But the real kicker is looking at the visual quality comparisons. We'll start with native 4K versus 4K DLSS. Across all of the scenes that I've tested, there is a severe loss of detail when switching on DLSS. Just look at the trees in this scene. The 4K presentation is just as you'd expect; sharp, clean, high detail on both the foliage and trunk textures. But DLSS is like a strong blur filter has been applied. Texture detail is completely wiped out. In some cases it's like you've loaded a low texture mode. While some of the fine branch detail has been blurred away, or even thickened in some cases. Which makes the game look kinda weird in some situations. Of course this is to be expected. DLSS was never going to supply the same image quality as native 4K while also providing a 37% performance uplift. That would be pretty much black magic. But the quality difference comparing the two is almost laughable at how far away DLSS is from the native presentation in these stressful areas.
     
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  2. Mchart

    Mchart 2[H]4U

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    It's really bad in BFV.

    It's the better choice in Metro, however.

    I think the reason it looks so bad in BFV is just that there are more variables that can change. While moving in particular it just looks horrible.

    In Metro, it actually does a great job, and basically looks like TAA is enabled - But you get a decent performance boost, and you don't get the loss in detail of distant objects that normal scaling brings.
     
  3. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Just a heads up, they are a known biased anti nVidia web site. Not a place you want to get your information or news from.
     
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  4. Kor

    Kor 2[H]4U

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    The final image using DLSS really is appalling when stacked up against a simple upscale.
     
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  5. trick0502

    trick0502 [H]ardness Supreme

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    I don’t know if they are or aren’t, but they’re right. Dlss sucks. It is shaping up to be a big fail.
     
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  6. Evil Scooter

    Evil Scooter [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yup... really looks like shit on a stick vs. the upscale.
     
  7. Nightfire

    Nightfire [H]ard|Gawd

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    Based on who? You and a few reddit users? The test was very objective and straight forward.

    Besides, this was not anti-Nvidia, but anti DLSS. Clearly, it is your bias showing.

    They have had similar conclusions on the RTX cards as everyone else and was subjectively more critical of R7 than most.
     
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  8. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Not really, as nVidia has said, the A.I. improves DLSS over time. So if something in a constant state of change and improvement, still in the race, it cannot possibly fail. So no, DLSS is not a fail. Now, if you want to talk about AMD Radeon, then the word "fail" would be much more appropriate to use.

    I am sure after today, nVidia and EA make sure those results are gone from the game.
     
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  9. polonyc2

    polonyc2 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    DLSS looks awful in Battlefield and Metro: Exodus...total FXAA smear...there are tons of screenshots online comparing it...it's no coincidence that DLSS was introduced at the same time as ray-tracing...the only benefit of DLSS is it lessens the huge performance hit of RTX...that's it
     
  10. Aireoth

    Aireoth 2[H]4U

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    You do realize that nVidia marketed this and rtx as easy to implement and that it just works. You chose to gobble up their current market speak while ignoring past.

    I bought a 2080ti but I know rtx and dlss are going to be hot garbage for this generation.
     
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  11. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

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    HAHAHA wow.

    Just to give you guys a background, what Mr. SFD is talking about is this: They showed an RX570 is faster than a 1050Ti (which was never a revolutionary idea) and now all the Nvidiots think they were biased and only "show AMD in the best light" even though the 1050Ti is, on average, 20% more expensive than the RX570. But because they didn't show the RX570 against the 1060 3GB, (which is much, MUCH more expensive, yet it still performs on par with) they are "anti-Nvidia AMD shills".

    Hardware Unboxed has always been Pro-facts. And the FACT is that DLSS is a flop.
     
  12. mbelue

    mbelue Limp Gawd

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    Yeah but at least you have the fastest consumer GPU to console yourself with.(y)
     
  13. Azphira

    Azphira [H]ard|Gawd

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    I didn't buy a 2080ti for rtx or dlss. I bought it so 1080 SLI could kiss my ass.
     
  14. jnemesh

    jnemesh [H]ard|Gawd

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    Once again, Nvidia serves up shit and calls it steak...
     
  15. Patton187

    Patton187 Gawd

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    Meh, I think most people here understand that RTX gen 1 is kind of a stop gap.
     
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  16. Nightfire

    Nightfire [H]ard|Gawd

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    You mention "special" twice. Very big of you.

    Being against a certain nVidia technology does not make you anti-Nvidia. I suppose [H] would be anti-nvida for its critical assessment of RTX in BFV.

    You seem to be lashing out big time here for no apparent reason other than your maturity.
     
  17. Aireoth

    Aireoth 2[H]4U

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    Why else would you buy a GPU?
     
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  18. Nexus6

    Nexus6 Limp Gawd

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    You are a very special kind of forum goer.
     
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  19. oldmanbal

    oldmanbal [H]ard|Gawd

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    Cause side by side comparissons can't be trusted XD
     
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  20. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ard as it Gets

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    No, what they are is anti-bs. Hardware Unboxed doesn’t hold back on their opinions and tells it how it is.
     
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  21. chameleoneel

    chameleoneel 2[H]4U

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    Looks bad in metro, based on videos I watched.
     
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  22. Eymar

    Eymar Limp Gawd

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    Wow look at the 4k vs 4k DLSS and 1685p Upscaled vs 4k DLSS at the highlight time(5:26), the quality difference is laughable. Come on Nvidia you're better than this. Hopefully the DLSS implementations get better otherwise Nvidia has better use of their manpower.
     
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  23. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    Everyone knows that every site that doesn't shower praise on my favorite brand, even at their worst, is anti-that brand and a shill for the competition :p
     
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  24. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    lol, this + beer :)
     
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  25. ecuador

    ecuador Limp Gawd

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    As a computer scientist with a couple of decades of experience in the field, one simple thing I can say is when you see something being marketed as "AI powered", it is 100% a marketing gimmick. It is the same algorithms we've had for decades, with their known limitations running on much faster consumer hardware. They were not usually called "AI" until relatively recently, as computer scientists tended to reserve that term for other things like "hard AI" etc, but they were the same algorithms, there hasn't been any drastic advancement. Consumer hardware is much faster so you can try algorithms, ML etc which you couldn't before on such devices, but they are definitely not "magic" and not "smart" in the sense that marketing tries to imply.

    If you want more specifically to talk about DLSS for example, I read in some places that it is "Deep Learning" which means that it will become better and better as it is "learning". Ehhh, yeah, that's not how it works at all. A DL system can improve if you can give it more training data closely related to your scenarios, but with ever diminishing returns (imagine a classic asymptotic). We've got to believe DLSS is already trained quite a bit on a title like BFV, so it it is near the max you are going to get anyway - training with different data sets (e.g other games) will not help. To get any significant improvements, humans have to actually change/tweak/etc the DL algorithm they designed for DLSS and make it better (as they'd do with any other kind of algorithm). And I guess it is possible the current implementation is nowhere near the best they can come up with and DLSS could potentially work some day. But it definitely will not get much better by itself, by somehow "learning".
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
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  26. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    So does DLSS take memory? How much if the case?

    Neural net to what? Itself or is that just marketing speak/hogwash that Nvidia is pulling out of their . . .?

    So far DLSS is the worst option for AA - I would call it a failure. . . Hopefully NVidia can add some magic to it to improve it some. After 6+ months and this is the best they can do? Does not look too promising.

    The restrictions is all telling as well as to the limitation of the tensor core ability - 2080 Ti won't be able to do lower resolutions - because DSLL would actually slow it down, same reason restricted to RTX - So a AA method that not only blurs but if used by itself or at lower resolutions would significantly hurt performance. lol. I would call that a fail. What developer will go for that in the future? Nvidia better be willing to pay some big shrill money out.
     
  27. Kyle_Bennett

    Kyle_Bennett Editor-in-Chief HardOCP Staff Member

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    The personal sniping is about to get some folks banned in a special kind of way.
     
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  28. trick0502

    trick0502 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Since this is a dlss thred, I bet it’s a blurry line they crossed
     
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  29. Kyle_Bennett

    Kyle_Bennett Editor-in-Chief HardOCP Staff Member

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    Doing Lots of Screen Smearing.png
     
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  30. _mockingbird

    _mockingbird Gawd

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    Well, Hardware Unboxed is right
     
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  31. russnuck

    russnuck Gawd

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    They created a game specific upscaler and added some buzz words. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that, they should stop blowing smoke up peoples' back sides.

    Definitely Like a Shit Sandwich
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  32. knowom

    knowom Limp Gawd

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    I'm going to call DLSS by it's real name the soap opera effect.
     
  33. Nanogrip

    Nanogrip Limp Gawd

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    If I want DLSS on any hardware for free without framerate loss, I would just put on wrong prescription eye glasses.
     
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  34. Mchart

    Mchart 2[H]4U

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    It could depending on what video you watched, and if that video fairly compared it to setting shader scaling to around the 60-70% mark.

    With shader scaling set to a value that gives similar performance gains @ 4k - I personally think DLSS looks better.

    But in BFV it absolutely is trash. It's not worth using at all. Not to mention raytracing sucks in BFV as well as it's only for reflections, not global illumination like Metro.
     
  35. Mchart

    Mchart 2[H]4U

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    DLSS doesn't have a frame rate loss. It gives a substantial FPS boost somewhere near the 30-50% mark.
     
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  36. Nightfire

    Nightfire [H]ard|Gawd

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    Not sure about this game but another site recorded 250 MB more vram using 4k DLSS over 4k native (edit: in Metro). When compared to 1440p native, a closer visual comparison, it was about 1 GB more.

    Not sure if system memory was affected.
     
  37. N4CR

    N4CR 2[H]4U

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    It works better but still relatively mediocre in a tunnel shooter and a canned benchmark, wow! It's almost as if machine learning takes lots of effort to 'just work' in easy scenarios..
     
  38. N4CR

    N4CR 2[H]4U

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    Compared to up-res, yes it does. For similar fps it looks worse.
    That's a fail.
     
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  39. Denpepe

    Denpepe Gawd

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    You have to give new stuff some time to get implemented correctly, like with DX12 async compute, all new AAA games use that to magnificent results these days, right? … right?
     
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  40. Mchart

    Mchart 2[H]4U

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    Again, i've switched between it in Metro on my own system and DLSS absolutely looks better compared to 60% scaling.

    In BFV though it looks -terrible-. To the point that they should have just scrapped the feature.
     
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