Half Million Dollar Abstinence Simulator

Zarathustra[H];1036009826 said:
Noone is sayoing that abstinence is bad, only that abstinence only education is completely ineffective.

Teenagers are notoriously rebellious and do stuff they are not supposed to anyway, even before you add in the extreme hormonal sex drives during puberty.

Essentially, as much as we may not like it, teenagers are going to ahve sex either way, so it's better to teach them about how to protect themselves, than to to teach them abstinence which they are not going to obide by anyway.
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To me, that's more like saying "Try not to have sex, but if you do have sex, do this." That sort of instruction doesn't go over well human psychology. This is similar to teaching kids to pirate software: "People are going to pirate stuff. Don't do it. But if you do it, don't go to limeware but use torrents instead. It's a little safer. Here's how you can use torrents...." and then we can rationale it as "people are going to pirate anyways, might as well teach them the proper use so that their computers and our school computers don't get infected." Obviously we don't need to be teaching safer piracy habits when teaching intro to computer 101 classes. It will only lead to more piracy.

Before the 60's there were fewer teen pregnancies and STD's. They must have done something right. Of course some kids are going to do it anyways, but reduction of STD's and teen pregnancies can done without showing kids how to put on a condom. That just makes the kids go even crazier than before. It only helps kids think that teen sex is supposed to be a normal occurrence. Reduction in STD's and teen pregnancies happen when there is a reduction in sex in general.
 
Maybe we should just teach people how to drive and do with seatbelts and airbags.


oh wait, that's not going to happen any more than abstinence is.
 
Rofl-Mic-Lofl said:
Maybe we should just teach people how to drive and do with seatbelts and airbags.


oh wait, that's not going to happen any more than abstinence is.
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Maybe we should just teach people how to drive with a condom on.

oh wait, that's not going to happen any more than abstinence is. :p
 
Dang, my witty comment totally backfired since I left out a word. "Do away with.."
 
Does it use a RBG Random Boner Generator? Abstinence does not work. Giving condoms and teaching safe sex does. And that having babies is a financial burden. They should teach people how to have responsible and safe sex rather than talk about sex as a negative thing. Cause sex is good! babies are bad. I;m thinking of the movie Zardoz. The gun is good and the penis is evil! :eek:
 
Parmenides said:
To me, that's more like saying "Try not to have sex, but if you do have sex, do this." That sort of instruction doesn't go over well human psychology. This is similar to teaching kids to pirate software: "People are going to pirate stuff. Don't do it. But if you do it, don't go to limeware but use torrents instead. It's a little safer. Here's how you can use torrents...." and then we can rationale it as "people are going to pirate anyways, might as well teach them the proper use so that their computers and our school computers don't get infected." Obviously we don't need to be teaching safer piracy habits when teaching intro to computer 101 classes. It will only lead to more piracy.

Before the 60's there were fewer teen pregnancies and STD's. They must have done something right. Of course some kids are going to do it anyways, but reduction of STD's and teen pregnancies can done without showing kids how to put on a condom. That just makes the kids go even crazier than before. It only helps kids think that teen sex is supposed to be a normal occurrence. Reduction in STD's and teen pregnancies happen when there is a reduction in sex in general.
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where is your proof that showing kids how to use birth control makes them "go crazier than before" bullshit statement. man you could be a right wing politician with all those "facts" you bring to the table.

you do realize that the culture of the 1960s was a direct reaction to the repression of the 1950s? people got tired of that weak ass shit. its not like no one had sex during the 50s anyway, they just didnt talk about it. and aids didnt exist in the 50s either, if it had none of us would exist because no one used condoms back then and sex was so taboo that they probably wouldnt even have realized the method of transmission.

teen sex IS a normal occurrence. it is programed into our DNA, our culture has tried to force us to wait because we realize that we are not responsible enough at that age to provide for children, however biologically speaking that is the time that our bodies want us to reproduce and trying to get kids not to do it is like trying to stop gravity.

the real problem is kids not having access to birth control/protection and not knowing how to use it. sex isnt the issue, pregnancy and diseases are.

save the puritanical bullshit for every other sunday when you are pretending to be a good christian.
 
Parmenides said:
To me, that's more like saying "Try not to have sex, but if you do have sex, do this." That sort of instruction doesn't go over well human psychology. This is similar to teaching kids to pirate software: "People are going to pirate stuff. Don't do it. But if you do it, don't go to limeware but use torrents instead. It's a little safer. Here's how you can use torrents...." and then we can rationale it as "people are going to pirate anyways, might as well teach them the proper use so that their computers and our school computers don't get infected." Obviously we don't need to be teaching safer piracy habits when teaching intro to computer 101 classes. It will only lead to more piracy.

Before the 60's there were fewer teen pregnancies and STD's. They must have done something right. Of course some kids are going to do it anyways, but reduction of STD's and teen pregnancies can done without showing kids how to put on a condom. That just makes the kids go even crazier than before. It only helps kids think that teen sex is supposed to be a normal occurrence. Reduction in STD's and teen pregnancies happen when there is a reduction in sex in general.
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"Try not to have sex but if you do, use one of these" is a perfectly valid approach to limiting the transmission of STDs and unwanted pregnancies. It works. You seem to be arguing against sex itself, instead of arguing about what we can do to limit the negative consequences of doing it prematurely. Kids are going to have sex, it's what humans are here to do. In light of that fact, it's societies responsibility to make sure that when they do they are as well prepared to preempt or deal with those unfortunate consequences as possible. Saying "NO don't do that!" doesn't work. If it did, most of us wouldn't be here today.
 
Going through the Catholic school system (10-15 years ago), I got to experience some of their brand abstinence sex-"education." The bulk of the lecture revolved around attempting to invoke fear and distrust of the condom, while offering other half-truths in an attempt to make the kids see a particular side.

Personally I think this was counter productive to their cause, as anyone with a mind of their own will see tend to see when an educator is teaching something not with the agenda to inform and educate (so that you can make more informed and educated decisions), but to overtly influence your decision making in a particular direction.
 
The question isn't how do you stop young adults from having sex. You can't. Not unless you drug them to stop hormones and delay puberty. And no, you aren't allowed to do that. (I hope)

The question is what is the best course of action to prevent kids from making mistakes that will follow them the rest of their lives. There is only one solution. Education. I realize this is the opposite of how most religions operate, but at this point in a teens life (16+?) you can't keep them on a leash, you have to give them as much education and guidance as you're capable of and allow them to come to their own conclusion. Abstinence only education like sticking your head in the sand and shouting, "I'm not listening, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

The problem for teens is not that they are having sex. Sex is a wonderful thing. (Understatement of the year) The worst thing a teen who is informed and using protection is going to do is f their brains out and tire of having sex for the sake of immediate gratification. You know what happens after that? Instead of having a relationship for the sex, you have a relationship because you enjoy the company of the person.

The problem is teens are getting pregnant and are exposing themselves to STDs. These mistakes last a lifetime. Parents are afraid of their teenage kids making decisions that will stay with them the rest of their lives. And don't give me that shit about having a baby is never a mistake. If you have a baby while you're a teen, you've made a big mistake. For the sake of the baby, put them up for adoption or for the sake of your health, don't have the baby at all.
 
In all of this I don't think I have heard the primary reason kids are having sex before they are emotionally or financially ready to bear the consequences, beside our society that glamorizes sex, drugs, and violence..
They are drunk or high. Too smashed to remember to use a condom. Too drunk and stupid to say no to the dweeb they would never give the time of day to sober. And sometimes, too drunk to even remember what happened last night, or why her panties are missing. Don't worry, everybody at school will tell her about it on Monday.
 
Parmenides said:
To me, that's more like saying "Try not to have sex, but if you do have sex, do this." That sort of instruction doesn't go over well human psychology. This is similar to teaching kids to pirate software: "People are going to pirate stuff. Don't do it. But if you do it, don't go to limeware but use torrents instead. It's a little safer. Here's how you can use torrents...." and then we can rationale it as "people are going to pirate anyways, might as well teach them the proper use so that their computers and our school computers don't get infected." Obviously we don't need to be teaching safer piracy habits when teaching intro to computer 101 classes. It will only lead to more piracy.

Before the 60's there were fewer teen pregnancies and STD's. They must have done something right. Of course some kids are going to do it anyways, but reduction of STD's and teen pregnancies can done without showing kids how to put on a condom. That just makes the kids go even crazier than before. It only helps kids think that teen sex is supposed to be a normal occurrence. Reduction in STD's and teen pregnancies happen when there is a reduction in sex in general.
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WELL IT'S JUST LIKE BEING YOU SHOULDN'T MURDER SOMEONE BUT IF YOU ARE, HERE'S THE BEST WAY TO DO IT.

This is why analogies are fucked and anyone who uses one should be banned. Why are you comparing sex to software piracy?
 
GORANKAR said:
In all of this I don't think I have heard the primary reason kids are having sex before they are emotionally or financially ready to bear the consequences, beside our society that glamorizes sex, drugs, and violence..
They are drunk or high. Too smashed to remember to use a condom. Too drunk and stupid to say no to the dweeb they would never give the time of day to sober. And sometimes, too drunk to even remember what happened last night, or why her panties are missing. Don't worry, everybody at school will tell her about it on Monday.
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I don't think it has anything to do with drugs or alcohol or society.

Yes, drugs and alcohol impair judgement, and society tends to overtly over-sex things, but quite frankly, the drive to have sex is one of the most powerful in human nature, especially during the teen years when all those hormones are going through the body.

With or without alcohol, drugs or societal pressures, teenagers are programmed by nature to have sex, and to have it as much as they possibly can. With the more mature of them, it may be possible to reason with them to the point where they abstain, but if presented with an opportunity, even the most mature and steadfast teenager may be unable to resist the temptation, let alone the more troubled ones. Unless a parent never lets them out of their sights at allfor the entirety of their teenage years, or gives them some sort of anti-hormonal treatment (which stunts puberty) abstinence teaching is always going to be completely ineffective.

Don't marginalize the problem either. It's not "a small minority" of kids who are having sex. Most mid to upper teenagers are. It doesn't matter if they live in religious communities or come from religious families or not. Studies show that abstinence education has no impact at all on teenage sexual behaviors. i read a study a while back that compared the behaviors of kids taught abstinence, and kids given safe sex education, and there was no difference in the abstinence rate at all between the groups. All the relifgious background and abstinence only education did was make the kids ill prepared for when they encountered those situations, and thus less likely to use protection.

It's no coincidence that teen pregnancy and STD rates are higher in communities that teach abstinence only than in communities that teach safe sex. Bristol Palin is a great example here...

Abstinence only education is simply completely ignorant and completely disregards human nature and how the minds of teenagers work. It does not work now, it never has worked, and it never will work. The only difference is that in religious communities that teach abstinence only the topic is more taboo so it gets talked about less. This doesn't mean th eproblem is any smaller. It's the equivalent to putting your fingers in your ears and screaming "lalalala I can't hear you" on the teen pregnancy/std issue.
 
I keep hearing the "kids are going to do it anyways" argument. Of course many will! But that number can, and has been curbed. Not everyone is going to do it anyways. Plenty of societies have been better about curbing that number. Besides, I think the data is that the majority don't have sex as teenagers. The numbers certainly are down from the 90's.

Outside of sex, self control and discipline is what determines the success of a career. Humans are made to resist their urges. Yeah, I'm sure everyone has resisted the urge to steal something. I guess that's why kids are growing up to be brats today, their parents aren't teaching them to resist their urges to lie, cheat, and steal among other things.

A faithful partner is always resisting their biological urge for sex. That's humanity. You can't screw everything that moves. Humans have higher brain functions that go beyond basic "lizard" level instinct.

herfalerf said:
where is your proof that showing kids how to use birth control makes them "go crazier than before" bullshit statement. man you could be a right wing politician with all those "facts" you bring to the table.

you do realize that the culture of the 1960s was a direct reaction to the repression of the 1950s? people got tired of that weak ass shit. its not like no one had sex during the 50s anyway, they just didnt talk about it. and aids didnt exist in the 50s either, if it had none of us would exist because no one used condoms back then and sex was so taboo that they probably wouldnt even have realized the method of transmission.

teen sex IS a normal occurrence. it is programed into our DNA, our culture has tried to force us to wait because we realize that we are not responsible enough at that age to provide for children, however biologically speaking that is the time that our bodies want us to reproduce and trying to get kids not to do it is like trying to stop gravity.

the real problem is kids not having access to birth control/protection and not knowing how to use it. sex isnt the issue, pregnancy and diseases are.

save the puritanical bullshit for every other sunday when you are pretending to be a good christian.
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Teen pregnancy is "normal" now too. Whereas it was very rare before. And by the way, the majority of teens don't have sex.

Plenty of abstinence programs have worked very well. Other abstinence programs that only gave attention to kids before high school didn't work so well. The one linked by Steve seems like it might be a big waste of money. Most kids that are going to have sex already know the details. They know about condoms. They make jokes about them. My sex ed was sitting in classes with kids and hearing the chatter. I didn't need to learn anything from a teacher when she taught sex ed. I don't remember learning anything from that teacher, except that a classmate discovered that condoms make good balloons. If I did learn anything from a teacher I actually learned about the purpose and use of a condom from listening to abstinence only stuff (in a later class), and how it condoms aren't a guarantee. The teacher didn't need to show us how to put it in. If a teacher was going to let the kids in on the details, a teacher would only would serve to validate them: "Go have fun kids." If you ever work with teenagers, instructions tend to be ignored anyways. They only listen to what is said between the lines. If you taught teenagers in any capacity, you would know. Only the 'good' kids listen. The others are looking for the funny details. If the kid was already going to be careful AND put in the condom the right way, I'm sure he rarely got it from the teacher. Most already know about it. The rest are already on the path to abstinence anyways if the teacher wouldn't validate them with the implicit, "Have safe fun kids!" Condom education or no condom education, more sex = more side effects.

Condoms are like loaded guns. You wouldn't want to look down the barrel of a loaded gun, even when the finger isn't on the trigger. But gun failure is less likely than condom failure.

Abstinence programs also can provide the foundation for personal responsibility and enduring commitment. When the next generation of kids don't live with a daddy, they tend to go to the streets.

Hamish Campbell said:
"Try not to have sex but if you do, use one of these" is a perfectly valid approach to limiting the transmission of STDs and unwanted pregnancies. It works. You seem to be arguing against sex itself, instead of arguing about what we can do to limit the negative consequences of doing it prematurely. Kids are going to have sex, it's what humans are here to do. In light of that fact, it's societies responsibility to make sure that when they do they are as well prepared to preempt or deal with those unfortunate consequences as possible. Saying "NO don't do that!" doesn't work. If it did, most of us wouldn't be here today.
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Nope, I most certainly am not against sex. I have two (beautiful) products of my many efforts. I also believe that sex is also good (excellent actually) for recreation too.
 
Parmenides said:
A faithful partner is always resisting their biological urge for sex. That's humanity. You can't screw everything that moves. Humans have higher brain functions that go beyond basic "lizard" level instinct.
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Agreed, but teenagers lack a good portion of that higher brain function. The frontal cortex isn't fully developed until a person is in their mid 20's, leading to the common stupid teenager activities often involving feelings of invincibility.

Add to their under-developed brains that their hormone levels are up to 50 times higher during and just after puberty, leading to often raging sex drive unlike what any adult could ever experience, and the fact that since they are not adults this drive hasn't been around for that long, so they haven't properly learned to control it yet.

These three facts throw all teens such a massive curveball that it's inevitable that a good portion of them fail. Not giving them the information that could save them from ruining their lives is borderline criminal.
 
Zarathustra[H];1036015359 said:
Agreed, but teenagers lack a good portion of that higher brain function. The frontal cortex isn't fully developed until a person is in their mid 20's, leading to the common stupid teenager activities often involving feelings of invincibility.

Add to their under-developed brains that their hormone levels are up to 50 times higher during and just after puberty, leading to often raging sex drive unlike what any adult could ever experience, and the fact that since they are not adults this drive hasn't been around for that long, so they haven't properly learned to control it yet.

These three facts throw all teens such a massive curveball that it's inevitable that a good portion of them fail. Not giving them the information that could save them from ruining their lives is borderline criminal.
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That's why they live with their parents. Supposedly parents are supposed to teach them restraint until they leave the house. Teenagers need guidance when taught to use the frontal cortex. Telling them, "You can't control yourself kids" defeats all efforts. Psychologically, they are defeated before they even go to the bedroom. Most kids can and will control themselves if they believe they can. Regardless of abstinence only vs. sex ed.... you should NEVER let a kid come to the mentality of "I don't have to practice restraint because I can't restrain myself anyways." With proper help, a kid with a incomplete frontal cortex can show restraint. It has worked well in society past. It has happened many places elsewhere. It's all about the mindset. If you have a mindset to win, you can win. If you have a mindset to lose, you will always lose.

School sanctioned "condom instructions" will save a very very small number. Most anyone having sex is either (A) careful and knowledgeable already, regardless of what the teacher says or (B) Don't care anyways, regardless of what teacher the teacher says.
 
I will say that sex ed, before puberty might be a better option than sex ed during puberty. Bonus if the parents are the ones teaching, because it would be even more sobering. As long as there isn't any "But when you will do it, you need to buy a condom first."
 
Parmenides said:
I will say that sex ed, before puberty might be a better option than sex ed during puberty. Bonus if the parents are the ones teaching, because it would be even more sobering. As long as there isn't any "But when you will do it, you need to buy a condom first."
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You try to say that urges to have sex are the same as urges to rob someone. How can you expect to be taken seriously when your argument is "Sex is bad."?
 
Zarathustra[H];1036013908 said:
I don't think it has anything to do with drugs or alcohol or society....and a bunch of other stuff
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I agree with 99% of your post except the part about society not playing a role.

I now live in a country where sex before marriage is not what I would consider exactly commonplace (in most cities here anyway). Granted, I have met a fair number of girls/women who are interested in sex but I have also met MANY girls who have never even seen a penis who are in their late 20's and thirties simply because they are not married. FAR more than I have met in the US where one would be considered a bit strange for being a virgin at such an age.


Society can and will have a major role in how it's members behave. I am not saying that this type of society is better (I do no think it is actually since ignorance is rampant) but the number of teen pregnancies I am sure is significantly lower. If I had to guess though, the number of abortions in relation to the number of unwanted pregnancies may be higher here but that is another topic.
 
Spewn said:
You try to say that urges to have sex are the same as urges to rob someone. How can you expect to be taken seriously when your argument is "Sex is bad."?
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No, I'm not trying to associate sex as a wrong. I love it. The urges should be something we should control. That's the similarity I'm trying to draw. You are drawing conclusions about me and my thinking that aren't even there.

If you said that rape is wrong, could I say, "Spewn believes sex is bad." Of course not.
 
spinelli said:
I agree with 99% of your post except the part about society not playing a role.

I now live in a country where sex before marriage is not what I would consider exactly commonplace (in most cities here anyway). Granted, I have met a fair number of girls/women who are interested in sex but I have also met MANY girls who have never even seen a penis who are in their late 20's and thirties simply because they are not married. FAR more than I have met in the US where one would be considered a bit strange for being a virgin at such an age.


Society can and will have a major role in how it's members behave. I am not saying that this type of society is better (I do no think it is actually since ignorance is rampant) but the number of teen pregnancies I am sure is significantly lower. If I had to guess though, the number of abortions in relation to the number of unwanted pregnancies may be higher here but that is another topic.
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I guess it depends on th elocation, but I too have traveled a lot, and my experience has been that once you get beneath the surface, the cultural differences only impact how much people TALK about it.

In more restrictive and less open cultures everything still happens, but it just isnt spoken of because it is so taboo...
 
Going to start this by saying that I have an 8 year old daughter, a 9 year old son and a 7 month old son.

Abstinence is a JOKE. I can't believe people really think that it works. I, for one, remember what it was like at that age, though it seems that most people forget.

We show sex sex sex sex on the TV, commercials, books, school, beaches... you name it! Then we try to tell our kids that abstinence is the way to go, sex is overrated. BULL SHIT and everyone of you knows it. This has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with human nature (and the way teenagers are).

Teenage pregnancy has only been an issue in modern times because teenage pregnancy was accepted AND the norm. Just because we live longer, we want teenagers to wait longer.

Their bodies (puberty) and their brains (hormones) are telling them it's right. That's the way we were programmed (lol by teh jesuses).

Let's dangle a foot long hot dog in front of a hungry fat man and tell him he doesn't want it.
 
Parmenides said:
I will say that sex ed, before puberty might be a better option than sex ed during puberty. Bonus if the parents are the ones teaching, because it would be even more sobering. As long as there isn't any "But when you will do it, you need to buy a condom first."
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Because if a teens are in the heat of passion they're going to stop having sex and drive to CVS for protection. :rolleyes:

They need to be prepared. It is going to happen. It just simply is. If you think your kid is going to wait for marriage, you've either traumatized them or your don't know your own child.
 
IRSmurf said:
Because if a teens are in the heat of passion they're going to stop having sex and drive to CVS for protection. :rolleyes:

They need to be prepared. It is going to happen. It just simply is. If you think your kid is going to wait for marriage, you've either traumatized them or your don't know your own child.
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Statistically, somewhere over half or more of teens aren't doing it. Infact, things are less than the 1990's.

Meh, you're just taunting me about my kids .... go troll elsewhere.
 
Sometimes, abstinence is really the only sure way of birth control even within a marriage, or at least in the case of some unlucky friends of mine. They used hormonal birth control so they could both finish school, but it didn't work, and they got pregnant. So after the first unplanned child they got an IUD. They got pregnant with the IUD with the second unplanned child. They decided to try the "trusty ol' condoms" to see if they could at least get the dad through graduate school without having another baby. Didn't work. They had their third child right before he finished his doctorate!! :eek:
 
The odds of that happening are in the unbelievable range. Not saying it is the case but it is much more likely one of the two people wanted babies and was less than honest. It is not unheard of.
 
SirKronan said:
Sometimes, abstinence is really the only sure way of birth control even within a marriage, or at least in the case of some unlucky friends of mine. They used hormonal birth control so they could both finish school, but it didn't work, and they got pregnant. So after the first unplanned child they got an IUD. They got pregnant with the IUD with the second unplanned child. They decided to try the "trusty ol' condoms" to see if they could at least get the dad through graduate school without having another baby. Didn't work. They had their third child right before he finished his doctorate!! :eek:
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I call bullshit on this! Married people don't have that much sex! :D
 
spinelli said:
The odds of that happening are in the unbelievable range. Not saying it is the case but it is much more likely one of the two people wanted babies and was less than honest. It is not unheard of.
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KublaKhan said:
I call bullshit on this! Married people don't have that much sex! :D
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Lol. They swear it's true, and they've never lied to me about anything else, at least to my knowledge. The dad and I made a home built computer for their family PC, and I don't just do that with anyone, you know ... :p

It's a blessing in disguise though. They're all cute kids. I love my two children. Wouldn't trade them. We've been lucky so far, however, in that birth control has been effective for us, whatever type we've used. The pills and heavy hormonal stuff made my wife kinda crazy, though, so we've stuck to other methods instead.
 
I'm guessing a majority of future parents here will allow their kids to scream in businesses, buy whatever the kids want, plat what they want, curse the parents out... All because kids do that sort of stuff.

Kind of like the shitty parents growing up thugs right now.
 
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