GTX280 buyers remorse thread

[SexTreX]

Wow I hope we are not going to have this discussion again. I make PLENTY of money and I have NOTHING to be jealous about. I almost bought 2 GTX280's in SLi. Man I am so damn glad I didn't. Now I get to enjoy stability and performance rather than just high performance at the measily price of horrible stability.

I believe him... Just looking at Trudude's sig rig proves that he values performance and will pay for it.

If you made plenty of money you wouldnt be crying about having to pay top dollar for the latest, greatest, and fastest, so shut it.

I am going to be first in this thread to attempt to elevate the discourse and avoid namecalling or personal attacks. I ask that all the posters do the same.
Nissan, just because Trudude has a different point of view doesn't automatically make him poor.

Both views have valid points, so argue freely.
BUT STOP FLAMING.

 

[yang88she]

I believe him... Just looking at Trudude's sig rig proves that he values performance and will pay for it.



I am going to be first in this thread to attempt to elevate the discourse and avoid namecalling or personal attacks. I ask that all the posters do the same.
Nissan, just because Trudude has a different point of view doesn't automatically make him poor.

Both views have valid points, so argue freely.
BUT STOP FLAMING.

damn sex you're a buzzkill, just when it was about to get good!!

it's the afternoon now, time to switch from cola to beer...

I got the soda & food, your turn to grab the long necks

 

[POPEGOLD]

I'm just wondering why this thread has not been locked and why POPEGOLD has not been banned for his continuous thread and post trolling?

And for the record, I upgraded from a 8800GTX to a GTX280 play at 1080p and I love the performance gain, stability and smoothness in the games that I play and do not regret it one bit.

mods and [H] staff have been in this thread all day... Its not locked because the discussion of Price Performance and how it effects the world of PC GAMING is a good topic...

now play nice

 

[Dan_D]

While I am in the process of stepping up to a gtx 280 for 60 bucks, I dont regret it. I see it as insurance. The only thing that matters to me is which card/company will allow me to play any game I want at 2560 x 1600 w/ 4aa and 16af while getting excellent frames.

From my expereiences so far the Geforce GTX 280 can do that in every title out there today with the exception of Crysis and Age of Conan. Age of Conan can be run at 256x01600 with 16xAF however. Unfortunately AA creates too much of a performance hit for the card at that resolution.

 

[trudude]

But trudude said....

Oh wait, hes just as smart as POPEGOLD.



The only people who think its absolutely nuts and voice their opinions over it are the ones who are jealous and cant afford it. Not a single game out right now requires the GTX280 at most resolutions. Its the 1000 dollar displays that require this card. There are plenty of cards right now between 100-200 that can handle every game out there at respectable settings, ie the 9800 GTX and the 4850. Stop crying.

For you and everyone else thats bitching, to get so upset at the price just shows how jealous you really are, because there are plenty of other cards that can handle any game out now for under 200, that make console graphics pale in comparison.

Wow...is all I have to say. I have argued and argued over this. No more. I know I am right and I also know that there are people out there that argue just to argue. Im done with it. If you want to go out there and waste your money on whatever the item is more power to ya. I am speaking to those with common sense. This does not include people that spend $650 on a product that performs just barely better than a $300 product.

 

[POPEGOLD]

He's buying the fastest single GPU on the planet. Where is the foolish part?

the foolish part is he is so biased against ATi ... for whateva reason... he wont even consider a 4800 series

i never lock myself into a brand!

 

[Proxy]

Wow...is all I have to say. I have argued and argued over this. No more. I know I am right and I also know that there are people out there that argue just to argue. Im done with it. If you want to go out there and waste your money on whatever the item is more power to ya. I am speaking to those with common sense. This does not include people that spend $650 on a product that performs just barely better than a $300 product.

Not sure I'd so far as to say "just barely" but I do agree to some extent. I am not so sure a 3870 can muster what a 280 can at 1920x1200, and 2560x1600. Like Dan said, price to performance in high end PC parts has never been good.

 

[yang88she]

the foolish part is he is so biased against ATi ... for whateva reason... he wont even consider a 4800 series

i never lock myself into a brand!

sigh, I wish ATi cards came in something other than red, it clashes with my blue and green led fans...I am sooo not having a rainbow colored pc...hell yeah, 4 sure!

<I'm delirious and in need of coffee...>

 

[trudude]

If you made plenty of money you wouldnt be crying about having to pay top dollar for the latest, greatest, and fastest, so shut it.

I didn't cry or anything of the sort. There is a distinct difference between being poor and being savvy. I have paid top dollar in the past and I have learned my lesson. Obviously you must have had a different experience. I think it is great though that you lump me in with all those people who can't afford a GTX 280 and are angry about it. That is HARDLY the case here. I don't want to have to prove my financial situation to you on teh interwebs, but the funny thing is that it is not tough for me to. Hell I work at the bank and I can EASILY show you my ridiculous bank accounts and investments. Just cause you have money doesn't mean you have to waste it.

 

[POPEGOLD]

Wow...is all I have to say. I have argued and argued over this. No more. I know I am right and I also know that there are people out there that argue just to argue. Im done with it. If you want to go out there and waste your money on whatever the item is more power to ya. I am speaking to those with common sense. This does not include people that spend $650 on a product that performs just barely better than a $300 product.

I use to be heavy into car audio...and the same things applies... you had your upper end pircey amps.. your mid level amps..and the crap amps like pyramid

Amps that play as loud and as clean as one casting twice a much is common..

if 350 extra is worth the small small speed bump...then to each its own

why not get a 4870 and donate that wasted 350 bucks to charity or cancer research

 

[trudude]

It isn't a bang for your buck type part which some people just can't get over. The high end computer hardware never has a good price/performance ratio. That's the way the game is played.

Perhaps, but all it takes is for people to lay the smack down and buy less nVidia cards. nVidia will be forced to compete. $650 is ridiculous for the performance. Lets face it nVidia is not Ferrari.

 

[Dan_D]

I don't know why people are getting bent out of shape over this. The ATI Radeon 4870 is a damned fast and damned nice card for the price. Is the Geforce GTX 280 faster? Sure, but it costs more. No one is disputing that. Is it worth the price? Well that's for the purchaser to decide and no one else.

Calling people who aren't budget concious about their builds morons is not only out of line but its' ridiculous. Not everyone thinks that $650 for a video card is alot of money. Not everyone cares about bang for your buck. I know I certainly don't. Some people want absolute performance and its' worth it to them. Some people just can't grasp the concept that what is a ton of money to some one isn't to someone else and I don't know if its' jealousy or what but people really seem to get upset when someone else buys or even recommends hardware that's out side of an acceptable bang for buck range.

 

[trudude]

Basically what ATi has done here is exactly what Nissan did when it released the new 2009 GTR. $400,000.00 race car performance at a measily $70-75k price tag.

 

[Proxy]

I use to be heavy into car audio...and the same things applies... you had your upper end pircey amps.. your mid level amps..and the crap amps like pyramid

Amps that play as loud and as clean as one casting twice a much is common..

if 350 extra is worth the small small speed bump...then to each its own

why not get a 4870 and donate that wasted 350 bucks to charity or cancer research

In my opinion there is a fine line between stupidity and ignorance. POPE as much as I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, there are a lot of enthusiasts who don't see it as a waste. Me being one of them, look at those who bought the 8800Ultra when they hit, some were almost $800.00. Making those off hand comments doesn't make you look good ether. Let me ask you, did you go and donate $350.00? Do you really care about others as much as some of your comments would suggest you do? When was the last time you saw a homeless person or some one with a disease and just gave them $350.00?

 

[Ste]

Hrmm image tags dun work.... Bah.

totally awesome thread.

 

[JCDenton]

I don't feel bad about it at all. I got mine for around $465 shipped...it would have been nice if it ended up being 20-25% faster than the 4870 instead of perhaps 10-15%, but it's not that big of a deal. I needed the 1GB of memory for oblivion and there aren't any 4870's with 1GB up for sale. Even the 512's were like 317 shipped from newegg and prices may even go up beyond that....we're probably looking at $350+ for the 1GB card whenever it finally DOES become available.

The extra 10-15% is worth $100 to me especially considering we're talking about gains at the highest of the high end, although I'd be feeling lolpwn3d if I paid $650. Now I can basically hold this card and sit tight while I wait for the 4870x2 1GB version, and then see how gtx280SLI compares. If there's a good price drop and this ebay live madness is still going on then I can add another gtx280 for kinda cheap and have a setup that will stomp a 4870x2. If there isn't a good price drop, I just sell my gtx280 and at least break even (but more likely profit around $50), and buy a 4870x2.

 

[Dan_D]

Perhaps, but all it takes is for people to lay the smack down and buy less nVidia cards. nVidia will be forced to compete. $650 is ridiculous for the performance. Lets face it nVidia is not Ferrari.

Well if people don't find NVIDIA's products compelling then they won't buy $650 video cards. However the precident has already been set as we've been paying $600+ for video cards since the Geforce 8800GTX days if not earlier. Since then every high end card from NVIDIA has cost that much and everytime several people purchased them. Why? Because they were compelling and ATI had no products that could really compete with them. A ton of people are going to buy Radeon 4870 cards in droves because they are cheaper and about 90% or more of the performance of the Geforce GTX 280. NVIDIA will adjust in light of this. However that adjustment will take time.

 

[POPEGOLD]

I don't know why people are getting bent out of shape over this. The ATI Radeon 4870 is a damned fast and damned nice card for the price. Is the Geforce GTX 280 faster? Sure, but it costs more. No one is disputing that. Is it worth the price? Well that's for the purchaser to decide and no one else.

Calling people who aren't budget concious about their builds morons is not only out of line but its' ridiculous. Not everyone thinks that $650 for a video card is alot of money. Not everyone cares about bang for your buck. I know I certainly don't. Some people want absolute performance and its' worth it to them. Some people just can't grasp the concept that what is a ton of money to some one isn't to someone else and I don't know if its' jealousy or what but people really seem to get upset when someone else buys or even recommends hardware that's out side of an acceptable bang for buck range.

If the GTX280 was slapping around the 4870 and 9800gx2 like they owed it money....then i dont think people would have a problem with a 650.00 price tag... Kyle himself said 650.00 for the small performance gain was ridicolous.

the GTX280 is a 429.00 card selling for 649.00.

people can be miserly about there money rich or poor....

 

[yang88she]

Hrmm image tags dun work.... Bah.

totally awesome thread.

Here ya go!

 

[POPEGOLD]

In my opinion there is a fine line between stupidity and ignorance. POPE as much as I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, there are a lot of enthusiasts who don't see it as a waste. Me being one of them, look at those who bought the 8800Ultra when they hit, some were almost $800.00. Making those off hand comments doesn't make you look good ether. Let me ask you, did you go and donate $350.00? Do you really care about others as much as some of your comments would suggest you do? When was the last time you saw a homeless person or some one with a disease and just gave them $350.00?

the performance delta between the 4870 and the gtx 280 is small enough that the extra 350 is wasted money. Kyle Bennett agrees and i am sure he doesnt live check to check.

thats just my opinion....

if you think the performance delta is worth it ..then i am sure NewEgg and Nvidia would be more than happy to part you from 350 bucks

 

[Ste]

Here ya go!

Thanks, whats the size limit for imbeded images within posts?

 

[vengence]

why not get a 4870 and donate that wasted 350 bucks to charity or cancer research

1) it's not wasted. There are preformance gains over a 4870.
2) For all you know, he could be donating 10 million dollars to charity a year already.
3) For someone who said they weren't name calling, you keep being judgemental.
4) Why were you into upper end car audio equipment at all? You could have donated all that money to charity.

 

[Dan_D]

If the GTX280 was slapping around the 4870 and 9800gx2 like they owed it money....then i dont think people would have a problem with a 650.00 price tag... Kyle himself said 650.00 for the small performance gain was ridicolous.

the GTX280 is a 429.00 card selling for 649.00.

people can be miserly about there money rich or poor....

Well I find that the Geforce GTX 280 was worth the money because I wanted to ditch the 9800GX2 so badly. It's performance is all over the map, AA and AF sucked on it due to the poor memory configuration and it has the terrible ROM configuration which prevented me from using my LSI MegaRAID SAS/SATA card with only one 9800GX2 installed.

So while the Geforce GTX 280 isn't leaps and bounds faster the performance is smoother and it's a better design with fewer drawbacks.

I've got to hand it to ATI. The 4870 is a winner and the 4870X2 may be quite compelling. If any card makes me sad I bought the Geforce GTX 280's it will be the 4870X2.

 

[F.E.A.R.]

To many of us gaming is our hobby (it is mine) and main source of entertainment. Others are into cars, audio systems. Do I judge them about the money they spend?....no. Do I think they sometimes could've saved money...yes, but it is not my business to judge them. They want the best...let them. They just better not be asking me for food money....lol

 

[Dan_D]

To many of us gaming is our hobby (it is mine) and main source of entertainment. Others are into cars, audio systems. Do I judge them about the money they spend?....no. Do I think they sometimes could've saved money...yes, but it is not my business to judge them. They want the best...let them. They just better not be asking me for food money....lol

Right. Cars are as bad an investment as computer hardware. Anyone whos ever sold a modified car at a loss can tell you all about it. You can put $10,000 into a car that cost you $33,000 to begin with and after a couple years it isn't worth $15,000 total.

 

[nissanztt90]

I didn't cry or anything of the sort. There is a distinct difference between being poor and being savvy. I have paid top dollar in the past and I have learned my lesson. Obviously you must have had a different experience. I think it is great though that you lump me in with all those people who can't afford a GTX 280 and are angry about it. That is HARDLY the case here. I don't want to have to prove my financial situation to you on teh interwebs, but the funny thing is that it is not tough for me to. Hell I work at the bank and I can EASILY show you my ridiculous bank accounts and investments. Just cause you have money doesn't mean you have to waste it.

Nope, i went from a 7900 GTO i had for over a year, to an 8800 GTS that i stepped up to a 9800 GTX for free. Im quite savvy. I will never pay top dollar for new hardware/generations. Your clearly angry about paying for expensive hardware, claiming 500 dollar cards are ABSOLUTELY NUTS. You even admitted youve paid top dollar in the past, and learned your lesson. Youre clearly sore and pissed about it, so now you do nothing but shit on those who can afford it, and willingly pay for it.

No one gives a shit how much money you make, where you work, or how many bank account you have. Save your bragging cause for all we know, your a 15 year old spoiled by mommy and daddy. Photoshop does wonders on teh interwebs these days, so save it.

Wow...is all I have to say. I have argued and argued over this. No more. I know I am right and I also know that there are people out there that argue just to argue. Im done with it. If you want to go out there and waste your money on whatever the item is more power to ya. I am speaking to those with common sense. This does not include people that spend $650 on a product that performs just barely better than a $300 product.

"Knowing your right" is one of the most narrowminded mindsets one can hope to achieve, so congrats. Im not arguing with you, im pointing out your inconsistencies and wrong points. Call it what you will. Your not speaking to those with common sense, your just shitting on people for their purchasing decisions...like how spending 500+ on a graphics card is ABSOLUTELY NUTS...your speaking to a good chunk of forum members with that one...again, because your sore that you "wasted" your money in the past. Stop crying, and shut it.

 

[POPEGOLD]

1) it's not wasted. There are preformance gains over a 4870.
2) For all you know, he could be donating 10 million dollars to charity a year already.
3) For someone who said they weren't name calling, you keep being judgemental.
4) Why were you into upper end car audio equipment at all? You could have donated all that money to charity.

u sound like u wanna take it back to the old days and meet by the big oak at noon with dueling pistols

 

[Kowan]

Right. Cars are as bad an investment as computer hardware. Anyone whos ever sold a modified car at a loss can tell you all about it. You can put $10,000 into a car that cost you $33,000 to begin with and after a couple years it isn't worth $15,000 total.

Both my Harley's have tons of chrome on them. I customize them knowing I won't get what I invested in them if I ever sold them. I don't plan on selling them. I do it for me. No one else.
If someone else thinks the way I modify them is cool, nice. If they don't, no sweat. It's not their bike in the first place.

 

[vengence]

Right. Cars are as bad an investment as computer hardware. Anyone whos ever sold a modified car at a loss can tell you all about it. You can put $10,000 into a car that cost you $33,000 to begin with and after a couple years it isn't worth $15,000 total.

I would love to play with my car, but I can't bring my self to do it. If you spend 10 grand for a twin turbo setup and double your horse power, you'll literally lower the resell value of the car. Not to mention if you screw up in your "overclocking" of your car, and put your boost to high, there is no rebooting and trying a lower setting as you now have a window in the side of your block.

 

[CodeRed]

The more I read this thread the more I want a GTX. Is that bad?

 

[Splave]

thats what the graphics gods want you to do

 

[trudude]

Nope, i went from a 7900 GTO i had for over a year, to an 8800 GTS that i stepped up to a 9800 GTX for free. Im quite savvy. I will never pay top dollar for new hardware/generations. Your clearly angry about paying for expensive hardware, claiming 500 dollar cards are ABSOLUTELY NUTS. You even admitted youve paid top dollar in the past, and learned your lesson. Youre clearly sore and pissed about it, so now you do nothing but shit on those who can afford it, and willingly pay for it.

No one gives a shit how much money you make, where you work, or how many bank account you have. Save your bragging cause for all we know, your a 15 year old spoiled by mommy and daddy. Photoshop does wonders on teh interwebs these days, so save it.



"Knowing your right" is one of the most narrowminded mindsets one can hope to achieve, so congrats. Im not arguing with you, im pointing out your inconsistencies and wrong points. Call it what you will. Your not speaking to those with common sense, your just shitting on people for their purchasing decisions...like how spending 500+ on a graphics card is ABSOLUTELY NUTS...your speaking to a good chunk of forum members with that one...again, because your sore that you "wasted" your money in the past. Stop crying, and shut it.

You know what? I am not going to shut it. I am here to counter your HORRIBLE argument. YOU WILL NOT SILENCE ME. People like YOU would just LOVE IT if I would just go away so that you can THINK that you are right. Not gonna happen. Your argument is extremely tired and I am STILL trying to figure out how you think I am crying? How is me coming on here to talk about a horribly overpriced piece of computer crap crying? Explain yourself.

 

[gryoung]

What is the point of this thread? "Remorse" in the title sounds like some old time fire and brimstone evangelist trying to get "sinners" to repent and come back to the Lord! Pointless, people who bought the 280 have good reasons to do so, those that want to buy ATI or didn't buy the 280 also have legit reasons to do so. Why all the judgement and finger pointing? It's nobody's business why people purchase what they do and certainly it's not anybody's place to judge them.
As I said, pointless, this type of thread goes nowhere and only feeds the fanbois need to be confrontational about the "stuff" they own.

 

[POPEGOLD]

You know what? I am not going to shut it. I am here to counter your HORRIBLE argument. YOU WILL NOT SILENCE ME. People like YOU would just LOVE IT if I would just go away so that you can THINK that you are right. Not gonna happen. Your argument is extremely tired and I am STILL trying to figure out how you think I am crying? How is me coming on here to talk about a horribly overpriced piece of computer crap crying? Explain yourself.

I dont know why this nissan dude is flaming u so hard over your opinion

 

[Wind]

Man why is this thread still going, it has been stated over and over for years, some like to be savvy, others go for the best no matter what. Taking someones opinion is fine, but it is all subject to your interpretation. There are millionaires out there whom are cheap, kudos to them, there are others that live it up. It's all about personal preference and spouting off trying to convince people otherwise on how to spend their dollars is frankly none of anyone's business, certainly not here.

It is certainly laughable coming onto an enthusiast site of all places and preaching about bang for the buck when it comes to computer parts. There are tons on this forum whom will buy the best irregardless of second place or how close it is, they have there reasons and that's how they apply it to their hobby. If you don't like it too bad, stop trying to convince them otherwise, these threads have been around for years literally, you see it with Extreme level CPUs, video cards, memory whatever, get over it and yourselves.

 

[heatlesssun]

If the GTX280 was slapping around the 4870 and 9800gx2 like they owed it money....then i dont think people would have a problem with a 650.00 price tag... Kyle himself said 650.00 for the small performance gain was ridicolous.

the GTX280 is a 429.00 card selling for 649.00.

people can be miserly about there money rich or poor....

You're absolutely right. But guess what; I can save more money by using coupons, taking lunch to work, and keeping proper tire pressure. The list is endless.

I'll say it again, we all knew very well all that 4870 was going to offer much better bang for the buck. But I have a $400 SLI motherboard with a $1000 GPU and $300 of RAM so the $350 just didn't matter for this build. Like I said, coupons are helping pay for all of this.

You're making yourself sound holier than thou dude and you aren’t telling anyone anything they don't already know. You make good points but zealotry no matter what Barry Goldwater said is a vice.

 

[nissanztt90]

You know what? I am not going to shut it. I am here to counter your HORRIBLE argument. YOU WILL NOT SILENCE ME. People like YOU would just LOVE IT if I would just go away so that you can THINK that you are right. Not gonna happen. Your argument is extremely tired and I am STILL trying to figure out how you think I am crying? How is me coming on here to talk about a horribly overpriced piece of computer crap crying? Explain yourself.

My horrible arguement, do elaborate....if you can. Silence you? Please, talk all you want, its only you who looks like a fool. People like me would love it if you went away, because you are incredibly biased against top end hardware in itself (on an enthusiast forum, no less), which youve even stated. Again, im really not even arguing you, only pointing out your inconsistencies. How are you crying? Because brand new top end hardware is always overpriced, and never has good price/performance. Your bitching about the price calling it absolutely nuts....yeah...your crying.

I dont know why this nissan dude is flaming u so hard over your opinion

Says the troll who starts a flamebait thread...

You're absolutely right. But guess what; I can save more money by using coupons, taking lunch to work, and keeping proper tire pressure. The list is endless.

I'll say it again, we all knew very well all that 4870 was going to offer much better bang for the buck. But I have a $400 SLI motherboard with a $1000 GPU and $300 of RAM so the $350 just didn't matter for this build. Like I said, coupons are helping pay for all of this.

You're making yourself sound holier than thou dude and you aren’t telling anyone anything they don't already know. You make good points but zealotry no matter what Barry Goldwater said is a vice.

Zing!

 

[Proxy]

u sound like u wanna take it back to the old days and meet by the big oak at noon with dueling pistols

You sound like you read way to far into what people post.

You're absolutely right. But guess what; I can save more money by using coupons, taking lunch to work, and keeping proper tire pressure. The list is endless.

I'll say it again, we all knew very well all that 4870 was going to offer much better bang for the buck. But I have a $400 SLI motherboard with a $1000 GPU and $300 of RAM so the $350 just didn't matter for this build. Like I said, coupons are helping pay for all of this.

You're making yourself sound holier than thou dude and you aren’t telling anyone anything they don't already know. You make good points but zealotry no matter what Barry Goldwater said is a vice.

QFT.

 

[jacuzz1]

It can be argued that the GTX280 is overpriced however anyone that says the GTX280 is a piece of computer crap has no creditibility at all with me and I suspect most of the people in this forum.

That being said , this whole subject of price and how what someone pays for something is a reflection on their intellect is getting old.

Everything is relative and anyone lamenting on and on about how stupid it is to buy a GTX280 is simply one dementional and really needs time to mature in order to understand that money is just paper and a vehicle to attain sustanance as well as things we might find rewarding. I personally do not look at what i spend on individual components nor what i spend on this hobby anually. Frankly I do not care.

For example , I purchase a GX2 just a short time ago for 609.00 just becuase i wanted to see how Nvidia may have improved "sli on a single board" over what i experienced on the 7950gx2. The 280 was released and I sent the gx2 in and for 50 dollars got the 280.

I fail to see how that makes me an idiot but somehow, based on what is in thread after thread , I am?

Too many Marxists in this forum if you ask me. God help us all we are all now evil becuase we have the financial means to enjoyed the decadence that is the GTX280

God, lighten up people its a God dang video card now where is my tourch so i can burn two 4870 's in effigy just to piss off the peasants

I may start a thread stating anyone buying a 4870 is stupid becuase for just 300 more dollars they could have the fastest on the planet and then maybe those posting the opposite would understand how obsurd they sound

 

[trudude]

My horrible arguement, do elaborate....if you can. Silence you? Please, talk all you want, its only you who looks like a fool. People like me would love it if you went away, because you are incredibly biased against top end hardware in itself (on an enthusiast forum, no less), which youve even stated. Again, im really not even arguing you, only pointing out your inconsistencies. How are you crying? Because brand new top end hardware is always overpriced, and never has good price/performance. Your bitching about the price calling it absolutely nuts....yeah...your crying.

Your argument is horrible because you are trying to say that people should just shut up and accept the higher prices for "top end hardware". It is NOT top end hardware if the HD4870 can beat it and it does in some cases. ATi is pricing their card at the $300 mark. So who is the fool now? I am NOT biased against top end hardware because I completely plan on buying a HD4870x2 and perhaps even 2 of them. I have ZERO inconsistencies so far so I'd love for you to come forth and name them. As for your last comments about me crying you are just plain wrong. Just because I disagree that I should have to pay $650 for a GTX 280 does not mean I am crying at all. The honest truth here (since you are OBVIOUSLY defending nVidia ) is that YOU must prove the value of the GTX 280 cause nVidia can't do that on their own with real world performance. I have ZERO problems paying good money on high performance PC gear, but the truth here is that the HD4870 will deliver literally the same experience as the GTX280 for less than half the price. Like I said before what has happened here is ATi has pretty much done what Nissan has done with the 2009 GTR. Better than Ferrari Enzo performance at a $70k price point completely stock. I just don't understand how you can sit there and argue with me on this.