Gotham Knights

JavaLava said:
I am talking about the remasters and "Return to Arkham" ...the first and second game brought to next gen...think that was UE4?
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Asylum and City were ported to UE4, but only on consoles. It was a Gen 7 to Gen 8 upgrade. Having played both games on a Xbox One X, I can say definitively that they look and run like shit compared to the originals on Xbox 360. City in particular exhibits the same kind of stuttering while flying around the city that plagues almost every open-world game running on UE4.
 
polonyc2 said:
if UE doesn't handle outside open world areas very well then why did all the Arkham games use UE?...same with Gears of War etc....for such a popular game engine it seems to have some major issues...hopefully UE5 is better
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So a game like Arkham Knight used a heavily modified version of Unreal Engine 3. Rocksteady knew what the limitations of UE3 were so during the 4 years of development they added a streaming engine that preloaded new areas of the map into memory before the player entered them. This is why Arkham Knight was not released on Xbox 360 or PS3.
 
Stuttering problems in PC games is getting out of control

Certain UE4 games run flawlessly.

Can it be fixed? Absolutely - either by compiling shaders during load-time (The Ascent), compiling them before you even boot the game (Horizon Zero Dawn at launch) or compiling them in the background (Horizon Zero Dawn's recent patch).
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This isn't just a UE problem. Lots of games have been having similar issues over the past few years. It is certainly becoming problematic because it doesn't matter what hardware you have. MW 2019 and Far Cry 6 handle this before getting into gameplay and it works well. Newer builds of UE4 probably have some issues of their own but this is clearly a problem that is not just limited to UE. So many recent games have this problem.
 
Flogger23m said:
Stuttering problems in PC games is getting out of control

Certain UE4 games run flawlessly.



This isn't just a UE problem. Lots of games have been having similar issues over the past few years. It is certainly becoming problematic because it doesn't matter what hardware you have. MW 2019 and Far Cry 6 handle this before getting into gameplay and it works well. Newer builds of UE4 probably have some issues of their own but this is clearly a problem that is not just limited to UE. So many recent games have this problem.
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Days Gone is an open world UE4 game that doesn't exhibit the type of stuttering that we're seeing with Gotham Knights. It's up to the game devs to understand the game engine limitations and address it not just blame UE and Epic Games.
 
StryderxX said:
Days Gone is an open world UE4 game that doesn't exhibit the type of stuttering that we're seeing with Gotham Knights. It's up to the game devs to understand the game engine limitations and address it not just blame UE and Epic Games.
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Even if a game engine isn't optimal for certain game types, it's obvious it can be done better than Gotham Knights did it because other open world games have been done without these issues using the same engine.

That said, comparing Gotham Knights to Days Gone or anything other than the Arkham games doesn't totally make sense. You are comparing apples and oranges. Let's not forget that Arkham Knight looks better than Gotham Knights and used Unreal Engine 3. The developer knew how to get the most out of it and modified the engine heavily for their purposes.

It's clear WB Montreal didn't do that. It's also likely that it runs like shit in part to left over live service systems still in the game. A lot of that kind of crap eats up resources.

At the end of the day, the game's visuals do not justify the poor performance. It's also a shame that the game looks worse than a title from 7 years ago with worse combat, driving, map traversal and horrendous menus.
 
StryderxX said:
Days Gone is an open world UE4 game that doesn't exhibit the type of stuttering that we're seeing with Gotham Knights. It's up to the game devs to understand the game engine limitations and address it not just blame UE and Epic Games.
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Keep in mind Days Gone is like the only UE4 game I know of that doesn’t stutter like every other one out there. Also, days gone uses a heavily customized UE4 with a lot of custom code.
 
Dan_D said:
Even if a game engine isn't optimal for certain game types, it's obvious it can be done better than Gotham Knights did it because other open world games have been done without these issues using the same engine.

That said, comparing Gotham Knights to Days Gone or anything other than the Arkham games doesn't totally make sense. You are comparing apples and oranges. Let's not forget that Arkham Knight looks better than Gotham Knights and used Unreal Engine 3. The developer knew how to get the most out of it and modified the engine heavily for their purposes.

It's clear WB Montreal didn't do that. It's also likely that it runs like shit in part to left over live service systems still in the game. A lot of that kind of crap eats up resources.

At the end of the day, the game's visuals do not justify the poor performance. It's also a shame that the game looks worse than a title from 7 years ago with worse combat, driving, map traversal and horrendous menus.
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It really blows my mind how AK still now looks so incredible given the age.
 
Dan_D said:
It's clear WB Montreal didn't do that. It's also likely that it runs like shit in part to left over live service systems still in the game. A lot of that kind of crap eats up resources.
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but WB Montreal was also the developer of Arkham Origins (which used UE3) so they already had experience with both the engine and doing a Batman game
 
polonyc2 said:
but WB Montreal was also the developer of Arkham Origins (which used UE3) so they already had experience with both the engine and doing a Batman game
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Yes, but they used assets and code from Arkham City to make it.
 
Dan_D said:
Even if a game engine isn't optimal for certain game types, it's obvious it can be done better than Gotham Knights did it because other open world games have been done without these issues using the same engine.

That said, comparing Gotham Knights to Days Gone or anything other than the Arkham games doesn't totally make sense. You are comparing apples and oranges. Let's not forget that Arkham Knight looks better than Gotham Knights and used Unreal Engine 3. The developer knew how to get the most out of it and modified the engine heavily for their purposes.

It's clear WB Montreal didn't do that. It's also likely that it runs like shit in part to left over live service systems still in the game. A lot of that kind of crap eats up resources.

At the end of the day, the game's visuals do not justify the poor performance. It's also a shame that the game looks worse than a title from 7 years ago with worse combat, driving, map traversal and horrendous menus.
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I think we're all saying the same thing. It's not the game engine that is causing the open world stuttering it's how the game developers use the tools available within said engine.
 
Mchart said:
Keep in mind Days Gone is like the only UE4 game I know of that doesn’t stutter like every other one out there. Also, days gone uses a heavily customized UE4 with a lot of custom code.
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Plenty of UE4 games are smooth. Insurgency Sandstorm, Gears 4/5, Ace combat 7. Ace Combat 7 required some major work for it to work well over long distances and large maps even if the detail at ground level is obviously lower than a shooter/RPG. There are typically more NPC units on screen though, and you move much faster obviously.

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It still looks great, and back when it came out my PC at the time was getting 90-100 frame rates. Perfectly smooth. UE4 and UE5 does have some issues but clearly this is not limited to UE. The CoD devs and Far Cry 6 devs were able to overcome issues, but Watch Dog Legions was a stuttering mess for me. Different engines but WDL and FC6 were both Ubisoft games.
 
So I installed the latest version of HWMonitor just to see what’s happening while playing Gotham Knights. I’m playing on an Intel z690 platform with a i9 12900k. While running around in the open world no E core are being used (all at zero percent) and only 1 P core is showing as being utilized. Activity seems to move between different P cores but only 1 core is ever active at any given time. Not sure how a game released in 2022 isn’t multithreaded.
 
Derangel said:
Only Arkham Knight is UE4. City, and Origins are both UE3 and both games notoriously had issues on launch. BL3 had performance issues on launch that were worked on with patches.
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I think Arkham Knight was way, way more fucked up on launch than City and Orgins.
WB was offering unconditional refunds on it, even after they pulled it off of Steam, I know I got one. I was getting like10-15fps whenever I would do a burnout in the Batmobile, and that was when it wasn't CTD or just locking up Windows. I bought it again for $5 six years later and now it's great.
 
CAD4466HK said:
I think Arkham Knight was way, way more fucked up on launch than City and Orgins.
WB was offering unconditional refunds on it, even after they pulled it off of Steam, I know I got one. I was getting like10-15fps whenever I would do a burnout in the Batmobile, and that was when it wasn't CTD or just locking up Windows. I bought it again for $5 six years later and now it's great.
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Arkham Knight's PC port was absolutely fucking broken on launch. It's in a way worse state than virtually anything else I can think of aside from Cyberpunk 2077's launch. However, at least Arkham Knight was a complete game. It did have performance issues, but most of those were around running it on a mechanical hard drive (which it wasn't designed for) and running with GPU's that didn't have much RAM. They also did a poor job scaling the game textures for lower quality settings. The low quality modes looked absolutely horrendous. It was as if you had a completely different and much older game with it set like that. My main PC didn't have any issues outside of it not performing all that well. However, it did push systems of the day fairly hard. The other maddening thing about it was that SLI didn't work with it at all despite being Unreal Engine and an NVIDIA sponsored title with support for many of NVIDIA's physics and other features.

Hell, that game still looks good even by today's standards. At least it was a big open world that looked really good and somewhat justified running less than optimally on some hardware. Plus, over time driver updates and patches to the game addressed those issues. It's certainly possible that Gotham Knights' performance issues will be addressed in the future. However, it doesn't justify running so badly out of the box with it's dated graphics and many of the design decisions (menus, MMO/Live service style menus and gearing systems) are a lot less likely to ever get fixed.
 
Dan_D said:
Arkham Knight's PC port was absolutely fucking broken on launch. It's in a way worse state than virtually anything else I can think of aside from Cyberpunk 2077's launch. However, at least Arkham Knight was a complete game. It did have performance issues, but most of those were around running it on a mechanical hard drive (which it wasn't designed for) and running with GPU's that didn't have much RAM. They also did a poor job scaling the game textures for lower quality settings. The low quality modes looked absolutely horrendous. It was as if you had a completely different and much older game with it set like that. My main PC didn't have any issues outside of it not performing all that well. However, it did push systems of the day fairly hard. The other maddening thing about it was that SLI didn't work with it at all despite being Unreal Engine and an NVIDIA sponsored title with support for many of NVIDIA's physics and other features.

Hell, that game still looks good even by today's standards. At least it was a big open world that looked really good and somewhat justified running less than optimally on some hardware. Plus, over time driver updates and patches to the game addressed those issues. It's certainly possible that Gotham Knights' performance issues will be addressed in the future. However, it doesn't justify running so badly out of the box with it's dated graphics and many of the design decisions (menus, MMO/Live service style menus and gearing systems) are a lot less likely to ever get fixed.
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Just to clear up some history, Arkham Knight was developed by Rocksteady Studios for the PS4 and Xbox One. It used a heavily modified version of Unreal Engine 3 and while locked at 30fps still performed fine on console. Rocksteady did not port the game over to PC. WB Games outsourced that job to Iron Galaxy Studios which at the time was a 12 person team. That team was responsible to the poor optimization on PC and I believe that Rocksteady Studios stepped in after all the negative feedback to help get the PC port to where it is today. Note that the PC port of Gotham Knights was also handled by Iron Galaxy Studios this time around as well. Might explain the poor performance again.
 
StryderxX said:
Note that the PC port of Gotham Knights was also handled by Iron Galaxy Studios this time around as well. Might explain the poor performance again.
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Iron Galaxy also handed the recent Uncharted: Legacy of Thieves PC port which seems decent but not as good as the other Sony ports like Horizon Zero Dawn, Days Gone, God of War and Spider-Man Remastered
 
StryderxX said:
Just to clear up some history, Arkham Knight was developed by Rocksteady Studios for the PS4 and Xbox One. It used a heavily modified version of Unreal Engine 3 and while locked at 30fps still performed fine on console. Rocksteady did not port the game over to PC. WB Games outsourced that job to Iron Galaxy Studios which at the time was a 12 person team. That team was responsible to the poor optimization on PC and I believe that Rocksteady Studios stepped in after all the negative feedback to help get the PC port to where it is today. Note that the PC port of Gotham Knights was also handled by Iron Galaxy Studios this time around as well. Might explain the poor performance again.
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I had forgotten about Iron Galaxy. Even so, I don't think that invalidates anything I said about it. That was my experience with it back in the day. My GF (at the time) was playing it on a lower spec PC which suffered from all that I said above and mine only had the issue of the game not supporting SLI. (It still doesn't to this day.)
 
Dan_D said:
I had forgotten about Iron Galaxy. Even so, I don't think that invalidates anything I said about it. That was my experience with it back in the day. My GF (at the time) was playing it on a lower spec PC which suffered from all that I said above and mine only had the issue of the game not supporting SLI. (It still doesn't to this day.)
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Your post was spot on. The PC port of Arkham Knight was a huge failure. It took 6 months to get the game to a decent playable state and it continued to receive game patches and hotfixes for another year after release. Rocksteady Studios also decided to cancel the Mac and Linux version of the game because of the negative feedback.
 
I fired up Arkham Knight last night and was shocked at how good the visuals are for a 7 year old game. I've been looking at a lot of video of Gotham Knights and its really not even close. I will say some of the character models look good but the environments are rather poor compared to Arkham Knight's.
 
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I'm getting over 60-127 FPS I didn't have the Frames turned up when I first booted the game.
I'm liking this game runs butter smooth if your not running 1080P I wouldn't know what to expect.
 
Dan_D said:
I fired up Arkham Knight last night and was shocked at how good the visuals are for a 7 year old game. I've been looking at a lot of video of Gotham Knights and its really not even close. I will say some of the character models look good but the environments are rather poor compared to Arkham Knight's.
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I play through that game once a year since release. IMO, visually/stylistically it’s one of the best games ever made.
 
Flogger23m said:
Plenty of UE4 games are smooth. Insurgency Sandstorm, Gears 4/5, Ace combat 7. Ace Combat 7 required some major work for it to work well over long distances and large maps even if the detail at ground level is obviously lower than a shooter/RPG. There are typically more NPC units on screen though, and you move much faster obviously.

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None of those games are open world.
 
Armenius said:
None of those games are open world.
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Good catch. I actually hadn't played any of those outside of Insurgency Sandstorm. Which by itself doesn't look that good. However, with mods, the game is amazing to look at.
 
StryderxX said:
If you guys watch to the latest Digital Foundry Direct video they do mention that Unreal Engine 4 doesn't handle open world environments well which is why this game performs great while indoors but exhibits stuttering when moving around in the open world.

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from that video: To put it brutally, Gotham Knights' 30fps nature on consoles appears to be down to the authorship of the game as opposed to the raw capabilities of the hardware...it's only speculation of course, but based on what we've seen, the brute force power of the new machines is used to make a game that likely couldn't run well on PS4 and Xbox One work even at a basic level on PS5 and Xbox Series hardware...by extension, it's not the best example of why a transition to 30fps console gaming may be coming
 
Armenius said:
None of those games are open world.
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Reply I was responding to didn't specify open world, but in the quote it looks like they were responding to one that did. I must have missed that. AC7 might not be open world but the maps are still about the same size as most open world shooter/RPG games. Detail is lower but you move across the map much quicker. Any type of stuttering due to loading would be present there.
 
polonyc2 said:
were people blaming Denuvo again for the performance issues?
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Probably, but it's pretty obvious they rarely impact performance much when properly implemented and in equal tests. It's a shame if they removed it... The only people who really hate it are pirates.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Probably, but it's pretty obvious they rarely impact performance much when properly implemented and in equal tests. It's a shame if they removed it... The only people who really hate it are pirates.
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yeah all the tests I've seen don't really show any noticeable difference in performance with it on/off...it's just an easy scapegoat...that being said they removed it really quick...the game is barely 1 week old
 
I tested the game with the recent patch and it's still a mess in the open world. No real difference that I can see.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Probably, but it's pretty obvious they rarely impact performance much when properly implemented and in equal tests. It's a shame if they removed it... The only people who really hate it are pirates.
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You don't visit steam forums much do you? Any game that has it you see non stop bitching about it. From do not buy to performance issue cause of it.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Probably, but it's pretty obvious they rarely impact performance much when properly implemented and in equal tests. It's a shame if they removed it... The only people who really hate it are pirates.
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Not true. It's been problematic in many games over the years. It doesn't generally cause frame rate issues as much as inducing stuttering or flat in out crashing the game or preventing it from running. It's the Norton Antivirus of the copy protection world.
 
Haven't played Gotham Knights yet, but other posters are correct: Arkham Knight with all the "bells & whistles" turned on @ over 60fps is still a MIGHTY shiny game all these years later....
 
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