Good article about LCD monitors

Roger

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 31, 2004
Messages
501
Yesterday I came across this article about LCD monitors that explains in detail why manufacturers' specifications mean very little, if anything at all. They also explain differences between four different types of matrixes that are used in all today's LCDs. It's a bit long, but its well worth reading IMO.

You can find it here: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/lcd-guide.html
 
Very good indeed, if everyone read it it should eliminate about half the posts here in this forum. Should be made a sticky IMHO
 
DAMN! After weeks of deciding which TFT to get, I ordered a Samsung 193P today because I wanted good viewing angles and good color reproduction and was ready to put up with the ghosting but NOW I read this:

"Color reproduction is not perfect, too, like with MVA matrices: when you are looking straight at the screen, the matrix “loses” some shades, which return after you deflect your line of sight from the perpendicular a little."

Can anyone explain me what do they mean by that? I though PVA monitors had good color reproduction?! And if I sit directly in front of a monitor I lose some colors?!? How come no one has EVER mentioned this before? Can anyone with a PVA monitor confirm this, please. It's still not too late to cancel my order if those problems really do exist.
 
I have a Samsung 193p, the color reproduction is really good when looking straight at the screen. What I notice is that the screen seems a little, barely noticeable, brighter when looking at in from the side. This is propobly because the MVA matrix is aligned in a 45 degree angle so that it allows a wider viewing angle. The viewing angle and color reproduction is much better than on any TN-film screens I've seen, especially the vertical viewing angle. But this is to be expected.
 
Actually, the 193P is a PVA panel, not MVA. PVA is just samsung's proprietary version of MVA. PVA/MVA panels have very good color reproduction. However, the article states that the IPS panel is better for colors. The pva panel is much better than ips when it comes to contrast ratio. Many of samsung's panels have CR of 1000:1! I'm glad I read this article. I just ordered a dell 1905fp (presumably a PVA panel) which is 20ms. I'm currently using a 17" PVA 25ms panel. I thought I this would have been a decent upgrade (which regards to ghosting) but after reading the article, I guess not. The 12ms sony is nice, but its a tn+film panel, which has poor viewing angles and contrast ratio. Decisions, decisions... Sony's rated viewing angle of 160:160 is actually for a CR 5:1, instead of 10:1 which is normally quoted by manufacturers. They supposedly did this so that "on paper" their specs were closer to the competition. The real 10:1 CR is 130:130.
 
I love how throughout the article the author points out that only CRTs are truly 'general purpose'.

So in summary, with LCDs you either get:

- fast pixel response time (TN),
- good viewing angles and contrast ratio (MVA, PVA) or
- accurate (for an LCD) colour reproduction (IPS).

At the risk of coming over like an anti-LCD advocate, I think that this article correctly identifies why LCD is a dead-end technology; no matter the improvements, LCDs will never be able to match or exceed CRTs in all areas.

I thought that the 21" OLED display Samsung showed a few days ago looked quite attractive. They didn't list the price, though, or when it'll be available for sale :)
 
Dead end technology? I don't think so. Look at the sales of lcds lately. CRT is the dead end technology.
 
Sparrow_69 said:
Dead end technology? I don't think so. Look at the sales of lcds lately. CRT is the dead end technology.
I'm not talking about product popularity, only about the technology itself. LCDs are a complicated technology, expensive to manufacture and with few possibilities for signficant improvement. CRTs are a prime example of a relatively simple and elegant design, which has allowed them to exist for many decades, and they're now evolving into SED, which is just like a CRT, only with more than a single electron gun for each colour (meaning flat panels, and even lower power usage than current plasma and LCD displays). SED (and FED and OLED) displays will replace LCDs completely in the next ten years. CRTs will live on as SED.
 
Elledan said:
I'm not talking about product popularity, only about the technology itself. LCDs are a complicated technology, expensive to manufacture and with few possibilities for signficant improvement. CRTs are a prime example of a relatively simple and elegant design, which has allowed them to exist for many decades, and they're now evolving into SED, which is just like a CRT, only with more than a single electron gun for each colour (meaning flat panels, and even lower power usage than current plasma and LCD displays). SED (and FED and OLED) displays will replace LCDs completely in the next ten years. CRTs will live on as SED.

I dont know what LCD's your looking at but my HP 2335 monitor beats the crap out of any CRT I have ever owned (viewsonic profesional series 817)! High res of 1900x1200, great contrast and brightness ratios far beond a CRT, great viewing angles, great response time of 16ms, zero dead pixels!, great inputs, and its a pivot display and lets not forget the features such as PIP! What more could you ask for?!
 
You know, it's very bothersome when people don't even bother reading the very article linked to in the first post of a thread before replying.
 
Elledan said:
You know, it's very bothersome when people don't even bother reading the very article linked to in the first post of a thread before replying.

it seems like most people that post in the displays section havent read this. Everyone should take a look at it before they start talking like they know.

Also yeah LCDs do seem like a very temporary fix and the on the horizon technology seems a lot better.
 
Elledan said:
I love how throughout the article the author points out that only CRTs are truly 'general purpose'.

So in summary, with LCDs you either get:

- fast pixel response time (TN),
- good viewing angles and contrast ratio (MVA, PVA) or
- accurate (for an LCD) colour reproduction (IPS).

At the risk of coming over like an anti-LCD advocate, I think that this article correctly identifies why LCD is a dead-end technology; no matter the improvements, LCDs will never be able to match or exceed CRTs in all areas.

I thought that the 21" OLED display Samsung showed a few days ago looked quite attractive. They didn't list the price, though, or when it'll be available for sale :)


your summary is flawed

IPS/S-IPS, has the same viewing angles as the PVA/MVA, also it has better response time then the PVA/MVA even at 25ms its rated differently. Also IPS has a 16ms Panel out =p so really the best all purpose LCD would be an IPS/S-IPS one
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
your summary is flawed
I never intended it to be an exhaustive summary :)

IPS/S-IPS, has the same viewing angles as the PVA/MVA,
Pretty much correct, yes.
also it has better response time then the PVA/MVA even at 25ms its rated differently.
Correct.
Also IPS has a 16ms Panel out =p so really the best all purpose LCD would be an IPS/S-IPS one
Except for this part:
The only real problem of the S-IPS technology is the low contrast ratio (about 200:1, like that of an average TN+Film matrix). In means you see a dark gray instead of pure black. That’s not noticeable at daylight, but if you’re working in a dimly lit room, you may be disappointed at the highlighting of the black color (coupled with the characteristic violet hue when you’re viewing the screen from a side).

And of course, IPS is more expensive than TN.

So, in summary ( ;) ), a decent CRT will still be more general-purpose than even the most expensive S-IPS display, not to mention more affordable.
 
Elledan said:
I never intended it to be an exhaustive summary :)


Pretty much correct, yes.

Correct.

Except for this part:


And of course, IPS is more expensive than TN.

So, in summary ( ;) ), a decent CRT will still be more general-purpose than even the most expensive S-IPS display, not to mention more affordable.


Well ofcourse you're not going to get a perfect LCD now, but IPS/S-IPS is about as close as your going to get it has 3 out of 4 good points only thing against IPS is the bad contrast ratio, but thats the same with TN panels, so instead of going TN get an IPS =p
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
Well ofcourse you're not going to get a perfect LCD now, but IPS/S-IPS is about as close as your going to get it has 3 out of 4 good points only thing against IPS is the bad contrast ratio, but thats the same with TN panels, so instead of going TN get an IPS =p
...which is fine as long as you don't mind paying extra for a 19" S-IPS display ;)

The reason why TN is killing off IPS (and MVA/PVA) in the 17" LCD market is because TN displays can be produced so cheaply (relatively speaking). You'd have to be quite insane to buy a TN display (for most applications), but the average consumer doesn't care what kind of LCD panel it uses, as long as it's an LCD, and it's cheap.

This is one of the reasons why I want to see SED, FED and OLED destroy the LCD market: I would like to see people go out, buy a display and not have to deal with poor IQ, narrow viewing angles, low contrast ratios, dead pixels, ad nauseam. Back in the 80s and early 90s you could buy a display and expect it to work fine for decades. Now CRTs are being phased out by a number of manufacturers, others are reducing the number of CRT models they're producing, instead focusing on LCD displays, which are effectively worse than CRTs in all but a very limited number of cases.

I want to see progress, not some pathetically struggling technology become popular.
 
Elledan said:
...which is fine as long as you don't mind paying extra for a 19" S-IPS display ;)

The reason why TN is killing off IPS (and MVA/PVA) in the 17" LCD market is because TN displays can be produced so cheaply (relatively speaking). You'd have to be quite insane to buy a TN display (for most applications), but the average consumer doesn't care what kind of LCD panel it uses, as long as it's an LCD, and it's cheap.

This is one of the reasons why I want to see SED, FED and OLED destroy the LCD market: I would like to see people go out, buy a display and not have to deal with poor IQ, narrow viewing angles, low contrast ratios, dead pixels, ad nauseam. Back in the 80s and early 90s you could buy a display and expect it to work fine for decades. Now CRTs are being phased out by a number of manufacturers, others are reducing the number of CRT models they're producing, instead focusing on LCD displays, which are effectively worse than CRTs in all but a very limited number of cases.

I want to see progress, not some pathetically struggling technology become popular.

I wouldn't consider LCDs to be pathetically struggling =p
I've never used any lcd with an S-IPS panel so Ill give it a shot
But after using a Samsung 191T+ I dont think I can ever look at CRT again
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
I wouldn't consider LCDs to be pathetically struggling =p
From a technological perspective, I mean.
I've never used any lcd with an S-IPS panel so Ill give it a shot
But after using a Samsung 191T+ I dont think I can ever look at CRT again
If you like it, good for you. I wouldn't be able to stand using an LCD display for extended periods of time, due to many inherent properties of LCDs, such as the polarized light and motion blur.
 
Elledan said:
From a technological perspective, I mean.

If you like it, good for you. I wouldn't be able to stand using an LCD display for extended periods of time, due to many inherent properties of LCDs, such as the polarized light and motion blur.

I'm fairly the opposite
I can't stand a CRT for a long period of time ><
 
Suddently I'm wondering what sort of panel the 14" in my "iMac" is. I bought it about 2 years ago when I converted the thing to a PC. It's got a few dead pixels and they're always black, so I know it's not a TN panel. I think it might have a (50ms... ack!) response time, but strangely it never bothers me when I play games on it. I'll have to check out the viewing angles on it. I really doubt it's PVS... they're not that great. I'm guessing (S-)IPS is the most likely.

While they've probably got a lot of you guys running away screaming, I'm actually most interested in aquiring some MVA or (better yet) PVA panels. I'm planning on keeping a CRT around for a while as my main screen, and these sound like the ideal setup for my side screens. I doubt I'll replace the CRTs I'm using now anytime soon unless they die or go bad, but if one of them did I'd probably swap it for a 19" MVA or PVA screen. I don't need fast response times or really accurate color on my side screens since I mostly just use them for programming, leaving messenger windows open, etc., but the contrast is always nice and since I'm not right in front of them viewing angle is the most important feature.
 
Excellent Article. Now I know why all the cheap Gateway 17" LCDs look so crappy at work while my Dell 2001FP looks so much better, but has bad black (the pannel is a LGPhillips 16ms S-IPS) Even with all the issues with LCDs, you couldn't pay me to go back to a CRT. I just don't get the eye strain from LCDs that I do with CRTs.

I think that LCDs will continue to become more popular and will stay popular for a long time to come. That said, I don't think that the technology will be able to ever get rid of all the problems. In the long run I would be happy if both CRTs and LCDs went away and were replaced by something that solves the problems of both.

This should be required reading before posting about LCDs.
 
I know this is not the right place to post this question, but it just came to my mind and I really want to post it before I lost it: Is response time a spec (or does it matter) for LCD projectors? I don't see any manufacturer has ever listed this on their product specs sheets. Do they use the same tech as the LCD panels? :confused:
 
ImLazZzy said:
I know this is not the right place to post this question, but it just came to my mind and I really want to post it before I lost it: Is response time a spec (or does it matter) for LCD projectors? I don't see any manufacturer has ever listed this on their product specs sheets. Do they use the same tech as the LCD panels? :confused:
An LCD projector basically consists out of an LCD panel placed in front of a very bright light.

Think of it as an LCD display with a backlight on steroids :p
 
Elledan said:
An LCD projector basically consists out of an LCD panel placed in front of a very bright light.

Think of it as an LCD display with a backlight on steroids :p
true ! Then why nobody has listed the response time for their LCD projectors? You think a DLP projector will do better as far as eliminating the motion blur is concerned?
 
brom42 said:
I think that LCDs will continue to become more popular and will stay popular for a long time to come. That said, I don't think that the technology will be able to ever get rid of all the problems. In the long run I would be happy if both CRTs and LCDs went away and were replaced by something that solves the problems of both.

i believe that LCDs are just a 'transition technology.' has everyone forgotten OLEDs? if the promises of OLEDs can be fullfilled, its going to be an amazing breakthrough.

anybody have any updated info on OLEDs? i havent seen an article on OLEDs for around 2 years.

from what i remember, OLEDs are going to have true, vibrant colors; they glow, so theres no need for a backlight; theyre flexible; extremely thin (almost paper-thin, i believe); instantaneous response time; and im sure theres many more.

id love to see some more articles about OLEDs. anybody have any?

EDIT: found a small, interesting article. multiple links at the bottom of it. http://www.wave-report.com/tutorials/oled.htm

EDIT 2: heres another great site. the first link at the bottom of the wave report page: http://www.oled-info.com/
 
TSS Modder said:
i believe that LCDs are just a 'transition technology.' has everyone forgotten OLEDs? if the promises of OLEDs can be fullfilled, its going to be an amazing breakthrough.

anybody have any updated info on OLEDs? i havent seen an article on OLEDs for around 2 years.

from what i remember, OLEDs are going to have true, vibrant colors; they glow, so theres no need for a backlight; theyre flexible; extremely thin (almost paper-thin, i believe); instantaneous response time; and im sure theres many more.
You can forget about OLED displays (TVs, computer displays) appearing before 2008. The technology simply isn't mature enough yet.

SED on the other hand is already ready for production. The first SED TVs will appear this year, with production ramping up in 2006. If successful, they'll completely wipe out the plasma and LCD market.
 
Elledan said:
You can forget about OLED displays (TVs, computer displays) appearing before 2008. The technology simply isn't mature enough yet.

SED on the other hand is already ready for production. The first SED TVs will appear this year, with production ramping up in 2006. If successful, they'll completely wipe out the plasma and LCD market.
well of course its not mature yet. but it at least looks like a promising technology (no pun intended). though id say OLED is still making leaps and bounds.

what is this SED display technology? ive never heard of it? could i have some links? and would you point out some highlights?

id love to know about costs and sizes. i want to buy a new tv, but im looking at building a projector for downstairs since i can build it for the cost of a good quality CRT TV. but i would like a TV for my room.

ATTENTION ImLazZzy: your sig is WAY too long. needs to be 10 lines or less.
 
TSS Modder said:
well of course its not mature yet. but it at least looks like a promising technology (no pun intended). though id say OLED is still making leaps and bounds.
If OLED wasn't a promising technology it wouldn't be used in cellphones, MP3-players and all kinds of electronic devices.

what is this SED display technology? ive never heard of it? could i have some links? and would you point out some highlights?

id love to know about costs and sizes. i want to buy a new tv, but im looking at building a projector for downstairs since i can build it for the cost of a good quality CRT TV. but i would like a TV for my room.
http://www.canon.com/technology/detail/device/sed_display/

In essence, SED is the same thing as a CRT, but with millions of electron emitters placed at millimeters from the phosphor layer instead of three electron emitters at many centimeters. This makes the display much smaller in size (current prototypes are slightly thicker than comparable LCD and plasma displays), much more scalable (100" and larger should not be a problem), and very energy-efficient (one-third of the power a plasma display requires). SED is also relatively easy to produce, making it cheap once production ramps up.

The versions scheduled for release this year will be 50+" and larger, I believe. No idea about the exact price, although I doubt it'll be much more than comparable plasma displays.
 
very interesting stuff. i cant wait for further development. approx. when this year are they being released?

i hope production costs are far lower than plasmas, and they make smaller displays. id love to have a new TV and/or monitor w/ SED technology.
 
TSS Modder said:
very interesting stuff. i cant wait for further development. approx. when this year are they being released?
Q4, I believe.

i hope production costs are far lower than plasmas, and they make smaller displays. id love to have a new TV and/or monitor w/ SED technology.
Production costs, when produced in equal numbers as plasma displays, will be far lower for SED. This is thanks to the relatively simple design and the fact that existing CRT manufacturing lines can be changed to SED with relative ease.
 
jimbouna said:
would you care to list some good crts out in the market?

Mitsubishi/NEC has about the best CRT's for the money. Just pick one with the refresh rates your looking for. The Mitsubishi DP930SB 19" is somewhat of a legend but you can't buy it new any more, only refurbs. I have a used one for sale myself for $200 thats likenew.

And here is a REALLY good article on DVI and how it works.

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041129/index.html
 
This should be mandatory reading :d
Really good article, it s great to finally read one without all the oversimplifications
 
Good article.... For a recovering perfectionist, like me, it just makes the choice a lot harder though. I'm not too keen of compromises when it comes to image quality, color depth, and the occasional FPS game.

So I'm really considering just spending a little less on another CRT for now (my NEC FE950+ just died a horrible death after only 5-7 years - can't really remember if I bought it in 98 or 00) and wait for something better in the horizon. I like the promise of OLED and SED.

My quest for a replacement screen goes on (while I have to endure this crappy 17" POS killing my eyes).
 
TSS Modder said:
i believe that LCDs are just a 'transition technology.' has everyone forgotten OLEDs? if the promises of OLEDs can be fullfilled, its going to be an amazing breakthrough.

anybody have any updated info on OLEDs? i havent seen an article on OLEDs for around 2 years.

from what i remember, OLEDs are going to have true, vibrant colors; they glow, so theres no need for a backlight; theyre flexible; extremely thin (almost paper-thin, i believe); instantaneous response time; and im sure theres many more.

id love to see some more articles about OLEDs. anybody have any?

EDIT: found a small, interesting article. multiple links at the bottom of it. http://www.wave-report.com/tutorials/oled.htm

EDIT 2: heres another great site. the first link at the bottom of the wave report page: http://www.oled-info.com/


Not for nothing but I dont think OLEDs will be around anytime soon. Reason being this is a business and now that flats just taken off the manufactures must have millions in wherhouses. I dotn think they will ruin the economy by realeasing it atleast till the inventory is halfway down.
 
I read this article (in the first post) with considerable interest.

However I have been unable to determine which technology is used by the different LCD displays. The only exception is the Samsung, which uses PVA.

This information is not listed with the specifcations on the various websites.

The displays that I am interested in are the 23"-24" wide screen LCDs: Apple, HP, Samsung, Sony.

A query to Sony went unanswered. I actually spoke to an Apple who did not know the answer and never got back to me.

Am I missing something?

- Michael Bate
 
Sweetnsexy said:
Not for nothing but I dont think OLEDs will be around anytime soon. Reason being this is a business and now that flats just taken off the manufactures must have millions in wherhouses. I dotn think they will ruin the economy by realeasing it atleast till the inventory is halfway down.

Quit calling LCDs "flats", the latter has a LOT of other connotations :rolleyes: Besides, there are flat CRTs, so u r only confusing ppl :D
 
Back
Top