Going to war with NVIDIA

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Old_Way said:
This country has more lawyers per capita than anyone. People will sue over anything and the only people that keep getting richer are the lawyers.

I'm not saying that SLI shouldn't be allowed work with an Intel chipset, but there are 10,000,000,000.... other products out there that fall into the same situation.
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That's exactly right, our silly ass legal system is VERY flawed, and actually quite shitty! It protects the guilty and punishes the innocent.

I think this lawsuit is mostly FRIVOLOUS.....bah, what stupid people we have here sometimes.

NV developed their tech (SLI cards) for their own product (NV chip mainboards), if they don't want it to work with a competitors product (NON NV chip boards), they have EVERY right. It is a proprietary technology, just like Lexus's V8 is not the same as a Ford V8 engine....are you going to sue because you just can't bolt in the Lexus (Nvidia) engine into your Ford (Intel mainboard) truck? Hardly....and ATI Crossfire does not work on ALL platforms, namely, it does not work on Nvidia SLI boards...

Somebody needs to get a life, and stop trying to get something for nothing. Are you trying to tell me that you did such little research on a part that you did not know that your SLI NV cards would not be able to run in SLI on an Intel mainboard????

(fixed)
 
TheRapture said:
That's exactly right, our silly ass legal system is VERY flawed, and actually quite shitty! It protects the guilty and punishes the innocent.

I think this lawsuit is mostly FRIVOLOUS.....bah, what stupid people we have here sometimes.

NV developed their tech (SLI cards) for their own product (NV chip mainboards), if they don't want it to work with a competitors product (NON NV chip boards), they have EVERY right. I don't see some dumbass suing ATI (yet) because after all, Crossfire ONLY WORKS ON ATI CHIP MAINBOARDS!!!!!!! It is a proprietary technology, just like Lexus's V8 is not the same as a Ford V8 engine....are you going to sue because you just can't bolt in the Lexus (Nvidia) engine into your Ford (Intel mainboard) truck? Hardly....

Somebody needs to get a life, and stop trying to get something for nothing. Are you trying to tell me that you did such little research on a part that you did not know that your SLI NV cards would not be able to run in SLI on an Intel mainboard????
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Again!!! Crossfire works on all chipsets. Get your facts straight.

From your own post. "what stupid people we have here sometimes"
 
D4hPr0 said:
Again!!! Crossfire works on all chipsets. Get your facts straight.

From your own post. "what stupid people we have here sometimes"
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Oh really? And WHO is stupid here? You, oh yeah, that's right....maybe you...

http://www.tbreak.com/reviews/article.php?id=378
One thing that we’re not too fond of on either CrossFire or SLi is that they will only work with their respective chipset manufacturers at the moment. So you cant expect CrossFire to work in an nForce4-SLI motherboard or an Intel chipset board with dual PCI-E x16 slots and similarly, SLi wont work on anything other than an nForce4 setup. While we’re not sure what nVidia’s stance is, as per our understanding, ATI is very much interested in an open platform setup and wouldn’t mind working with “other” chipset manufacturers to allow the CrossFire technology to work on their platform.

ATI has since allowed the Crossfire to work with AMD and Intel chipsets, but I still don't see any NV mentioned...does anyone here have Crossfire running on an NF4 board???

http://ati.de/technology/crossfire/faq.html
5. What motherboard is required for a CrossFire system?

A. CrossFire Xpress 3200, CrossFire Xpress 1600, Radeon Xpress 200 CrossFire, Intel® 975X Express and Intel® P965 Express based dual-slot motherboards are supported platforms.

Compatible Motherboard Chipsets
(1)
AMD
Intel
Intel
ATI CrossFire Xpress 3200
Intel 975X Express
Intel P965 Express
(2)
AMD
Intel
ATI CrossFire Xpress 3200
Intel 975X Express
(3) AMD
ATI CrossFire Xpress 1600



Hmm, straight from ATI, sure don't see any Nvidia based mainboards on there....
 
phide said:
Of course, we all want that. That isn't the issue at all. The issue is that many of us may find that attempting to take legal action for this scenario is not right from a moral perspective.

Consumer freedom is an amazing, beautiful thing. You can vote with your dollar, you can express your opinion freely and you can ally yourself with others of like mind. Or you can jump head-first into a pansy-ass civil lawsuit that many of us feel has absolutely zero (or at least very little) merit.
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the op's point is he did not have a chance to vote. They changed the rules after he made his purchase. I am sensitive to his gripe since i took a loss on a perfectly good 975 board to get back sli funtionality. I am not as pissed because my experience has been very good with 680i but he has a valid point
 
Then I suppose I should sue Apple for not supporting many hardware functions that current hardware should support.

Don't get me wrong, Good luck and all... I just hate sue-happy people. 2 years of pre-law makes me sick.
 
D4hPr0 said:
I dont have a problem with Nvidia and I really would not have a problem if SLI was locked out on all Intel platforms, but why allow SLI on workstation boards and not on the high end performance counterparts.
Thats like saying " Johnny can play with this, but you cant"

I think what pisses people off the most is that Nvidia is an upstanding company that at least use to care about its customers and it only cared about delivering the best video experience not a monopoly.
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NVIDIA doesn't make multi-processor capable Xeon chipsets. They may not ever because they'd have a hard time breaking into that arena. Most companies will opt for servers with Serverworks or Intel chipsets.

NVIDIA might be able to break into the higher end workstation market like they did with the Opteron, but they have a ways to go before anyone would go for it. So they leave the driver unlocked because it doesn't hurt chipset sales in a market where they don't compete.

On the desktop side, they do compete. If NVIDIA unlocked their drivers, Intel compatible motherboard chipset sales would plummet. No one would have any reason to buy anything but Intel chipsets. (Except for the usual SIS, VIA junk cheapass Fry's PC's are made with.)
 
Mr Fox said:
Thanks Dan !!

Glad you understood.

Intel Xeon 3060@3.4
ASUS P5W DH
2x7800 GT
2x1024 MB Crucial PC 6400 C4
Scythe Inf
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p5w dh is a crossfire ready mobo. No where does it say anything related to sli. Even the manual tells you how to set up crossfire. I don't see why you think nvidia would allow their tech to be used on their competition boards.
 
the op's point is he did not have a chance to vote. They changed the rules after he made his purchase.
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And the best counter to that is, essentially, that things do change. Drivers get updated, new hardware may differ. But, you also have to understand that he willingly changed his situation. He bought a new motherboard/updated his drivers without properly researching the potential negative aspects of his actions. As I said, NVIDIA makes no guarantees as to the long-term functionality of their products/technologies. This is not unlike the 8800/Vista driver issue. People are upset that there is no driver yet, but they failed to ensure that there was a driver before they bought the card.

They shot themselves in the ass, and this is what the OP did. You're welcome to interpret in other ways, of course, but this seems like the situation to me.

And in any case, he can pursue another course of action. It's not unreasonable to assume that NVIDIA will be sympathetic to his plight and try to rectify the problematic situation. The OP hasn't indicated that he has bothered to try such a course, however. His immediate response seems to have been "lawsuit". My immediate response would be "Well, I won't buy from NVIDIA again, I guess".
 
jacuzz1 said:
the op's point is he did not have a chance to vote. They changed the rules after he made his purchase. I am sensitive to his gripe since i took a loss on a perfectly good 975 board to get back sli funtionality. I am not as pissed because my experience has been very good with 680i but he has a valid point
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I too had to give up my i975x board to gain SLI compatibility. I can afford it, but even so it sucked. I did have a bad experience with my 680i conversion, but things are better now.
 
NVIDIA and ATi are private companies, they can do whatever the hell they want.

If you think differently, you were born with a birth defect, called stupid.
 
WarriorX said:
p5w dh is a crossfire ready mobo. No where does it say anything related to sli. Even the manual tells you how to set up crossfire. I don't see why you think nvidia would allow their tech to be used on their competition boards.
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He's referring to what his video card boxes say. They do not say that he needs an SLI certified motherboard.
 
TheRapture said:
Oh really? And WHO is stupid here? You, oh yeah, that's right....maybe you...

http://www.tbreak.com/reviews/article.php?id=378
One thing that we’re not too fond of on either CrossFire or SLi is that they will only work with their respective chipset manufacturers at the moment. So you cant expect CrossFire to work in an nForce4-SLI motherboard or an Intel chipset board with dual PCI-E x16 slots and similarly, SLi wont work on anything other than an nForce4 setup. While we’re not sure what nVidia’s stance is, as per our understanding, ATI is very much interested in an open platform setup and wouldn’t mind working with “other” chipset manufacturers to allow the CrossFire technology to work on their platform.

ATI has since allowed the Crossfire to work with AMD and Intel chipsets, but I still don't see any NV mentioned...does anyone here have Crossfire running on an NF4 board???

http://ati.de/technology/crossfire/faq.html
5. What motherboard is required for a CrossFire system?

A. CrossFire Xpress 3200, CrossFire Xpress 1600, Radeon Xpress 200 CrossFire, Intel® 975X Express and Intel® P965 Express based dual-slot motherboards are supported platforms.

Compatible Motherboard Chipsets
(1)
AMD
Intel
Intel
ATI CrossFire Xpress 3200
Intel 975X Express
Intel P965 Express
(2)
AMD
Intel
ATI CrossFire Xpress 3200
Intel 975X Express
(3) AMD
ATI CrossFire Xpress 1600



Hmm, straight from ATI, sure don't see any Nvidia based mainboards on there....
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Just because ATI does not advertise Crossfire to work on an Nforce board(not surprised) it does not mean it doesnt work. And as far as I know ATI did not lock out crossfire on Nforce boards. Its the Nforce drivers that create problems for crossfire.
 
D4hPr0 said:
Just because ATI does not advertise Crossfire to work on an Nforce board(not surprised) it does not mean it doesnt work. And as far as I know ATI did not lock out crossfire on Nforce boards. Its the Nforce drivers that create problems for crossfire.
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I believe this is incorrect. ATI has locked out Crossfire from functioning on NVIDIA motherboards. Intel has a licensing agreement with ATI for Crossfire compatibility.
 
D4hPr0 said:
Just because ATI does not advertise Crossfire to work on an Nforce board(not surprised) it does not mean it doesnt work. And as far as I know ATI did not lock out crossfire on Nforce boards. Its the Nforce drivers that create problems for crossfire.
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"as far as you know" So in fact, you do not know everything then (neither do I). Let's just call it a truce, this really isn't our battle.


<back on topic>
:cool:
 
lockheed2266 said:
NVIDIA and [AMD] are private companies [more accurately, they are publicly traded corporations], they can do whatever the hell they want.
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That's not entirely true. There are most certainly limitations as to how they can operate. I don't think the OP's complaint has any legal validity, but that doesn't mean that corporations are free to break down any walls in their paths. That is most certainly not the case.
 
Dan_D said:
He's referring to what his video card boxes say. They do not say that he needs an SLI certified motherboard.
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The box says you dont need an sli mobo to run in sli or to run in single card setup?
 
Dan_D said:
I believe this is incorrect. ATI has locked out Crossfire from functioning on NVIDIA motherboards. Intel has a licensing agreement with ATI for Crossfire compatibility.
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You are correct Dan... this is a Software Lock out Issue

ALL DUAL PCI-E x16 MOBO's are PCI/SIG PCI Express v 1.0a compliant.

Both ATI/AMD and NVIDIA have this anti-competitive feature

And for anyone else.... There is no lawsuit involved at this point. Just the USDOJ-ATD and Michigan A.G.

I have tried at the Highest Levels of BFG Tech, and NVIDIA to get a Win/Win solution.....

I have been forced now to take this action because of their disregard for their customers.

There are thousands of customers that are being effected by this behavior by two companies that have an effective monopoly on the gamer/enthusiast sector.

I love my NVIDIA Graphics Cards and to me anything else is Junque....

Any NVIDIA C2D supporting chipset until this point has been very poor... almost a joke.

 PCI/SIG is there for a reason.

Because of NVIDIA's bull headedness... They now will risk the genie getting out of the bottle, and the government dictating the terms.
 
phide said:
And the best counter to that is, essentially, that things do change. Drivers get updated, new hardware may differ. But, you also have to understand that he willingly changed his situation. He bought a new motherboard/updated his drivers without properly researching the potential negative aspects of his actions. As I said, NVIDIA makes no guarantees as to the long-term functionality of their products/technologies. This is not unlike the 8800/Vista driver issue. People are upset that there is no driver yet, but they failed to ensure that there was a driver before they bought the card.

They shot themselves in the ass, and this is what the OP did. You're welcome to interpret in other ways, of course, but this seems like the situation to me.

And in any case, he can pursue another course of action. It's not unreasonable to assume that NVIDIA will be sympathetic to his plight and try to rectify the problematic situation. The OP hasn't indicated that he has bothered to try such a course, however. His immediate response seems to have been "lawsuit". My immediate response would be "Well, I won't buy from NVIDIA again, I guess".
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I would agree except the wording on the box implied no research needed.
 
Because of NVIDIA's bull headedness... They now will risk the genie getting out of the bottle, and the government dictating the terms.
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If there were not copyright laws to begin with, you wouldn't have this issue right now. Get the laws appealed that *help* nVidia do this, and maybe they wouldn't do this, and even if they did you wouldn't have to get your drivers from nVidia.

You don't solve Government with more Government. :rolleyes:

You solve solve Government by taking away their power, A.K.A their Law. Take away the laws that allow nVidia to do this, and there you go! Problem solved.
 
SLI is a feature of the NVIDIA chipset. Why should NVIDIA lose sales by allowing it to work on other chipsets? It's not illegal because their product will work in any motherboard, just the feature of running 2 together will not work. SLI is not a product it is a feature.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but I don't see it as illegal.
 
PRIME1 said:
SLI is a feature of the NVIDIA chipset. Why should NVIDIA lose sales by allowing it to work on other chipsets? It's not illegal because their product will work in any motherboard, just the feature of running 2 together will not work. SLI is not a product it is a feature.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but I don't see it as illegal.
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from what i understand, both sli and crossfire are a feature of the pci express bus with multiple slots. the datapath is there, its just whether or not the cards will use it.
 
I don't think that's the case. The data path may exist (I don't have access to the details of the specification), but isn't the data path of SLi the SLi bridge connector, and isn't the data path of Crossfire the external dongle?

Even if the data path is there and is fully utilized by both SLi and Crossfire, what stipulations exist as to the type of data? Where in the PCI-e specification does it mandate that, for full compliance, NVIDIA must allow SLi on all PCI-e compliant chipsets? Ditto for ATi/AMD?
 
D4hPr0 said:
And how is that????? 680i has a long ways to go to match the 975X. Why should we go buy a new motherboard.

Imagine if you bought a PS3 and Sony only supported the 1080p res on Sony TV's just to get more TV sales. Im surprised Nvidia has gotten away with this for such a long time.

What gets me though is why is SLI enabled on Intel workstation motherboards for the Quadro cards???? Because Nvidia doesnt have anything for that market plus no one would buy their unstable chipsets to do professional work.

On top of that they say that the 975X cant support SLI even though Intel workstation boards are very similar to the 975X.

If you like being BS'ed and getting it handed to you, thats your choice. I like to buy what I want and not be forced to purchase something I dont want.
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well if i went to buy a ps3, and it says it only runs a certain res on sony tv's, well i wouldnt buy the ps3 or i would live with it. are you saying that sony(or nvidia) should be forced to manufacture their hardware/software so that every possible configuration that anyone could want should be available, and available for free? if you want crossfire, buy a crossfire board. if you want sli, buy an sli board. or deal with it. should i sue ford because i want a chevy carb, and its not available for free, and i cant just bolt it on even if it was?
 
phide said:
I don't think that's the case. The data path may exist (I don't have access to the details of the specification), but isn't the data path of SLi the SLi bridge connector, and isn't the data path of Crossfire the external dongle?

Even if the data path is there and is fully utilized by both SLi and Crossfire, what stipulations exist as to the type of data? Where in the PCI-e specification does it mandate that, for full compliance, NVIDIA must allow SLi on all PCI-e compliant chipsets? Ditto for ATi/AMD?
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the dongle isnt needed for the newest ati cards, they use the internal bridge as well


i was thinking the bridge is control signals
 
this is stupid whats wrong with nvidia stopping people from using SLI (which they have created) with other companies motherboards. Nvidia should have the right to do this in order to promote there product. It was a stupid desision by intel to provide support for crossfire on their 975 and 965 chipsets and now they are paying for it, if they did there research they would have seen the SLI is more popular, and im pritty sure at one stage nvidia was selling sli support to companies and no one wanted to buy it. Nvidia chipsets are great and ofcourse they are gonna have some bugs on intel boards, as they had many on amd but as they got more mature they fixed those issues and they will do the same with intel. This is like saying that its wrong for AMD to only allow you to use AMD cpu's on a AMD motherboard, its just stupid. please someone correct me if i have mis understood this thread.
 
phide said:
I don't think that's the case. The data path may exist (I don't have access to the details of the specification), but isn't the data path of SLi the SLi bridge connector, and isn't the data path of Crossfire the external dongle?

Even if the data path is there and is fully utilized by both SLi and Crossfire, what stipulations exist as to the type of data? Where in the PCI-e specification does it mandate that, for full compliance, NVIDIA must allow SLi on all PCI-e compliant chipsets? Ditto for ATi/AMD?
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A SLI bridge is not required to link the card. Without it there is a preformance hit but it still will work. It can all be done through the Pci-express bus.
 
Ton of people on here like being screwed over by companies, sad part is its considered business as ussual for so many. They are screwing the consumer so they can make more money. I applaud this guy and hope he puts some change in motion
 
You can't expect companies like NVIDIA and AMD to not have proprietary technologies. You may believe that NVIDIA and AMD should always act in the interest of the consumer, but that surely isn't the case. I don't see anyone being screwed here -- these are the risks we decide to take upon ourselves.
 
Alright, not trying to step into this argument but I want to clear up some misinformation here. I do not know of anyone running SLI on Intel 5000x core logic unless it is on the Dell Precision 690. If someone has run it, please let us know. Dell uses an nVidia chip on the riser board to allow SLI to work.

Chip is on the right hand side:

DSC00937.jpg


Because of this chip, crossfire won't work on the board with the riser card, it blue screened on me everytime I installed the drivers:

DSC00938.jpg


I have yet to try any consumer gaming cards in the 690, they may or may not work in SLI, but Quadros do work with nVidia drivers:

DSC00935.jpg


Alright, back to arguing...
 
What a retarded law suit, prices are not that much higher than high end voodoo cards, and NVIDIA makes it clear you have to have an SLI motherboard to use SLI so if you are too dumb to do so that is your own fault
 
chinesepiratefood said:
What a retarded law suit, prices are not that much higher than high end voodoo cards, and NVIDIA makes it clear you have to have an SLI motherboard to use SLI so if you are too dumb to do so that is your own fault
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...you're just too stupid to understand the issue at hand,

or are you part of the new AEG shitzterz?
 
phide said:
Knock off the personal attacks, kiddo.
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another AEG shitzter...
whatever those 2 say , it's always in favor of nvidia , no matter what the issue is, and regardless of what the truth is
 
bobrownik said:
another AEG shitzter...
whatever those 2 say , it's always in favor of nvidia , no matter what the issue is, and regardless of what the truth is
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Sueing over something that is Nvidia's own tech and its their decision to make it exclusive to their chipsets is ridiculous. You should have some common sense and buy a mobo that says "Sli certified" or research what you buy. If you cant do a little research then go buy an xbox or something. If sli was on intel chipsets, then there would be no reason to buy nvidia's.
 
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