Going to war with NVIDIA

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MrFace said:
Sounds like user error and stupidity. Please leave the boards, you aren't wanted.
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I can't say I totally disagree. I've been running on an nForce 4 SLi platform for months now, and have had zero issues. The core logic works perfectly. Any crashes or issues I've experienced are like 90% user error or 10% malicious software issues.

Going to come back later and comment more on this "issue".

I need gas to run my car, but you don't consider the gas market the same as the car market. Yeah, they are related but you don't group gas and cars together in the same market.
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Ford, Honda, Chevrolet and other auto manufacturers do not make gasoline. NVIDIA and ATi both make the "gas" for their "cars", and you cannot obtain "gas" from anyone else (well, technically, anyway -- homebrew drivers are official variants).

Besides which, drivers aren't a market. Like Dan said, they are mandatory for operation of the products. Their presence is a given.
 
This is rediculous!! I seriously can't believe he is trying to sue them for creating a product.

Just don't buy it. If you want a Hemi engine, you have to buy a DiamlerChrysler product. If you want an LS2 engine, you have to buy a GM product. Why not sue them while you're at it?
 
To D4hPr0;

Go get an Intel chipset M/B and try and run Crossfire on it, PM me and let me know how it works.
 
D4hPr0 said:
And how is that????? 680i has a long ways to go to match the 975X. Why should we go buy a new motherboard.

Imagine if you bought a PS3 and Sony only supported the 1080p res on Sony TV's just to get more TV sales. Im surprised Nvidia has gotten away with this for such a long time.

What gets me though is why is SLI enabled on Intel workstation motherboards for the Quadro cards???? Because Nvidia doesnt have anything for that market plus no one would buy their unstable chipsets to do professional work.

On top of that they say that the 975X cant support SLI even though Intel workstation boards are very similar to the 975X.

If you like being BS'ed and getting it handed to you, thats your choice. I like to buy what I want and not be forced to purchase something I dont want.
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that's like saying why can't diesel gasoline work in every car

or why can't every car have a prius drivetrain for efficiency?

Or why can't samsung cell phones take motorola batteries

ETC ETC ETC...

gimme a friggin break.
 
in that case, maybe you should sue sony for only using Memory Sticks in their P&S digital cameras...

or sue Ronald McDonald for not making a Whopper 'your way'.
 
AppaYipYip said:
This is rediculous!! I seriously can't believe he is trying to sue them for creating a product.

Just don't buy it. If you want a Hemi engine, you have to buy a DiamlerChrysler product. If you want an LS2 engine, you have to buy a GM product. Why not sue them while you're at it?
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I would love to see how ridiculous this would be for you if Intel locked out one core on your 680i motherboard.
 
Besides which, drivers aren't a market. Like Dan said, they are mandatory for operation of the products. Their presence is a given.
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Yes, they are. Drivers are a complement market. The market is currently a monopoly because of Governmental laws. Their presence is a given, true, and are manadatory for the operation of the products, true.

By your logic printer ink isn't a market because they are mandatory for operation of the products.
 
D4hPr0 said:
I would love to see how ridiculous this would be for you if Intel locked out one core on your 680i motherboard.
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What the hell is wrong with you? Seriously, get a life.

A company creates a product to fill a market. They have to protect their creative license and technology by creating a brand. Nothing Intel or nVidia does has ever been a problem for me in my lifetime of owning their products or buying them. I happily build new systems without so much of an issue.

If I want SLi technology, I buy the compatible peices and build it. If I want SLi memory, I buy SLi memory. I understand that I need to buy a 680i chipset motherboard that supports said features.

Crawl back under the rock you came out of and look for a new hobby please.
 
Oh and while you are at it, please sue Apple for forcing you to buy a Mac in order to run OS X.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
stormshadow said:
that's like saying why can't diesel gasoline work in every car

or why can't every car have a prius drivetrain for efficiency?

Or why can't samsung cell phones take motorola batteries

ETC ETC ETC...

gimme a friggin break.
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His analogy was bad, but his point is valid.
Really people should be able to buy whatever motherboad/video card combinations they want and have it work. nVidia is just bogarting with drivers that intentionally won't allow crossplatforms to work. It's not as though the chipset(s) somehow magically make SLi function.

A better analogy would be if Sony made PS3 owners specifically buy Sony TV's in order to make a PS3 work.

I've always thought it should be a buyers market. I think that Crossfire is much the same as SLi and should be opened up. On the other hand I realize that SLi/Crossfire isn't really worth it for most people anyway. Might as well buy the chipset you want and a single card, as usually next get single card is faster than the previous gens SLi/Crossfire setup. An example is 2x 7900GTX's vs 1x 8800GTX. But, I digress.

*ramble ramble* :p
 
Well, here's the deal breaker:
• Because of this issue, I have no official SLI support and can only use older drivers; this limits me from upgrading to Windows Vista as I will lose SLI functionality.
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NVIDIA offers no guarantee, expressed nor implied, that NVIDIA products will have long-term upgradability or usability with future products (motherboards) or operating systems. They make no guarantees as to how long they choose to continue driver development for old or discontinued products. Your future OS upgrade path is not mandatory.

The Snickers bar I bought today has peanuts in it. If I choose to hold on to this Snickers bar until 2009, and if the Mars Corporation stopped using peanuts in Snickers bars in 2008, can I rightly expect for the Mars Corporation to replace my Snickers or, at the very least, remove the peanuts from it at no cost to me? Would I have the making of a civil suit?
 
Yeah I'm sorry, but this is just plain absurd.

AppaYipYip said:
Oh and while you are at it, please sue Apple for forcing you to buy a Mac in order to run OS X.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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This is the example I was thinking of while reading through the thread, and then I saw it, good work :D
 
Proxy said:
To D4hPr0;

Go get an Intel chipset M/B and try and run Crossfire on it, PM me and let me know how it works.
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This is from the review of the MSI 965 Platinum review:
Dan D said:
I used two X1800XT’s in Crossfire mode for my testing...
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I'm confused. Is the OP saying he is involved with or instigated the DOJ investigation?
 
stormshadow said:
that's like saying why can't diesel gasoline work in every car

or why can't every car have a prius drivetrain for efficiency?

Or why can't samsung cell phones take motorola batteries

ETC ETC ETC...

gimme a friggin break.
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Your argument is without merit.

Gasoline engines were not designed to support diesel fuel.

Samsung batteries are dimensionally not compatible with Motorola phones.

975X is fully compatible with SLI, but its locked out. So try again.

You guys seem to be forgetting why we all own Pc's and not Apple computers. Because of the freedom we had with an open platform.

If Intel released the C2D and it locked out one core on the 680i you guys would be screaming bloody murder. I know....I know....then just dont buy it argument would come up, but what if it was the chip to have and the competition would not have anything close in performance anytime soon and you were forced to have a slower system???
 
Mr Fox said:
The United States Department Of Justice Antitrust Division is Investigating NVIDIA and ATI for price fixing.

In addition there are activities that suggest a deeper investigation on NVIDIA relating to their drivers, and software and feature support on other vendors core logic chipsets.


Excerpted from my letter to USDOJ-ATD:

Tying - The practice of making the sale of one good conditional on the purchase of a second distinctive good
By forcing the purchase of NVIDIA Core Logic Chipsets in order to maintain features in their Graphics Cards as well as locking out competitors Core Logic Chipsets in their Graphics Card Driver Software.
Also by denying Driver support of certain features on competitors Core Logic Chipsets.

Vendor lock-in - Is a situation in which a customer is so dependent on a vendor for products and services that he or she cannot move to another vendor without substantial switching costs, real and/or perceived
By forcing the purchase of NVIDIA Core Logic Chipsets in order to maintain features in their Graphics Cards as well as locking out competitors Core Logic Chipsets in their Graphics Card Driver Software.
Also by denying Driver support of certain features on competitors Core Logic Chipsets.


“The changing definition of “SLI” (Scaleable Link Interface)

Newer supporting graphics card drivers “Lock-Out SLI Functionality on Competitors Core Logic Chipsets.” (IE: Intel 975x)

On the rear panel of the boxes, there is product information collateral that NVIDIA Corp.
feeds to the partners, that manufacture, and distribute NVIDIA-based PCI Express graphics cards.

In the Personal Computer industry it is routine for AMD, Intel, ATI etc. to provide verbatim collateral that their partners must use in all forms of advertising and product information, provided during the sales phase to the potential/prospective customer.

This explanation of what SLI is appears on the rear panel of my product box:

“What is SLI ? How does it Work?
An NVIDIA SLI system requires a PCI Express motherboard that supports two physical connectors that are capable of having two NVIDIA-based PCI Express graphics cards plugged into them. Joined by the NVIDIA SLI connector, the two graphics cards power one monitor, delivering earth shattering PC performance. SLI requires a PCI Express motherboard, and both graphics cards must be the exact same model number and from the same vendor. For example, two GeForce 7800 GT OC PCI Express cards from BFG Technologies.”

NVIDIA produces GPU chips, and does proof of concept development that the partners use in the development of their product. The consumer depends upon NVIDIA for graphics driver software.

(See Scanned Box Images Below)

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/9237/whatisslikf4.jpg

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/5627/systemrequirementsmk2.jpg


PCI/SIG http://www.pcisig.com/home is the PCI Express interoperability specifications consortium that assures add-on card communications protocols are compatible thru all PC platforms.

All PCI Express motherboards and Graphics Cards are built to be compliant to that specification regardless of core logic chipset, or manufacturer.

My graphics cards will not function in SLI mode with this (Intel 975x)Core Logic Chipset with current NVIDIA Graphics Drivers.

NVIDIA has changed the definition of SLI since the purchase of my graphics cards, and locked out competitive compliant Core Logic Chipsets in their Graphics Drivers software. It now requires NVIDIA Core Logic Chipsets only.

This is not a hardware issue, as in the past with older video card drivers,(pre 88.55) you could edit your Windows XP registry to enable the second graphics slot.

NVIDIA in their drivers beyond 88.55 have enabled aggressive overwriting to not allow the user to alter the Windows XP registry in this manner. Editing the registry in this manner does not infringe upon NVIDIA software intellectual property, as you are editing the Windows XP registry.


Per below:

Step 1. Click the Windows' "Start" button, click on "Run", type "regedit" and click the Ok button.

Step 2. Navigate to "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video\" where you'll find a list of keys identifying all the installed so far video cards.

Step 3. Find which are the two keys representing the currently installed 2 video cards in your system (look for "Device Description" in the \0000 under the display id key).

Step 4. Now you have to insert the following keys under the main display key (or modify their values if they are already present):

\0000
MB_Capable REG_BINARY 01 00 00 00
MB_Enable REG_BINARY 01 00 00 00

\0001
MB_Enable REG_BINARY 01 00 00 00




http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8622/reg1pe4.jpg



http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8844/reg2xw5.jpg




• In the below product information collateral no where is the phrase “NVIDIA SLI READY” this change came later in the game, and the proper information, was never communicated properly during the sales phase, to the potential/prospective customers.

“An NVIDIA SLI system requires a PCI Express motherboard that supports two physical connectors that are capable of having two NVIDIA-based PCI Express graphics cards plugged into them.”

• This collateral came from NVIDIA and BFG tech. as a partner was required to use this collateral verbatim as supplied by their supplier.

• Because of this issue, I have no official SLI support and can only use older drivers; this limits me from upgrading to Windows Vista as I will lose SLI functionality.

• NVIDIA has effectively shielded itself from the end users, thru their manufacturing, and distribution partners that they can then ignore, as they are in effect the partners revenue source.

• BFG Technologies has attempted in good faith to influence NVIDIA but at this point this is a political issue, and BFG Technologies hands are tied.

• I personally am at a dead end from NVIDIA’s actions when it comes to something as simple as Driver Support for SLI on anyone else’s Core Logic Chipsets.

• This issue effects thousands of NVIDIA’s Partners Customers and some form of relief is needed from NVIDIA’s unscrupulous business practices.

• I have paid for the hardware and all associated rights, and am being denied proper ongoing product support and usage based upon information that was not made available during the sales phase.

• Intel developed and is the primary supporter of PCI Express

• NVIDIA Quaddro Graphics cards are not affected by the SLI Lockout on Intel Core Logic Chipsets. These are used in Enterprise CAD workstations primarily.

• NVIDIA has chosen to operate in a monopolistic fashion, and is sacrificing it’s partners’ customer relationships for simple greed.

• At this point because of the Major Issues that exist with NVIDIA Core Logic I must request relief in the form of forced driver support for my Graphics Cards.



What SLI is was clearly defined in open statements on the product boxes in black and green. NVIDIA produced that collateral, and should be held responsible for the support of their products, within that clearly defined definition. The trademarked phrase “SLI Ready” were absent from this collateral.

By attempting to subjugate that after the fact is a deplorable act, and shows total disregard for their customers, and partners.

Because of NVIDIA’s poor Core Logic Chipsets for Intel Core 2 Duo CPU’s it puts the end user in a very tough position to either buy their poor product, or loose feature support buying a competitor. Intel, pioneered and drove PCI-Express their Core Logic Chipsets are fully compliant with the specifications.
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cliff notes anyone? anyone? anyone?
 
EQTakeOffense said:
By your logic printer ink isn't a market because they are mandatory for operation of the products.
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I understand your point, and drivers may be a market in the purest literal sense of the word, but they are quite unlike printer ink because:

A) Printer ink is a product with an associated consumer cost. It's purchase price is greater than zero. The purchase price of NVIDIA drivers is zero.
B) Printer ink can be obtained from a variety of manufacturers that operate with some degree of functionality in most major printers.
 
EQTakeOffense said:
Yes, they are. Drivers are a complement market. The market is currently a monopoly because of Governmental laws. Their presence is a given, true, and are manadatory for the operation of the products, true.

By your logic printer ink isn't a market because they are mandatory for operation of the products.
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Printer ink is a consumable item. Therefore there is a market for it. For drivers, they aren't really consumable. Not in the same sense anyway.

I think most people in this thread are missing the point. The original poster is upset because he used to be able to run his video cards in SLI mode, supported or not, and now NVIDIA has changed things to where he can no longer do so. None of the video card packaging expressly tells him that he has to use SLI certified and compatible motherboards is his point. Really, it's the only leverage too from what I can see.

There is precident set for cases like this. I don't pretend to know what the circumstances are, but a lot of crap is required to be on packaging for various products because of stuff like this.
 
This country has more lawyers per capita than anyone. People will sue over anything and the only people that keep getting richer are the lawyers. Bring on another class action suit where everyone who ever bought an Nvidia card will get a $5 off mail-in rebate certificate towards the purchase of their next video card (only if purchased at full MSRP). Meanwhile, the lawyers doing the case will take home 5.4 million as their 40% fee for representing all us poor folks that were so 'royally screwed' over not wanting to buy the motherboard they told us we needed.

I'm not saying that SLI shouldn't be allowed work with an Intel chipset, but there are 10,000,000,000.... other products out there that fall into the same situation.
 
If Intel released the C2D and it locked out one core on the 680i you guys would be screaming bloody murder. I know....I know....then just dont buy it argument would come up, but what if it was the chip to have and the competition would not have anything close in performance anytime soon and you were forced to have a slower system???
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There is no force invovled in this. You are willing choosing to take a slower system.
 
EQTakeOffense said:
There is no force invovled in this. You are willing choosing to take a slower system.
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I understand, but if this keeps going we will all be stuck using an Apple.
 
I agree with the guy that said "Take Nvidia to the cleaners"

This "use our motherboard only" crap needs to stop.

Also, if you want to sell Dell, HP, and all the other ass holes that use proprietary hardware and software then please be my guest. I think they are all using anti-competitive practices that are or should be illegal.

Proprietary hardware does nothing but hurt the consumer and force ordinary end-users to stay in one company for stuff.

~Adam
 
Dan_D said:
The original poster is upset because he used to be able to run his video cards in SLI mode, supported or not, and now NVIDIA has changed things to where he can no longer do so.
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Unless I've completely misunderstood the OP, the key phrase to keep in mind in this post is "used to".

From a legal perspective, it's very dicey. NVIDIA surely has every right to modify the long-term requirements of their products. The fact remains that, if the OP maintains a "static" configuration, his needs will be met according to the original definition of SLi. What the OP wants to do, however, is upgrade, and NVIDIA offers no guarantees that its products will have some sort of long-term compatibility with future drivers, motherboards or operating systems.

Whether or not you could call this anti-consumer isn't debatable, I guess. It is bad for the consumer, yes, but in the same way that Apple's OS lock is bad for the consumer. It's just one of those things.
 
Printer ink is a consumable item. Therefore there is a market for it. For drivers, they aren't really consumable. Not in the same sense anyway.
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But drivers get outdated, bugs come up, improvements can be made. If software wasn't consumable, we would still be stuck in DOS for an O.S.
 
MrMike said:
If you pirate it, are an apple developer, or remove it from an old Mac.
None of those are acceptable solutions.
It's an accurate comparison.
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You do realize that you can buy a license and install media from mac for $130.
 
EQTakeOffense said:
But drivers get outdated, bugs come up, improvements can be made. If software wasn't consumable, we would still be stuck in DOS for an O.S.
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Yeah, but it's not quite the same as printer ink.
 
Proxy said:
To D4hPr0;

Go get an Intel chipset M/B and try and run Crossfire on it, PM me and let me know how it works.
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I have crossfire running on a 975X board right now.. are you just confused or ignorant?

To the original OP.. good luck.. because honestly it would be great to run SLI on 975X boards.. not sure why ANYONE would NOT want MORE choices instead of less.
 
Going to war with NVIDIA
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Alright dude. NR 15. I'll go mass hydra. You go 'goons. GL HF DD. No BS



:D



I don't like the idea of suing nvidia for this. Drivers are required for hardware, and who better to make the drivers than the person who also made the hardware? You can use microsoft's built in ones... you can use haxor'd drivers.

How bout nvidia drops all warranties? I would NOT replace people's shit because they decided to use drivers from some other company than the ones that I created for MY hardware. Now it doesn't work, temp sensors don't work, FPS are horrible yada yada yada. Standard drivers remove a lot of variables out there. RMAs can remain for hardware fuckups instead of user error wanting to be a leet modder with "performance" drivers.
 
There are a lot of really good opinions in this thread. I can understand where Mr. Fox is coming from and I wish him the best of luck in whatever actions are taken. It's discussions like this that really point out the flaws in our legal system. Laws should expire every 5-10 years.
 
AppaYipYip said:
This is rediculous!! I seriously can't believe he is trying to sue them for creating a product.

Just don't buy it.
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Excuse me but what kind of idiot are you?

He has already stated that he bough the damn vga's!!!
and besides that he got the SLI working until the new drivers came in

thats just not fair and you need to think bout it
 
I dont have a problem with Nvidia and I really would not have a problem if SLI was locked out on all Intel platforms, but why allow SLI on workstation boards and not on the high end performance counterparts.
Thats like saying " Johnny can play with this, but you cant"

I think what pisses people off the most is that Nvidia is an upstanding company that at least use to care about its customers and it only cared about delivering the best video experience not a monopoly.
 
TheGameguru said:
not sure why ANYONE would NOT want MORE choices instead of less.
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Of course, we all want that. That isn't the issue at all. The issue is that many of us may find that attempting to take legal action for this scenario is not right from a moral perspective.

Consumer freedom is an amazing, beautiful thing. You can vote with your dollar, you can express your opinion freely and you can ally yourself with others of like mind. Or you can jump head-first into a pansy-ass civil lawsuit that many of us feel has absolutely zero (or at least very little) merit.
 
Of course, we all want that. That isn't the issue at all. The issue is that many of us may find that attempting to take legal action for this scenario is not right from a moral perspective.
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I don't think it's right for Political reasons.

Consumer freedom is an amazing, beautiful thing. You can vote with your dollar, you can express your opinion freely and you can ally yourself with others of like mind. Or you can jump head-first into a pansy-ass civil lawsuit that many of us feel has absolutely zero (or at least very little) merit.
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QFT.
 
D4hPr0 said:
Thats like saying " Johnny can play with this, but you cant"
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You're saying that you can't buy Quaddros?

Nobody that I know of is locked into NVIDIA's consumer products. If SLi on an Intel platform is what you want, grab Quaddros or use older drivers with whatever consumer-level NVIDIA products you want. There are no fences here. The fences come up when you decide that you want to update your drivers or your operating system.
 
Sounds to me like the argument is that nvidia has changed the definition of SLi mid-stream. People who bought SLi-ready video cards were under the impression that they would work in any motherboard with two PCI-e slots. And, in the past, this did work. No mention of needing an nvidia motherboard was made.

Seems to me like nvidia could put itself in the clear by re-stating SLi requirements from this point on. . . and then build drivers that would allow SLi for older products on any motherboard, but disable (in the same way they do now) it for their products on non-nvidia motherboards from here on out.

Either way, I don't believe for a second that the OP is going to sue anyone. People who have lawyers at the ready and are actually willing and competent to sue anyone don't tend to hang around computer enthusiast sites making vague posts as to their intentions. 99.999% of all such posts are either people venting their frustration and possibly trying to "scare" the company they see as their antagonist into action. . . or a cry for attention from strangers.
 
Rufus P Tumbeltin IV said:
You do realize that you can buy a license and install media from mac for $130.
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I actually did not, as none of the guides in that wiki linked to it.
In fact, some of them suggested even what to look for on a torrent site.
A minute or two on Apple's site and I found it. I may actually buy a copy.
Thanks.
 
My $0.02...

NVidia put time and effort in to deliberately disable functionality that already existed to decrease standards-compliant competition. I consider this unacceptable, and believe it goes beyond brand protection into consumer abuse.

Again, that's just my $0.02. Everyone should be entitled to their opinion.
 
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