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Going to war with NVIDIA

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Mr Fox

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The United States Department Of Justice Antitrust Division is Investigating NVIDIA and ATI for price fixing.

In addition there are activities that suggest a deeper investigation on NVIDIA relating to their drivers, and software and feature support on other vendors core logic chipsets.


Excerpted from my letter to USDOJ-ATD:

Tying - The practice of making the sale of one good conditional on the purchase of a second distinctive good
By forcing the purchase of NVIDIA Core Logic Chipsets in order to maintain features in their Graphics Cards as well as locking out competitors Core Logic Chipsets in their Graphics Card Driver Software.
Also by denying Driver support of certain features on competitors Core Logic Chipsets.

Vendor lock-in - Is a situation in which a customer is so dependent on a vendor for products and services that he or she cannot move to another vendor without substantial switching costs, real and/or perceived
By forcing the purchase of NVIDIA Core Logic Chipsets in order to maintain features in their Graphics Cards as well as locking out competitors Core Logic Chipsets in their Graphics Card Driver Software.
Also by denying Driver support of certain features on competitors Core Logic Chipsets.


“The changing definition of “SLI” (Scaleable Link Interface)

Newer supporting graphics card drivers “Lock-Out SLI Functionality on Competitors Core Logic Chipsets.” (IE: Intel 975x)


On the rear panel of the boxes, there is product information collateral that NVIDIA Corp.
feeds to the partners, that manufacture, and distribute NVIDIA-based PCI Express graphics cards.

In the Personal Computer industry it is routine for AMD, Intel, ATI etc. to provide verbatim collateral that their partners must use in all forms of advertising and product information, provided during the sales phase to the potential/prospective customer.

This explanation of what SLI is appears on the rear panel of my product box:

“What is SLI ? How does it Work?
An NVIDIA SLI system requires a PCI Express motherboard that supports two physical connectors that are capable of having two NVIDIA-based PCI Express graphics cards plugged into them. Joined by the NVIDIA SLI connector, the two graphics cards power one monitor, delivering earth shattering PC performance. SLI requires a PCI Express motherboard, and both graphics cards must be the exact same model number and from the same vendor. For example, two GeForce 7800 GT OC PCI Express cards from BFG Technologies.”

NVIDIA produces GPU chips, and does proof of concept development that the partners use in the development of their product. The consumer depends upon NVIDIA for graphics driver software.

(See Scanned Box Images Below)

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/9237/whatisslikf4.jpg

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/5627/systemrequirementsmk2.jpg


PCI/SIG http://www.pcisig.com/home is the PCI Express interoperability specifications consortium that assures add-on card communications protocols are compatible thru all PC platforms.

All PCI Express motherboards and Graphics Cards are built to be compliant to that specification regardless of core logic chipset, or manufacturer.

My graphics cards will not function in SLI mode with this (Intel 975x)Core Logic Chipset with current NVIDIA Graphics Drivers.

NVIDIA has changed the definition of SLI since the purchase of my graphics cards, and locked out competitive compliant Core Logic Chipsets in their Graphics Drivers software. It now requires NVIDIA Core Logic Chipsets only.

This is not a hardware issue, as in the past with older video card drivers,(pre 88.55) you could edit your Windows XP registry to enable the second graphics slot.

NVIDIA in their drivers beyond 88.55 have enabled aggressive overwriting to not allow the user to alter the Windows XP registry in this manner. Editing the registry in this manner does not infringe upon NVIDIA software intellectual property, as you are editing the Windows XP registry.


Per below:

Step 1. Click the Windows' "Start" button, click on "Run", type "regedit" and click the Ok button.

Step 2. Navigate to "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video\" where you'll find a list of keys identifying all the installed so far video cards.

Step 3. Find which are the two keys representing the currently installed 2 video cards in your system (look for "Device Description" in the \0000 under the display id key).

Step 4. Now you have to insert the following keys under the main display key (or modify their values if they are already present):

\0000
MB_Capable REG_BINARY 01 00 00 00
MB_Enable REG_BINARY 01 00 00 00

\0001
MB_Enable REG_BINARY 01 00 00 00




http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8622/reg1pe4.jpg



http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8844/reg2xw5.jpg




• In the Above product information collateral no where is the phrase “NVIDIA SLI READY” this change came later in the game, and the proper information, was never communicated properly during the sales phase, to the potential/prospective customers.

“An NVIDIA SLI system requires a PCI Express motherboard that supports two physical connectors that are capable of having two NVIDIA-based PCI Express graphics cards plugged into them.”

• This collateral came from NVIDIA and BFG tech. as a partner was required to use this collateral verbatim as supplied by their supplier.

• Because of this issue, I have no official SLI support and can only use older drivers; this limits me from upgrading to Windows Vista as I will lose SLI functionality.

• NVIDIA has effectively shielded itself from the end users, thru their manufacturing, and distribution partners that they can then ignore, as they are in effect the partners revenue source.

• BFG Technologies has attempted in good faith to influence NVIDIA but at this point this is a political issue, and BFG Technologies hands are tied.

• I personally am at a dead end from NVIDIA’s actions when it comes to something as simple as Driver Support for SLI on anyone else’s Core Logic Chipsets.

• This issue effects thousands of NVIDIA’s Partners Customers and some form of relief is needed from NVIDIA’s unscrupulous business practices.

• I have paid for the hardware and all associated rights, and am being denied proper ongoing product support and usage based upon information that was not made available during the sales phase.

• Intel developed and is the primary supporter of PCI Express

• NVIDIA Quaddro Graphics cards are not affected by the SLI Lockout on Intel Core Logic Chipsets. These are used in Enterprise CAD workstations primarily.

• NVIDIA has chosen to operate in a monopolistic fashion, and is sacrificing it’s partners’ customer relationships for simple greed.

• At this point because of the Major Issues that exist with NVIDIA Core Logic I must request relief in the form of forced driver support for my Graphics Cards.



What SLI is was clearly defined in open statements on the product boxes in black and green. NVIDIA produced that collateral, and should be held responsible for the support of their products, within that clearly defined definition. The trademarked phrase “SLI Ready” were absent from this collateral.

By attempting to subjugate that after the fact is a deplorable act, and shows total disregard for their customers, and partners.

Because of NVIDIA’s poor Core Logic Chipsets for Intel Core 2 Duo CPU’s it puts the end user in a very tough position to either buy their poor product, or loose feature support buying a competitor. Intel, pioneered and drove PCI-Express their Core Logic Chipsets are fully compliant with the specifications.
 
So you are going to sue NVIDIA in order to make them unlock their drivers to enable SLI on non-NVIDIA chipset based motherboards?
 
Dan_D said:
So you are going to sue NVIDIA in order to make them unlock their drivers to enable SLI on non-NVIDIA chipset based motherboards?


At this point The USDOJ-ATD and MI-AG are involved... i'm waiting to hear back to decide if a Civil Action beyond the above is in order.

I'm game to any input here.. what do you suggest ?
 
Mr Fox said:
At this point The USDOJ-ATD and MI-AG are involved... i'm waiting to hear back to decide if a Civil Action beyond the above is in order.

I'm game to any input here.. what do you suggest ?

I am not suggesting a damn thing. I don't think it is appropriate at this point.

I think alot of people are dissatisfied with NVIDIA's Intel chipsets, and AMD ones for that matter. The difference is they were the only game in town for AMD systems, and they are still somewhat ahead of ATI in features. For the Intel platform, people are really upset. The NVIDIA 680i problems have been rampant, and some machines still have bugs more than a month after construction that aren't solved. NVIDIA isn't moving fast enough to get the job done.

Intel motherboards are frankly more attractive to the end user, but without SLI support, we are left with no choice but to dump i975x/P965 Express and go with the 680i based boards if we want official SLI support. Which is needed for anything newer than a 7900GTX. Your statement has many valid points.
 
So you are going to sue NVIDIA in order to make them unlock their drivers to enable SLI on non-NVIDIA chipset based motherboards?

Uh, yeah, that's what I gather from it as well.

That has nothing to do with Tying or Price-Fixing though.

If the argument of Tying is that the only way to run SLI is on an nVidia Chipset... I think that argument is shaky at best. No one is stopping you from writing your own drivers. nVidia is not stopping anyone from writing their own drivers. You are in no way 'tied' to their core logic at all, there is just no 'official' support.

I also fail to see where Price-Fixing comes into play
 
Mr Fox said:
At this point The USDOJ-ATD and MI-AG are involved... i'm waiting to hear back to decide if a Civil Action beyond the above is in order.

I'm game to any input here.. what do you suggest ?

You need a new hobby guy. :rolleyes:
 
EQTakeOffense said:
Uh, yeah, that's what I gather from it as well.

That has nothing to do with Tying or Price-Fixing though.

If the argument of Tying is that the only way to run SLI is on an nVidia Chipset... I think that argument is shaky at best. No one is stopping you from writing your own drivers. nVidia is not stopping anyone from writing their own drivers. You are in no way 'tied' to their core logic at all, there is just no 'official' support.

I also fail to see where Price-Fixing comes into play

The average consumer can NOT write drivers. This should be taken into consideration. I had an Intel i975x board up until recently, and I did have to switch to a 680i board in order to gain SLI compatibility. There was no other way aside from writing my own drivers to make SLI work with G80 and my system.

In my case, I chose to go SLI and I bought the required hardware. In the original posters situation, I think he's upset that an SLI certified motherboard was not required at the time of purchase. Clearly the package states no such requirements. Newer drivers disabled functionality that was originally in place. Basically, his box won't work as advertised with newer drivers which might be needed to fix games that don't work right, and he's stuck on XP with the older drivers as Vista will require newer Vista specific drivers.

Therefore I can see this guys point.
 
EQTakeOffense said:
Uh, yeah, that's what I gather from it as well.

That has nothing to do with Tying or Price-Fixing though.

If the argument of Tying is that the only way to run SLI is on an nVidia Chipset... I think that argument is shaky at best. No one is stopping you from writing your own drivers. nVidia is not stopping anyone from writing their own drivers. You are in no way 'tied' to their core logic at all, there is just no 'official' support.

I also fail to see where Price-Fixing comes into play


Vendor Lock-In applies because you have no choice.... Buy their stuff or lose features.

Tying also applies because it also make you purchase their Core Logic no matter how flawed it may be. or lose features.


Their Software is proprietary and copywrited any attempt at Reverse Engineering gets you a DMCA Copyright infringement letter from NVIDIA Legal.... if you attempt to distribute it . NGO got that before even a nice request to remove their "SLI any chipset Patch"
 
That's an interesting point. You can't even really write your own drivers because the information needed to do that is not provided to the general public. Additionally, they specifically prohibit modifying their own drivers.
 
The average consumer can NOT write drivers.

I agree. But to argue that only nVidia can write drivers is a flawed logic. If the argument is that nVidia is anti-competitive because they force you to use their drivers, and thus lock you into a their chipset, I don't agree with this. While I agree that currently that is the case, I do not see it as anti-competitive in anyway shape or for. There are many people out there that can write drivers and supply them to the market. They could even sell their products next to nVidia graphics cards. I believe that hardware and software are seperate markets, meaning just because I bought an nVidia card does not mean I have to use their drivers. Just think about all the drivers written for Linux. Fox's logic is logical fallacy as it assumes that drivers and hardware are the same market, but I do not. I view the drivers market as perfect competition, while hardware is an oligopoly. While, yes, nVidia might be anti-competitive in this, that is their right to do so as a company. It is our rights as consumers to find someone who is willing to write a driver, and 'unlock' SLI on non-nVidia chipsets. This is to say, there is nothing stopping someone from unlocking SLI on non-nVidia chipsets if it's just a driver that's locking it.

Their Software is proprietary and copywrited any attempt at Reverse Engineering gets you a DMCA Copyright infringement letter from NVIDIA Legal.... if you attempt to distribute it . NGO got that before even a nice request to remove their "SLI any chipset Patch"

This is what I would attack. I think that law is what needs to be changed.
 
I agree with Dan here. I don't think that writing your own drivers is an out for this. I'm sure all hardware teams have highly (sometimes) trained professionals to write their drivers.

And what happens to all the new bug fixes that are constantly released.... I don't think an individual could keep up, much less a whole team devoted to it (some of the time)
 
Think about it, if you could use Crossfire or SLI on any motherboard chipset of your choosing, then NVIDIA, and ATI would have to step it up a notch to compete with Intel in the chipset market. Which is hard to do to say the least.
 
So you had to "hack" or modify the registry to get SLI to work on the non nvdia system before the driver update, and the update disabled that. That means the feature is not enabled. The statement on the box "An NVIDIA SLI system requires a PCI Express motherboard that supports two physical connectors that are capable of having two NVIDIA-based PCI Express graphics cards plugged into them." Clearly states that a motherboard is required that can accept 2 NVDIA cards. That can mean that the slots have to accept the pci-e form and the chipset of the motherboard must also be compatible.

SLI is an Nvidia technology it only stands to reason that an Nvidia motherboard chipset is required.

If you don't like it, that's why there is competition. Buy ATI and show Nvidia where it will hurt them, in the cash flow area.
 
I also do not believe that hardware and drivers are seperate products or markets. A driver is software, which is a different market, but drivers are needed to ensure that a piece of hardware works and works correctly.

Drivers need to be legally defined as a seperate type of software. You can't treat drivers like you would Microsoft Excel in reference to a video card.
 
Just, so you know, I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist. So, I personally would like to see all the laws protecting nVidia disapear, and allow people to write their own drivers. I personally don't think this is going to go anywhere, and I personally blame it on laws set up to protect buisness (DMCA). Just to give you an idea of where I'm comming from.

I also do not believe that hardware and drivers are seperate products or markets.

I need gas to run my car, but you don't consider the gas market the same as the car market. Yeah, they are related but you don't group gas and cars together in the same market.
 
Lebowski said:
So you had to "hack" or modify the registry to get SLI to work on the non nvdia system before the driver update, and the update disabled that. That means the feature is not enabled. The statement on the box "An NVIDIA SLI system requires a PCI Express motherboard that supports two physical connectors that are capable of having two NVIDIA-based PCI Express graphics cards plugged into them." Clearly states that a motherboard is required that can accept 2 NVDIA cards. That can mean that the slots have to accept the pci-e form and the chipset of the motherboard must also be compatible.

SLI is an Nvidia technology it only stands to reason that an Nvidia motherboard chipset is required.

If you don't like it, that's why there is competition. Buy ATI and show Nvidia where it will hurt them, in the cash flow area.

I hate to say it, but this is a good point.

EQTakeOffense said:
Just, so you know, I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist. So, I personally would like to see all the laws protecting nVidia disapear, and allow people to write their own drivers. I personally don't think this is going to go anywhere, and I personally blame it on laws set up to protect buisness (DMCA).

I don't care if people can write their drivers or not. I don't want to learn to do it and I don't want to be dependant on open source software of any kind. I've found some of it to be very good and some of it is outright shit. You also can't depend on open source for support. They've got no stake in their product because you use it at your own risk and they don't get paid by you downloading and using it.
 
AMD RULES said:
this is pretty stupid...just upgrade your damn motherboard :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


The board is compliant to the PCI/SIG spec.... and the game change mid stream.... Not my issue... i'm the Customer here... not the doormat..

NVIDIA CORE LOGIC SUCKS.... I have fought with it for 4 years on 3 different AMD Rigs... same stuff everyday... quirks and data corruption.... they are the FORD of chipsets.

None of their drivers have ever been right, or good.

975x is like a Rock.... but more like a Honda
 
You also can't depend on open source for support. They've got no stake in their product because you use it at your own risk.

Thus why communism fails. I'm not saying make it open source, quite the contrary, I say leave the drivers out and let the market supply the drivers for you. Yeah, nVidia can supply their own drivers if they want, but if you don't like them, go spend $10 on Omega drivers.

Hell, I'd be willing to put captial up for anyone who wanted to market their own ATi/nVidia drivers.
 
EQTakeOffense said:
Thus why communism fails. I'm not saying make it open source, quite the contrary, I say leave the drivers out and let the market supply the drivers for you. Yeah, nVidia can supply their own drivers if they want, but if you don't like them, go spend $10 on Omega drivers.

You also can't depend on the market for too much either.
 
You also can't depend on the market for too much either.

Like I said, I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist, so I completely disagree on that point. But, we'll leave at the old cliche: 'agree to disagree'. :eek:
 
Well what are you expecting? People to form development teams to write drivers and plan on selling them?

I don't.

If people started really having to write their own drivers from the bottom up, they'll form as open source groups and go that route.
 
Dan_D said:
I hate to say it, but this is a good point.



I don't care if people can write their drivers or not. I don't want to learn to do it and I don't want to be dependant on open source software of any kind. I've found some of it to be very good and some of it is outright shit. You also can't depend on open source for support. They've got no stake in their product because you use it at your own risk and they don't get paid by you downloading and using it.


The chipset is fully Compatible... that is what the PCI/SIG spec is all about.... this is a software lock out of compatible hardware.
NVIDIA's collateral was very open statements.... please do not add your interpretations that do not exist... this is in Black and Green. they (NVIDIA) changed the game late in 2005.


I'm sorry Dan that was not directed at you... quoted wrong person.....
 
Mr Fox said:
The chipset is fully Compatible... that is what the PCI/SIG spec is all about.... this is a software lock out of compatible hardware.
NVIDIA's collateral was very open statements.... please do not add your interpretations that do not exist... this is in Black and Green. they (NVIDIA) changed the game late in 2005.


I'm sorry Dan that was not directed at you... quoted wrong person.....

I understand, you were trying to quote the person I quoted. I understand what you are saying. Lebowski was interpreting meaning that isn't explicitly stated. You are talking about the literal meaning of what was on the box and how it was changed after the fact.

What hardware are you using right now anyway?
 
they (NVIDIA) changed the game late in 2005.

I'm not saying they didn't. What I am saying is that it's the Governments fault for providing protection through things like DMCA that is the issue.

I blame the Government, not the Coporation.

If people started really having to write their own drivers from the bottom up, they'll form as open source groups and go that route.

Not if I hire them and market my drivers to compete with nVidia. This happened with Battlefield/D.I.C.E and even Counter-Strike with Half-Life.
 
Dan_D said:
I understand, you were trying to quote the person I quoted. I understand what you are saying. Lebowski was interpreting meaning that isn't explicitly stated. You are talking about the literal meaning of what was on the box and how it was changed after the fact.

What hardware are you using right now anyway?



Thanks Dan !!

Glad you understood.

Intel Xeon 3060@3.4
ASUS P5W DH
2x7800 GT
2x1024 MB Crucial PC 6400 C4
Scythe Inf
 
Dan_D said:
Well what are you expecting? People to form development teams to write drivers and plan on selling them?

I don't.
I don't think many would purchase them, if the majority would just have the hardware and download them as is.

If you saw this happen, maybe the hardware people themselves might start charging for updates just like McAfee and Norton do for virus upgrades.
 
If you saw this happen, maybe the hardware people themselves might start charging for updates just like McAfee and Norton do for virus upgrades.

Exactly. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, but that is the eact same model driver companies could use.

Take this one step further, if you have multiple companies competeing for drivers, then driver quality would surely increase.
 
ummm... is this kinda like complaining that your honda doesn't take chevy parts?

no wrongdoing there...
 
EQTakeOffense said:
Take this one step further, if you have multiple companies competeing for drivers, then driver quality would surely increase.

**Not to get too far off topic** Maybe that would happen in the long run... the whole competition aspect...

But I think people would start complaining if everyone started charging for drivers. We would reflect back on the good 'ole days when we didn't have to pay.

In any case, I guess I could see why you would feel that way.... but I have a question (don't flame me please) SLI is nvidia's technology... they should be able to use it as they wish...
BUT... as the box says.. that's kinda misleading.... I guess I can see it both ways here a little bit..

If anyone could shed more light, I'd like more insight on this myself.
 
Mr Fox said:
The board is compliant to the PCI/SIG spec.... and the game change mid stream.... Not my issue... i'm the Customer here... not the doormat..

NVIDIA CORE LOGIC SUCKS.... I have fought with it for 4 years on 3 different AMD Rigs... same stuff everyday... quirks and data corruption.... they are the FORD of chipsets.

None of their drivers have ever been right, or good.

975x is like a Rock.... but more like a Honda
sounds more like they are the mitsubishi of chipsets.

and honda isnt very reliable either. asian car does NOT mean good. but lets not go into that, thats how the car forum got locked up
 
**Not to get too far off topic** Maybe that would happen in the long run... the whole competition aspect...

But I think people would start complaining if everyone started charging for drivers. We would reflect back on the good 'ole days when we didn't have to pay.

Well, no one likes to pay for anything.... So much to say, but that would get me way off topic. :cool:
 
AMD RULES said:
this is pretty stupid...just upgrade your damn motherboard :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


And how is that????? 680i has a long ways to go to match the 975X. Why should we go buy a new motherboard.

Imagine if you bought a PS3 and Sony only supported the 1080p res on Sony TV's just to get more TV sales. Im surprised Nvidia has gotten away with this for such a long time.

What gets me though is why is SLI enabled on Intel workstation motherboards for the Quadro cards???? Because Nvidia doesnt have anything for that market plus no one would buy their unstable chipsets to do professional work.

On top of that they say that the 975X cant support SLI even though Intel workstation boards are very similar to the 975X.

If you like being BS'ed and getting it handed to you, thats your choice. I like to buy what I want and not be forced to purchase something I dont want.
 
I like to buy what I want and have the flexibility and not be forced to purchase something I dont want.

Then get the laws protecting companies repealed instead of attacking the companies themselves.
 
RAutrey said:
You need a new hobby guy. :rolleyes:
QFMT! Man, why dont you sue ATi for the samething then. You can't have X-Fire on non ATi chipset M/B's. Also just so you know, SLi is also a BIOS/chipset support as well, no just video drivers and such.
 
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