GameStop Exploiting Devs And Consumers

[LeninGHOLA]

That's why devs need more avenues to self publish. We, as gamers, want to give you money.

 

[dgz]

SWTOR relies on micro transactions in addition to subscriptions to pay for infrastructure.
LoL also has micro transactions that bring in revenue, in which most people happily pay.



Older games were also far more simplified compared to current titles, plus as you already stated, there's no requirement to further support the game after release in those days other than basic telephone/mail services.

Oh please, spare us the expensive infrastructure argument. They can easily offload realistically 90% of all server hosting globally to 3rd parties or anyone really. Host a site and all other crap for additional services. That will keep the cost of service low.

 

[Disposed]

Ok guys I am a developer myself and I want to cover some points that most people don't realize. Big games cost 30 to 100 million to make. Not including marketing costs etc. developers normally have to make dev cost plus marketing costs which is upwards of 40 to 60% (which is completely out of the devs control). Lets use 50% for example. As example a40 million dollar game actually needs 60 million to break even. Devs don't get money until that happens. Here is how you get to those final numbers. A $60 game. 30% of that goes to the retailer. So we are at 42 dollars. The console manufacturer gets 9-10 per. So we are down to 32 dollars. That means said game needs to sell around 2000000 units to break even. Foreign sales work differently becuase the foreign rhq keeps the marjority of the money and the money sent over is used for breakeven so that is a hell of a lot less in contribution.

A lot of games don't sell that big and then people don't understand why a game they liked doesn't get a seqel.

Devs themselves are back of the bus getting money. That is why there is interest in sharing revenue. They get screwed. Gamestop makes money. The publisher gets money and the ev gets screwed.

Even worse there are majors pubswho do what i call indentured servetude contracts. Day one dollar one royalties. But the royalty is what is used to calculate breakeven. So that wonderful 20% royalty actually takes 5 times as long to break even. My previous example is if a publisher wants to get made whole asap so the devs might get money. This servitude contract is to force them to take the next gig probably with not as good terms.

What he is talking about is hope.y getting devs get some money at the endof the day.

So you know i launched the digital distribution games for psn when i was at sony. I believe it is in the future whn the US infrastructure can support it. According to the last round of US numbers a lot of people are still in the 4megabit and below range because they live in places where they have very little choice i isps. That makes digital a problem. I've got 30 down and it still was a long time to download Uncharted 3. So with 4 down which works out to 512k actual down a 30 gig download just isn't practicle. And that is even with planning on actually getting all the banwidth.

I've been doing this for 23 years. They devs are always the one getting the short end of the stick. The greedy SOBs at the publisher see money and the greedy SOBs at retail see money and all to oftem devs get screwed.

Cheers

Retailer markup at 30%? Sounds like whoever negotiates that for your company is brain dead because actual game markups are about 10% at the retailer.

30 to 100 million to make a game? SO full of shit... Games that cost over 40 million are extremely rare... Considering the top 10 biggest game budgets ever ranges from 45-100 million its pretty easy to say you're full of shit on that. 10-30 million is the realistic amount to make a AAA title. I mean seriously... A game gets a $50 million budget and its news...

For someone who claims 23 years experience i find it odd your claims are so obviously wrong.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

Yea, anything under about $20 million is considered the bottom end of AAA budgets at this point. Especially in the US.

 

[Burticus]

Using this logic: If I buy a used car, then sell it at a profit, should I send a check to the vehicle manufacturer?

I mean, is bad enough they charge for access to even play the damn games online in the first place, they get enough of a cut from that business.

The car analogy doesn't work the same. After the initial sale, the auto mfg's continue to make money selling parts and through service at their dealerships. If you choose to avoid the dealerships for service then good for you.

On the other hand, I cannot find an example that fits either. CD's / dvd's/ blu-rays do kind of fit into the resale model, but because the initial cost is so much lower ($10 vs $60) a huge amount of people would just rather buy it new or download it.

 

[kbrickley]

Retailer markup at 30%? Sounds like whoever negotiates that for your company is brain dead because actual game markups are about 10% at the retailer.

30 to 100 million to make a game? SO full of shit... Games that cost over 40 million are extremely rare... Considering the top 10 biggest game budgets ever ranges from 45-100 million its pretty easy to say you're full of shit on that. 10-30 million is the realistic amount to make a AAA title. I mean seriously... A game gets a $50 million budget and its news...

For someone who claims 23 years experience i find it odd your claims are so obviously wrong.

Each of the digital retailers take 30% (Steam, iTunes, Amazon, Google) ... if the physical retailers don't get that then they should stop selling physical and switch to digital immediately or renegotiate their pricing

 

[Snowdog]

I've been doing this for 23 years. They devs are always the one getting the short end of the stick. The greedy SOBs at the publisher see money and the greedy SOBs at retail see money and all to oftem devs get screwed.

Seriously you do something for 23 years that you feel is screwing you over? Maybe you should have moved on long ago.

Also I never met a dev that didn't have a salary. So individual developers are getting paid while the game is in development. Perhaps they don't get bonuses until the game earns a profit, but that is to be expected. Perhaps you meant the development shop doesn't make money until the game grosses much more than it costs to develop. Again this is just obviously the way the world works (in fact it sounds even worse in the music industry).

Regardless of how unhappy you are with the way money is distributed in the industry, that doesn't mean you get the right to screw over the end user by devaluing the end product by wrecking their ability to resell it if they don't like it.

IMO a game I can't sell is worth much less than one I can. Do you think you will make more money if you sell games blocking used sales, but you can only charge $30 for them. Do you really think limiting resale will really double your sales?

I have only paid >$40 for boxed games that don't have any server DRM, and I would never pay >$20 for any digital distribution game that makes resale impossible.

The future is undoubtedly digital with some kind of Server DRM like Steam/Apps stores. So you will get your wish of killing used sales but I also expect prices will largely fall into the sub $20 range, so in a decade, I expect the devs will all be complaining how digital distribution is ruining the industry.

 

[SpecTP]

someone smack this guy upside his head with the first sale doctrine.

 

[Jaer44]

Oh please, spare us the expensive infrastructure argument. They can easily offload realistically 90% of all server hosting globally to 3rd parties or anyone really. Host a site and all other crap for additional services. That will keep the cost of service low.

Even so, your example still costs money.

 

[ounumen]

Love these threads. Reading all the whiny little turds crying about how the games should be cheaper LOL.

 

[Disposed]

Love these threads. Reading all the whiny little turds crying about how the games should be cheaper LOL.

Which is exactly what nobody is doing. We have people saying they should cost more and people saying fuck that but im not seeing anyone say cheaper...

 

[dgz]

Even so, your example still costs money.

So does living. What's your point?

God forbid people receive support for the product they legally bought. It's called warranty for physical objects.

 

[Croaker]

This is my last post on this because those who think they know it all just don't want to listen. Wholesale is 42 for a full price console game. Claim that you know better but you are full of shit. PAc games are cheaper bcuae the is no licensing fee which i tried to point out but that seems to be irrelavent to some of you as well. I am not saying that you shouln't but used games, but gamestop tuening 150 profit per full price sell and multiple turns on the same used games is hurting devs. Why do you think they push a 5 dollar cheaper used versus the new version. They makea crap ton more profit on it.

As to why i do this and for so long, there are experiences i want to share with people and there is nothing better than knowing that what i do is putting smiles on peoples faces.

When people come up with methods to reduce cost publishers for the last 4 years have been turning down larger titles with sub 20million budgets becuase marketing considers a mid priced title and assume an automatic it won't sell. It is rediculous that they want to see a 25 million budget plus to be considered a good game. Don't look at the game just the numbers damn stupid.

Lastly as to the bullshit about o ly 10 games costing 30 to 100 to make i could list off over 50 current gen games off the top of my head that are in that category but i would be violating a crap ton of NDAs and peoples confidences which would in turn put them in violation of their NDAs.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

I don't get why you guys would want to beat up on someone who is a developer and has been doing it forever. I don't think anyone really likes their job all the time, but once you start doing it, you sort of lose the ability to learn new things and are adverse to change. There's nothing wrong with that and it's totally normal to be in that kinda rut. I bet a lot of other people out there are too so OMG, be at least a little bit civil to Croaker.

I can also confirm that there's a lot of NDAs out there in the industry that would get violated if people talked too much. As an insider in the video games thing, you have to be careful what you say because you never know who's watching. That means he can only say he knows, but he really can't say what in specific.

 

[Jaer44]

So does living. What's your point?

God forbid people receive support for the product they legally bought. It's called warranty for physical objects.

warranties only cost when the item needs repaired,where you're trying compare it to server cost, salaries of the team behind the servers, community managers/software tech support. It's just not the right comparison, no matter how much you try.

 

[GoldenTiger]

Retailer markup at 30%? Sounds like whoever negotiates that for your company is brain dead because actual game markups are about 10% at the retailer.

30 to 100 million to make a game? SO full of shit... Games that cost over 40 million are extremely rare... Considering the top 10 biggest game budgets ever ranges from 45-100 million its pretty easy to say you're full of shit on that. 10-30 million is the realistic amount to make a AAA title. I mean seriously... A game gets a $50 million budget and its news...

For someone who claims 23 years experience i find it odd your claims are so obviously wrong.

20-40mil is considered bottom-of-the-ladder for a big AAA game nowadays. You really have no idea what you're talking about here. For someone who claims no experience, I find it obvious why your claims are so clearly wrong.

 

[ZodaEX]

I don't get why you guys would want to beat up on someone who is a developer and has been doing it forever. I don't think anyone really likes their job all the time, but once you start doing it, you sort of lose the ability to learn new things and are adverse to change. There's nothing wrong with that and it's totally normal to be in that kinda rut. I bet a lot of other people out there are too so OMG, be at least a little bit civil to Croaker.

I can also confirm that there's a lot of NDAs out there in the industry that would get violated if people talked too much. As an insider in the video games thing, you have to be careful what you say because you never know who's watching. That means he can only say he knows, but he really can't say what in specific.

Beating up game developers is wrong! I'm with you brother!

 

[Jaer44]

So does living. What's your point?

God forbid people receive support for the product they legally bought. It's called warranty for physical objects.

I forgot to add, specifically for xbox, for the indie titles it's a 10k fee per patch/update (or was until they recently dropped that fee for the 360 platform). One could assume it's more for AAA/retail releases.

 

[ZodaEX]

I forgot to add, specifically for xbox, for the indie titles it's a 10k fee per patch/update (or was until they recently dropped that fee for the 360 platform). One could assume it's more for AAA/retail releases.

The fee hasn't been dropped yet but it will (supposedly)

 

[Klrgoten]

if the new games were only $20 to buy... no one would need to do this used game crap

 

[bacon]

I completely disagree with this. When movies are shown on cable, or rented out from RedBox or watched on Netflix, do you think that those companies reap all the profits and nothing goes back to the content owner? Because you're whacked out of your melon if you think that's the case. Selling a game used for $5 less than new and getting that as pure profit which the dev never sees is the reason that so many game companies cut jobs all the time. I'm not saying that the entire cost should go back to the dev, but even a portion of those used game sales going back (which is a legitimate expectation) would do wonders for the industry.

And if you think that lowering prices will cause people to buy new, you're similarly crazy. The cost isn't the concept; the fact that it can be had for less, regardless of the original price, is what will drive sales.

If the gaming companies wanted to undercut GS's margins they could offer the game new for less money. It could put them out of business if they were priced accordingly, they can't operate at a loss for long before they disappear.

 

[Snowdog]

If devs want to give me a money back satisfaction guarantee, then we can do away with used. But somehow I don't think they would prefer used to that.

 

[ZodaEX]

If devs want to give me a money back satisfaction guarantee, then we can do away with used.

The world doesn't revolve around you.

 

[Snowdog]

Dang no edit. I think they would prefer used over giving us a satisfaction guarantee.

The gaming industry is working on removing our last alternative to deal with unsatisfactory product.

If I buy a game and I don't like it, I already can't return it, and now they want to fix it so I can't sell it either.

 

[Disposed]

20-40mil is considered bottom-of-the-ladder for a big AAA game nowadays. You really have no idea what you're talking about here. For someone who claims no experience, I find it obvious why your claims are so clearly wrong.

40 million + is the top of average im not sure where you are pulling your magically inflated figures for but you are wrong. There are crazy 100 mil + exceptions like the GTA games and SWTOR but claiming that 20-40 mil is the bottom of the ladder when the vast majority of AAA games fall dead in that range is incredibly ignorant.

People need to take a step back and look realistically at these "costs" most of the time its complete bullshit or uber marketing.

 

[GoldenTiger]

If devs want to give me a money back satisfaction guarantee, then we can do away with used. But somehow I don't think they would prefer used to that.

Sure, so long as you let me decide whether you got your money's worth out of the game as a metric I can use to decide whether to issue the refund!

-Signed, a game dev.

 

[GoldenTiger]

40 million + is the top of average im not sure where you are pulling your magically inflated figures for but you are wrong. There are crazy 100 mil + exceptions like the GTA games and SWTOR but claiming that 20-40 mil is the bottom of the ladder when the vast majority of AAA games fall dead in that range is incredibly ignorant.

People need to take a step back and look realistically at these "costs" most of the time its complete bullshit or uber marketing.

20mil is the bottom indeed for major AAA titles now. 40mil w/ marketing isn't very rare. 100-200 is much less common, of course. I said 20-40mil being the bottom of the ladder, as in 20mil is, and they go up to 40mil often. Please give up purposefully misinterpreting wording to try to support your incorrect claims on semantics.

 

[Disposed]

Lastly as to the bullshit about o ly 10 games costing 30 to 100 to make i could list off over 50 current gen games off the top of my head that are in that category but i would be violating a crap ton of NDAs and peoples confidences which would in turn put them in violation of their NDAs.

So you as an anonymous nobody could make a list of games supporting your argument (Lies) but you would be breaking NDAs (Again bullshit)...

How convenient, except that most of these companies are public and fucking report the exact costs. So how is it that the public companies are reporting average costs between 20-40 yet your magical list that you cant share is astronomically higher?

And i said 10 games with budgets higher than 45 million. When a game gets a budget that high its news but according to you they are all that expensive.

 

[Disposed]

20mil is the bottom indeed for major AAA titles now. 40mil w/ marketing isn't very rare. 100-200 is much less common, of course. I said 20-40mil being the bottom of the ladder, as in 20mil is, and they go up to 40mil often. Please give up purposefully misinterpreting wording to try to support your incorrect claims on semantics.

Misinterpreting wording? Read your post again.

You have to actually explain your range of figures yet im purposefully misinterpreting.

20-40 cant be the bottom of the ladder of 40 is above average. Quit playing games with words and wording instead of accusing me of purposefully misinterpreting.

 

[Jaer44]

Well to put a little perspective on it, Journey, the PS3 game, cost 5.5m to make. That's just an indie game.

 

[rudy]

Drop the prices on the games and more people will buy them new. It's not rocket science to figure this shit out.

Think a little please, how can you drop the price of a game and beat a used game? You can't because no matter how low you drop the game price someone can sell the used game cheaper.

 

[Klrgoten]

Just look at D3 for example... sold over 10m copies according to eurogamer... 20-40m is a pretty low on the ladder if you were to compare... granted, it's not a console game but to gross that many copies @ $39/ea... you can see where that upper tier range is

 

[LeninGHOLA]

So you as an anonymous nobody could make a list of games supporting your argument (Lies) but you would be breaking NDAs (Again bullshit)...

How convenient, except that most of these companies are public and fucking report the exact costs. So how is it that the public companies are reporting average costs between 20-40 yet your magical list that you cant share is astronomically higher?

And i said 10 games with budgets higher than 45 million. When a game gets a budget that high its news but according to you they are all that expensive.

Croaker isn't anonymous. He's definitely on the game dev side as an exec producer.

 

[ZodaEX]

Just look at D3 for example... sold over 10m copies according to eurogamer... 20-40m is a pretty low on the ladder if you were to compare... granted, it's not a console game but to gross that many copies @ $39/ea... you can see where that upper tier range is

Are you talking about Doom 3 or Diablo 3?

 

[Snowdog]

The costs, distribution of earnings, unsustainability of AAA games are largely red herrings in this discussion.

If your business model is broken, messing with used sales is not going to fix it. These are really separate issues.

Like we have seen with XBox1 reversal, messing with used/lending of games will likely cost devs much more than the imaginary windfall they think they will get by taxing/controlling/eliminating used sales.

 

[ol1bit]

And yet automobile manufacturers don't cry bloody mary when I buy my used car.
Shouldn't THEY also get a cut from that second sale!?!?! /s

I don't see why software should be different. You were compensated for the retail copy that was sold. It was then sold a second time, maybe *scoff* even a THIRD TIME. You are not entitled to those.

Deal with it.

Agreed!

 

[haste.]

And yet automobile manufacturers don't cry bloody mary when I buy my used car.
Shouldn't THEY also get a cut from that second sale!?!?! /s

I don't see why software should be different. You were compensated for the retail copy that was sold. It was then sold a second time, maybe *scoff* even a THIRD TIME. You are not entitled to those.

Deal with it.

So late to the race, but I felt I had to post a reply to this. Your analogy is awful. First you must understand the business model of an automobile dealership (which I was a finance manager for a short time).

Auto dealerships make little money off the new auto sales. You are given a quota to meet on a month by month basis, but all the real money is in used car sales. New brands and brings the customer in the door, but used is the money driver.

If Gamestop was willing to give nearly all of the new sale money to the developers and in turn reap the benefits of used sales, then yes you would have a valid claim. But because they are getting it on both ends, they are indeed screwing us all. Unfortunately the general public are completely oblivious to how this all works so they mindlessly defend companies that are trying to shit on them. Gamestop does no good for anyone. Open your eyes.

 

[Disposed]

So late to the race, but I felt I had to post a reply to this. Your analogy is awful. First you must understand the business model of an automobile dealership (which I was a finance manager for a short time).

Auto dealerships make little money off the new auto sales. You are given a quota to meet on a month by month basis, but all the real money is in used car sales. New brands and brings the customer in the door, but used is the money driver.

If Gamestop was willing to give nearly all of the new sale money to the developers and in turn reap the benefits of used sales, then yes you would have a valid claim. But because they are getting it on both ends, they are indeed screwing us all. Unfortunately the general public are completely oblivious to how this all works so they mindlessly defend companies that are trying to shit on them. Gamestop does no good for anyone. Open your eyes.

His analogy is awful? A car dealership is not an auto manufacturer. How can you say the real money is in used?? The real money is in the financing deals, services and add ons not used sales, not even close.

 

[WBurchnall]

Drop the prices on the games and more people will buy them new. It's not rocket science to figure this shit out.

People buy used games because they are cheaper. Dropping the price on new games would also drop the price on used games. Used games would therefore still be cheaper and still be bought. Its akin to saying people cheap theatres would have no customers if regular theatres dropped their prices. In reality, cheap-matinee style theatres would just become even cheaper.

 

[Ticker305]

Gamestop doesnt rip anyone off they offer a service just like a pawn shop, they are essentially the middleman for people who want it right now and dont want to put in the extra effort.time of selling it themselves, your basically paying them for convenience.

The only thing that I can think of that comes close to what this guy is proposing is the inheritance tax, which is such a ridiculous concept only government could get away with it.