Game Developers Must Avoid The ‘Wage-Slave’ Attitude

[Deleted member 93354]

You're also most likely living in an area with a high cost of living as a software engineer in the video game industry. The industry has a sunshine tax. You get paid way less than you're worth, and told to work longer hours, because some kid right out of college will do your job for way less. And then they'll burn you out and hire that kid. Too many people go into the industry with incorrect assumptions about the industry, only to learn that, wait, this really is just a job.

.

That's the pessimist view. I have yet to find one person fired who worked hard and was competitant at a good company. I have worked from small 2 software engineer shops up to over 100. We hire engineers in their 80s. No joke.

As to the sunshine tax...that is what you chose. I live in Pennsylvania and commuted 2 hours each way every day for 5 years. That was my choice. Now I work closer to home and while the work is harder and not as exciting it has served my family well. it's all about the choices you make in life. Don't go blaming others for your choices.

 

[Kogan]

Great article. The concepts Alex talks about actually apply to most job types, and is primarily the result of less-motivated/more-lazy/less-intelligent people thinking they deserve as much as the greats / the superstars of their respective industry.

I don't in any way mean that as an insult. It's just human nature that when you see someone like you achieving something, you think you can achieve it too. And if you can't achieve it as easily as that person, you look for external things to blame it on rather than issues within yourself. Sure, you can see a great game, decide you want to be a programmer, and take programming classes for 5 years, but that may not be enough to make you better than someone who has more passion and natural programming skills, who never went to school. Should that make you upset? No. Humans aren't equally intelligent or equally good at the same things. Either accept your position or move on to something else.

The reason why individuals stay within these large companies for extended periods of time, despite their constant complaining, is that they're afraid. What they're afraid of varies per person: Change, Working on your own, Admitting that you're not as good as you think you are. Or maybe they're just in it for the resume: from learning from the facebook generation, it seems as though people place too much value on what other people think of them. It doesn't surprise me that they're using their "career" and resume as a sort of measuring device that they'll proudly display to show how much better they are..

Oh well, time to get back to my slave-wage job. Sometimes, I think I'm the only happy person here

 

[jwcalla]

I can't imagine too many good software developers going into game development for an established company (small business / start-up is something else). When you do the math on the actual hourly wage it's pretty poor. It's basically a bottom-of-the-barrel software job and gets bottom-of-the-barrel developers, which explains why most games are complete trainwrecks.

I know Gabe Newell has said he prefers the opposite approach. I.e., paying developers really well, in order to get the best in the industry. But Valve has a whole bunch of other structural issues that sort of prevents them from producing good software.

 

[tetris42]

I love all these posts stating that because people can quit their jobs (regardless of financial or family situation) and work really hard to find another one, any and all workplace exploitation is A-okay.

 

[Zion Halcyon]

I love all these posts stating that because people can quit their jobs (regardless of financial or family situation) and work really hard to find another one, any and all workplace exploitation is A-okay.

Not exactly, although I do feel the "find a new job" is a bit of a glib reply.

There is something to finding a new job if you are unhappy with where you are at. And heck, spread the news if you can of why you didn't want to work there and why. Maybe if enough people do that, if will force a culture change - you never know.

What I do know is that there are a ton of crap IT jobs out there, but unless its Silicon Valley or game development, its rarely so dire as people make it out to be. Many of my crap IT jobs still paid a decent wage, and even as I gained experience, my average salary grew, even on shit contract jobs.


If people are struggling, its because its because of the depression that hit in 2007-08 (don't buy the politicians calling it a recession - that was a full depression). That led to a ton of the top IT people making garish wages losing their jobs, and they all took the next tier down. That moved everyone down a tier or two, and you had people who could do more for less.

Not the employers fault - supply and demand of employees and their skills.

 

[Nytegard]

I can't imagine too many good software developers going into game development for an established company (small business / start-up is something else). When you do the math on the actual hourly wage it's pretty poor. It's basically a bottom-of-the-barrel software job and gets bottom-of-the-barrel developers, which explains why most games are complete trainwrecks.

I know Gabe Newell has said he prefers the opposite approach. I.e., paying developers really well, in order to get the best in the industry. But Valve has a whole bunch of other structural issues that sort of prevents them from producing good software.

Let's say you're graduating from college with a CS degree. Where would you rather work? A video game company like EA, Blizzard, Ubisoft, etc., or a VB/Java shop working on some other industry software? Now, neither is going to be top of the line, groundbreaking work. You're going to basically be a repair guy for software that's already been written. There's a reason why even the shops with the worst reputations get tens of thousands of resumes per position.

As far as games being a train wreck? While the programmers certainly play a part, upper management and the business people also play a role. They're the ones who demand an October/November release because it will make them more money than a more polished game that comes out after the holidays. That's not to say bad management only occurs in the video game industry, because it certainly in every industry, rather, that the developers aren't bottom of the barrel. Bad management can defeat even the best and brightest.

 

[Deleted member 134608]

I love all these posts stating that because people can quit their jobs (regardless of financial or family situation) and work really hard to find another one, any and all workplace exploitation is A-okay.

Nobody really wants workplace exploitation. People here are just being realistic. The reality is there are endless hordes of foreign workers being trained in IT, coding, rendering, 3D conversion, etc. etc every single day who would LOVE to take the abuse of the workplace in US/Canada to send money home to family. Silicon Valley won't tolerate a Game Dev Union knowing it would be far cheaper to pull a Disney. At the end of the day, If you are completely miserable in ANY technology field, maybe its time to consider a sector and city/town that is less competitive with a smaller talent pool to draw from. Schools at all levels, Health Care, all levels of Government, etc. for example, are always on the lookout for talented coders/web designers/graphic artists and often have worker protections/unions. Is uprooting your family scary? Absolutely. Impossible? No, just scary.

 

[Nytegard]

Nobody really wants workplace exploitation. People here are just being realistic. The reality is there are endless hordes of foreign workers being trained in IT, coding, rendering, 3D conversion, etc. etc every single day who would LOVE to take the abuse of the workplace in US/Canada to send money home to family. Silicon Valley won't tolerate a Game Dev Union knowing it would be far cheaper to pull a Disney. At the end of the day, If you are completely miserable in ANY technology field, maybe its time to consider a sector and city/town that is less competitive with a smaller talent pool to draw from. Schools at all levels, Health Care, all levels of Government, etc. for example, are always on the lookout for talented coders/web designers/graphic artists and often have worker protections/unions. Is uprooting your family scary? Absolutely. Impossible? No, just scary.

And this is exactly why Silicon Valley has no H-1Bs...

Work, including Silicon Valley work, and yes, game development, is already done overseas too, if it proves to be more profitable.

 

[Kalabalana]

If you were born in the last 30 years (are not an exceptionally talented/smart and/or born into a quality family), life is not the same as those older.
Also, what this arrogant narcicist fails to realize, is that it is not the worker who needs to change, it's the society that is allowing this growing area of unpaid work to become the norm.

The mentality that our newest generation is lazy, or whiners, is incredibly near-sighted (and very self-important thinking). If you feel this way based on the extreme examples paraded in front of you, please realize people are people, and that the exaggerations of the general population you see are not the norm. This generation has the same amount of intelligent hard workers yours did. Except now, they have to deal with a much shittier economy, and a much shittier corporate environment. You had it easy, not them, ditch the low-iq infantile thinking.

 

[Snowdog]

Great article. The concepts Alex talks about actually apply to most job types, and is primarily the result of less-motivated/more-lazy/less-intelligent people thinking they deserve as much as the greats / the superstars of their respective industry.

What is interesting about this story, is that [H] posted twice within about 48 hours.

But with a different headline, and completely different response in the comments, lending credence that people never RTFA, or at least not in detail.

Many [H] readers just come to Vent on however the article is spun, without actually reading it and forming their own opinion.

Yesterday the Spin was more that Asshat CEO was telling people to suck it and stop complaining about shitty work conditions. The comments were largely about what an Asshat the CEO was.

Today's spin is more about whiny entitled employees, and the comments follow more in that trend.

Naturally there are dissenters on both days, but the way people followed the [H] editorial in different directions demonstrates the rush to ill informed opinions without acturally reading is strong on [H], and perhaps and bit of [H]Sheep effect.

 

[Deleted member 134608]

And this is exactly why Silicon Valley has no H-1Bs...

Work, including Silicon Valley work, and yes, game development, is already done overseas too, if it proves to be more profitable.

"Foreign born workers dominate tech sector employment. Joint Venture Silicon Valley reported that foreign-born workers hold 67.3 percent of Silicon Valley's computer and mathematical jobs, 60.9 percent of architectural and engineering jobs, 48.7 percent of the natural sciences jobs and 41.3 percent of the medical and health services jobs."

H-1B visa application window opens, Silicon Valley at center of debate


From what I can see, competition is driving any sense of worker protection right out of the tech market.

 

[potency]

In my first- and second-hand experience, many companies adopt the "work more if you want this job" philosophy. It's what happens when bean counters have too much influence on the direction of the company.

Meanwhile, CEO's collect bonuses whether or not their leadership merits it.

 

[Zion Halcyon]

In my first- and second-hand experience, many companies adopt the "work more if you want this job" philosophy. It's what happens when bean counters have too much influence on the direction of the company.

Meanwhile, CEO's collect bonuses whether or not their leadership merits it.

I really start to wonder if a lot of this is just perspective. When I am hired, I have a job description going into it that I need to meet. The jobs I have been hired for fall within those job descriptions. I have never been asked to do anything unreasonable based on those job descriptions. Yet while I meet the expectations of those job descriptions, I do have people around me who quite frankly aren't very good at their jobs, bitching about management, and bitching about corporate structure and corporations politics and influence, and blaming all that for them being shit as technicians.

So in light of that, and given that I've never really had to overexert myself to do well at my job, I have to wonder if there is a number of Simply incompetent people who like to bitch at management for their own inadequacies while management is simply trying to find people who can do the job as described.

 

[tetris42]

I really start to wonder if a lot of this is just perspective. When I am hired, I have a job description going into it that I need to meet. The jobs I have been hired for fall within those job descriptions. I have never been asked to do anything unreasonable based on those job descriptions. Yet while I meet the expectations of those job descriptions, I do have people around me who quite frankly aren't very good at their jobs, bitching about management, and bitching about corporate structure and corporations politics and influence, and blaming all that for them being shit as technicians.

So in light of that, and given that I've never really had to overexert myself to do well at my job, I have to wonder if there is a number of Simply incompetent people who like to bitch at management for their own inadequacies while management is simply trying to find people who can do the job as described.

Yes, it's all just employees complaining; managers never make unreasonable demands or increase job load beyond the original descriptions; especially in creative environments where an original product is being made.

 

[Zion Halcyon]

Yes, it's all just employees complaining; managers never make unreasonable demands or increase job load beyond the original descriptions; especially in creative environments where an original product is being made.

Creative types do tend to be touchy.

 

[velusip]

Other than the insufferable humble bragging, great article!

It's that self-entitled, self-victimizing yuppies truly believe the words they were told as a kid, "do well in school so you don't have to work hard like I do." And then seek "employment", where they are squeezed and abused. Since when has there been research and development in the field of management which focuses on employee well-being and health? Step on their necks and buy a supercar.

 

[Mach Breaker]

Other than the insufferable humble bragging, great article!

It's that self-entitled, self-victimizing yuppies truly believe the words they were told as a kid, "do well in school so you don't have to work hard like I do." And then seek "employment", where they are squeezed and abused. Since when has there been research and development in the field of management which focuses on employee well-being and health? Step on their necks and buy a supercar.

It isn't a study in the field per se', but perhaps you'd best find your answer in Organizational Behavior 4th edition (McGraw) and a myriad of Neuroscience/Psychology books out there detailing the effects of stress on the human brain/body. ;-)

 

[potency]

I really start to wonder if a lot of this is just perspective. When I am hired, I have a job description going into it that I need to meet. The jobs I have been hired for fall within those job descriptions. I have never been asked to do anything unreasonable based on those job descriptions. Yet while I meet the expectations of those job descriptions, I do have people around me who quite frankly aren't very good at their jobs, bitching about management, and bitching about corporate structure and corporations politics and influence, and blaming all that for them being shit as technicians.

So in light of that, and given that I've never really had to overexert myself to do well at my job, I have to wonder if there is a number of Simply incompetent people who like to bitch at management for their own inadequacies while management is simply trying to find people who can do the job as described.

There are plenty of awful jobs and awful places to work, maybe you should just count your blessings that you've never experienced one.

I took the hard route to get where I'm at (didn't finish college) so I essentially chose to put my time in in the real world. When you don't look as good on paper, you often have to take what you get. I dealt with all the crap for years until I acquired the skills and experience necessary to go out on my own and leave all the crap behind. I saw myself becoming one of those middle-managers that gets all the pressure and no support, and I saw how many good workers can contribute to the larger problem. I made bad decisions, didn't know how to lead my troops, and was becoming like all the people I hated yet had to sit in meetings with all week.

Bad working conditions are a systemic and a symptom of a poor culture within a company. If your workers are unhappy, it's probably because shit trickles downhill, the problem is from the top down.

 

[Staples]

Because of this work schedule, it is the reason that most game developers and web programmers are under 30. Older people who realize they have options do not put up with this crap.

Walk into a Best Buy and you find the same for the exact same reason.

 

[ZLoth]

I'm a musician and I run into this attitude all the time. "You love what you do, why should you get paid for it?" Just because we do something we like and it's artistic doesn't mean we shouldn't be treated like other working professionals.

Try explaining that to the folks who pirate the games and music.

 

[M76]

For those of you that missed this, Alex St. John, the creator of DirectX and founder of WildTangent, has a few words for the game industry. Obviously this article is going to piss a lot of game developers off so I wanted to see what you guys thought about the situation.

Many modern game developers have embraced a culture of victimology and a bad attitude toward their chosen vocations. They complain that the long hours and personal sacrifices great games require are a consequence of poor management. They want to pretend that they can turn an inherently entrepreneurial endeavor like game development into a 9-to-5 job. Somehow, these people have managed to adopt a wage-slave attitude toward one of the most remarkable and privileged careers in the world. Listening to them complain about it, you would they think that they are trapped in some disenfranchised third-world country forced to dig for blood diamonds to feed their families.

Game development is only entrepreneurial for those that stands to benefit from the game's success. For the lowly employee of the company it is a 9-5 job, nothing more. You need to give some incentive if you want to ask your employees to work more. Be that paid overtime, bonuses or extraordinary salary, but you need something.

 

[tetris42]

Game development is only entrepreneurial for those that stands to benefit from the game's success. For the lowly employee of the company it is a 9-5 job, nothing more. You need to give some incentive if you want to ask your employees to work more. Be that paid overtime, bonuses or extraordinary salary, but you need something.

It's called threat of unemployment.

 

[dgz]

Unless your compensation is based on the success of the company through stocks, bonuses or other things besides YOUR NORMAL SALARY, people should only work 9-5.

If its only the people at the top who are benefiting from your extraordinary work - ask yourself, why are you doing it?

I am working on a pay2win web rts game. I actually offered my boss performance related compensation based on revenue generated by features I introduced (and programmed). He declined.

 

[krotch]

70-80 hours a week. Wow, that's a pretty shitty work week. I hope they at least get paid a lot more. I could deal with that if I was getting paid like $300k a year. I doubt they do and I doubt I'll ever want to move into that career. I'm good with my 8-5 work schedule (1 hour for lunch) making near $100k, doing boring normal IT system administration. Screw making "art".

 

[Sycraft]

It's hilarious hearing this shit from this jackass given that the company he manages, Hi5, produces online pay-2-win shovelware for Facebook and the like. It is a completely creatively bankrupt enterprise. So trying to claim that "Oh you are being creative and making art so you should want to do it for free," is stupid because what they do is about as far form art as you can get. It isn't as though this is some small studio that is producing a labour of love and arguing that people should work hard to make that come to life. He's a high paid exec for a company that produces garbage designed to suck as much money as possible for as little effort as possible. It is a position of pure greed, and very hypocritical.

Also to note is prior to this he founded WildTanget, another crapware company (any sysadmin has probably had to deal with their shit at least once) and prior to that he got fired from Microsoft because, here's a shocker: He worked too hard and burned out.

Basically the guy has no sense of perspective or history, and has a real inflated opinion of the creative value of the crap his company makes. I have no respect for his opinion.

 

[Zion Halcyon]

There are plenty of awful jobs and awful places to work, maybe you should just count your blessings that you've never experienced one.

I took the hard route to get where I'm at (didn't finish college) so I essentially chose to put my time in in the real world. When you don't look as good on paper, you often have to take what you get. I dealt with all the crap for years until I acquired the skills and experience necessary to go out on my own and leave all the crap behind. I saw myself becoming one of those middle-managers that gets all the pressure and no support, and I saw how many good workers can contribute to the larger problem. I made bad decisions, didn't know how to lead my troops, and was becoming like all the people I hated yet had to sit in meetings with all week.

Bad working conditions are a systemic and a symptom of a poor culture within a company. If your workers are unhappy, it's probably because shit trickles downhill, the problem is from the top down.

Don't get me wrong, I have worked for some awful places to and completely agree on culture. However, the whole overworked and underpaid thing never factored into where I've been. I think it may be certain jobs that may have that issue, for instance game development, programming, or pretty much any tech company in Silicon Valley. Otherwise, for as much as people complain about the whole overworked and underpaid thing, I have seen more than enough people in my same role complain about the things that aren't a problem for me, so I do have to question the overall General work ethic out there at this time. And to put that in perspective, I am a family man who is definitely no workaholic.

 

[M76]

It's called threat of unemployment.

If that's your idea of entrepreneurial.

 

[tetris42]

If that's your idea of entrepreneurial.

I was being kind of snide because of the double standard of this guy. He's expecting employees to work 80 hours a week without the benefits you're describing and for them to like it.

 

[blade52x]

If you're a great programmer, I'm not sure why you'd bother with game development under poor working conditions. STEM pays a lot better, and has more security.

 

[Monkey God]

If it hasn't been made clear yet, people like this St John guy have figured out you can work people harder for less compensation if those people have a "passion". Gaming, music, whatever. They manipulate these people to work for their passion instead of tangible benefits. People like Elon Musk do the same thing with regards to green energy and space travel. Why pay people more than you have to? Dont be a sucker. Get paid what your worth and demand reasonable treatment. Bottom line, its up to you to decide what you are willing to put up with or not.

In the eyes of an entrepreneur, a person with a passion is a sucker.

 

[velusip]

It's hilarious hearing this shit from this jackass given that the company he manages, Hi5, produces online pay-2-win shovelware for Facebook and the like. It is a completely creatively bankrupt enterprise. So trying to claim that "Oh you are being creative and making art so you should want to do it for free," is stupid because what they do is about as far form art as you can get. It isn't as though this is some small studio that is producing a labour of love and arguing that people should work hard to make that come to life. He's a high paid exec for a company that produces garbage designed to suck as much money as possible for as little effort as possible. It is a position of pure greed, and very hypocritical.

Also to note is prior to this he founded WildTanget, another crapware company (any sysadmin has probably had to deal with their shit at least once) and prior to that he got fired from Microsoft because, here's a shocker: He worked too hard and burned out.

Basically the guy has no sense of perspective or history, and has a real inflated opinion of the creative value of the crap his company makes. I have no respect for his opinion.

Wow, good point. I'm looking through these companies now and it makes me wonder even more. e.g. If you're a young developer working for some notorious game company like Bethesda or Grinding Gear Games, chances are you would feel pretty lucky and take a lot of shit during crunch time. "Labour of love" and such. But if you're producing cereal box games and addiction-focused, browser-based, freemium games -- chances are you might be ready to off yourself at any moment.

 

[velusip]

It isn't a study in the field per se', but perhaps you'd best find your answer in Organizational Behavior 4th edition (McGraw) and a myriad of Neuroscience/Psychology books out there detailing the effects of stress on the human brain/body. ;-)

Ah yes, more academic pieces on finding the maximum abuse vs return while staying within the line of the law. Or finding ways to push that line out further via outsourcing where no such laws exist.

 

[Deleted member 93354]

If it hasn't been made clear yet, people like this St John guy have figured out you can work people harder for less compensation if those people have a "passion". Gaming, music, whatever. They manipulate these people to work for their passion instead of tangible benefits. People like Elon Musk do the same thing with regards to green energy and space travel. Why pay people more than you have to? Dont be a sucker. Get paid what your worth and demand reasonable treatment. Bottom line, its up to you to decide what you are willing to put up with or not.

In the eyes of an entrepreneur, a person with a passion is a sucker.

True. Some of the best institutions in the world are also the crappiest paying. Case in point. Johns Hopkins Medical. It has a halo effect that makes people want to work there.

 

[TwistedAegis]

It's hilarious hearing this shit from this jackass given that the company he manages, Hi5, produces online pay-2-win shovelware for Facebook and the like. It is a completely creatively bankrupt enterprise. So trying to claim that "Oh you are being creative and making art so you should want to do it for free," is stupid because what they do is about as far form art as you can get. It isn't as though this is some small studio that is producing a labour of love and arguing that people should work hard to make that come to life. He's a high paid exec for a company that produces garbage designed to suck as much money as possible for as little effort as possible. It is a position of pure greed, and very hypocritical.

Also to note is prior to this he founded WildTanget, another crapware company (any sysadmin has probably had to deal with their shit at least once) and prior to that he got fired from Microsoft because, here's a shocker: He worked too hard and burned out.

Basically the guy has no sense of perspective or history, and has a real inflated opinion of the creative value of the crap his company makes. I have no respect for his opinion.

Ha... /thread right here.

 

[mesyn191]

STEM pays a lot better, and has more security.

STEM has been over crowded for years + generally doesn't pay any better at all.

Article by a professor on this if you're the type to ignore charts just because.

And the original article the chart came from if you want more context.

Quite a lot of the R&D work is actually incredibly insecure since it relies on funding from the govt. which is constantly being cut these last few years.

On top of all that STEM work is very intellectually demanding. Particularly for the STEM jobs that pay good money. Its farcical to say "oh just get a STEM job then" as if that is any sort of solution at this point.

Its also just as farcical to say "oh you don't like it? then quit and get another job" like its still the 70's or 80's and stroll on in off the street elsewhere to get the same or similar paying job. Bootstraps don't make job markets either.

 

[mesyn191]

Some of the best institutions in the world are also the crappiest paying. Case in point. Johns Hopkins Medical.

They're a teaching/training hospital that does substantial non-profit work as well as public and private R&D in healthcare.

You cannot reasonably compare them with what is going on with labor exploitation in the game development industry or even most other industries right now.

Particularly since many of the people who get paid crappy there are medical trainees of some sort who know they'll get paid well once they finish their training.

 

[mesyn191]

Try explaining that to the folks who pirate the games and music.

Pirating is a non-issue when the product is priced properly.

Report: Piracy a "global pricing problem" with only one solution

edit: more food for thought here: US government finally admits most piracy estimates are bogus

 

[mesyn191]

Is uprooting your family scary? Absolutely. Impossible? No, just scary.

Hahaha wow. Scary but for no reasons I guess then huh?

No.

Its scary for real reasons and real consequences if things don't work out right. And its easy for things to not work out right. I've had jobs that I thought were a sure thing fall through for reasons unknown during moves. I've had to watch savings dwindle for months while frantically searching for work. Savings that took years to get. Things did pan out but it was pure luck. I've seen what happens to others when it doesn't work out and it is ugly knowing your actions put you and your family on the street.

I've done 3 major moves in my life and I know how hard it is and for you to give such a blase' reply, to what is in this day and age a very risky move for someone who works for living, is just awful. And out of touch with reality.

 

[Deleted member 93354]

They're a teaching/training hospital that does substantial non-profit work as well as public and private R&D in healthcare.

You cannot reasonably compare them with what is going on with labor exploitation in the game development industry or even most other industries right now.

Particularly since many of the people who get paid crappy there are medical trainees of some sort who know they'll get paid well once they finish their training.

Wow I love people who shoot off their mouth without a clue.

First of all the vast majority of hospitals are non profit. Second not only newbs work at Johns Hopkins. There are plenty of experienced professionals who work there...for less money. Ask me how I know. Come on I dare ya.

Same thing happens at saint Jude's and Hershey medical. It's the halo effect.

It's the same reason people drive priuses even though they are expensive small shitty safety sub compacts...it's a halo effect of saving gas and environment.

I used to work for NASA at a severely reduced rate. So did my PhD EE boss. And I worked for a Nobel prize winner just because the work was neat.

 

[mesyn191]

Wow I love people who shoot off their mouth without a clue.

What did I say that was incorrect?

First of all the vast majority of hospitals are non profit.

Quote where I said otherwise. My whole point of bringing it up was that the game developers aren't a non-profit and if you know what you're talking about in general then you know comparing for-profit and non-profit entities is a big no-no. Apples to oranges and all that.

Second not only newbs work at Johns Hopkins.

Quote me where I said that there was. Saying a hospital is a "teaching/training hospitial" isn't implying that only newbs work there. My bringing it up was another way to show how they're different they are from the game developers which reinforces the fact you're making a terrible apples to oranges comparison.

It's the same reason people drive priuses even though they are expensive small shitty safety sub compacts...it's a halo effect of saving gas and environment.

No one who needs to work for a living works in a shitty place with shitty treatment because they want to. They do it because they have to.

I used to work for NASA at a severely reduced rate. So did my PhD EE boss. And I worked for a Nobel prize winner just because the work was neat.

None of these personal anecdotes are at all useful examples of what opportunities most people have nor are they reasonable examples of the common person or even of what most game developers have done or do routinely and so have nothing to do with the topic or my post.