Jesus fucking Christ you people. Learn to have some fucking compassion for other people and stop EXCUSING the shitty behavior of companies.
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Game Developers Must Avoid The ‘Wage-Slave’ Attitude
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Jesus fucking Christ you people. Learn to have some fucking compassion for other people and stop EXCUSING the shitty behavior of companies.
It's the typical "fuck you, got mine" attitude.
Armenius
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I know someone where I work who is currently working two jobs to make ends meet, yet she still has the time to work toward becoming a registered nurse. If there is a will, there is a way.
twonunpackmule
[H]ard|Gawd
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I use to work in the film industry and the hours are very, very similar. 80+ hours a week. However, I can't say I ever really did free over time. Well...except for that one gig.
The multitude of unions in the film industry have tried to abolish a lot of unpaid overtime. Unless, of course, you're working a non-union job. I'm not the biggest fan of unions, but maybe it's time for the game industry to start considering it.
twonunpackmule
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There's a love/hate relationship with Unions. However, I worked a lot of non-union jobs that offered much higher pay, because I wasn't locked into a pre-determined contract. I was able to barter my worth.
To be honest the way unions are now I much rather the industry take some steps to make things fair. Unions were fine when they first started, but now days a lot of them do more harm than good. It just sucks that they're seemingly a necessary evil.
I agree, in principal. I just don't know if there is any other way to fix the mess that game development seems to be right now. Companies aren't going to fix it and the near endless supply of labor means they are never going to be pressured into it. I'd hate to see the government set up and regulate it though. The industry works much better as a, relatively, free market.
You won't find me working 70-80 hours a week at because I don't want to do that. We drive old vehicles and live in a comfortable but old house on a bit of land. I like to do a bit of farming / ranching.
I like it - it's a lot less stressful.
These companies are able to do this because they find people who want to take them up on the deal. That is the funny thing about the world - no matter how crazy the deal, I am sure you can find someone who would be willing to go along with it.
I don't think anyone is at fault here. The companies aren't being shitty, they are asking for a deal and people are taking them up that deal.
The people who hate the job aren't being shitty, they should make a choice to be happy and change their lifestyle to match a different way of living - but they aren't very good at making choices for themselves.
Plus, all of us are posting on hardforum and most of us should be working right now... life isn't that bad.
We can get along, ya know?
I like it - it's a lot less stressful.
These companies are able to do this because they find people who want to take them up on the deal. That is the funny thing about the world - no matter how crazy the deal, I am sure you can find someone who would be willing to go along with it.
I don't think anyone is at fault here. The companies aren't being shitty, they are asking for a deal and people are taking them up that deal.
The people who hate the job aren't being shitty, they should make a choice to be happy and change their lifestyle to match a different way of living - but they aren't very good at making choices for themselves.
Plus, all of us are posting on hardforum and most of us should be working right now... life isn't that bad.
We can get along, ya know?
twonunpackmule
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My account is from 2005, but work/school kept me from posting. This is the first time in a long time where I got free time. It's kinda amazing. Also...job security. Ever want to know how worthless feels? Try freelancing in a market that doesn't produce anything. It was until the last 4 years that Maryland/DC started getting real work.
Twisted Kidney
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Sometimes with ISPs you're hooped through the magic of collusion or just local monopolies. Yeah, though, if you have the skills to make video games you generally have the skills to do other things. Or do it all for yourself.
Very seldom is hating a job about the hours though, it's about the attitude, you can get a lot more out of your people if you say thank you a lot treat them with respect. That's hard to find at a massive multinational.
I would have no problem with it if it didn't affect gaming. However, things like Batman: Arkham Knight happen. I can't even imagine how bad the code was for them to give up on Windows sales. They gave the code to Feral and it would have been one of the best sellers if they ported it to Mac and Linux and they gave up on it too.
Very true. A good boss makes any job easier and feel more rewarding. At my last job the boss (the owner of the company) would come out and BS with people at times or you'd walk into his office to ask a question and end up talking about random stuff. If he needed you to do something he'd ask you to do and say "thanks" when you said "sure". When you worked overtime he'd say "thanks". Often times if you ended up working on Sunday he'd bring in doughnuts. He saved the cans of soda we'd drink while working and when there was enough, he'd cash them in and buy us pizza. One day when the power went out in the the building for a bit he took everyone out to breakfast and paid us to sit in a restaurant and paid for all of our food. The work itself could be stressful due to machines liking to break down or due to our main customer being a bag of dicks, but having a great boss helped us get through it without us actually speaking our minds when the customer decided to stop in to inspect our work.
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Being a game developer means you are always working on cutting edge. Cutting edge is time consuming and full of bugs. You are often doing ground up implementation or using someone else's game engine. And all of these take a lot of time. It's not like you are patching an existing product. Your product is often new.
These are the risk you accept as a game developer. Don't like it, leave.
The banking industry would pay you handsomely to handle their old outdated COBOL problems: It's good pay with not that much overtime.
Engineering firms will pay handsomely for FORTRAN engineers.
You don't want dated code? Okay develop web pages. Realize your life will be fraught with security issues, server issues, and incompatibilities between browsers and constantly evolving toolkits.
If you think code has gotten too complicated and want full control? Okay become an embedded software engineer and work down at the hardware level.
Don't like any of it? Become a contractor or become a startup. Both can lead to long hours, but you are your own boss.
So pick your poison and quit @#%#$@!
These are the risk you accept as a game developer. Don't like it, leave.
The banking industry would pay you handsomely to handle their old outdated COBOL problems: It's good pay with not that much overtime.
Engineering firms will pay handsomely for FORTRAN engineers.
You don't want dated code? Okay develop web pages. Realize your life will be fraught with security issues, server issues, and incompatibilities between browsers and constantly evolving toolkits.
If you think code has gotten too complicated and want full control? Okay become an embedded software engineer and work down at the hardware level.
Don't like any of it? Become a contractor or become a startup. Both can lead to long hours, but you are your own boss.
So pick your poison and quit @#%#$@!
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Monkey God
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Im not excusing shit. Some companies are going to be assholes. Quit. Move on. Stop crying about it if YOU made decisions in your life that make it hard to find a different job.
Semantics
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It is actually an industry that can do it as it's specialized work so the leverage of withholding workers works better.
The issues of long hours is more of an issue of publishing than what you're talking about. It's publishers who pushed for a certain release date who want to time their advertisement and logistic agreements then shoehorn your project into that because getting the game out faster when the season is right is more important then getting the game out when it's right. Sort of a reason Nintendo 1st party games are usually good to great games their mentality on publishing is different, if the game isn't right it isn't going to hit the shelves. It's not to say Nintendo doesn't push their studios to hit dates and crunch time doesn't exist but at least they wont let a bad game go though because of it.
If only it was "some" companies that were assholes. This shit is so prevalent in the industry that you'd have a hard time finding one that wasn't. When the entire industry is like this, it's not something that should be ignored. It's a real problem. Do you want to see the industry go into decline? Because of most of the people were to take your and others' advice to simply quit and move on, then we wouldn't have the gaming industry. HardOCP would be a useless site. I like this site, and I like the gaming world. I think it's in our best interest to want to push for a fair situation for developers and the like stuck in hell because the industry can't be trusted to regulate itself.
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Deleted member 93354
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As silly as this may sound, the Dentist might have a sex addiction problem and having a woman who is sexually desirable around him might create problems for his recovery. OR his wife may be insecure, and it may be creating problems in his marriage. In that case, the assistant leaving might be the best course.
I don't think anyone is saying that there should be no crunch time at all. Of course you are going to have some sometimes. Hell, massive overtime can happen at nearly any job. The problem is when it happens for months on end due to poor management and people are poorly, or not at all, compensated for it. Saying "quit" is fine and dandy but it solves nothing. All it does is excuse and ignore the conditions in the first place. I bet that fixing working conditions in the industry would also improve game quality. Since it would mean people have less stress put on them and are able to work at their peak efficiency much more often. We love to bitch about bad games or broken games, but when one of the reasons is shoved in our faces we ignore it.
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It about a return on investment. The number crunchers already figured out how much they can afford to put into a game to turn a profit. If you can't make their requirements then you shouldn't have signed up for the job. And with the number of growing free to play games out there, this model is getting worse.
-Signed a lead software engineer
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Deleted member 93354
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Great so lets go over our options for improved working conditions:
1. Longer deadlines to complete work. This requires money.
2. More compensation. (This OBVIOUSLY requires money)
So now your $60 game now cost $100. No one buys it because it's outrageously priced. Everyone either pirates it or waits for a steam blow out sale. You lose on both fronts.
This is why bean counters are necessary to figure out the return on investment. It's not like they don't have years upon years upon years of data to look at to figure out the sweet spot.
Big turn over and burn out can't possibly be good for the industry though, can it? At least in the long run.
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Deleted member 93354
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No it's not. And it doesn't mean I don't have sympathy. I've been working 60 hour weeks for 4+ weeks now because the engineers upstairs are yelling about how much money and time this is costing them. (And I'm salaried)
But this is what you signed up for as a software engineer. And to be honest you are likely paid top dollar for it. Few make as much as us. We are in the top 10% of pay and it may not require a college degree in programming IF you are skilled enough. What other industry can claim this?
The "quit and go somewhere else" argument would make more sense if crunch wasn't an industry standard, and jumping ship to a whole new industry is a lot harder when they require specific qualifications and experience. It might be an option in your 20s, but starting over gets exponentially more difficult as time goes on.
And it's worth remembering how young the games industry is. A lot of people who really built it in the 80s and 90s are still involved with it. That means there are fewer options for advancement because few people in senior positions are leaving. Also, working the politics is not for everyone. In my experience the people who excel at the politics are the least capable of doing the actual jobs.
And now that game development is a sort of factory industry, the opportunities to actually be creative are minimal unless you're the guy at the top of the tree. The rest is just button-pushing, so why should you put up with being forced to work shitty hours for free for that? The whole "it's a creative industry, you have to put your heart into it" argument doesn't really apply to grass roots artists, unless you're the manager who benefits from it.
And the idea that people should go and make their own games? Well, as long as you're content with all games being indie platformers created by one person which sell 5 copies, then I guess that's an option, although it's not really a sustainable one. And how many publishers have worked artists to the edge, only for the game to still end up being shit? Pretty much none of the arguments hold water if you follow them through.
It doesn't have to be such a clusterfuck, but another side effect of the youth of the industry is that a lot of people in senior management positions got there because they got in early, not because they have any clue what they're doing.
And it's worth remembering how young the games industry is. A lot of people who really built it in the 80s and 90s are still involved with it. That means there are fewer options for advancement because few people in senior positions are leaving. Also, working the politics is not for everyone. In my experience the people who excel at the politics are the least capable of doing the actual jobs.
And now that game development is a sort of factory industry, the opportunities to actually be creative are minimal unless you're the guy at the top of the tree. The rest is just button-pushing, so why should you put up with being forced to work shitty hours for free for that? The whole "it's a creative industry, you have to put your heart into it" argument doesn't really apply to grass roots artists, unless you're the manager who benefits from it.
And the idea that people should go and make their own games? Well, as long as you're content with all games being indie platformers created by one person which sell 5 copies, then I guess that's an option, although it's not really a sustainable one. And how many publishers have worked artists to the edge, only for the game to still end up being shit? Pretty much none of the arguments hold water if you follow them through.
It doesn't have to be such a clusterfuck, but another side effect of the youth of the industry is that a lot of people in senior management positions got there because they got in early, not because they have any clue what they're doing.
The job might be great at first, then policy, economy, and other changes can quickly take a good job and make it crap. Benefits and bonuses can be taken away and longer hours expected. I work in the healthcare industry, and that is exactly what has happened. It was a joy to work in my field and now after about 15 years its a complete mess with extreme frustrations, but I still make a good living , comparatively speaking.
However, industry changes that lower the quality of working conditions makes for a good combination for small businesses to start. Nothing like an employee hating their job to the point they take their chosen profession into their own hands and start their own business with other disenchanted workers.
Circle of life, in my opinion...
However, industry changes that lower the quality of working conditions makes for a good combination for small businesses to start. Nothing like an employee hating their job to the point they take their chosen profession into their own hands and start their own business with other disenchanted workers.
Circle of life, in my opinion...
twonunpackmule
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That's what I wanted to do. However, I started to look at all my bosses and realized most were terrible, terrible people. Like, truly awful. I didn't want to be an asshole. So, I left. I was incredibly bitter. I do find myself happier now, but not as fulfilled. In the end, I think I can still make my films while not being in the industry. I have my contacts, and when I'm ready to actually do it...I can do it with a clean slate and, hopefully, maintain a fair and happy set.
Entertainment or Video Game Software Development Industry Salary, Average Salaries | PayScale
Unless you're in a Sr. position I think you're hardly being paid top dollar. The entire industry as a whole is huge and if the devs aren't paid peanuts their jobs are being replaced via outsourcing.
Look at this article. From 2007.
Sure, it's a cool job. But do games pay?
Oh look, nothing has really changed since. Pay has gone up slightly, but not nearly enough, and most development hubs are still in the places with a high cost of living.
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Deleted member 93354
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Few people are happy with their work. It's a fact of life. Being in software means you are constantly being retrained. Being in software means if you get laid off post 55 you have some serious issues (I planned for retirement at 55 IF that becomes an issue and I can't make it to 67) This is what YOU accepted like it or not. There are plenty of other professions which require just as much commitment without the great pay (ie: Teachers)
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Deleted member 93354
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Actually you are based on your age. For your age and skill set you are STILL in the top 90%. You work your way to the top like I did. I started off at $40K/year at NASA in the early 90's. That was still decent pay and better then the vast vast vast majority of my peers of similar age. No excuses.
TwistedAegis
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So essentially, don't ever work to change anything, just run away perpetually to other companies and hope they're better. And if they're not, simply switch to another career.
With that attitude, it would simply behoove employers to treat everyone like wage slaves.
With that attitude, it would simply behoove employers to treat everyone like wage slaves.
You're also most likely living in an area with a high cost of living as a software engineer in the video game industry. The industry has a sunshine tax. You get paid way less than you're worth, and told to work longer hours, because some kid right out of college will do your job for way less. And then they'll burn you out and hire that kid. Too many people go into the industry with incorrect assumptions about the industry, only to learn that, wait, this really is just a job.
But people do have a right to complain. And the article brings up the whole "Well, I had it worse growing up" argument. Someone always has it worse. There are probably people in the world who would kill to have the author's Alaskan upbringing, because it would be a huge quality of life improvement. But just because we have it better than someone else does not mean things can't improve more, or that industry greed is valid.
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Don't feed the trolls.
Zion Halcyon
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No, it's not "Right to work" at all.
Rather, and I know there are always exceptions, I find this type of attitude to be something mostly exclusive to either the gaming industry or Silicon Valley.
I have worked in IT my whole life, both FT and contract, and only once time, once, can I ever remember working in conditions as bad as those listed. Doesn't mean every job was great (a lot of IT jobs were pretty shit), but it was all 9-5, and never was I not paid a decent wage, nor made to feel like shit for taking a lunch, EVER.
So, having been around, to see someone just glibly chalk it up to "Right to work" to back their own political bullshit is utter nonsense.
Having said that, horror stories about Tech companies in Silicon Valley and gaming companies around the world are about a dime a dozen. I think there is truly something different and horrid out there, which is why I won't go near California with a 10 foot pole, and am glad I changed majors from programming to focus on Networking and Server Management back in my college days, as at one point I also wanted to be a game developer.
There is something truly horrid out there, which is ironic given how liberal that area is. Kind of like how for a while how Chicago was the murder capital of the world (or at least the US) while also having some of the strictest gun laws. At some point, people need to realize they are in part causing the problem, instead of believing the propaganda that they are fighting against it.
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Taking a chance and possibly losing a standard of living (for themselves and the people they support) is terrifying. I get it. I went bankrupt 15 years ago. Clawed back out of that whole, borrowed myself into another and almost went bankrupt again, then climbed out of that. I left a job I had for nearly a decade, where I put up with a ruthless boss and crap pay to do something different. I took a chance which was scary as hell, especially while supporting my gf and daughter. I'm in a really good place now. Life is scary, but people need to realize the world is a big place with opportunities everywhere if you leave your comfort zone. Be Brave.
EchtoGammut
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A lot of people in my family work in the games industry. Granted all of them are senior positions, but at least a couple of them started near the bottom. Some studios are awesome to work for and it is the fun atmosphere and ability to do something that isn't mind numbing that keeps them from switching to other fields. A good friend recently left a position as lead programmer for a well known studio to work for a HFT, making 3x what he previously made. While the money is good, he can't wait to be able to cash out and go back to game development because he is bored to distraction. That said, Alex is wrong. A huge problem in the Game industry is bad management and antiquated development cycles. My brother works for Arena Net and they have a 9-5 workday and while they are not without their brief crunch moments, they don't have people sleeping under their desks. Sitting at a desk isn't the worst thing in the world, but it wouldn't be necessary if management implement structured planning, short iterative development cycles and executed long term planning. You would be amazed at the antiquated methods and technology behind "cutting edge" games and all of it lies at the feet of bad management.
Yes there is art to making a game, but it isn't the "art" that causes game delays. Most studios wait until the last minute to get art assets done and spend most of their time reinventing the wheel. Whenever a newbie comes onto Gamedev.net and says "I want to create my own game engine that does this..." we all laugh and point them to the intro to programming section. However, as stupid as the idea of creating your own engine is (unless you are doing for the sake of learning something), many studios do that or practically do that for no valid reason. It is mind bending the number of times a studio has written software that could have been licensed for a fraction of the cost and usually to better effect than the crap they produced under a deadline. This is not unique to game development, but happens a lot in business as well. There are many cases where code could have been refactored or debugged, but new software was written to replace or repair a problem. Over time these issues build up and suddenly it is do or die and management starts screaming at art and design to finish something they only just got final confirmation on.
Yes there is art to making a game, but it isn't the "art" that causes game delays. Most studios wait until the last minute to get art assets done and spend most of their time reinventing the wheel. Whenever a newbie comes onto Gamedev.net and says "I want to create my own game engine that does this..." we all laugh and point them to the intro to programming section. However, as stupid as the idea of creating your own engine is (unless you are doing for the sake of learning something), many studios do that or practically do that for no valid reason. It is mind bending the number of times a studio has written software that could have been licensed for a fraction of the cost and usually to better effect than the crap they produced under a deadline. This is not unique to game development, but happens a lot in business as well. There are many cases where code could have been refactored or debugged, but new software was written to replace or repair a problem. Over time these issues build up and suddenly it is do or die and management starts screaming at art and design to finish something they only just got final confirmation on.
This is the problem. When you train for a career with very specific skills it can be really hard to find another job. You know what's worse than being under qualified? Being over qualified. Try finding a job to make ends meet when you have a couple graduate degrees. Nobody will hire you. Nobody will even give you an interview.
It happens in non-artistic professions too. I have a friend that works as an aerospace engineer for GE. This person works 80 hours a week and doesn't get overtime. The pay is good, but it's a choice between crappy working conditions and lots of money (with no time to spend it) or no work at all. Unions can become corrupt, but this is exactly the kind of situation they were created to address.
Mach Breaker
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For those thinking it's acceptable to be worked to death, maybe we should start bringing slavery back and send them to the cotton fields while we're at it. As someone who has been in IT for over half his life (21 or so years), holding a degree in both computer networking and in Applied Management, have had run four of my own businesses to reasonable success (gave up my career to take care of a parent full time) so I certainly know what it feels like to be overworked. The only time I ever felt I had to push my employees that far was when there was a piss poor management call, sometimes on my part, that ended up causing scope creeps, leading to a rush in meeting deadlines. Otherwise, I always found them to be more productive when they were provided fair working conditions and just had someone who was good at leading them in the right direction.
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That is because the guy that regged a new account to make posts in this thread was banned and his posts were removed. Yes, we fully understand that someone might post on these forum that does not share our exact point of view....and no we do not consider that trolling.
Sounds like there are a lot of privileged middle class white boys in here not understanding how the real world works outside of their worldly bubble. Young, white, healthy, male and strong tends to open up a lot of doors. I'm one of them that is old enough now to understand everything is not so black and white depending on a myriad of circumstances.
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Missed it when [H] posted it yesterday?
Game Industry Veteran Defends Poor Working Conditions
Back today but with more clickbait headline?
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