Fudzilla: AMD Navi Is No High-End GPU

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Apr 14, 2018.

  1. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Oh you do- you care enough to make attacks using flimsy personal anecdotes rather than address the OP :ROFLMAO:

    Why even comment if your only opinion is 'I like my GPUs slower too!'

    Thank the gods that demand for higher performance still exists outside of the AMD faithful, if not we'd never get to 4k120 :D
     
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  2. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Hell, I firmly believe they can do it. That's what makes their recent decisions a bit infuriating as a gamer. One would hope that having their parts in such high demand, in the GPU space at least, would convince them to step up their game a bit.
     
  3. cdabc123

    cdabc123 2[H]4U

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    If demand continues exactly like this they have no reason to actually release a high end card. If they were sure demand would stay the same the smartest move would be to through a polaris core with the cheapest mem they could and produce a MASSIVE amount of cards. However miners are stupid investers and because of that demand could fall at any given point. That puts gpu manufacturers in a odd place. If they think demand will be good they should produce cheap midrange cards. If they think it will drop the only way to make money will be on high end cards and pro cards (high end also) so although this move makes since right now I sincerely hope amd has a high end card on the back burner
     
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  4. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    what performance gains are negligible in AMD's mid tier?

    from rx580 to 1080 like performance?

    is that the negligible performance increase you are talking about?
     
  5. Neapolitan6th

    Neapolitan6th Gawd

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    It can be discussed into the ground, but I suppose no one will really know until there are cards to be tested. I'll wait until then.

    Though I realize stockholders and the like don't always have the luxury of time.
     
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  6. Toehopper

    Toehopper n00b

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    So i bought a Sapphire Nitro Fury in 2015 and I love it, but what I don't get is that there is no upgrade path for the enthusiast like me through amd. Now in 2018 the best I can do is shell out about 900 U.S. For a vega 64 which cant topple the cheaper 1080. And now I am to understand that there will remain no worthwhile upgrade for me until 2020? It seems logical that AMD will lose a lot of enthusiast buyers to the green team in the next two years. its sad as ive followed ati/amd fairhfully at the high end since my HIS hightech X800 xt pe x1950 pro, 2 2900 pros, 4870, 6950, 7950, 290x, and my fury, and now I gotta switch to nvidia.
     
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  7. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Where did I say 'mid tier'? They're still stuck at Vega performance, not that Vega has been a good buy at available pricing for practically its entire release.

    The theory is that these cards will be cheaper. Hooray?

    Are they going to make enough to saturate the undetermined mining demand such that they'll actually be broadly available at MSRP, assuming that they deliver on price and performance?

    Will anyone care if Nvidia simply releases a competing part at the same price point, given that you're more likely to actually be able to buy them if current trends hold?

    I'm basing my opinion on facts about AMD's recent performance. If they manage to pull a rabbit out of their hat, I'll buy one of these.

    Really.
     
  8. cdabc123

    cdabc123 2[H]4U

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    Keep inmind the Vega 64 had a cheaper MSRP then the 1080. The Vega 64 should have been the logical jump for you and if you bought at a very specific time it would have been. Curent prices are not reflecting how well a card can game atall.
     
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  9. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I do hate to agree with you.

    And this is also what Nvidia has done, except that they've pushed their Gx100 parts out that remain excellent for various compute loads as well; AMD has simply chosen to not compete in that market since R600 (the HD2900XT).

    Except for this last round with Nvidia's surprise GP102. Yes, it is expensive in absolute terms (the 1080Ti), but that price actually seem reasonable relative to price and performance of other available parts. One of the few instances where spending more actually gets you quite a bit more.

    Now we're down to AMD's big chips (Hawaii/Fury/Vega) competing with Nvidia's half-size (Gx104, currently 1070/1080) GPUs on and off. Really wish AMD would make a 'GP102' of their own, but again, I hate to agree that it's probably not economical with their technology.
     
  10. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Keep in mind that current prices are real. You cannot use an MSRP price/performance argument going forward. AMD could release Navi at US$50/copy and you still may not be able to get one for less than $600.
     
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  11. Aenra

    Aenra Limp Gawd

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    Am getting too old for this, i've been seeing these "discussions" since the Cyrixes.
    ( and it was because of people like you that they went the way of the dodo, lol.. you liked that huh? We're SO much better off now )

    So let me ignore the internet warriors and humbly ask the rest: Why give credence to something without any sources? Is that site trustworthy enough? Honest question, never even heard of them.
     
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  12. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    that is what this article is about a mid tier replacement card for the RX580

    this not about a Halo card.
     
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  13. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    ...and?

    They're still at Vega performance levels, which going forward, is mid-tier. It's what we'll expect from the 1160/2060/whatever. There's what we have now and what trends have shown will most likely be coming, and I'm talking about both.
     
  14. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    i hate using the steam survey as any kind of benchmark on sales but the mid tier is where most people pick their cards from.

    not everyone wants to or can afford to buy a halo product.

    so amd releases a potentially cheaper less power hungry card for the masses then later on throws out a halo product to compete in the high end.

    sounds like a sound practice to me.
     
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  15. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Most people are running iGPUs, so I don't buy the 'most people' argument. Making these cards, if they can deliver on the performance and make enough of them that there's some left over for the gamers, would be a great move by AMD. As I said, they pull it off, I'll buy one.
     
  16. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    most people on steam.

    not people at home using excel or facebook.
     
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  17. cjcox

    cjcox [H]ard|Gawd

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    Remember when ATI absolutely dominated Nvidia?
     
  18. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    As of Febuary 2018. The 1080 accounts for 1.05% of all the users on steam. The 1080 ti accounts for 0.47%.

    So the 1080 class of card is used by 1.52% of the people on steam right now.

    In comparison.

    The 750 ti is used by 13.26% the 1060 is used by 14.27%.

    Clearly NV is winning the gaming market right now based on Steam usage.... but lets get some reality in our lives. There are more people using steam with integrated Intel video cards then there are with 1080 class cards.

    Follow the money the money has never been in the high end. The mid range has always been the money maker... and more then that its the card the vast majority of people buy.

    Personally I could care less if AMD ever ever holds the performance crown in gaming again. As long as they offer me a mid range card that offers better performance per $ spent. If I can get a mid range AMD card for 50-100 bucks cheaper that performs = I'm happy with that. If I pay the same and get a slight advantage I'm fine with that as well. I will always be in the market for 750 ti / 1060 range cards myself.
     
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  19. Master_shake_

    Master_shake_ [H]ardForum Junkie

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    sigh....

    amd's next card will be a mid tiered card that competes with the likes of the *60 *50 cards from nvidia the exact series of cards you just said have 28 ish percent of users on steam.
     
  20. cdabc123

    cdabc123 2[H]4U

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    prices right now are based on mining performance. vega could be completely incapable of gaming and still be selling like it is. your comparing gaming preformance/price to the curent market whitch is entirly based on mining preformance/price whitch kinda nulls any price arguments out there at this moment and makes price preformance odd for the future as mining plays such a stupid large effect on the future that the actual price cards will ba avalible for is impossible to predict without knowing the state of mining at the time.
     
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  21. cdabc123

    cdabc123 2[H]4U

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    hate to say it to ya but right now the money is in mining. there is a absalutly massive amount of cards mining that the cards out there and being bought cant be represented with a steam survey. for example most 750tis out there are still gaming most 1070s and 1080tis are mining
     
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  22. Krenum

    Krenum [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yes, its worked wonders for Honda.
     
  23. lostin3d

    lostin3d [H]ard|Gawd

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    I wouldn't mind them doing mid tier cards if they provided better mgpu support. I know it's a dead horse but 3 or 4 cheap AMD cards outperforming a high end NV for same or less $$$ would be awesome. If they wanted to really put at least one nail in NV's coffin they'd develop drivers that don't depend on DX or devs for Mgpu support. Just sayin'

    Otherwise, it looks like I'll be holding onto my 1080ti and 1080SLI rigs for quite a while now. Not really complaining, just a bummer that there's nothing affordable on the horizon for a long ways off.

    I am curious though, if low-mid tier cards are the money machine then where is it going? Will Navi be able to flood the market to counter the resell post mining phenomenon? I doubt it, but it too would be interesting.

    I would really like to jump ship from team green but not going backwards to do so.
     
  24. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    Well unless NV stands still that will still mean 1080 ti performance in the mid market segment 6 months from now. I mean if AMD can produce the number of chips required for a mid market card roll out that will no doubt seriously increase performance for those of us that don't like to spend more then 300 bucks on a GPU. As a rule I will ever spend more then 300 bucks on a gaming card.... I could buy a console cheaper, and frankly I am not a fan of the 90 dollar day one lockbox AAA scam games in industry has been pushing the last few years. So every game I actually play would run Full on everything maxed with 1080 performance level card.
     
  25. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    Could well be a lot of truth in that for sure.

    Having said that the numbers right now aren't anything new. The top end cards have never been more then 4-5% of the market ever. For NV and AMD they have never made those cards for any other reason then to win benchmarks and sell mid range cards. There hasn't ever been a long line of customers for 800 dollar video cards.

    So with NV buying off review sites, and benchmark / game developers... I don't blame AMD for focusing on what makes them money more then anything.

    I mean this article is 100% rumor and I somehow doubt AMD doesn't release a token high end part to compete in the benchmark games.

    I wish more sites where run by people like Kyle who tell it as it is and report on actual game play experience more then if X or Y heavily optimized game was 4 or 5% faster on X or Y card. Kyles tests with freesync / gsync always tickle my funny bone... everyone going on about NV beating down AMD yet if you sit a bunch of hardcore gamers infront of the best offering from both companies no one can tell the difference.
     
  26. Azphira

    Azphira [H]ard|Gawd

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    This is what happened the last time I had to wait for a video card.
    imTNwPI.jpg
     
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  27. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yeap, the two Vega FEs are pulling in over $6/day, the two 1080TIs $4/day. My three Vega's are out producing money wise 2 1080Tis + 2 1070s + 1 Nano. Making it sad for gamers looking for AMD cards, I am looking at buying several more Vega's -> of course for mining -> Just not worth it at this point.

    Plus Newegg yesterday had a 1070Ti for $499 and available - If that becomes even more normal then Nvidia by default will be the gaming brand to buy, they did not even need GPP even in the remotest to virtually totally own the gaming market.

    AMD in the end did really good with Polaris in the gaming market and then mining. Navi makes a hell a lot of sense to be the chip replacing Polaris and maintaining a reasonable or at least a presence in the gaming market. Should also be great for AMD next G series of APUs. Ryzen 2 + Navi should be one hell of a chip! Making AMD in mobile a power house where the real bread and butter is at.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  28. cdabc123

    cdabc123 2[H]4U

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    I wounder how how hard it is to scale some of thease archs WAYYYYY up. like just say fuck it to efficiancy an everything else and scale up navi or polaris 4-5 time what they are at. amd knows how to cool a 500w card (see 295x2) and to be honest some people REALLY dont care about power usage (see me) so create a card with complete disregard for efficiancy and go beat the titan by a far margin. throw some hmb2 on the card and i feel it may sell pretty well. plus abunch of free advertising when the card becomes a meme (see fx 5800)
     
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  29. GoodBoy

    GoodBoy [H]ard|Gawd

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    Fucking AMD get your shit together... Or just go bankrupt already so some Corporate investors can buy you up and shake out the rot... or sell you off to some other company that thinks it can do GPU's.. maybe ARM, Apple, Google could buy them...

    But this shit is getting old.
     
  30. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    They can't just scale these cards to the Moon like that. They would be expensive to produce and be extremely difficult to cool. It wouldn't meet any standards. I couldn't imagine how much power it would consume.
     
  31. renz496

    renz496 Limp Gawd

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    for as long as i can remember they have the same MSRP.
     
  32. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Nvidia does this with their arch- now scaling from the tiny power-sippers that go in low-end laptops all the way up to the full-size behemoth, all the same basic arch. And logically speaking, AMD should be able to do the same. Further, let's say they do push the standards a bit: they just require more 8-pin PCIe power connectors. Any decent enthusiast has a PSU with four of those available.

    If we assume that AMD continues to flounder behind Nvidia and Intel, then there is one logical move: split the company up, graphics to Intel, CPUs to Nvidia, contingent on Intel agreeing to let all of the x86 licensing transfer.
     
  33. cdabc123

    cdabc123 2[H]4U

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    amd is doing just fine. this decition was made to try and maximize profits and i can see it doing just that. i bet they have somthing in the works on the ultra high end market but honestly if mining stays up anywhere near what its at this move is fantastic. HOWEVER if mining crashes both nvidia and amd wont sell shit other then highend and pro gear. i truly belive both companys have somthing in the works if that happens.

    I cant comment on the actual price of producing the chip but honestly they are capable of cooling a 500w gpu and i know some people would throw a 500w card in there system if it was the best.

    graphics to intel was a real possibility. as intel continues working on there own gpus the posibility will decrease unless intel needs ip from amd. cpus would NEVER go to nvidia. and honestly amd is doing just fine on there cpus as long as they dont fall behind updating them.
     
  34. grtitan

    grtitan Telemetry is Spying on ME!

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    That one is always a funny one, given that amd owns the x86–64 license, what would intel do without it.?

    And I really dont think that AMD was stupid enough to sign that “ace” away.
     
  35. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    AMD can't with their current arch. It is pushed to the limits as is. Nvidia can push theirs farther still and still be cooler and less power drawer then Vega. Look at the Titan V.
     
  36. Mega6

    Mega6 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Channel that anger and go talk to your buddy Nv, tell them to release next gen. that they are still sitting on and pissing you off.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  37. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    Who would buy a 500 watt card that might not even beat a TI? The die on something like that would be huge and they expansive.
     
  38. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    They're doing 'just fine' because Intel is happy to innovate without them while at the same time chooses not to crush AMD by outcompeting them, which they could do tomorrow. Thing is, AMD has a habit of 'getting behind', and that's what I'd bet on. I'd prefer to get Zen2 (R7 3700?) 10- or 12-core CPUs at 5GHz with at least Skylake IPC myself for US$299, but we all know the possibility of that, right?
     
  39. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Dunno about that one. x86-64 is just the 64-bit implementation of x86 (which Intel owns), and is itself in no way innovative- the innovation on AMD's part was simply doing it when Intel wouldn't.

    Not their current arch, no- but maybe Navi won't liquefy and melt through the bottom of the case?
     
  40. NukeDukem

    NukeDukem 2[H]4U

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    Intel can't get into the dGPU game soon enough.
     
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