From ATI to AMD back to ATI? A Journey in Futility @ [H]

razor1 said:
Oh yeah also the Intel deal, which its anti competitive for AMD as well is, consoles, Intel can now build a better SOC than AMD as well :/. All of these things has to be looked into. AMD can't have Intel in their pie too. And there is no way for AMD to stop Intel from doing this because a contract that has a pharse that says Intel can't go into AMD markets because they are using AMD technologies for part of their chip, doesn't fly in court, can't stop Intel from this because a clause like that is anti competitive. If this deal that AMD and Intel are doing is really to use AMD's latest and greatest GPU tech in Intel CPU's, there will be some really big hurdles for AMD to think about in the next few years. Problems that are frankly much bigger than what they have now because it would mean Intel will be on even footing with everything AMD has and with their CPU technology and Node technology already ahead of AMD.......
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good point. Which makes me think that AMD is confident enough in Zen that it will always be a leg up on intel with next gen console APU designs. Or companies actually value and respect one another enough that they won't just screw them over. They are already doing fuckin bundles with i5/rx480 lol.
 
CSI_PC said:
Well this shows AMD business strategy being erratic as usual.
Radeon teaming up with Intel for a cut price bundle; Intel i5 6600K CPU with the MSI 480 ARMOR 8GB.

With Zen launching early next year, WTF are they doing helping push a cheap bundle with a competitor's CPU and removing a possible buyer of your own CPU out of your target audience...
http://radeon.com/en-us/radeon-intel-bundle/
And the deal: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.3305313

Idiots, they should be protecting the target audience to give their own product the best chance of sales.
But to me this again highlights the internal disconnect and possible conflicts of interest between VPs-senior management and the CPU-GPU divisions now split.
CEO needs to clamp down on the GPU business division; how much of this comes back to Raja, did the Intel-AMD deal involve him or was more broad because I am sure the CPU division would want something back if Intel is licensing iGPU tech.
Cheers
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It's the smart decision to make considering how terrible zen will be performance wise - we've known since the AotS leak that Zen will only be on par with sandy bridge at best.
 
razor1 said:
well competing with Intel is more money for R&D, they need to iterate Zen faster then Intel's updated schedules for their chips. At current schedules, Intel will maintain its lead (if Zen closes the gap, Intel will regain the same lead they had prior to Zen in 2 releases which is 3 years) Otherwise they won't be able to catch up. Just no way around that. On the GPU side of things, R&D was cut again this quarter, that doesn't look good when Navi is supposed to be the first "new" architecture since the 1st GCN was released........

After all this talk, when Raja stated they lost so much talent because of money, and they need to get that talent back and they cut R&D again? Sounds to me there are problems with RTG vs the rest of AMD.... Something isn't adding up.
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Valid points and I think AMD is trying to put out a "good enough" to get back into consumer products and not suck at power consumption. As for iterations they could also use the money to bolster chipsets instead of trying to recreate their silicon.
 
cocdod said:
It's the smart decision to make considering how terrible zen will be performance wise - we've known since the AotS leak that Zen will only be on par with sandy bridge at best.
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indeed weird. It seems like GPU division is working independently of CPU devision at this point. But given that it is on radeon page than amd page. Seems like RTG is running the show as independent devision. This actually might be a good thing as well moving the GPUs by any means necessary during holiday season.
 
cocdod said:
It's the smart decision to make considering how terrible zen will be performance wise - we've known since the AotS leak that Zen will only be on par with sandy bridge at best.
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keep in mind AMD might not be making these decisions. They are letting RTG make these decisions to move the GPUs, so if they can perform better by any means necessary so be it. They don't really have a processor to compete this holiday season so why not move sales of GPU by any means necessary.
 
NKD said:
keep in mind AMD might not be making these decisions. They are letting RTG make these decisions to move the GPUs, so if they can perform better by any means necessary so be it. They don't really have a processor to compete this holiday season so why not move sales of GPU by any means necessary.
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And for every i5 sold in this deal that is a potential Zen customer lost at launch that is not too far away......
 
cocdod said:
It's the smart decision to make considering how terrible zen will be performance wise - we've known since the AotS leak that Zen will only be on par with sandy bridge at best.
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That is like saying the 480 has terrible performance relative to the 1070 so lets screw it over....
Bear in mind Zen will not be priced same as Intel comparable tier, btw how much better is Skylake to Sandy Bridge (although I thought last Zen ES sample had it slightly higher)?
It may still be of interest to many if its single core performance is balanced well by offering consumers an 8c/16t CPU at a good price.

But some of those on older AMD CPUs might just take this intel i5+MSI 480 deal because it is a seriously good price.
Cheers
 
NKD said:
good point. Which makes me think that AMD is confident enough in Zen that it will always be a leg up on intel with next gen console APU designs. Or companies actually value and respect one another enough that they won't just screw them over. They are already doing fuckin bundles with i5/rx480 lol.
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There is no respect in business lol, its a doggy doggy world, yeah they might work together for a short term benefit, but that doesn't mean they respect each other.

And I don't think AMD is that confident in Zen. The other scenario seems more likely than confidence in Zen only because we already know AMD's "possible projections" for Server marketshare. and yeah 10% over several years doesn't give ya confidence, it gives ya AMD is going to have a lot of trouble against Intel.
 
Shintai said:
There is a lot of reasons why Intel wont do it. But this isn't one of them.
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They will be blocked, yeah mergers take place with companies in the same markets and in today's markets its more often the gov is ok with it, but that is not when a single company will have 80% of the market, Most of the mergers you are looking at end up with close to 50% of the market. This isn't one of those........
 
NKD said:
keep in mind AMD might not be making these decisions. They are letting RTG make these decisions to move the GPUs, so if they can perform better by any means necessary so be it. They don't really have a processor to compete this holiday season so why not move sales of GPU by any means necessary.
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Highly doubt they gave that much control to RTG, cause this directly effects Zen sales.
 
razor1 said:
They will be blocked, yeah mergers take place with companies in the same markets and in today's markets its more often the gov is ok with it, but that is not when a single company will have 80% of the market, Most of the mergers you are looking at end up with close to 50% of the market. This isn't one of those........
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RTG doesn't hold 80% of the market. Neither does RTG+Intel. Also Intel and RTG are not in the same segments either as such.

It would be as likely blocked as the Altera deal.
 
Intel + RTG, will get close to 80%

if AMD has 15% CPU's that means 15% of the integrated market right? That we need to leave out, AMD has 25% of the discrete market. Intel has 85% of the iGPU's,

As a whole Intel has 70% of the GPU market with their iGPU already.
 
razor1 said:
Intel + RTG, will get close to 80%

if AMD has 15% CPU's that means 15% of the integrated market right? That we need to leave out, AMD has 25% of the discrete market. Intel has 85% of the iGPU's,

As a whole Intel has 70% of the GPU market with their iGPU already.
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You forgot Nvidia since you start to include discrete. But still, you are looking too narrow at it. And nobody sane would ever block such a deal if we imaged it would happen.

I can also say that Intel+AMD+Nvidia only got less than 10% of the graphics market ;)
 
well I'm just working backwards, that's why 80% most likely its like 83%, but that's enough to block. Its a no brainier, because its a horizontal merger, not a vertical merger.
 
ChadD said:
Their agreement with Nvidia expires in March 2017. So they have to sign a new deal with Nvidia if they want to continue selling new printings of their old designs.

Or sign with the other company AMD... and use a new design.

Yes signing with AMD would cover off some overlapping patents that AMD and Nvidia aren't willing to sue each other over. Still their design would likely have to change quite a bit if they change to AMD. I do believe that is what they are going to do because Intel hates NV with a passion... perhaps more then AMD right now. Radeon has name recognition that intels own products don't.

So come march they either need to resign with Nvidia likely at higher $ then the previous deal. Or sign a deal with AMD for IP and.... stop fabbing chips with their current (nvidia cross licence)GPU and begin fabbing chips with a new (AMD cross licence) GPU. That means they would have to design a whole new Intel GPU that skirts the Nvidia patents by using the AMD ones instead.

This is why its more likely they would simply take a AMD GPU design and slot it into their own die. Why re invent the wheel. When you consider how hard up AMD is for cash... the savings Intel would be looking at would likely be pretty sizable over redesigning a GPU, or even continuing to pay Nvidia. They also get chips their marketing dept can run with.
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intel igpu are not that far behind AMD APU like what most people think. in fact they probably closing the gap. but the thing about intel is they never really push their igpu for gaming. their driver development are not as aggressive as AMD or nvidia. even if they directly take AMD gpu inside their CPU the end result probably not too different if intel did not push driver development to be on par with what nvidia and AMD been doing. and AMD themselves already having hard time with their own product. doubt that they also going to do the driver job for intel when they also doesn't have enough manpower to fully address their own problem.
 
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renz496 said:
intel igpu are not that far behind AMD APU like what most people think. in fact they probably closing the gap. but the thing about intel is they never really push their igpu for gaming. their driver development are not as aggressive as AMD or nvidia. even if they directly take AMD gpu inside their CPU the end result probably not too different if intel did not push driver development to be on par with what nvidia and AMD been doing. and AMD themselves already having hard time with their own product. doubt that they also going to do the driver job for intel when they also doesn't have enough manpower to fully address their own problem.
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Either way Intel or AMD doing the driver. It still makes more sense for Intel to just use a AMD GPU then try and redesign their own. Clearly their current design use Nvidia patents. Simply signing a deal with AMD doesn't change that. Yes Nvidia and AMD have patents that are very similar that keep them from going to court against one another. Still the patents that Intel stepped on with their own GPU where NV ones. If they had been ATI patents AMD would have taken them to court no doubt. That means the only way out of the Nvidia deal for Intel is to stop using their own infringing GPU design.

So if they sign a deal with AMD they have 2 choices. 1) Design a brand new Intel GPU, likely from the ground up knowing you can use some ATI patents and not Nvidia. (cause if they get close to touching even one Nv will have them back in court before the first fab run is out the door) 2) licence an existing GPU that has no legal issues.

As for drivers their deal with AMD could go any number of ways. Intel could continue making Intel drivers even if the part is a AMD design. There are open source AMD drivers it wouldn't be rocket science for Intel to still turn out drivers. Also part of their deal could include AMD taking care of drivers, and that deal could easily be written to include performance expectations, considering ATI will likely be getting a nice royalty if they went the licence route.
 
Gen10(Cannon Lake) and Gen11(Icelake) IGPs are already finalized and they use NVidia patents.

AMD lost graphics in the mobile segment long ago. Only the desktop left for that, despite massive throttle there as well.
 
Shintai said:
Gen10(Cannon Lake) and Gen11(Icelake) IGPs are already finalized and they use NVidia patents.

AMD lost graphics in the mobile segment long ago. Only the desktop left for that, despite massive throttle there as well.
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You have no clue on that, you are just guessing on what they use for IGP in those chips. They could have been working and knowing they were switching to AMD GPU tech. Show me one article that says Intel is using Nvidia tech in their GPU, they are using Nvidia for patent coverage to keep from being sued. You always try to twist things to suit your views.
 
Gideon said:
You have no clue on that, you are just guessing on what they use for IGP in those chips. They could have been working and knowing they were switching to AMD GPU tech. Show me one article that says Intel is using Nvidia tech in their GPU, they are using Nvidia for patent coverage to keep from being sued. You always try to twist things to suit your views.
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ROFL, no, Cannon Lake uses Gen10 and Ice Lake uses Gen11. Gen12 is even in development, too.

T5DCAXw.png
 
Rvenger said:
This is where you went wrong trolling.
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Really, are you trying to imply they dont throttle on both desktop and laptop? Its already established that AMD got a very free labelling of TDP.

Kaveri and the famous 3Ghz should be known even to you. Carrizo even more in laptops. Simply because they cant handle a combined CPU and GPU load under their TDP.

IMG0043952.png

IMG0043951.png

IMG0043948.png

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/915-1/apu-amd-a8-7600-test-ctdp-turbo-retour-kaveri.html

Carrizo and Diablo 3.
d3.png


Carrizo and Dota 2.
dota2.png

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Carrizo-in-Review-How-does-AMD-s-A10-8700P-Perform.147654.0.html

If you talk of pre Kaveri and Carrizo you would be right at least in the desktop.

But hey, easier just to label people than dealing with facts right?
 
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Shintai said:
Really, are you trying to imply they dont throttle on both desktop and laptop? Its already established that AMD got a very free labelling of TDP.

Kaveri and the famous 3Ghz should be known even to you. Carrizo even more in laptops. Simply because they cant handle a combined CPU and GPU load under their TDP.

IMG0043952.png

IMG0043951.png

IMG0043948.png

http://www.hardware.fr/articles/915-1/apu-amd-a8-7600-test-ctdp-turbo-retour-kaveri.html

Carrizo and Diablo 3.
d3.png


Carrizo and Dota 2.
dota2.png

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Carrizo-in-Review-How-does-AMD-s-A10-8700P-Perform.147654.0.html

If you talk of pre Kaveri and Carrizo you would be right at least in the desktop.

But hey, easier just to label people than dealing with facts right?
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AND it has been established that these chips are FAR OVER-VOLTED and that is the cause for the throttling on desktop. Laptops and tablets are a far different beast. My wife's a10-7870K clocked easily to 4.5Ghz with no voltage adjustments and likely could go further.
 
EuphoricRage470 said:
ROFL, no, Cannon Lake uses Gen10 and Ice Lake uses Gen11. Gen12 is even in development, too.

T5DCAXw.png
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Lots of things get developed does not mean they get used. So are you confirming it uses Nvidia tech or just patents? If it's just patent coverage it means nothing, AMD can cover the same range of patents as well. In your case you might want to hope Kyle is wrong on this rumor. I just dont see Intel wasting money and resources on a IGP in house design when they can just add one in straight from AMD and it will be better straight away. This will leave Intel free to cut people loose and lower expense, a priority of your current CEO.
 
Gideon said:
Lots of things get developed does not mean they get used. So are you confirming it uses Nvidia tech or just patents? If it's just patent coverage it means nothing, AMD can cover the same range of patents as well. In your case you might want to hope Kyle is wrong on this rumor. I just dont see Intel wasting money and resources on a IGP in house design when they can just add one in straight from AMD and it will be better straight away. This will leave Intel free to cut people loose and lower expense, a priority of your current CEO.
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My current CEO? I don't work, nor have I ever worked, for Intel.
 
I am more interested in when we hear any form of official news from this "done deal".
 
if the Intel-AMD Deal is real, Intel would be kind of obligated to announce it before the Nvidia deal ends, right?
 
BrianB said:
if the Intel-AMD Deal is real, Intel would be kind of obligated to announce it before the Nvidia deal ends, right?
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Its irrelevant to the Nvidia deal. But since it affects stocks it requires a SEC filling. And none of the companies have done that so far.
 
Shintai said:
Its irrelevant to the Nvidia deal. But since it affects stocks it requires a SEC filling. And none of the companies have done that so far.
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what i meant was, if it is financially relevant they woud have to mention it in their earnings report today
 
not just because its financial relevant that it has to be announced, its because you have two companies that have pretty much are 100% of the CPU market at least for desktop, working together, in a part that is integrated with the CPU it would have to be disclosed.
 
razor1 said:
not just because its financial relevant that it has to be announced, its because you have two companies that have pretty much are 100% of the CPU market at least for desktop, working together, in a part that is integrated with the CPU it would have to be disclosed.
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i see. so if there is a done deal, it would have to come out really soon.
 
well i guess unless there is a press release before AMD's report this rumor is debunked(?)
 
Well damn, AMD is now that much farther from being in the black.

I guess Intel will take their chances with the potential GPU tech suit, since they've already been sued by both AMD and Nvidia in the last ten years. I mean, worst case they re-license the tech just like last time.
 
Could of been AMD offering the kitchen sink and Intel wanted the bathtub too, causing AMD to back out.
 
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