Forget Expensive Soundcards

nice. did u buy the stuff online? can u provide links? i wouldn't mind doing something similar for my living room setup :D. the receiver lets you connect both subs?

ps how did u get your setup to work witht he doubles of everything? did one signal go to both receivers?
 
skimmed the thread, but here are my thoughts.

Better output (sterio, speakers, etc) will always sound better than a crappy output, however there is a limit as long as tehre is crappy input (cheep soundcard). I have a Panasonic Technics amp and over 2000watts of speaker power and it sounds amazing on my little $10 USB soundcard, I do not have a super-high-end comparison, but jsut hooking it upto my laptop, which ahs a better sound chip in it, makes a noticable difference.
 
I agree Ashton, garbage in = garbage out. Most people don't even have high-quality sources to listen to, and purchase these $X00 systems just to listen to their VBR MP3's.

This is an enthusiast forum, and there will always be people with different needs and budgets. Threads like this make me cry, because there is no blanket statement like "onboard audio sucks" or "everyone needs a sound card". There are people on both extremes of the spectrum. Someone with an unlimited budget isn't going to skip a sound card, they'll spend the 200% premium for the 15% increase in quality. By the same token, nobody really NEEDS a sound card, but then again we also don't need 4 GHz systems, 30" LCD monitors, 1000W PSU's, 2000 DPI mice, or 5.1 audio either. But they are nice luxuries to have.

In some cases, an inexpensive solution exists that also yields good quality, and an onboard system with digital out going to a nice 2.0 or 2.1 setup is a great option for those who don't want surround. On a limited budget, would you rather have a great 2.1 setup or an OK 5.1 setup? It's like the old quad vs. dual core debate.
 
-=Antimatter=- said:
Optical out will output 5.1 for all sources via DDL/DTS connect, the difference being your receiver would be the DAC instead of the X-Fi.

Just saying, optical out isn't stereo only with a Titanium. I can understand wanting to keep the advanced X-Fi processing functionality and using analog, I do it myself.
Click to expand...

I hear ya man. I've tried using the Dolby/DTS 5.1 optical out and it works. Unfortunately, you lose ALL sub-level control, crystalizer, individual channel level and distance, and for me, almost most importantly, EQ. I've got things setup now where thwey sound absolutely friggin' amazing. Music listening is so tight and crisp and gaming in 5.1 is quite immersive. Sure I'd like to be using an optical signal, but I will NOT give up any and all functionality to do it.

WHAT WE NEED... is to be able to send fully configurable 7.1 down an HDMI cable. That would be the best of both worlds...

thomasward00 said:
Using the crystalizer and Klipsch's must be shrill, those are very, very bright speakers at least Denon makes a very warm amp to tone it down.
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Well, ya either love Klipsch speakers or you hate 'em. I love 'em. I'm on my 3rd generation of the Ref. series on my home theater big setup downstairs (RF 82's etc.) With a big DENON amp down there too.
Klipsch's horns able to reproduce some things that I simply do not hear in other speakers. While they can be bright at times, a little EQ help around 2Khz-6Khz will tone 'em down. They have a way of reproducing the snare drum and kick-drum mid-bass thump like no other speakers I've listened to, and that is the frequency range that is sometimes the hardest to get right - to MY ears.... I won't even get into the cymbal section reproduction - amazing doesn't do it justice. Speakers are such a subjective thing and they range across all kinds of budgets. I've found what my ears love.

But like others have said, a lot of kids now use .mp3s and have never experienced what truly good sound can sound like... I've been a hi-fi geek for almost 2 decades...
 
Brahmzy said:
But like others have said, a lot of kids now use .mp3s and have never experienced what truly good sound can sound like... I've been a hi-fi geek for almost 2 decades...
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Part of the problem is that you're talking about a small increase in sound quality for a large decrease in convenience.
 
until devs drop EAX, we are still going to have to purchase sound cards..


furthermore,and games with optical out will only be stereo, even with a creative xfi sound card.

only dvd's and such will be 5.1 with optical out
 
mjz_5 said:
until devs drop EAX, we are still going to have to purchase sound cards and games with optical out will only be stereo.....

only dvd's and such will be 5.1 with optical out
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That is like ask devs to stop supporting AA and AF...
 
mjz_5 said:
until devs drop EAX, we are still going to have to purchase sound cards and games with optical out will only be stereo.....

only dvd's and such will be 5.1 with optical out
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Not so sure what you are saying.
You can get 5.1 gaming with digital sound out, I'm using it.
You seem to have ignored the rest of this thread.
(hint: DDL, DTS Connect)
 
Nenu said:
Not so sure what you are saying.
You can get 5.1 gaming with digital sound out, I'm using it.
You seem to have ignored the rest of this thread.
(hint: DDL, DTS Connect)
Click to expand...

however, sound cards with DDL and DTS connect do not support EAX higher than 2.0....

i have a DDL card... games with EAX sound better with it on than without
 
Atech said:
That is like ask devs to stop supporting AA and AF...
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That is perhaps not the best analogy, as plenty of devs don't support AA. There are many high profile games that don't support EAX, and perhaps more interesting is the fact that many series that previously supported EAX (e.g: Call of Duty, Half-Life) no longer do.

mjz_5 said:
however, sound cards with DDL and DTS connect do not support EAX higher than 2.0....
Click to expand...

That hasn't been true for almost two years now.
 
Brahmzy said:
But like others have said, a lot of kids now use .mp3s and have never experienced what truly good sound can sound like... I've been a hi-fi geek for almost 2 decades...
Click to expand...
Seems like you have some misconceptions about what a modern optimized MP3 encoder can achieve. Just to state a simple fact, a modern encoder like LAME 3.97 or 3.98 (the former configured to use the new psychoacoustic model) can achieve transparency at bit rates as low as ~64kbps. Other listeners listening to complex music on high end equipment may need bit rates as high as ~256kbps to achieve transparency, while only a handful of "killer samples" are discernible by a small handful from the original at archive-quality 320kbps, which is the highest bit rate universally supported by MP3 decoders.

MP3, and other lossy codecs, can absolutely offer "truly good sound". Audiophiles tend to frown upon listening to lossy music despite the fact that many may have never even so much as bothered with A/B testing.

If you want to learn more, Hydrogenaudio's a fine place to start.
 
phide said:
Seems like you have some misconceptions about what a modern optimized MP3 encoder can achieve. Just to state a simple fact, a modern encoder like LAME 3.97 or 3.98 (the former configured to use the new psychoacoustic model) can achieve transparency at bit rates as low as ~64kbps. Other listeners listening to complex music on high end equipment may need bit rates as high as ~256kbps to achieve transparency, while only a handful of "killer samples" are discernible by a small handful from the original at archive-quality 320kbps, which is the highest bit rate universally supported by MP3 decoders.

MP3, and other lossy codecs, can absolutely offer "truly good sound". Audiophiles tend to frown upon listening to lossy music despite the fact that many may have never even so much as bothered with A/B testing.

If you want to learn more, Hydrogenaudio's a fine place to start.
Click to expand...

Well, to be honest my only experience is doing Vx64 WMP .mp3 320kbps rips and comparing A/B to their lossless CD source. HUGE difference - especially on my system. I can even tell the difference between a WMP ripped 320kbps .mp3 vs. CD on my BOSE system in my Pathfinder. So, that said... I'm all about saving space and settled on .wma lossless and some FLAC. But if you're saying I can use a much better encoding program for MP3's, then I'm all about it. I'll read up on it, and thanks for the tip.

-=Antimatter=- said:
Hey for all we know he's 80 years old :p
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Sheesh, tough crowd. Mid-30's actually. Wasn't trying to be an arrogant ass, just trying to get a point across is all. :)
 
I'm using my XFI Prelude with a split analog signal to my Receiver for movies / music and klipsch 5.1 ultra for games on my pc =p

I did notice when trying to use DDL / DTSc that there was a slight delay in processing, so the sound would be off on some movies / shows / games. so I stuck to analog
 
mjz_5 said:
however, sound cards with DDL and DTS connect do not support EAX higher than 2.0....

i have a DDL card... games with EAX sound better with it on than without
Click to expand...

It seems you are a few years behind the times!
My Auzentech Prelude supports EAX 5.0 and has DDL for XP, DTS Connect for Vista.
Also nearly all the Creative X-Fi range have a purchasable download addon that enables 5.1 via digital to work on their cards as well.
The Creative X-Fi Titanium version card comes with DDL/DTS connect as standard

There is also the Asus Xonar range which support DDL and simulated EAX 5.0 in hardware.
 
Well I'm a bit confused by the idea that digital out on a soundcard vs digital out from onboard is exactly the same.

I get that a lot of those nicer soundcards I've been reading about (Auzentech Prelude, Xonar D2X) have nice DACs on them that a good receiver already has, but those cards really don't do ANYTHING else other than adding EAX effects to games?

I'm wondering because my gaming machine is in my game room hooked to my plasma tv with some (pretty) nice speakers and a decent receiver. I'd just been doing onboard sound for now (Realtek HD Audio, if I recall), but had planned on getting a decent sound card at some point soon. My receiver is an Onkyo 805 and my speakers are 5.1 Onix Rockets (a little under $3000 for the set of them) and I'm connected to my computer via SPDIF.

So if I got the Auzentech Prelude or Forte or the Xonar D2X and hooked it up with digital output, then I won't hear ANY difference when EAX is turned off?
 
AngelicPenguin said:
snip
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With your onboard sound, you should be getting surround audio in movies from your setup but only 2.1 audio in games.

A better sound card would let you get 5.1 from your games, and also allow extra processing like EAX effects before encoding the game's audio stream into DDL/DTS Connect.

As you probably understand already, the DACs on the sound card won't matter for you since you use a receiver.

Whether you like EAX effects or not is up to you...I'd suggest getting a card that can do DDL and a high level of EAX and judging for yourself.
 
criccio said:
I seriously hope you aren't implying what I think your implying... :eek:
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Absolutely... are ya freakin' DEAF in here or what? Have you actually SAT in a new Pathfinder and listened to the BOSE system? Fully time-aligned FOR the driver's seat. I did competetion car-audio ($60K+ SQ systems) for 8 years and it's by far the flattest, most dynamic, ballsy, symmetrical stock system I've ever heard. Unbelievable stage heighth and width. Image is dead nuts in the center of the steering wheel, eye-height. Grab a clean disc and find somebody with one.
 
With your onboard sound, you should be getting surround audio in movies from your setup but only 2.1 audio in games.
Click to expand...

Actually when enabling DTS Interactive (I believe that was the option in the Realtek drivers) I get 5.1 in games. It actually took me about an hour to figure that one out. I believe its supposed to encode 5.1 on the fly, but I'm not really sure.
 
AngelicPenguin said:
So if I got the Auzentech Prelude or Forte or the Xonar D2X and hooked it up with digital output, then I won't hear ANY difference when EAX is turned off?
Click to expand...

It's more than just EAX, but it does basically come down to effects. They could be done with OpenAL or DirectSound -- or it could be a DSP effect on your card, like CMSS -- but every card is going to be different.

Brahmzy said:
Absolutely... are ya freakin' DEAF in here or what? Have you actually SAT in a new Pathfinder and listened to the BOSE system? Fully time-aligned FOR the driver's seat. I did competetion car-audio ($60K+ SQ systems) for 8 years and it's by far the flattest, most dynamic, ballsy, symmetrical stock system I've ever heard. Unbelievable stage heighth and width. Image is dead nuts in the center of the steering wheel, eye-height. Grab a clean disc and find somebody with one.
Click to expand...

No offense, but Bose is not going to lend you much credibility here.
 
AngelicPenguin said:
snip
Click to expand...

On of the big scams with gaming soundcards is the company's toting "Digital Optical Out" as a feature of their card. What they aren't telling you is that that same optical out, is by design, bypassing all of the analog circuitry that made the card so pricey in the first place. And gamers, (for the most part) not knowing much about sound buy into that. All you need for clean 2 channel audio is the optical out on your mobo, which is bit for bit identical to any optical out on a pricey soundcard.USB is also a viable option for those without optical ports. I will put my Devilsound DAC up against any sound card in a pure 2 channel test.

With the advancements in DDL/DTS-C, and that it is included in some onboard audio chipsets, I don't see a future for soundcards strictly for gaming. (unless of course you fall for that gimmicky EAX crap) Of course if you have any idea what good sound is , and aren't worried about 5.1, a DAC, whether it be USB or S/PDIF will be a perfectly logical upgrade.

Now, what I didn't mention is HTPC's. The Asus Xonar HDAV is the only card so far that is truly useful in a next-generation HTPC environment, but it is still a crappy design. We will have to wait for the next card that will pass DD True HD and DTS MA over HDMI.
 
AngelicPenguin said:
Actually when enabling DTS Interactive (I believe that was the option in the Realtek drivers) I get 5.1 in games. It actually took me about an hour to figure that one out. I believe its supposed to encode 5.1 on the fly, but I'm not really sure.
Click to expand...

Then it sounds like you're good to go, you aren't missing much from EAX. You would get pretty much exactly the same sound from a higher-end card with DDL/DTSC turned on and EAX turned OFF.
 
criccio said:
On of the big scams with gaming soundcards is the company's toting "Digital Optical Out" as a feature of their card. What they aren't telling you is that that same optical out, is by design, bypassing all of the analog circuitry that made the card so pricey in the first place. And gamers, (for the most part) not knowing much about sound buy into that. All you need for clean 2 channel audio is the optical out on your mobo, which is bit for bit identical to any optical out on a pricey soundcard.USB is also a viable option for those without optical ports. I will put my Devilsound DAC up against any sound card in a pure 2 channel test.

With the advancements in DDL/DTS-C, and that it is included in some onboard audio chipsets, I don't see a future for soundcards strictly for gaming. (unless of course you fall for that gimmicky EAX crap) Of course if you have any idea what good sound is , and aren't worried about 5.1, a DAC, whether it be USB or S/PDIF will be a perfectly logical upgrade.


Now, what I didn't mention is HTPC's. The Asus Xonar HDAV is the only card so far that is truly useful in a next-generation HTPC environment, but it is still a crappy design. We will have to wait for the next card that will pass DD True HD and DTS MA over HDMI.
Click to expand...

Let me guess....never heard an EAX 5.0 game on EAX 5.0 hardware(not emulated) in 7.1? :rolleyes:
 
Auric said:
No offense, but Bose is not going to lend you much credibility here.
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Trust me, BOSE was a complete joke in car audio for a long time. Customers would come in and rave about how awesome their factory BOSE crap all the time. I would have them spend under $1K and have a world of difference in sound. Not the case with this particular vehicle. BOSE got it right. Especially for only a $1K option that I had no choice about. I would have to spend $3K at a very minimum to even touch it and have woofer boxes, amps and crap rolling around in the back, or worse spend more to custom install something with fiberglass/vinyl taking up room etc. No thanks.

ANWAY, back on topic...
 
Bose is enough of an improvement above the crap speakers that come with your Dell to sound good to the inexperienced, and expensive enough to induce a placebo effect in the same. Sometimes their NC stuff is cheap compared to the few alternatives, if you need that. But in general, overpriced crap.
 
Atech said:
Let me guess....never heard an EAX 5.0 game on EAX 5.0 hardware(not emulated) in 7.1? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

And that "EAX hardware", was it connected to PC speakers? :rolleyes:

If you tell me it was connected via 1/8" to RCA analog cables to a pre/pro's 7 channel analog inputs playing through true home theater speakers, THEN I will be impressed.
 
criccio said:
And that "EAX hardware", was it connected to PC speakers? :rolleyes:

If you tell me it was connected via 1/8" to RCA analog cables to a pre/pro's 7 channel analog inputs playing through true home theater speakers, THEN I will be impressed.
Click to expand...

What would it matter? EAX is equally discernable on any set of speakers, as it primarily handles environmental effects. Ultimately though, it depends on how the developer implements it. Some do a good job and other times its just wasted.
 
AngelicPenguin said:
Well I'm a bit confused by the idea that digital out on a soundcard vs digital out from onboard is exactly the same.

I get that a lot of those nicer soundcards I've been reading about (Auzentech Prelude, Xonar D2X) have nice DACs on them that a good receiver already has, but those cards really don't do ANYTHING else other than adding EAX effects to games?

I'm wondering because my gaming machine is in my game room hooked to my plasma tv with some (pretty) nice speakers and a decent receiver. I'd just been doing onboard sound for now (Realtek HD Audio, if I recall), but had planned on getting a decent sound card at some point soon. My receiver is an Onkyo 805 and my speakers are 5.1 Onix Rockets (a little under $3000 for the set of them) and I'm connected to my computer via SPDIF.

So if I got the Auzentech Prelude or Forte or the Xonar D2X and hooked it up with digital output, then I won't hear ANY difference when EAX is turned off?
Click to expand...

your computer generates Digital Audio by default, it has to be converted to ANALOG via a DAC(digital to analog converter) so when you use Digital outputs, the DAC's are not used, and you wont get the benefit of a $500 sound card over an onboard soundcard.

When using digital out, the untouched digital signal is passed to the receiver, if its Digital out from your pci sound card, its the same exact bit by bit digital sound that you get from an onboard sound card.

The only REAL bonus to getting a sound card, is DDL and DTS encoding which will allow you to have 5.1 from your pc to your receiver via Optical/Digital COAX. Without encoding this is not possible as the bandwidth required exceeds available bandwidth that Digital Connections provide(640kbps max?). The sound card(say a Auzentech prelude XFI) encodes the digital data your pc sends, which is like 1.5mb /s to a 640kbps or less by using Dolby Digital or DTS, then passes the encoded 5.1 signal over digital to your receiver.

:D
 
criccio said:
Oldie but a goodie for all those wondering why Bose is suddenly a horrible company that knows nothing about acoustics is only good at scamming the uninformed.
Click to expand...


Suddenly?

And why is because it's profitable, obviously.
 
Brahmzy said:
I hear ya man. I've tried using the Dolby/DTS 5.1 optical out and it works. Unfortunately, you lose ALL sub-level control, crystalizer, individual channel level and distance, and for me, almost most importantly, EQ. I've got things setup now where thwey sound absolutely friggin' amazing. Music listening is so tight and crisp and gaming in 5.1 is quite immersive. Sure I'd like to be using an optical signal, but I will NOT give up any and all functionality to do it.

WHAT WE NEED... is to be able to send fully configurable 7.1 down an HDMI cable. That would be the best of both worlds...



Well, ya either love Klipsch speakers or you hate 'em. I love 'em. I'm on my 3rd generation of the Ref. series on my home theater big setup downstairs (RF 82's etc.) With a big DENON amp down there too.
Klipsch's horns able to reproduce some things that I simply do not hear in other speakers. While they can be bright at times, a little EQ help around 2Khz-6Khz will tone 'em down. They have a way of reproducing the snare drum and kick-drum mid-bass thump like no other speakers I've listened to, and that is the frequency range that is sometimes the hardest to get right - to MY ears.... I won't even get into the cymbal section reproduction - amazing doesn't do it justice. Speakers are such a subjective thing and they range across all kinds of budgets. I've found what my ears love.

But like others have said, a lot of kids now use .mp3s and have never experienced what truly good sound can sound like... I've been a hi-fi geek for almost 2 decades...
Click to expand...


I totally agree, I was actually looking forward to SACD taking off, but today is more about Convenience than audio quality, I can clearly tell the difference between an MP3 at 320K and a regular CD. You're right that speakers are very subjective, if I were a teenager or early 20's and wanted to listen to Metal, Klipsch's would certainly be the way to go, they certainly are a "Rock Out" speaker, but i'm an old man in my mid 30's and my musical tastes have evolved to alot of Jazz and new age in addition to some games and for these I like a nice warm relaxing sound.
 
I gotta say I disagree with alot of the things said in this thread. I am not going to get into technical details, as I know very little, but I can appreciate good, quality sound.

My Setup is a digital receiver to 2 very large tower speakers.

I just upgraded my computer and noticed a HUGE drop in sound quality.

My previous setup was using a DFI Lanparty motherboard using the NFII-ultra chipset. It had nVidia's soundstorm audio processing unit on board. The audio configuration and adjustment software that was utilized by that sound processor was SOOOO good sounding through my digital coax output. I had extremely sharp bass notes hit from the 12" in my towers, and the whole range is much more crisp.

My new setup uses an Asus P5Q Se/R. It uses the realtek audio drivers. It is terrible. For one, there is limited audio adjustments. The equalizer is god awful. There are no LFE settings for sending lower notes to satellite speakers. This is awful for having no active subwoofer. The bass that was once there is extremely muddy. Finally, I have to use about 25% more volume on the receiver to get the same output from the speakers, compared to the previous setup.

I am curious if there are an alternative (advanced) set of audio drivers for the onboard realtek, or if its such a piece of garbage I shouldn't even bother. I WANT MY SOUNDSTORM BACK!
 
I loathe Realtek audio, so I feel for ya, Fryea! I'm not aware of any other compatible drivers. :(
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
When using digital out, the untouched digital signal is passed to the receiver, if its Digital out from your pci sound card, its the same exact bit by bit digital sound that you get from an onboard sound card.
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That's only true if you're outputting a Dolby Digital or DTS stream via S/PDIF bypass. Any other audio can be bit-perfect, but it isn't by default. Older sound cards such as the SB Live weren't even capable of bit-perfect playback, but even modern motherboard APUs probably are. However, you still have to bypass Windows and any DSP effects your sound drivers might be applying with an appropriate API, such as ASIO, Vista's WASAPI or kernel streaming. Granted, the resampling you get by using DirectSound won't make a big difference in sound quality, but it will allow the sound card to apply any effects you might have forgotten to turn off.

fryea said:
My previous setup was using a DFI Lanparty motherboard using the NFII-ultra chipset. It had nVidia's soundstorm audio processing unit on board. The audio configuration and adjustment software that was utilized by that sound processor was SOOOO good sounding through my digital coax output. I had extremely sharp bass notes hit from the 12" in my towers, and the whole range is much more crisp.
Click to expand...

That would be because the SoundStorm APU was coloring the sound. There's nothing wrong with preferring it that way, but if you were disable all of its processing and output unmolested digital sound, it would not sound any better than your P5Q using the same setup.

My new setup uses an Asus P5Q Se/R. It uses the realtek audio drivers. It is terrible. For one, there is limited audio adjustments. The equalizer is god awful. There are no LFE settings for sending lower notes to satellite speakers. This is awful for having no active subwoofer. The bass that was once there is extremely muddy. Finally, I have to use about 25% more volume on the receiver to get the same output from the speakers, compared to the previous setup.
Click to expand...

Generally when you use a digital connection to a receiver, the idea is that you're supposed to use said receiver to handle the LFE. In such a situation, the PC doesn't even know you have satellite speakers.
 
thomasward00 said:
I love these iQ5's and at 179 each from vanns.com they are the best bang for buck speaker out right now, they are built like tanks and sound great, very musical.
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iQ9 would have cost me $888.00 CAD. I really want Paradigm Studio60 but they are $2,000.00 CAD.
 
Brahmzy said:
But like others have said, a lot of kids now use .mp3s and have never experienced what truly good sound can sound like... I've been a hi-fi geek for almost 2 decades...
Click to expand...


A good quality .mp3 sounds exactly the same as a lossless format file to the human ear. Unless you have super hearing, which most don't. Do some ABX testing and see for yourself. These people that claim they can hear the difference like night and day are liars. Yes, I will go so far as to call them liars, here and now. To claim that just because someone uses .mp3s doesn't know what good audio is is bullshit.
 
Auric said:
That's only true if you're outputting a Dolby Digital or DTS stream via S/PDIF bypass. Any other audio can be bit-perfect, but it isn't by default. Older sound cards such as the SB Live weren't even capable of bit-perfect playback, but even modern motherboard APUs probably are. However, you still have to bypass Windows and any DSP effects your sound drivers might be applying with an appropriate API, such as ASIO, Vista's WASAPI or kernel streaming. Granted, the resampling you get by using DirectSound won't make a big difference in sound quality, but it will allow the sound card to apply any effects you might have forgotten to turn off.
Click to expand...

thanks, when saying untouched digital, I meant it hasn't been decoded yet =), not that the audio has not been altered / enhanced / etc.

I'm bad I know =(
 
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