finally, my x800pro-xtpe gave up.

[thelostrican]

Thats with R&D and RMA's. There is no way nV or ATi or any chip maker or board maker will stay in business if they didn't have at least 100% profit.

you talk to much crap, shut up allready or bring proof to the table, to much talking, truth is you dont know how much R&D goes into each design, truth is that you dont know how much a card cost to be produced, truth is that you dont know how many pro vivos will and have reach xt speeds and how many wont, and why is that ati has bring the vivos to the market and not the xt's...

all these companies are for profit companies their sole porpuse is to make money. nothing more nothing less, and unless you are deep inside of one of them you dont know any of those figures you talk so much, do yourself and others a favor, and instead of posting so much crap of what you dont know anything, go back to school if you allready graduated and if you havent is not to late. the world will be a better place.

 

[K10wN]

Hello flamewar. Can I hear the faint sound of the lock stick knocking on the door?

 

[fastcoke11]

Much closer to $500 by the way. And I'm one of those people, apparently. Thanks?? The success rate was very high with early sapphire cards.

Where did you get one for $500 CAD? That's like $200 USD. (jk, don't take that literally)

 

[rancor]

you talk to much crap, shut up allready or bring proof to the table, to much talking, truth is you dont know how much R&D goes into each design, truth is that you dont know how much a card cost to be produced, truth is that you dont know how many pro vivos will and have reach xt speeds and how many wont, and why is that ati has bring the vivos to the market and not the xt's...

all these companies are for profit companies their sole porpuse is to make money. nothing more nothing less, and unless you are deep inside of one of them you dont know any of those figures you talk so much, do yourself and others a favor, and instead of posting so much crap of what you dont know anything, go back to school if you allready graduated and if you havent is not to late. the world will be a better place.

I do know cause I know how much it costs me when I buy from nV and ATi, and I know they are still making a profit

Because thats how much Board partners are selling to retailers.

Because I can go to PNY and get the same deal I get from nV, or sapphire and get the same deal from ATi, (well about a 20 buck mark up) they have to make some money.

 

[rancor]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean facts in the literal sense. However, since you're on the subject, none of the things you mentioned were true facts either... they were conjecture. I also don't believe you when you say you worked for ATI or Nvidia, or that you're a game developer. It must take you years to code with those terrible typing skills.

Just one of those days, just wait and you will see for yourself, and all of you ********ups will know and feel really stupid.

 

[thelostrican]

I do know cause I know how much it costs me when I buy from nV and ATi, and I know they are still making a profit

Because thats how much Board partners are selling to retailers.

Because I can go to PNY and get the same deal I get from nV, or sapphire and get the same deal from ATi, (well about a 20 buck mark up) they have to make some money.

like i said you dont know crap, if you dont know the inside figures, you dont know whats going on.

 

[rancor]

like i said you dont know crap, if you dont know the inside figures, you dont know whats going on.

So then why was it mentioned that it costs certain amount to make a card then if you couldn't prove it? You yourself don't know so don't make the statement.

I know they have at least a 100% profit margin. Making chips is not that expensive even with bad yeilds you can down clock cut off pipelines etc and use them for lower end cards. your going to tell me these companies are making $100 a card on the average? I can get a card for around $250 you can guess which cards that is. Thats from board partners too. So your saying its going to cost more then 75 bucks to make a card right?

lets say it costs them $75 to make a chip for the the gf 6800 nu with all costs, RMA, research etc. That means they will charge how much to board partners? 150 bucks? And how much will the board partners going to charge retailers 300?

Sorry I forgot about the board partners before but it boils down to if it really costs that much to make a chip its not profitable.

What business do you know of that doesn't have a 100% profit margin?

now lets cut down into the profits alittle if the card costs 75 bucks to make, then lets say nV charges its board partners 50% increase. that comes out to $112.5 Then the board partners charge 50% to retialers that comes out to 170ish, then retailers have thier 80-100% profits?

Doesn't add up.

Because I can get a nu for 150ish from nV or from thier board partners board patners are a bit more of course.

That means $150 is not what the board partners are getting it for, its probably alot less, because they too have to take into thier costs and thier advertisings etc.

 

[fastcoke11]

Microsoft has been losing money on every Xbox they sell. That's a company with much less than a 100% profit margin, and they're doing very well

Also, not every company has a 100% profit margin. In fact that's a very optimistic goal. If you go outside the computer industry and they definitely don't make 100% profit. You also need to clarify that, since people might take that to mean a real 100% profit margin, which is not realistic.

 

[XMonkey-v2.0]

Pathetic, this thread has taken a major turn for the worse.

 

[fastcoke11]

Pathetic, this thread has taken a major turn for the worse.

Truth. Maybe we should just let this thread die out. This is the kind of thread that makes me not want to read the video card forum anymore.

 

[rancor]

Microsoft has been losing money on every Xbox they sell. That's a company with much less than a 100% profit margin, and they're doing very well

Also, not every company has a 100% profit margin. In fact that's a very optimistic goal. If you go outside the computer industry and they definitely don't make 100% profit. You also need to clarify that, since people might take that to mean a real 100% profit margin, which is not realistic.

Its not really an optimistic goal, most car manufactures have 75% profit margins. Most furniture retailers have a 400% margin. Most fast food have over 1000% just on thier softdrinks.

Microsoft gets a nice cut from xbox games themselves so they can selll thier consoles at a loss. Which has always been done in the console market. If it wasn't consoles will be almost as expensive as computers. When the xbox came out what was the best PC on the market? If I remember correctly right around 1 ghz with a geforce 3. Xbox was what a Gf 2 with a 766 processor. Ya want to spend 1000 bucks on a console, I don't think they would sell that many if they did that.

 

[fastcoke11]

Its not really an optimistic goal, most car manufactures have 75% profit margins. Most furniture retailers have a 400% margin. Most fast food have over 1000% just on thier softdrinks.

Microsoft gets a nice cut from xbox games themselves so they can selll thier consoles at a loss. Which has always been done in the console market. If it wasn't consoles will be almost as expensive as computers. When the xbox came out what was the best PC on the market? If I remember correctly right around 1 ghz with a geforce 3. Xbox was what a Gf 2 with a 766 processor. Ya want to spend 1000 bucks on a console, I don't think they would sell that many if they did that.

I wonder where you got that from. Industry profit margins are rarely above 22%. ATI's profit margin in 2003-2004 was 35%. So basically they made 100% profits on their cards, but somewhere else they lost 65% to make it average at 35%. It's pretty interesting.

Also, there is this article from Xbit labs. Here are some quotes:

Given that in $399 per card there is retailer’s profit, taxes, transport fare as well as graphics card manufacturer’s margin, we can figure out that it does not really cost too much money to manufacture a high-end graphics card. Maybe about $120 or $150, but definitely not more than $200, at least, in case this is not something really exclusive or, maybe, the first batch of products with low yields and so on. Considering that graphics chips only cost about $18, we can figure out that there are two more components of a high-end graphics card that may cost substantial amount of money: these are PCB and memory. Based on various reports I can say that fast DDR SDRAM or DDR-II SDRAM cost more than a GPU or even PCB; that is basically why NVIDIA decided not to utilise DDR-II memory with its NV35 because of very high price on these advanced memory products.

and

Keep in mind that there is a bunch of expenses in the price of a graphics processor: the cost of actual semiconductor (includes chipmaker’s profit margin and other expenses, such as R&D or execution), packaging, fare, R&D expenses and developer’s margin (includes profit margin as well as other expenses like advertising or execution). So, in fact, production of GPUs is not really expensive, but should be a value that is nearly a constant. Taking this fact into account we can conclude why semiconductor manufacturers try to transit to more and more advanced fabrication processes and why it is so hard for some of them.

It costs more than you think, especially when you take into account the many things they need to pay for when it comes to marketing, R&D, etc. I'm seriously doubting your claims of 400% and 1000% profit margins in other industries.

 

[rancor]

I wonder where you got that from. Industry profit margins are rarely above 22%. ATI's profit margin in 2003-2004 was 35%. So basically they made 100% profits on their cards, but somewhere else they lost 65% to make it average at 35%. It's pretty interesting.

Also, there is this article from Xbit labs. Here are some quotes:



and



It costs more than you think, especially when you take into account the many things they need to pay for when it comes to marketing, R&D, etc. I'm seriously doubting your claims of 400% and 1000% profit margins in other industries.

Go to a furinture store and talk them down you should be able to talk them at least half. That means they still have a good margin. (I have a friend that owns a Raymor and Flanigan, they have around a 400% mark up)

Cars, my next door neighbor owns an Audi/volkswagon dealer ship, even if they sell it cost they get a hefty cut back. The manufacturer has a good mark up around 75% if the dealer sells a 25k car the dealer is getting a 5k cut back (depending on the type of car sold of course)

As xbit labs said no more then 200 bucks a card, they estimated 120 -150 bucks, but does that take into account they are using the same chip for mulitple lines now? Nvidia themselves siad the gf 6 chip is cheaper to make then the nv35 line.

They started with GDDR 3 ram, then dropped back to GDDR2, that alone probably costed them a good deal of money.

Does nV make thier own PCB boards? I was under the impression they were just a chip maker They only make boards for thier workstation cards and developers cards. So your whole argument about it being expensive for nV is bogus. First off nV doesn't even make the pcb board. the Board partners do. They take the cost of the board, not nV. Wasn't sapphire making the boards for all other ATi partners too? So who's cutting the cost there? ATi cuts down thier costs by doing so. They are researching many more things then just one line of cards. Yeah there are other costs for the company, but I'm only talking about the cards and the cost of the cards not costs of everything else the company is doing.

How much does a soft drink cost by the way? $1.50? you think carbonated water with suger and additives cost that much?

 

[BoogerBomb]

After 3 weeks of unbelievable speed (29500 3dmark'01/14000 '03), vivid image quality, 585 core/1206 mem overclock and core temp. at 34C load wit water cooling, my xtpe wannabe (softmoded with ati xtpe bios) gave me black screen of death. I should known better when ATI rep told me that the card is X800pro VIfreakinVO special edition, translated ...... all those ATI built x800pro w/ 1.6 samsung mem. and xtpe gpu core and rage theater chip actually were cards that have defective dies. When manucfacturing its x800 GPUs, ATI employed a scalable design, which allows them to generate far more usable dies from a silicon wafer. When some areas of the die is defective, w/ a scalable design ATI no longer has to discard it. What they did is flashed w/ pro bios, disabled 4 pixel pipelines (from 16) and lower the core/mem clock and shipped to Compusa which in turn sell it for $399.00.
That also explained why XTPE is hard to find compared to pro. Oh, well nothing against ATI, but I learned my lesson.

See what you started!!!

 

[centvalny]

Guys, pls, all be cool runnin'.......First of all, I only Oc'd the card to 585/1206 for benchmarking. Most of the time it was clocked at normal xtpe clock. After a week I started to see random screen blinks, eventhough a really faint ones ( it was hard to notice it unless you really anticipate it ) and won't bother me. On the 3rd. week it started to freeze and spit out warning that theGPU stop responding. Then a few days later, black screen was all I can see after boot up. GPU temp. was 34/35C load OC and 28/29C idle at all time w/ swiftech block. So, this thread is all about information that hopefully can be valuable to anyone that already softmoded or just about to try it on their X800PRO VIfreakinVO card. Just remember that Silicon wafer is all the same. The difference is the way they processed it. R360 was predictable in terms of yield and quality which in turn influenced ATYT ways of production and marketing strategy( and like NVDA they don't make their own PCB and the GPU core and MEMORY CHIP). R420 is totally different ball game. We all are end users and we have one thing in common, we want a product w/ highest quality and durability and most of us will spend our hard earned $ for it . That's why there are ATI-NVIDIA, COKE-PEPSI, KUBOTA-CATERPILLAR. It is their primary and ONLY job to make us happy and satisfied.

 

[fastcoke11]

More than just ingredients goes into the whole process of making the card. So you cannot base profit on how much it costs to construct something, but rather you have to subtract all costs involved in each card and subtract it from the total revenue. All the factors of the company go into the costs of the cards. That's why they don't make as big of a profit as you claim. And my point was not that each single little company suffers a cost, but that anyone who makes them or puts their name on it all have to pay for it, so it does cost them. I can't believe I have to argue this high school economics level issue with you.

 

[fastcoke11]

Guys, pls, all be cool runnin'.......First of all, I only Oc'd the card to 585/1206 for benchmarking. Most of the time it was clocked at normal xtpe clock. After a week I started to see random screen blinks, eventhough a really faint ones ( it was hard to notice it unless you really anticipate it ) and won't bother me. On the 3rd. week it started to freeze and spit out warning that theGPU stop responding. Then a few days later, black screen was all I can see after boot up. GPU temp. was 34/35C load OC and 28/29C idle at all time w/ swiftech block. So, this thread is all about information that hopefully can be valuable to anyone that already softmoded or just about to try it on their X800PRO VIfreakinVO card. Just remember that Silicon wafer is all the same. The difference is the way they processed it. R360 was predictable in terms of yield and quality which in turn influenced ATYT ways of production and marketing strategy. R420 is totally different ball game. We all are end users and we have one thing in common, we want a product w/ highest quality and durability and most of us will spend our hard earned $ for it . That's why there are ATI-NVIDIA, COKE-PEPSI, KUBOTA-CATERPILLAR. It is their primary and ONLY job to make us happy and satisfied.

I don't know, man... I thought the primary and only job of an oligopoly was to take our money

 

[rancor]

More than just ingredients goes into the whole process of making the card. So you cannot base profit on how much it costs to construct something, but rather you have to subtract all costs involved in each card and subtract it from the total revenue. All the factors of the company go into the costs of the cards. That's why they don't make as big of a profit as you claim. And my point was not that each single little company suffers a cost, but that anyone who makes them or puts their name on it all have to pay for it, so it does cost them. I can't believe I have to argue this high school economics level issue with you.

What? both companies we are talking about just don't make graphics chips man. You can't say a chip costs x amount of dollars if you take the cost of thier motherboard research, sounds chips, xbox's research.

What all the other stuff cost nothing?

Come on does that make sense? High school econimics, ya don't even need that to differentiate the profit from cards and cards only.

Plus as centvalny said they don't make thier boards, the board partners do. So the board partners are the ones the pick up the costs of the ram, the PCB, not the chip manufactures. It doesn't cost nV or ATi 150 bucks per card, they don't spend that much money because they don't make the card only chips. (ATI still does make some of thier boards though, pretty sure the AIW are made by them, and the Made By ATI's too are from them, not sure though)

 

[Evil Scooter]

F*ck this, I'm unsubscribing from this thread. Thanks for driving it into the $hitter rancor.

 

[Emret]

I stil dont see any kind of proof regarding your 15 x800 modded cards..

 

[centvalny]

C'mon guys, [H] is forum for us to talk and share our xperience w/ this computer things and let us squeeze until the last drop of our hardware capabilities. All for enjoyment of gaming, music, movies and cleaning the kitchen. Basically, all our system can do for us w/o us doing it at all ( technology make our things easier). Just keep it that way. No matter what ATI still make money and NV keeps loosing it for now. See this chart..... and put an end of this business and profit talks. save it for those dollar heads at Yahoo fi (freakin) nance forum.

 

[burningrave101]

 

[ciggy50]

i dont think i want to post in here , but ....

are u people talking markup or gross profit ?

marking up an item 45% will give you a gross margin of around 30 % , the brake even
point being around 22%.

 

[rancor]

centvalny

You can't go by the stock price charts. If you look at total revenue and total worth of the company, nV is still way higher then ATi, but their stock prices are very close. So it doesn't add up.

nV spent like what $500,000,000 on research last year? At least that what thier CEO said that cost the gf 6 line. For the life span of these chips how many of them will be sold? 50,000,000 to a hundred million?

thats 10 - 20 bucks a chip for research. And in cost to produce it might be 30 bucks at most since this is mass production it doesn't cost much with 50,000,000 units being made. (HSI part costs 10 bucks extra for nV's board partners so to produce that would be around 5 bucks)

Yeah if ya take only 1 million units of a chip, ok its costs alot more, but how much is nV making, gross profits on thier cards, if their gross profits per year is 2 billion at least half of that is thier graphics chips (its a actually much larger then 50% amount because if bad sales for one quarter effected thier stock price ya kinda know how much they are being influenced by it).

That gives you 1 billion bucks ( here ya go edger's online nV spends about 1 billion bucks a year on everything they do) Total gross profits are 2 billion.

http://www.edgar-online.com/lycos/quotecom/glimpse/glimpse.pl?sym=NVDA

Each quarter they spend around 200-300 million

guess what there is your 100% profit

 

[hamm3rhead]

They weren't called vivo's thats why ya got to check the serials

I hate to even extend this thread but back to a more on-topic item. The mods described in the links you provided were all for standard x800 pro cards. Those cards have some variance in cores which required you to do a little info digging to verify that there were even examples of success. The X800 pro VIVO started to show up in retail when I stated and started showing up in various forums. It was easy to identify a VIVO as being different from a standard pro without even looking at a core because they came with: 1. a rage theater chip 2. 1.6ns memory. Why did people get a big chubby about this? Because they were obviously speed binned X800XT cards! I don't have to go back through forums to dig up info to try and support my ideas BECAUSE I READ THEM AS THEY PROGRESSED. This months after the fact crap is total BS.

1. I put to question your overclocking methods due to your failure rate.
2. I put to question your offhanded assumptions that temperatures could not be an issue.
3. I put to question your motivation and tactics in these forums.
4. I put to question your credentials in the blankets statements you've purported as fact.

Enough speculation, post some proof of 5 of the 15 X800 mods you have performed. Be sure to include details of exactly how and what failed in each of the 3 failed mods. Screenshots, photos, temperatures, or even benchmark scores of the purported successful mods would be excellent.

I sure hope that you can actually produce some proof, you single handedly have seen a higher failure rate for that mod then anyone in any other thread and it needs to be documented. If not for your obvious cause of bring the truth of ATI's failures to the masses, then for the little guy, the consumer, who needs your help.