Fermi comparison across reviews

[WabeWalker]

Fermi's lead tends to be LESS than 15%. In games like Crysis Fermi has almost no lead at all. BC2, a demanding DX11 game, Fermi's lead is less than 10%. Indeed, the only really demanding game where Fermi currently has a lead greater than 15% is Metro 2033.

Just Cause 2 is as demanding as Bad Company 2 - so why did you fail to mention that the GTX 480 beats the 5870 here by a whopping 25 frames per second?

And what makes you believe that the Metro numbers won't continue for other DX 11 games in the future?

The ATI cards have been out for six months now. ATI has had time to work through driver issues based on real-life gaming results - Nvidia hasn't. And yet right out of the gate the GTX 480 is running Metro a lot better in DX 11 than the 5870.

The GTX 480, at the so-called 'lower resolutions' is clearly wiping the floor with the 5870.

And I love the way you guys mix and match your arguments. In one breathe you say that we need to benchmark using modern, cutting edge games... but then you throw in Crysis, a three year old game, because you see that the GTX 480 is only beating the 5870 by 6 frames per second.

You're cherry picking the results, man. You're seeing what you want to see.

A trend has been established in the past ten years that everyone here should be aware of by now: A card manufacturer produces a new generation of card, and then between six and eight months later, they release another card with two of those GPUs on it.

Then, between six and twelve months after this, they release a new generation of card again. This new generation of card usually runs as fast as the dual GPU card of the previous generation.

The card that people need to be focusing on here for comparison is the GTX 295, because that was the dual GPU card of the previous generation for Nvidia. Anybody expecting significantly better results than that obviously had ridiculously high expectations.

The GTX 480 is posting numbers that are virtually identical to the GTX 295, and in some cases are besting them - exactly the same thing we've seen before.

 

[Ryan45]

It's funny how Far Cry 2 and HAWX are now the best games ever for Nvidia Fanboys also all of the sudden Crysis no long matters......

Oh and Golden Tiger I got my 5870 for 350 with BCB and TigerDirect.

 

[GoldenTiger]

It's funny how Far Cry 2 and HAWX are now the best games ever for Nvidia Fanboys also all of the sudden Crysis no long matters......

Oh and Golden Tiger I got my 5870 for 350 with BCB and TigerDirect.

Nice deal grats. I'm sure some will score cheap deals on the 480, as well, as they have every past release and any future release, as well.

 

[kllrnohj]

Just Cause 2 is as demanding as Bad Company 2 - so why did you fail to mention that the GTX 480 beats the 5870 here by a whopping 25 frames per second?

A 5870 gets 60 FPS in Just Cause 2 at 1920x1200 with 8xAA. That isn't really a demanding game, but its results are still included in the average that puts the GTX 480 15% faster than the 5870.

And what makes you believe that the Metro numbers won't continue for other DX 11 games in the future?

1) ATI hasn't optimized for Metro 2033, Nvidia has
2) Other DX11 games don't show the same gains as Metro 2033, making Metro 2033 an outlier, not a trend setter. This *could* change down the line, yes, but there isn't anything indicating that it will.

The ATI cards have been out for six months now. ATI has had time to work through driver issues based on real-life gaming results - Nvidia hasn't. And yet right out of the gate the GTX 480 is running Metro a lot better in DX 11 than the 5870.

Drivers are optimized per game. Nvidia has optimized for Metro 2033 (an Nvidia TWIMTBP title), ATI hasn't.

The GTX 480, at the so-called 'lower resolutions' is clearly wiping the floor with the 5870.

Congratulations? Typically people don't spend 3 times more on their video card than they do on their monitor, so results less than 1920x1200 really aren't important as there are far cheaper cards that will give you just as good an experience.

Besides, my 5870 can power 5760x1200. The GTX 480 can't, so there

And I love the way you guys mix and match your arguments. In one breathe you say that we need to benchmark using modern, cutting edge games... but then you throw in Crysis, a three year old game, because you see that the GTX 480 is only beating the 5870 by 6 frames per second.

The average across reviews shows the GTX 480 tied with the 5870 in Crysis, not beating it at all. Crysis is still one of the most demanding games available. I'm perfectly happy only comparing DX11 games, if you want. Unfortunately for you, that would exclude Far Cry 2 and Just Cause 2 - which is where the GTX 480 gets its biggest gains. Those are the two games that raise the 480's advantage up to 15%.

You're cherry picking the results, man. You're seeing what you want to see.

No, I'm just countering your cherry picking. You and GoldenTiger are practically having orgasms over Far Cry 2 and Just Cause 2 results. If those are the show pieces for the GTX 480, well, that's rather pathetic.

A trend has been established in the past ten years that everyone here should be aware of by now: A card manufacturer produces a new generation of card, and then between six and eight months later, they release another card with two of those GPUs on it.

Then, between six and twelve months after this, they release a new generation of card again. This new generation of card usually runs as fast as the dual GPU card of the previous generation.

The card that people need to be focusing on here for comparison is the GTX 295, because that was the dual GPU card of the previous generation for Nvidia. Anybody expecting significantly better results than that obviously had ridiculously high expectations.

The GTX 480 is posting numbers that are virtually identical to the GTX 295, and in some cases are besting them - exactly the same thing we've seen before.

And in some cases the GTX 480 loses to the GTX 295. GTX 480 vs. GTX 295 isn't interesting. You keep making that comparison, and so far nobody else seems to give a damn about that at all.

 

[CMD]

I don't know why you guys keep saying $500. The price is going to skyrocket to $600+, I can see these cards going for $600 to $700 because they only have anywhere from 8000 to 50000 for the first months(or this year). I read that France has received or will receive only 200 total for launch, so how many will the U.S. get?

I predict that they will make enough to trickle out to show that yes they are selling, but you have to wait for the next gen.

 

[kllrnohj]

I don't know why you guys keep saying $500. The price is going to skyrocket to $600+, I can see these cards going for $600 to $700 because they only have anywhere from 8000 to 50000 for the first months(or this year). I read that France has received or will receive only 200 total for launch, so how many will the U.S. get?

I predict that they will make enough to trickle out to show that yes they are selling, but you have to wait for the next gen.

Yeah, its going to be interesting to see what happens to its price between its massive die size and supposedly bad yields. There hasn't exactly been an abundance of 58xx series cards either, despite the much smaller die and higher yields.

 

[AmongTheChosenX]

Let's revisit this thread once 480s become available and we can judge what real retail prices settle out to be.

For what it's worth, I went red after such terrible experiences not being able to bear the high temps and loud fans of the 8800GTX and 9800GTX so Fermi is exactly the wrong card for me. If you don't mind the noise and heat and power bills, that will be fine for you.

the 8800GTX had one of most silent stock fans I've ever heard... what ar eyou talking about?

 

[hafiqb]

Price wise I also would expect te gtx480 to be above the msrp and the ati 5870 to drop back to or below the msrp.

 

[Spare-Flair]

the 8800GTX had one of most silent stock fans I've ever heard... what ar eyou talking about?

My card was a lemon. Had to RMA. The thing was spitting out 105° C and the fan had to stay on max to keep up. That basically was the same as what fermi does by design.


Regarding the street price of fermi, who knows what supply and demand will do. On one hand, we KNOW that supply is short, therefore you would expect prices to spike far higher than MSRP - but people may be wary of the power requirements and heat and therefore the demand is an unknown.

 

[Harry1969]

No, actually, you guys are jumping down *my* throat every time I say something positive about Fermi... unless someone's saying it sucks, you jump on it and call it a troll/uninformed/etc. .

Why are you trying so hard to make everybody like Fermi? Can't you just buy the damn card and enjoy it without making 10,000 posts.

 

[GoldenTiger]

Why are you trying so hard to make everybody like Fermi? Can't you just buy the damn card and enjoy it without making 10,000 posts.

All I did originally was post that I was happy with how it perfrmed... then the flamebaiting began by people, which lead to this. As I have said, I couldn't care one lick whether you think it's a good card or not: I'm just correcting outright factual errors. Normally people have a nice launch thread where they talk about their new card etc., in the past... how silly of me to expect the same for yet another video launch .

 

[DarkLegacy]

A lot of people are hating on the Fermi GPU's despite the fact of how fast they are right out of the gate. Can you imagine how fast this card will be once the drivers mature? It's laughable really but I guess people want to find anything to complain about these days. I see the whole price argument that people seem to be pulling out of there ass to be simply retarded. Well okay, to some, it's legit. Some guys however have easily thousands of dollars invest into there rigs ( according to sigs ) & they complain about a card that is slightly over $100 more than the HD 5870. I'm sorry but I'm not buying that as being a legit gripe. As mentioned before however, people will just find anything to complain about.

 

[kllrnohj]

A lot of people are hating on the Fermi GPU's despite the fact of how fast they are right out of the gate. Can you imagine how fast this card will be once the drivers mature? It's laughable really but I guess people want to find anything to complain about these days. I see the whole price argument that people seem to be pulling out of there ass to be simply retarded. Well okay, to some, it's legit. Some guys however have easily thousands of dollars invest into there rigs ( according to sigs ) & they complain about a card that is slightly over $100 more than the HD 5870. I'm sorry but I'm not buying that as being a legit gripe. As mentioned before however, people will just find anything to complain about.

If it was just a price difference I don't think people would mind. But the power and heat of the cards is obscene in addition to just average performance gain over the 5870. If this had launched a month after the 5870 it would have been completely different. But its simply far too little far too late. The GTX 470 is horribly positioned and isn't any faster than the much cheaper and efficient 5850. And the GTX 480, while being faster than the 5870, isn't faster by enough.

And the "wait for the drivers mature" argument has been used by both sides. It doesn't really change anything. Do you really think Nvidia just threw these drivers together in the last month? They've been working on the drivers for months and months now.

I want to see GTX 480 SLI put up against 5870 2GB E6 CF at triple monitor resolutions - that should be a good fight.

 

[sushiwarrior]

If it was just a price difference I don't think people would mind. But the power and heat of the cards is obscene in addition to just average performance gain over the 5870. If this had launched a month after the 5870 it would have been completely different. But its simply far too little far too late. The GTX 470 is horribly positioned and isn't any faster than the much cheaper and efficient 5850. And the GTX 480, while being faster than the 5870, isn't faster by enough.

And the "wait for the drivers mature" argument has been used by both sides. It doesn't really change anything. Do you really think Nvidia just threw these drivers together in the last month? They've been working on the drivers for months and months now.

I want to see GTX 480 SLI put up against 5870 2GB E6 CF at triple monitor resolutions - that should be a good fight.

Yes, the GTX480 is not looking so hot right now. But the GTX470 ties or beats the 5850 at FPS/$. Sure, it is much hotter and uses much more power, but we are talking about enthusiast cards here...

Nvidia can't make proper drivers without mass feedback from retail units. Their in-lab results can't allow them to really do anything fantastic. Once it launches they can make bigger jumps.

I do too want to see that match-up. TBH GTX480 SLI is the only real reason to buy a 480, as it scales very well for a multi-card config. 60%+ I believe it was.

 

[Metallikat]

Speaking as a person who would have bought a Fermi had it not been pushed back, and settled for Crossfire 5870's instead (first ATI's ever owned), the 480 is kinda disappointing. Yes, it does outperform the 5870 about 15-20%, and if you want the most powerful card I have no doubt it's the way to go. But the simple fact is for the power it consumes, for it to get so little performance gain is disappointing. For that much extra power draw I'd be satisfied with no less than 40-50% performance increase against the 5870 across the board.

 

[-SHiFT-]

I don't know why you guys keep saying $500. The price is going to skyrocket to $600+, I can see these cards going for $600 to $700 because they only have anywhere from 8000 to 50000 for the first months(or this year). I read that France has received or will receive only 200 total for launch, so how many will the U.S. get?

I predict that they will make enough to trickle out to show that yes they are selling, but you have to wait for the next gen.

If that happens then the GTX 480 vs 5870 comparison becomes a GTX 480 vs 5970 comparison, and we all know who wins that fight.

Just sayin'

 

[reaper12]

Well, this thread has been an interesting read. There is one fatal flaw in the opening post, I don't see hardocp review figures anywhere on there??

And anybody who uses http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/ reviews as the basis for real world performance needs his head examined. Other review sites vary so wildly that I sometimes think sites have got different cards or something.

Just a question to the OP, you liked the Hardocp review system when the GTX280 came out and the review showed it to be a good card. Why change your mind with this review?

There are reasons why people here, real ethusiasts, wait for Hardocp review to come out before making a judgement on a card. And you can argue agains their methodology all you want, but, the hardocp reviews are generally closest to real world performance of any card they test. As I said on another thread, you can use other review sites to prove nearly any argument you want. But, if you want real world performance, then you trust the Hardocp review.

The sound videos, for example, are great in the 480 review. You can argue about which card is loudest or show figures from other sites showing noise levels all you want, but, a few simple videos, putting the cards under the same stress and where you can just hear the card so you can make up your mind. Unless you have really bad ears, it's pretty plain that the 480 is way louder than the 5870 under full load. As you say, you can put the cards in cases etc to dampen the sounds, still pretty damn loud. Another thing to note from the video is how quick the 480 reaches full speed compared to the 5870. Maybe not an issue for some, for others might be a concern.

Another thing is availabilty, I see a few people comparing the the availability at launch of both cards. Well, there were much more 5870's available at launch time then there are 480's. I had 5870's available to sell at launch, but can't get my hands on the 480 at all. But, never mind me, I am only very small scale seller. If you go bigger something like overclockers.co.uk. They are finding it hard to get any either, but yet they too had 5870's for sale, in stock at launch. If this sounds like I am pro ATI, I am not, I am pro making money, and without any card to sell I can't make money.

to go back to the heat/noise/power of the 480, well, everyone can decide for themselves what they want. To lots of people it won't matter, to others these things will be a major factor in their purchasing choice.

And overclocking, come on, you can't judge a card (from either company) on the cherry picked examples they send to reviewers. Wait until the cards that the general public will buy are out, then we can discuss overclocking potential. And I presume, it will be just like overclocking most others cards, some will overclock fine, some won't, but if you do overclock, there will be more power needed and more heat produced and there is always a chance you will brick your card.

 

[Spare-Flair]

As you say, you can put the cards in cases etc to dampen the sounds, still pretty damn loud.

In my experience, that actually can cause the case to resonate and the percieved sounds and frequences are even worse and more apparent and more annoying - then you start padding your case with foam - which insulates the heat in the case even more so it's a tough situation.

I am really interested to hear what goldentiger, mcartney, wabe walker, etc. think of their cards when they actually recieve them. I genuinely am.

All this arguing about FPS numbers, cherry picking, price, etc. is pointless because everybody needs to just buy the card that is best for themselves. The 5870 and 480 provide different value to the user at different resolutions. The 480 is undoubtely almost always faster but it's true that in DX11 and higher resolutions, the gap sometimes narrows. The 480 will be much faster in any game with heavy tessellation or phys-x of course. Regarding all these game benchmarks - if it's not a game that you play - don't worry about it. Get the best bang for your buck for the games that you DO play.

 

[JayteeBates]

Once the 480 is out I'm sure we'll see Bing CashBack deals with it too... no reason we wouldn't since they're vendor-wide percent discounts .

Most people buying $500 video cards, which to most are frivolous expenses since many buy whole computers for $200-250, don't really care about the heat/etc. I wouldn't think.

With regard to heat - in the past I would totally agree with you. However, I consider it a factor now that they are getting to the point they are essenatially mini-space heaters. Before my GTX295 I never cared about heat/power or noise. Then I noticed that the GTX295 made the room comfortable over the winter and downright warm/hot over the summer. That was one reason I swapped over to the 5870. I hate being hot.

So I would say heat - at the point these cards are getting to - is going to become a factor for more [H] readers than in the past.

 

[ELox]

I really don't think Golden Tiger is an Nvidia Fanboy at all. If you look at his past posts it's obvious he doesn't have brand loyalties that blind his vision. That being said, some people like to justify purchases they make and it creates a bias. I'm guilty of doing so myself, I'll downplay the pros of the competition or present the facts that best suit the argument that I'm trying to make for something that I will be purchasing. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be right and presenting the facts that justify your investment, but we all have biases and for many of us it has nothing to do with brand, rather it has to do with justifying what we've spent our money on or plan to.

I bet Golden Tiger could make a compelling argument for the ATI series of cards against the Fermi if he was so inclined. I just think he's not inclined to do so because he is purchasing a Fermi and not an ATI card right now. Since GT is purchasing a 480 because of a bad personal experience with his 5870 then I'd say more power to him and I hope the new card works out better for him. I have no doubt that when the time comes for GT to make his next purchase if that is going to be an ATI card that he will be making the same presentation of facts to justify that purchase regardless of brand.

 

[thehybridfrog]

Coke idles at 0.1C colder than Pepsi in ambient, discuss.

No, but seriously. What may seem like a bad choice now can totally change in the future. 85% of all statistics are made up on the spot, the other 67% have caveats or small print to guide you in understanding them. No review web-site (except maybe [H]) can really show you what you are truly gaining by going from one card to the next. Who cares if you can game at 77 fps versus 72 fps with the same level of detail?

Fermi is Nvidia's bet on the future. In 6 months or so, we'll know if it was the right choice. But seriously there's really no right or wrong choice right now, it's all a bet unless you already have a 5870 in your system. The only people who should be concerned right now are people looking to purchase a 480, if you already have a 5870 and have no intention of purchasing a 480, your opinion is really (in my opinion - which is still just an opinion) is already biased.

 

[Metallikat]

I am really interested to hear what goldentiger, mcartney, wabe walker, etc. think of their cards when they actually recieve them. I genuinely am.

Even if he ends up hating it, I seriously doubt he'd actually fess up to it. After all the "Fermi is gonna be the most awesomest thing evar!!!!!", even if it catches fire and burns down his house he's going to be in here posting about how amazing it is. He simply has too much invested into it now to do otherwise.

 

[Spare-Flair]

I really don't think Golden Tiger is an Nvidia Fanboy at all. If you look at his past posts it's obvious he doesn't have brand loyalties that blind his vision. That being said, some people like to justify purchases they make and it creates a bias. I'm guilty of doing so myself, I'll downplay the pros of the competition or present the facts that best suit the argument that I'm trying to make for something that I will be purchasing. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be right and presenting the facts that justify your investment, but we all have biases and for many of us it has nothing to do with brand, rather it has to do with justifying what we've spent our money on or plan to.

I bet Golden Tiger could make a compelling argument for the ATI series of cards against the Fermi if he was so inclined. I just think he's not inclined to do so because he is purchasing a Fermi and not an ATI card right now. Since GT is purchasing a 480 because of a bad personal experience with his 5870 then I'd say more power to him and I hope the new card works out better for him. I have no doubt that when the time comes for GT to make his next purchase if that is going to be an ATI card that he will be making the same presentation of facts to justify that purchase regardless of brand.

He seems to have had a bad experience with ATI as well. He hated his 5870. I'm afraid he'll have an even worse experience with the GTX 470 he's buying.

 

[TheBuzzer]

nvidia cards always seem more powerful but more prone to failure for me. ati card has been weaker but more stable . I am going for ati this time, wonder will i won the ebay bid on the 5870.

 

[GoldenTiger]

He seems to have had a bad experience with ATI as well. He hated his 5870. I'm afraid he'll have an even worse experience with the GTX 470 he's buying.

Hope not, but I will let everyone know if I do, believe me.

Even if he ends up hating it, I seriously doubt he'd actually fess up to it. After all the "Fermi is gonna be the most awesomest thing evar!!!!!", even if it catches fire and burns down his house he's going to be in here posting about how amazing it is. He simply has too much invested into it now to do otherwise.

I have no malicious desire to see people buy something that's going to be a bad part... if I don't like the card I get believe me you'll hear it .

I really don't think Golden Tiger is an Nvidia Fanboy at all. If you look at his past posts it's obvious he doesn't have brand loyalties that blind his vision. That being said, some people like to justify purchases they make and it creates a bias. I'm guilty of doing so myself, I'll downplay the pros of the competition or present the facts that best suit the argument that I'm trying to make for something that I will be purchasing. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be right and presenting the facts that justify your investment, but we all have biases and for many of us it has nothing to do with brand, rather it has to do with justifying what we've spent our money on or plan to.

I bet Golden Tiger could make a compelling argument for the ATI series of cards against the Fermi if he was so inclined. I just think he's not inclined to do so because he is purchasing a Fermi and not an ATI card right now. Since GT is purchasing a 480 because of a bad personal experience with his 5870 then I'd say more power to him and I hope the new card works out better for him. I have no doubt that when the time comes for GT to make his next purchase if that is going to be an ATI card that he will be making the same presentation of facts to justify that purchase regardless of brand.

I'm quite sure I could, and it would probably be more convincing than my arguments for buying a Fermi have been I'd imagine . I'll readily admit that I went a bit overboard with how I was looking at the performance #'s in a bit-too-positive light the past few days. It really does have nothing to do with the brand as far as that goes, it was more just "buyer's defense" just as I'm sure many who were arguing with me were being harsher than they normally might be when stating their opinions.