Feral Interactive: What are your thoughts?

IdiotInCharge said:
Twenty years ago for office work, gaming, and a host of other uses, your choice was Windows or MacOS: and MacOS meant more expensive and (for most the most part) inferior hardware. Only very specific applications were advantageous on Apple. Linux, outside of server and hobbyist usage, wasn't on the map; the applications, and for gaming the drivers, simply weren't there. And I was running a Linux server.
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20 years ago was 1997, I think you're back in 95 or earlier.
 
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BulletDust said:
What are you on about? Who's mentioned antitrust cases?
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Take a breath, slow down a bit. Old farts like me remember 20 years ago and remember very well how Linux folks saw this as an opening. Whatever you think of Microsoft and Windows 10, the anti-trust stuff from their home government was a huge blow to Microsoft.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
Regardless of what Windows is doing?

Sorry, unless Linux gaming overtakes Windows gaming in market share and innovation, Linux gaming will be defined in terms of Windows gaming. With respect to your facts leading to a 'wholehearted assumption', you can add that fact too.

Evidence: we're literally talking about (and praising) a company that is porting games from Windows to Linux.
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You're not going to overtake Windows in market share any time soon, yet development under Linux is increasing far faster than it was ~5 years ago. Obviously developers are seeing promise beyond market share, indicating that market share alone is not the reason for the popularity of Windows as a gaming platform.
 
BulletDust said:
20 years ago was 1997, I think you're back in 95 or earlier.
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The US formally charged Microsoft with anti-trust violations on May 18, 1998. If you're history is that bad, take a break. I mean, how the hell do you not understand this?
 
heatlesssun said:
Take a breath, slow down a bit. Old farts like me remember 20 years ago and remember very well how Linux folks saw this as an opening. Whatever you think of Microsoft and Windows 10, the anti-trust stuff from their home government was a huge blow to Microsoft.
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I can see what you're trying to do Heatlesssun. ;)

I'm 45, I remember just as much as you do. Twenty years ago Linux had no hope, twenty years ago Windows was being force installed on OEM machines.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
Sorry, unless Linux gaming overtakes Windows gaming in market share and innovation, Linux gaming will be defined in terms of Windows gaming.
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Which is kind of silly for people that are praising Valve to forget that they are currently a huge backer of VR and a year after it's working fine on Windows the state of Linux is beyond fucked and macOS is getting support before Linux is half way functional? Go Steam Boxes!

Linux folks got played hard on this. You get a few games and piss poor Windows ports, which according to ChadD were PS4 ports to start.
 
heatlesssun said:
Which is kind of silly for people that are praising Valve to forget that they are currently a huge backer of VR and a year after it's working fine on Windows the state of Linux is beyond fucked and macOS is getting support before Linux is half way functional? Go Steam Boxes!

Linux folks got played hard on this. You get a few games and piss poor Windows ports, which according to ChadD were PS4 ports to start.
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I'm so fucking sick of VR.
 
BulletDust said:
I can see what you're trying to do Heatlesssun. ;)

I'm 45, I remember just as much as you do. Twenty years ago Linux had no hope, twenty years ago Windows was being force installed on OEM machines.
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So 20 years later, what has changed? Linux folks were blasting the fuck out of Windows for essentially the same things you guys do today. And how many times have you complained about people not have the options for OSes besides Windows today.

You're going in circles dude.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
It's easy to get sick of points that undermine yours :D
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And how do they do that? Once again, naturally development of VR under Linux is behind Windows, Windows has a good 12 month+ lead and Linux is not Windows! ;)
 
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heatlesssun said:
So 20 years later, what has changed? Linux folks were blasting the fuck out of Windows for essentially the same things you guys do today. And how many times have you complained about people not have the options for OSes besides Windows today.

You're going in circles dude.
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I've already explained what's changed, you're creating circles by not reading, dude. ;)
 
heatlesssun said:
Take a breath, slow down a bit. Old farts like me remember 20 years ago and remember very well how Linux folks saw this as an opening. Whatever you think of Microsoft and Windows 10, the anti-trust stuff from their home government was a huge blow to Microsoft.
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It would have been so amazing if they were busted up at that point. I think the public was talking about splitting them along their OS and Office divisions. It would have been magical. No telling where we'd be at this point.
 
BulletDust said:
Oh Linux supports VR, if it didn't you wouldn't be able to brag about being the Linux VR master. ;)
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You use the term supports loosely. I've been playing games on computers for 35 years and I've simply never had the joy in it even at 49 I'm getting from current VR, at least as a 49 year old. I understand perfectly every issue you've mentioned. Hell I even had to adapt to auto locomotion. Just bought a bunch of Steam VR games, taking the day off today to play some. I just finished Superhot VR. DAYMN! That is the very best game play experience I've ever had in my life. I have the conventional game and never got it though it is a popular conventional game, even have a Linux version. In VR, while it doesn't have the movement of a conventional game, nails the speed of motion aspect of the game. Holding out a gun or knife to stop bullets in slow mo, timing throws and gun fire, it's just works so well with this game.

I get it, you're sick of VR, I feel like I'm just getting started.
 
heatlesssun said:
You use the term supports loosely. I've been playing games on computers for 35 years and I've simply never had the joy in it even at 49 I'm getting from current VR, at least as a 49 year old. I understand perfectly every issue you've mentioned. Hell I even had to adapt to auto locomotion. Just bought a bunch of Steam VR games, taking the day off today to play some. I just finished Superhot VR. DAYMN! That is the very best game play experience I've ever had in my life. I have the conventional game and never got it though it is a popular conventional game, even have a Linux version. In VR, while it doesn't have the movement of a conventional game, nails the speed of motion aspect of the game. Holding out a gun or knife to stop bullets in slow mo, timing throws and gun fire, it's just works so well with this game.

I get it, you're sick of VR, I feel like I'm just getting started.
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So what's this got to do with Feral Interactive? Are you seriously implying that I haven't been playing games on computers for 35 years simply because I didn't sell my soul to Microsoft?
 
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Frobozz said:
It would have been so amazing if they were busted up at that point. I think the public was talking about splitting them along their OS and Office divisions. It would have been magical. No telling where we'd be at this point.
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I think that by the point you're under anti-trust violations the damage has been done. And I'm the first to admit that Microsoft did a lot of dirty shit, no question. But they have no presence in mobile devices. Linux does rule servers and the kernel mobile clients. When it comes to PCs, 60 different Linux distros? Not really sure where that would be going. Plus so much hate over things that work very well under Windows like gaming.

I just don't think Linux folks care about people and what they want to do anymore than Microsoft. Most of the stuff I do with PCs, it doesn't come from Microsoft. Like VR, wow Linux folks hate it. Microsoft has yet to release their mixed reality stuff to consumers. I never have had the feeling that Linux folks like choice or options or anything unless somehow it's about Linux. I never once thought about VR in terms of Windows. I simply knew that was what I needed for it because, well, when it comes to gaming on PCs, Windows?

I've long noticed you're fake quote from me. And that's okay. It's not like I'd convince the pro-Linux people here otherwise. But yeah, when it comes to PC gaming, you can put me down for that quote. What a clusterfuck gaming is under Linux even still.
 
How can a distro made by the people not care about the people?

If you think Linux gaming is a clusterfuck, WTF are you doing here in the Linux forums?

So many fails in the above post it's just not funny.:rolleyes:
 
BulletDust said:
So what's this got to do with Feral Interactive?
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Goes with the general spirt of the OP. I'd been out of high end gaming for about 5 years before I put together this sig rig last year and then added some upgrades. The reason why PC gaming is growing is because it's getting insane with the right hardware. You cannot do all of this shit on a console or a phone or a tablet or a Chromebook. You have all of the experience. People like you are always asking when the last time some tried Linux. Have you even touched modern Windows PC gaming in the last year?
 
heatlesssun said:
Goes with the general spirt of the OP. I'd been out of high end gaming for about 5 years before I put together this sig rig last year and then added some upgrades. The reason why PC gaming is growing is because it's getting insane with the right hardware. You cannot do all of this shit on a console or a phone or a tablet or a Chromebook. You have all of the experience. People like you are always asking when the last time some tried Linux. Have you even touched modern Windows PC gaming in the last year?
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Yes I have. Still don't see any relevance to Feral Interactive under Linux.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
Definitely market share (how is this even a question?)- Linux gaming is a horrible return on investment proposition from the developers' perspective, which means those interested in gaming on Linux should be thankful for a company like Feral to do ports. API wrapper-burdened versions that approach playable are better than no version at all, and you really can't take it out on Feral: the only other option is to rewrite renderers engine by engine, and perhaps game by game.

So, if a game/engine is written for DX, which is nearly all, and no OpenGL/Vulkan support was included, you get a half-speed port. If they did use something that maps better to OpenGL/Vulkan, including potentially DX12 (which should be more similar to Vulkan than DX11 and its predecessors are to OpenGL), a lighter wrapper or even a full code port may be possible within financial constraints.
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You can't paint broad strokes like that. Some developers make a good return on Linux. The developers of Thimbleweed Park stated that 1/3 of their sales were from mac and Linux and they would be silly to ignore these platforms.

https://www.gamingonlinux.com/artic...-that-linux-and-mac-sales-have-been-good.9584
 
I love what Feral are doing and I'll buy a slow port with no intention of ever playing it simply because it's available under Linux. Why would I do such a thing? Because I've been gaming all my life, I believe great games should be available to anyone and being able to set up a second hand machine with a free, and great, OS for people to play that aren't privledged enough to have access to the latest and greatest hardware or VR is a wonderful thing - I believe that supporting gaming under Linux benefits everyone, including Windows users.

Nothing better than grabbing a few machines out of the scrap pile for a LAN game of HL2DM with mates or even my young nephews when they come over when it hardly costs me a cent.

I may not be able to game as much as I'd I like these days for a number of reasons, but I'm a real gamer, not some god damn show pony flogging my ewang.
 
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IdiotInCharge said:
Sorry, game developers with exception to those making games with cheap NES-era graphics, while we talk about AAA-games and their developers.
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Are we, when did we specify that? If I'm changing history (which I'm not), than you just shifted the goal posts.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
The OP set the goal-posts. Didn't you want to get back to that?

Lol.
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Why, because he mentioned Feral? As a AAA developer Feral port to Linux, they see something that's not based around market share. No where was it mentioned that discussion was primarily based around AAA developers, you've just assumed that.

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BulletDust said:
Why, because he mentioned Feral? As a AAA developer Feral port to Linux, they see something that's not based around market share. No where was it mentioned that discussion was primarily based around AAA developers, you've just assumed that.
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We're literally talking about porting AAA games. You want to point out that a side-scroller is an exception? I already granted that, but it's outside of the discussion literally because those types of games both don't run into the technical issues that Feral faces (that cause poorer performance on Linux), and don't have the market share nor market appeal to make a difference.

Nice exception! Back to the topic.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
We're literally talking about porting AAA games. You want to point out that a side-scroller is an exception? I already granted that, but it's outside of the discussion literally because those types of games both don't run into the technical issues that Feral faces (that cause poorer performance on Linux), and don't have the market share nor market appeal to make a difference.

Nice exception! Back to the topic.
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Dear God. Whatever, manipulate the discussion to totally suit yourself based on something you completely made up.

Back to the discussion on Feral Interactive who obviously see something in Linux apart from absolute market share. ;)
 
I started reading then stopped.... how the hell did the little Feral interactive thread end up going on a tangent about VR.

Oh ya heatle showed up. lol
 
IdiotInCharge said:
We're literally talking about porting AAA games. You want to point out that a side-scroller is an exception? I already granted that, but it's outside of the discussion literally because those types of games both don't run into the technical issues that Feral faces (that cause poorer performance on Linux), and don't have the market share nor market appeal to make a difference.

Nice exception! Back to the topic.
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Ok first off not every "port" is slower. Feral has put out some games like Xcom2 that in fact run faster under Linux, even though they are technically ported. If Feral is porting a game using an older engine like Unreal 3 (which xcom2 runs on) that can be rebuilt to use open gl instead of a wrapper... they have in fact found away to improve performance over the DX running windows version.

In general yes ports are slower by their nature... and they also won't be needed in the future. Games running the Unreal 3 engine need a port, and a API change to opengl/vulkan. Games running unreal 4 need no porting at all. The future is still looking good for Linux gaming thanks to valve and the industry in general creating actual cross platform game engines and programming / API frameworks. AAA games have a 4-5 year development cycle which is why we are still getting new games running on things like Unreal3. The ground work is laid for the non-port future. So the whole ports will never be as fast argument is about to die off naturally anyway.

(Edit also yes heatle this will also benefit Windows gaming as many of those native PS4 games you love will also not require "porting" to run on windows.)
 
ChadD said:
Ok first off not every "port" is slower. Feral has put out some games like Xcom2 that in fact run faster under Linux, even though they are technically ported. If Feral is porting a game using an older engine like Unreal 3 (which xcom2 runs on) that can be rebuilt to use open gl instead of a wrapper... they have in fact found away to improve performance over the DX running windows version.

In general yes ports are slower by their nature... and they also won't be needed in the future. Games running the Unreal 3 engine need a port, and a API change to opengl/vulkan. Games running unreal 4 need no porting at all. The future is still looking good for Linux gaming thanks to valve and the industry in general creating actual cross platform game engines and programming / API frameworks. AAA games have a 4-5 year development cycle which is why we are still getting new games running on things like Unreal3. The ground work is laid for the non-port future. So the whole ports will never be as fast argument is about to die off naturally anyway.

(Edit also yes heatle this will also benefit Windows gaming as many of those native PS4 games you love will also not require "porting" to run on windows.)
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This is literally the part of my argument that you scrolled past- just noting that the 'porting' of games is still a few years behind, but catching up.
 
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IdiotInCharge said:
This is literally the part of my argument that you scrolled past- just noting that the 'porting' of games is still a few years behind, but catching up.
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Fair enough :)... I have gotten to the point where I just scroll past most of heatles rants about VR. He likes to go "but but but VR" in every Linux related thread he comes across. :)
 
ChadD said:
Fair enough :)... I have gotten to the point where I just scroll past most of heatles rants about VR. He likes to go "but but but VR" in every Linux related thread he comes across. :)
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I agree that he can come across as a zealot or VR as much as some Linux people do about Linux, but he has a point: it's one area where innovation is happening, and the experience and material that make it up are both a bit of a 'clean break', somewhere where Linux could (and in his argument should) have gotten heavily involved. This would push Linux toward equal footing on games as gaming moves toward VR, and assuming that VR headsets advance the same way cellphones have in the last decade or so, you could see VR being the near total future of gaming.

So I get his point that Linux is missing out 'again'.

Main reason I don't chime in there is that I haven't had a chance to really dig in to VR, and probably won't for another year or two, so I don't have a complementary experience to draw from.
 
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I don't agree Linux should get heavily involved with VR development. IMO its a dead tech that isn't ever going to be a thing. AR has perhaps a future, but that also hasn't been proven in any real sense yet. VR is never going to advance in the same way cell phones did. Everyone can use Cell phones... 10-20% of the population depending on the study will do nothing but regurgitate their lunch using VR, and as many as 60% of the population wear corrective lenses with a good number of those using heavy enough prescriptions to make VR more expensive for them. The fact is the vast majority of computer gamers are playing on integrated GPUs... GPU tech and VR tech is no where close to being ready for mainstream adoption, and it isn't likely to be their for another 10-20 years if ever, its very likely they will never really have a solution for the 1 in 5 people that throw up with a headset on.

I think the development we have with Valve ensuring the systems work is good and enough. If it takes off the platform will support it. But to spend tons of $ on something that has a better chance of failure at this point is imo at least silly. Linux could use tons of $ spent on improving gaming in general and I would rather Valve and other boosters like GOG spend their R&D budgets there.
 
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Except Linux isn't missing out on anything, there's something like 88 VR titles available for Linux under Steam and development is probably on par with Apple (and yes, I'm fully aware that Apple has 'slightly' more VR titles).

Windows, as always, has a head start in development over anyone and it's safe to assume that due to X server Linux is going to have more issues in relation to development. VR is supported under Linux as beta and development is ongoing, I see no evidence of Valve dragging their heels in relation to Linux VR adoption, all I see is the opinion of a VR zealot that thinks his superior due to the fact he can justify the cost of the necessary equipment.

Having said that I agree with ChadD. I see no evidence of VR gaining mass market adoption any time even remotely soon, no matter how many tech companies want to jump on the VR bandwagon - The cost of both the headset and associated peripherals, not to mention a machine powerful enough to provide a decent experience, is a point no VR tech company wants to even openly comment on yet, even when directly presented with the question.

However this is not a discussion about VR.
 
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ChadD said:
I don't agree Linux should get heavily involved with VR development. IMO its a dead tech that isn't ever going to be a thing. AR has perhaps a future, but that also hasn't been proven in any real sense yet. VR is never going to advance in the same way cell phones did. Everyone can use Cell phones... 10-20% of the population depending on the study will do nothing but regurgitate their lunch using VR, and as many as 60% of the population wear corrective lenses with a good number of those using heavy enough prescriptions to make VR more expensive for them. The fact is the vast majority of computer gamers are playing on integrated GPUs... GPU tech and VR tech is no where close to being ready for mainstream adoption, and it isn't likely to be their for another 10-20 years if ever, its very likely they will never really have a solution for the 1 in 5 people that throw up with a headset on.

I think the development we have with Valve ensuring the systems work is good and enough. If it takes off the platform will support it. But to spend tons of $ on something that has a better chance of failure at this point is imo at least silly. Linux could use tons of $ spent on improving gaming in general and I would rather Valve and other boosters like GOG spend their R&D budgets there.
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Whatever the future of VR becomes what you're saying for now is suspension of reality. VR development right now is red hot considering the size of its user base. There's a lot of stuff known to be in the pipeline that's not been released. AAA titles are coming out. Valve and HTC are constantly making improvements to the Vive, the Vives on sale now have been upgraded a bit from the one I just bought six months ago.

Call it dead when it makes some sense but calling VR a dead at this point is litterally this opposite of the situation. Valve has over 1100 VR only titles in this library currently in only 14 months and it's growing faster than Linux titles. I don't see VR gaming going away anytime soon anymore than Linux gaming. It may forever be niche but there will be those who want and willing to pay for the experience.
 
heatlesssun said:
Whatever the future of VR becomes what you're saying for now is suspension of reality. VR development right now is red hot considering the size of its user base. There's a lot of stuff known to be in the pipeline that's not been released. AAA titles are coming out. Valve and HTC are constantly making improvements to the Vive, the Vives on sale now have been upgraded a bit from the one I just bought six months ago.

Call it dead when it makes some sense but calling VR a dead at this point is litterally this opposite of the situation. Valve has over 1100 VR only titles in this library currently in only 14 months and it's growing faster than Linux titles. I don't see VR gaming going away anytime soon anymore than Linux gaming. It may forever be niche but there will be those who want and willing to pay for the experience.
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Are Feral Interactive releasing VR titles for Linux?
 
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