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Fallout 4

What SPECIAL dialogue checks? Show me one that's not related to Charisma.

I think the Red ones are a Strength check? They usually sound intimidating and threatening. But yeah the dialogue choices have really been dumbed down and that's pretty much my one big gripe with the game. I loved having high intelligence and out smarting people in conversations. I guess that's the downside to having fully voiced out dialogue for the main character, less choices.
 
I think the Red ones are a Strength check? They usually sound intimidating and threatening. But yeah the dialogue choices have really been dumbed down and that's pretty much my one big gripe with the game. I loved having high intelligence and out smarting people in conversations. I guess that's the downside to having fully voiced out dialogue for the main character, less choices.

No. The colour simply pertains to the difficulty of the speech check. It's all Charisma based.

There are no more Intelligence, Science, Explosives, Perception, etc, speech checks. But some people still think that it's a step forward.
 
The more I play FO4 the less I like it, and that's saying something as I've been a huge fan of the series from FO1. This game is a significant downgrade in gameplay from FO3 and F:NV. So much of the core mechanics that made for the immersive RPG experience of previous games have been stripped out reducing it to an uninspiring marriage of a first person shooter and the sims.

I guess I'l start with the good:
  • The FPS portion is much better, but still is average as a shooter. Regular combat functions OK. Enemies now continue moving in VATS (dramatically slows but doesn't pause the game).
  • The weapon customization is cool, and crafting works better.
  • Radiation actually matters now.


Things that have taken a huge downgrade:
  • Somewhere out there is a nice interview stating that giving the player a varied choice of dialogue in fallout 3 didn't allow them to tell a story quite like they wanted. You know what the problem is? A role-playing game isn't about being told a story, it is about making your OWN story. Especially in one like Fallout. All this talk from Todd Howard bout how player freedom remains their number one goal, yet they cuddle you through the whole story.
  • After I saw the "wheeled" dialog choices and the player character speaking it made me think of Mass effect, but it's not even close in terms of immersion. I didn't feel attached to any of the characters in Fallout 4, and the dialogues were very unsatisfying, and boring. All you get to choose is “Yes”, “No”, “Sarcasm” type of responses. Hell, is it really necessary to point out that a certain response might be sarcastic? It's a simple concept. If you point out that something is sarcastic in advance, it kind of defeats the whole purpose of sarcasm! It’s not funny or witty anymore. Not that it matters anyways.....
  • ^That's not even the the worst part of the dialog.. the most horrifying part is that it DOESN'T MATTER AT ALL - No choices are really made, no matter what you choose the game directs you down the same path. That's right you can't be choose to be good, evil, a bit of both, etc. This is NOT an RPG in any way, it's a action/adventure shooter. This is an on rails adventure with a complete lack of shades of grey story, it's Good vs Evil, and you can only be good.
  • No Karma system. Feel free to loot "owned" items, it doesn't impact anything anyways.
  • Poor side quest design, almost all in line with MMO "quality". I was really sad when I found out the side quests basically all are: "We need help killing raiders at such and such location". You do that and they just give you another "clear this area quest". There is no story progression or choice. Just infinite rinse and repeat the same quest over in a different location.
  • The characters are completely uninteresting. Remember the Kings from F:NV? Fotrget about zany stuff like that. Gone are the different characters scheming against one another and your actions lead to different outcomes. Everyone is basically a farmer living in an isolated shack on a hill and they all need help stopping raiders (as above).
  • Complete removal of skills, giving birth to a streamlined, watered down perk system. SPECIAL doesn't even really matter anymore. There are no perk/skill/stat-based dialogue checks. So if you liked having a very perceptive or intelligent, maybe even a cannibalistic character with some cool dialogue, say goodbye to that.
  • You can use all weapons regardless of type right from when you find them (no more specialization requirements). Part of the fun in building your character was choosing it's abilities.

In summary, Fallout 4 lacks the RPG elements of previous Fallout games. The game ages quickly after what seems to be a cool intro and a good start. The first couple hours of the game feels enjoyable, but when you want to dig deeper, there's nothing to dig. By that time you've already done and seen everything this game has to offer. I'd give this game a 4/10 and that's me being generous..

Most of the thing you listed, imo, have been issues with all their games. New Vegas had more options yes but it was done by a different company. We might wish they had moved more in that directions but I didn't really expect to them to improve that drastically. If you remove NV from the picture all your complaints apply to all of the recent elder scroll games and fallout 3.

Dialogue has never had a great range. When you add full voice you are limiting it even more. I like voice work but I feel it limits the game. The spent years recording it. From what I understand they even brought the voice actors on bored early compared to most projects. Lots of people want fully voiced games but there are downsides to that. Personally I think they should have focused on the major stories and not voiced every thing else. I feel that would have given them more time to give us those big options with more variety.

And when has your choice ever really mattered in these games? You rarely get more than several endings. I haven't gotten to end of the major stories yet so I can't say what happens. But I assume since you can join with several different factions the end will depend partially on that and choices you make in the main story line. Just like all their other ES\FO games.

Side quest are exactly the same as the previous games. You have some one and done and you have repeatable radiant quest.

Skills are different but I don't agree that they don't matter. You can still focus on improving your use of weapons, now it is just a perk instead of putting 5 points into a skill.

Just my opinion of course. :)

Oh and someone asked about memory. I had 8 gigs and would start to have warning messages and eventually the program would crash after about 4 hours. Bumped the system to 16 and haven't had an issue since.
 
Things that have taken a huge downgrade:
  • The characters are completely uninteresting. Remember the Kings from F:NV? Fotrget about zany stuff like that. Gone are the different characters scheming against one another and your actions lead to different outcomes. Everyone is basically a farmer living in an isolated shack on a hill and they all need help stopping raiders (as above).

In summary, Fallout 4 lacks the RPG elements of previous Fallout games. The game ages quickly after what seems to be a cool intro and a good start. The first couple hours of the game feels enjoyable, but when you want to dig deeper, there's nothing to dig. By that time you've already done and seen everything this game has to offer. I'd give this game a 4/10 and that's me being generous..

Yeah, the Kings, the Three Families, the Boomers...lots of cool, wacky stuff going on in FNV.

But the big difference here...
FNV = Obsidian
FO4 = Bethesda

Bethesda can't hold a candle to Obsidian's story writing ability.
 
I think the Red ones are a Strength check? They usually sound intimidating and threatening. But yeah the dialogue choices have really been dumbed down and that's pretty much my one big gripe with the game. I loved having high intelligence and out smarting people in conversations. I guess that's the downside to having fully voiced out dialogue for the main character, less choices.

This is probably one of the downsides of voicing, as you noted ... I would accept more reading (like the previous versions) with just voicing for the cut scenes and narration/story elements ... unfortunately there are a lot of folks (on both consoles and PCs) who don't want to read stuff in their games so I can see why Beth tried to change it
 
My charisma is at 3. I just carry around some light gear with bonuses to charisma along with that chem that gives you +3 and end up with 10 charisma for these tough dialogue options.

I do miss having dialogue options related to other specials though. Having 10 intelligence you'd imagine you can get some dialogue options based on that.
 
I havent really stuck with it through most Bethesda games. I was going to make this my first. Trying the approach of not wanting to be jack of all trades and master of now, and since I always seemed to be overencumbered in Bethesda games, I put a lot into strength in the beggining. I'm like 7 or 8 there and my character is level 5. I've looked into some builds online I'm starting to worry I need to start over.

I've tried to be a bit melee centric like strength characters would be, even though it's not really my cup of tea (shooter fan), but like some of have said in the thread, it seems too slow to be effective. Hope I can "recover" so to speak? My friend says there is no cap, so does that mean I can farm up and maybe get my other stats up to par? I haven't done much on the skill tree. So hopefully no screw ups there. What say you guys?
 
Hope I can "recover" so to speak? My friend says there is no cap, so does that mean I can farm up and maybe get my other stats up to par? I haven't done much on the skill tree. So hopefully no screw ups there. What say you guys?

Yep, you can use your perk points to level up your SPECIAL stats. So your starting setup is really more of a "What I want to be good at right away" and doesn't really define what your character is going to be like in the long run.
 
Most of the thing you listed, imo, have been issues with all their games. New Vegas had more options yes but it was done by a different company. We might wish they had moved more in that directions but I didn't really expect to them to improve that drastically. If you remove NV from the picture all your complaints apply to all of the recent elder scroll games and fallout 3.

Agreed.

I'd love to have a sequel to New Vegas with all that statement entails.
 
Yeah - I found out too - didn't have any power armor on at the time - but luckily there happened to be a fat man launcher in the immediate area - so that was pretty lucky too ; ).


The luck bobble head has some nasty beasties guarding it... also not sure if this is a bug but my power armor allows me to breathe under water until just before the island. I walked the bottom... I fought the queen had to resort to using fat man to win only to die to hatchlings a second later...
 
I havent really stuck with it through most Bethesda games. I was going to make this my first. Trying the approach of not wanting to be jack of all trades and master of now, and since I always seemed to be overencumbered in Bethesda games, I put a lot into strength in the beggining. I'm like 7 or 8 there and my character is level 5. I've looked into some builds online I'm starting to worry I need to start over.

I've tried to be a bit melee centric like strength characters would be, even though it's not really my cup of tea (shooter fan), but like some of have said in the thread, it seems too slow to be effective. Hope I can "recover" so to speak? My friend says there is no cap, so does that mean I can farm up and maybe get my other stats up to par? I haven't done much on the skill tree. So hopefully no screw ups there. What say you guys?

At level 5 you aren't too far in so starting over is certainly an option or you can add points over time ... your choice of SPECIAL in this game has more to do with the play style you plan to pursue:

High strength is for the hoarder/melee specialist
High perception for the VATs/crafter
High endurance for tanking/damage resistance
high charisma for city trade routes and dialog and use of companions and buying/selling
high intelligence for power leveling and crafting
high agility for VATS and stealth
high luck for scavengers and VATS

If you plan to use VATS a lot then you want more in P and A since that affects your chances of success and your AP ... if you don't want to use VATS a lot then you can concentrate on other stats ... it does pay to look through the perks and decide which you want to grab before you pick your stats ... note that you get the I AM SPECIAL book right after you leave the vault so that gives you a free SPECIAL point and you can grab the Perception Bobblehead very quickly after leaving the vault so that also gives you some flexibility of choices
 
Agreed.

I'd love to have a sequel to New Vegas with all that statement entails.

Blah. I couldn't being myself to finish that game. Sure there was personality in the groups... But bland dead desert gets boring after the first hour. Also the MQ endings sucked.
 
Agreed.

I'd love to have a sequel to New Vegas with all that statement entails.

Same here. A "new" New Vegas with the enhancements that FO4 has would likely be amazing.

This is probably one of the downsides of voicing, as you noted ... I would accept more reading (like the previous versions) with just voicing for the cut scenes and narration/story elements ... unfortunately there are a lot of folks (on both consoles and PCs) who don't want to read stuff in their games so I can see why Beth tried to change it

I think that's it. I'm not very far in in terms of the main questline, but IMO there's already been some really great dialogue with Codsworth, so I don't think it's just a lack of ability or a lack of caring on the part of Bethesda. I'm blaming the lack of meaningful dialogue choices on the console type crowd and also wanting to VO every single thing. If you look at FO2 dialogue choices and how much text there was there's just no way they're doing that for Joe Schmo playing it on his xbone.

There are no more Intelligence, Science, Explosives, Perception, etc, speech checks. But some people still think that it's a step forward.

I don't think THAT is a step forward. And I'm surprised there are no intelligence checks at all, I figured I just hadn't run into any yet. I do think the way perks and SPECIAL works now is a step forward (which in no way precludes other SPECIAL checks or skill (i.e. perk) checks).

High strength is for the hoarder

Bumping carry weight is the one console cheat that I'd condone anyone using. I hate melee so I have no use for STR other than that, and wanting (needing, really) to clean every location out of crafting materials is just a total waste of time if you have to make 3 or 4 trips back and forth.
 
I havent really stuck with it through most Bethesda games. I was going to make this my first. Trying the approach of not wanting to be jack of all trades and master of now, and since I always seemed to be overencumbered in Bethesda games, I put a lot into strength in the beggining. I'm like 7 or 8 there and my character is level 5. I've looked into some builds online I'm starting to worry I need to start over.

I've tried to be a bit melee centric like strength characters would be, even though it's not really my cup of tea (shooter fan), but like some of have said in the thread, it seems too slow to be effective. Hope I can "recover" so to speak? My friend says there is no cap, so does that mean I can farm up and maybe get my other stats up to par? I haven't done much on the skill tree. So hopefully no screw ups there. What say you guys?

You could recover, just take a few levels. I personally restarted after getting to level 13 and having my son explain that I was using the perk trees wrong, (not actually trees or lines). I felt like a dumb ass so I restarted. So now my character is much better with the lock pick skill, scrapper, mysterious, etc...
 
I have around 10 bases and one of them gets attacked every hour or so. I get a quest to defend it, and also Radio Freedom warns me.
When I show up, there's usually a group of maybe a dozen enemies: Raiders, or Super Mutants, or Synths, etc. Then we gun them all down and the quest completes.

Sometimes after it's over, all of my turrets, food sources, and water sources are destroyed... Even if I successfully defended the base. I think the longer you take to show up, the more stuff gets destroyed. If you never show up, everything gets destroyed. It's a HUGE hassle.

This is with 30 food + 30 water + and about 80-100 defense per base. The attacks are random.
My population is 22 per base (22 Charisma). So I need to lower my food and water to 22 each and it would help a lot.

Red Rocket Tower... Still gotta power it.

I haven't had nearly that number of attacks. I've had 5 or 6 settlements for the last 8-10 hours of gameplay and only had three attacks.

But I think there's some bugginess and/or just stupid/shitty design. One of the attacks I either never got a notification or it happened during combat and I didn't see it, and it wiped out the Castle. So I reloaded an older savegame (checked and made sure the place hadn't been attacked yet, and it hadn't), left the Brewery I was in and fast traveled to the castle. Get there and it's wiped out. Never got a notification.

Reload a 45 minute old savegame, from before I even went into the brewery. Go straight back to the castle. Everything is fine. Spend the next 48 game hours there, crafting and sleeping. No attack. I leave, place gets attacked (again no notice).

But this time when I went back there was just a bunch of stuff damaged (but not everything, as it was before my old reload) and only one villager was killed.

The only good thing to come out of it, was it seems like the villagers repaired the generator running the water purifier themselves. I didn't have enough materials to do it, so I left to go find them, and when I came back the generator was already fixed. Not sure if this is an intentional feature, or possibly part of the attacked/not attacked/no notification bug that I experienced.

Luckily it hasn't happened since. My settlements are getting pretty large (all 12-15 people or so). If I continue to have problems I'll probably just ignore all of them except for my main one and wait for a patch/mod.
 
Yeah, the Kings, the Three Families, the Boomers...lots of cool, wacky stuff going on in FNV.

But the big difference here...
FNV = Obsidian
FO4 = Bethesda

Bethesda can't hold a candle to Obsidian's story writing ability.
I agree. After New Vegas I was always of the opinion that Bethesda can stick to TES and bring Obsidian under their wing to solely develop the Fallout series going forward. Maybe then we could get a new game every 2-3 years with that focus instead of every 5...
 
Bumping carry weight is the one console cheat that I'd condone anyone using. I hate melee so I have no use for STR other than that, and wanting (needing, really) to clean every location out of crafting materials is just a total waste of time if you have to make 3 or 4 trips back and forth.

After clearing out an area, I'll go back to sanctuary, drop off my gear in a box and put on some very light scavenger gear to go hoard.
 
If you need more adhesive, you can craft Vegetable Starch at a cooking station using only renewable materials (vegetables from your farm and water from your purifiers).

That is a tremendous help, thank you! Wow, can't believe how easy that is and it solves my biggest resource problem.
 
Well I'm really liking it. I'm not dissapointed with any of the things you guys mentioned, however a few more speech options would be nice. Although I haven't played NV. I'll go back and play through that one after 4. Is it a whole new game aside from 3? I thought NV was just a small expansion with another area and new weapons?
 
Well I'm really liking it. I'm not dissapointed with any of the things you guys mentioned, however a few more speech options would be nice. Although I haven't played NV. I'll go back and play through that one after 4. Is it a whole new game aside from 3? I thought NV was just a small expansion with another area and new weapons?

No, it's an entirely different game. And a considerably better one than 3 imo.
 
After clearing out an area, I'll go back to sanctuary, drop off my gear in a box and put on some very light scavenger gear to go hoard.

Yeah, I plan to do a set of Leather armor with every piece having the Deep Pocketed mod to be my set of scavenging gear.

It would be nice if the game let you group up a set of armor pieces into a "set" that would show up in your inventory as a single item. Being able to swap from one "set" to another instead of having to switch up a pile of pieces would be super convenient.
 
Yeah, I plan to do a set of Leather armor with every piece having the Deep Pocketed mod to be my set of scavenging gear.

It would be nice if the game let you group up a set of armor pieces into a "set" that would show up in your inventory as a single item. Being able to swap from one "set" to another instead of having to switch up a pile of pieces would be super convenient.

What level of the armor perk do you need to do that? I've been doing a lot of weapons crafting but haven't touched armor yet even though I have the level 1 perk.

I've just been running around in ridiculous looking mismatched armor the whole time, the Grognak the Barbarian costume mostly lol.


And yes the grouping of armor pieces into a set is a must! Hopefully we can get that in a patch or a mod.
 
1 str = 10 lbs carry. Kind of a waste IMO unless you are going to melee. Lone wolf is better, @3 CHR+2 you get 100 lbs carry, and CHR is probably a more useful stat. Armor sets... sound good but are damn heavy. I just carry the most generically useful legendary pieces I find. For the dialog wheel, yeah, the whole {information, asshole, smart ass, agree} seems a little pointless. Like why did they bother?
 
I have around 10 bases and one of them gets attacked every hour or so. I get a quest to defend it, and also Radio Freedom warns me.
When I show up, there's usually a group of maybe a dozen enemies: Raiders, or Super Mutants, or Synths, etc. Then we gun them all down and the quest completes.

Sometimes after it's over, all of my turrets, food sources, and water sources are destroyed... Even if I successfully defended the base. I think the longer you take to show up, the more stuff gets destroyed. If you never show up, everything gets destroyed. It's a HUGE hassle.

This is with 30 food + 30 water + and about 80-100 defense per base. The attacks are random.
My population is 22 per base (22 Charisma). So I need to lower my food and water to 22 each and it would help a lot.

Red Rocket Tower... Still gotta power it.

F2dBXVb.png

It was all built using the Metal Prefab section. They stack with snapping very easily. I used the stairs from the Wood Floors category.

Top floor:

Ire17IR.png

I put a wind turbine in the middle of the tower.
Wires are routed along the side. Lights don't need to be connected to a power source, they just need to be near one.

mBpmYrL.png

hahaha! awesome! :):):)
 
If you're not liking the dialog system, try this mod:
http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/619/?

It adds back a menu like in FO3 and NV. The menu entries come from the subtitle text displayed when your character speaks. It works fine in English, see the comments for install instructions.

This mod also adds craftable ammo:
http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/1018/?

I'm not sure how balanced it is with regard to resources, but it seems like something that should have been in the game from the start.
 
Well I'm really liking it. I'm not dissapointed with any of the things you guys mentioned, however a few more speech options would be nice. Although I haven't played NV. I'll go back and play through that one after 4. Is it a whole new game aside from 3? I thought NV was just a small expansion with another area and new weapons?

Just be ready for a game where there are no real choices besides being a good guy. There are no "nuke megaton or not" moments. New Vegas was the best of the three games IMO.

FO3/NV are substantially better RPGs than FO4. If you are looking for more of a FPS on the rail Adventure game then you'll like FO4 more.
 
There are no "nuke megaton or not" moments.

I wouldn't be so sure....

FO3/NV are substantially better RPGs than FO4. If you are looking for more of a FPS on the rail Adventure game then you'll like FO4 more.

They all have their pros and cons. FO4 is a welcome addition, it just took way too damn long to get here.
 
Blah. I couldn't being myself to finish that game. Sure there was personality in the groups... But bland dead desert gets boring after the first hour. Also the MQ endings sucked.

I agree on those points. I was talking about the substance like the karma system and the factions.



Same here. A "new" New Vegas with the enhancements that FO4 has would likely be amazing.

^^ This.

Don't get me wrong. There's a lot to Fallout 4 I like and I'm happy with... I just think New Vegas brought some things to the table that I wish Bethesda had shamelessly adopted and brought up and forward into this game.
 
how do you upgarde the damage to your gun?

/noob


with that said, this is my first FO4 and i love it. haven't been into a SP game in years. few bugs but the game runs great so for me so far. 10 hours in level 12 i think?

there are several things i'm not doing right i'm sure but it's been fun. quicksave is a blessing. i do need to learn about apparel/armor. i've been running around for a few days now in underwear and chest armor only. fail
 
well, my take on the game for all to read: so far i spent 20~30 min on sanctuary, i build them beds, then they wanted food, i throwed some crops on the ground, then they wanted water, i put two of those pipe things on the ground, then they wanted defense like turrets and stuff i guess, thats when i got annoyed and tried to kill them.. :D a lot later i started to toy with the sanctuary options and ended up cleaning some of the garbage, and thats it, i'll probably finish the game without getting back to it, or left this option for the second run in the game.

now, i think i got lucky, game was kinda stuck with with just a few sidequests to do after diamond city, i didnt talk with the detective and went to the brotherhood, did two of each of those fetch/kill missions sidequests for that girl and that dude and went to the second brotherhood mission, thats when i went to the sidequest galore that im doing for days, it started by reading random notes i found ond nearby corpses and computers, it pointed me to other places with even more sidequests, sidequest galore, making me explore several locations with a purpose, finding even more sidequests and they all were trully fallout quests, realy smart and interesting and i've enjoying the game like mad.

have i had went with the quests from diamond city the game would be probably finished by now and i would be here saying that fallout 4 sucks, but i think i just got lucky :D this is trully a fallout game, no way like the braindead shortbus scrolls skyrim.

little spoiler: dude! you know the guy that tries to sell you a place in the vault at the beginning of the game? dude lol i found him! he instantly recognized me and he was all like wtf?? then i explained to him that i was frozen and stuff and he like "gee bro i had to travel to the future the hard way" it was hilarious! he didnt got into the vault and turned into a ghoul, was living a miserable life as a ghoul since the war :D

currently i think im halfway through the game, and its getting more and more interesting as i play. hours? well this is week two of playing for me :D, i'll be sad when it finishes.

:D:D:D
 
Just be ready for a game where there are no real choices besides being a good guy. There are no "nuke megaton or not" moments. New Vegas was the best of the three games IMO.

FO3/NV are substantially better RPGs than FO4. If you are looking for more of a FPS on the rail Adventure game then you'll like FO4 more.

Were there any real divergent pieces in FO3?

New Vegas as far as divergence and freedom was clearly the best.

This game overall is playing more like FO3, I would argue so far this is better than FO3 overall. The dialog is bad(none of the games were really that great), but I think what has been added makes it better than FO3.

I would say its wrong to say its a FPS rail adventure game just because they fixed the shooting mechanics. Which makes the game much more enjoyable to me.
 
ma, get a level or two in rifleman, beef up a crummy piperifle (or find a really nice one) and murder everything with your pretty much endless supply of .38. it is everywhere and I never seem to end up with less than 900 rounds and any given time. Freaking took out Swan with it...I guess the AI doesn't help but.
 
Almost finished 2nd play through with different factions. Looks like this one is gonna be "kill them all and let god sort them out" one.

The settlement are the most annoying part of them game. I'd assume if their defense is up, they won't annoy me with 'oh, my buddy got kidnapped, ghouls/raiders/mutants are harassing us", but nope. Each settlement gets 4 quests like that it is a huge grind to keep them happy.
But with 100+ defense you can simply ignore the requests to assist with settlement attacks - the enemies just get ground up to pieces by turrets.
 
How in the hell are people almost finishing second playthroughs already?
 
Almost finished 2nd play through with different factions. Looks like this one is gonna be "kill them all and let god sort them out" one.

The settlement are the most annoying part of them game. I'd assume if their defense is up, they won't annoy me with 'oh, my buddy got kidnapped, ghouls/raiders/mutants are harassing us", but nope. Each settlement gets 4 quests like that it is a huge grind to keep them happy.
But with 100+ defense you can simply ignore the requests to assist with settlement attacks - the enemies just get ground up to pieces by turrets.

???almost done with your second playthrough already?
 
ma, get a level or two in rifleman, beef up a crummy piperifle (or find a really nice one) and murder everything with your pretty much endless supply of .38. it is everywhere and I never seem to end up with less than 900 rounds and any given time. Freaking took out Swan with it...I guess the AI doesn't help but.

This is why I think ammo crafting is pretty pointless in this game so far. I have over 1000 in .45 and energy cell and roughly 600 in 10mm and .38. I buy every .50 I come across though, that's gonna be my main round once I get enough of em.
 
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