Every 24" LCD Negative?

[10e]

No I think he meant the XbitLabs review, which was inconsistent.

They called the LG the loser for one true issue (brightness control) but excused far worse issues with competitors.

Of course that is to be expected, as the monitors they rated came in different sizes, panel types, etc... and consistency is difficult.

Regards,

10e

Which list? What I posted? Those are 4 "MUSTs" for a universal monitor.
Sorry, I've never talked about Samsung 245BW. 245BW is a cr@ppy TN in general, considered suitable for fast gaming AFAIK.
It's below LG 245 - no doubts.

 

[vick1000]

There's a simple way to notice the VA shift, take a look at this image...



...move your head to one side of your screen and watch the black squares turn grey, move your head back to center, and move the image to the side...it does the same. If you don't have this shift, tilt your monitor back away from you so that you view it from below, keep tilting it until you are viewing it from about a 20 degree angle. Are you looking at a negative? If so, you have a TN.

If you have neither of these issues, you have an IPS panel or some other more obvious technology like CRT or Plasma (or Sharp Aquos LCD with ASV).

The VA gamma shift is indeed most disturbing on larger displays, since the further you move the outer edges of the display from your center of view, the more detail is revealed in the dark color areas. In movies, this drove me nuts. In games or general usage, it was bearable or not noticed.

The TN gamma shift is most noticeable in FPS games, where you can look up and down and watch what was just brightly displayed on the bottom of your screen, turn black as night near the top and visa-versa.

In both cases, it feels like a shadow looming on your screen, for VA it's a circular shape in front of your face, for TN a viel hanging from the top of your screen.

 

[10e]

I agree with you.

Anything above 50ms and I really start to notice instantly, without hesitation and I'm no hardcore FPS gamer.

Input lag of this amount is inexcusable on a upper-mid range 24" monitor.

10e

Lol did you miss my post on page 12, in response to Nav's test on page 11?
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032124531&postcount=213
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032124915&postcount=225
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1264046&page=11


61ms is just under 66ms (which would account to nearly 4 frames of input lag). Maybe it was combination of worst-case + response time (b/c he only has one timer). Even that, the next step would be 3 frames. Still unacceptable.

And I say that from experience, b/c I bet the 2405 is close to that. 45-55ms was observed back when I was first digging around about input lag, and it's pretty spot on - basically 3 frames.

 

[10e]

My BenQ does a little of this, but I realize I sit too far from my monitor to see it normally.

The Sharp is a VA type panel and has other more pressing issues generally, including viewing angle problems... I've seen them on various recent model Sharps.

But you are right. These shift effects get worse on bigger screens.

Regards,

10e

There's a simple way to notice the VA shift, take a look at this image...

...move your head to one side of your screen and watch the black squares turn grey, move your head back to center, and move the image to the side...it does the same. If you don't have this shift, tilt your monitor back away from you so that you view it from below, keep tilting it until you are viewing it from about a 20 degree angle. Are you looking at a negative? If so, you have a TN.

If you have neither of these issues, you have an IPS panel or some other more obvious technology like CRT or Plasma (or Sharp Aquos LCD with ASV).

The VA gamma shift is indeed most disturbing on larger displays, since the further you move the outer edges of the display from your center of view, the more detail is revealed in the dark color areas. In movies, this drove me nuts. In games or general usage, it was bearable or not noticed.

The TN gamma shift is most noticeable in FPS games, where you can look up and down and watch what was just brightly displayed on the bottom of your screen, turn black as night near the top and visa-versa.

In both cases, it feels like a shadow looming on your screen, for VA it's a circular shape in front of your face, for TN a viel hanging from the top of your screen.

 

[albovin]

Lol did you miss my post on page 12, in response to Nav's test on page 11?
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032124531&postcount=213
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032124915&postcount=225
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1264046&page=11

You missed what I am talking about.
What do your links mean? Unput lag measured. I know. I've measured it myself.
Again, this is what I am saying about input lag on the Dell 2408:
I've looked through 10 last pages (28-18) of 2408 thread. I was looking for users experience and complaints specificly about practical gaming. No-one of real users (page 28-18) says that input lag prevents anybody from playing games. Except for one semi-complaint I mentioned above.
I have not found any reports (28-18) that somebody returned the monitor for this reason. Maybe you can find anything in the rest of the thread?

 

[albovin]

people don't notice because that's probably a worst case scenario for color shifting with a poor quality *VA panel. observe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV_e8mGu6rc

Yes, scenarios may vary.
Printed text would be the best case scenario.
Animation with bright colors is good.
But the more realistic the scene the worse the case, especially in dark tones.
The panel used was brand new Gateway 2485.
What is shown about LG245 - it's too easy, it doesn't say much about the monitor.
To test a boat we actually have to put it in the water. On the ground all boats float equally.

 

[Dogmapog]

Lol the 2408's input lag is just as bad as the 2407HC (2-3frames), making it essentially useless for all but the most boring tasks (e.g. Office work). I don't think anyone on this forum should even either of those panels if you want to have a possibility of gaming.t?

For the record, I have a 8 bit Acer, and as a SPlayer, I've never seen a hint of ghosting, nor can I honestly say there's any input lag subjectively speaking.....I see no reason why the 2408 wouldn't be as good.
There are people reading these threads getting poor advice from people who either don't own the panels they're such experts on, or they're image pro's/ pro gamers, who may or may not have legitimate complaints regarding current LCD tech.

I've said before and will say again....if we could get the specs from HDTV's into PC screens we'd be laughing, but until that time, I'm living it up on my Acer.

 

[Mav451]

For the record, I have a 8 bit Acer, and as a SPlayer, I've never seen a hint of ghosting, nor can I honestly say there's any input lag subjectively speaking.....I see no reason why the 2408 wouldn't be as good.
There are people reading these threads getting poor advice from people who either don't own the panels they're such experts on, or they're image pro's/ pro gamers, who may or may not have legitimate complaints regarding current LCD tech.

I've said before and will say again....if we could get the specs from HDTV's into PC screens we'd be laughing, but until that time, I'm living it up on my Acer.

Does the 8-bit Acer have the same panel as the 2408? I was gonna check on TFTCentral but I'm getting B/W exceeded message lol. [H] users bringing down that site now or what?

What is an SPlayer?

And the reason I feel I can talk on the Dell panels in general is that I have not seen any evidence of them improving response times on their *VA panels. The 2407 was slightly faster than the 2405, but then the HC raised input lag back to unacceptable levels. And while one sample size for the 2408 may not be enough for some of you to believe, it just shows that Dell has not made input lag the slightest priority in improving their products.

Dell has always shined in connectivity - there's no question about that, but that's their only solid strength at this point.

Hah found more data (this time through a Google search):
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032129978&postcount=55

Out of his 15 results, it comes to an average of 46ms...which is basically 3 frames. Seeing the highs hitting the 60ms range is confirming the numbers Nav saw.

 

[Dogmapog]

Does the 8-bit Acer have the same panel as the 2408? I was gonna check on TFTCentral but I'm getting B/W exceeded message lol. [H] users bringing down that site now or what?

What is an SPlayer?.

It's VA variant of some form, excellent vertical viewing angles, but not as good horizontals.
The reason I made my post was that albovin mentioned that he couldn't find any meaningful complaints in the 2408 thread, IOW, somethings up somewhere, and I suspect it's that MP pro gamers are the "problem".

Splayer=single player.

 

[10e]

I think the Acer has the same panel as the 2407. Yes it does.

That link you mentioned was relative to another monitor, in which (later in the thread) he says it was more than 10 ms in lag over his TV. I know because up until that point I was in love with the 2408, but not any more.

Regardless, for me anything more than 50ms is too high.. I have a TV that fulfills Albovin's universal monitor requirements better than any monitor does (S-IPS, 3 x HDMI, 1:1 pixel mapping, CRT like quality, good brightness/backlight controls, 1080p24), but the input lag of 60 to 80 ms made it unusable for a PC gaming TV.

Even aiming in Crysis using a turret at lower resolution (at 1:1) was dead slow and it wasn't my computer/vid card causing this. No way I could play any MP games that required fast reaction. I'd always be behind.

10e

Does the 8-bit Acer have the same panel as the 2408? I was gonna check on TFTCentral but I'm getting B/W exceeded message lol. [H] users bringing down that site now or what?



Hah found more data (this time through a Google search):
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032129978&postcount=55

Out of his 15 results, it comes to an average of 46ms...which is basically 3 frames. Seeing the highs hitting the 60ms range is confirming the numbers Nav saw.

 

[albovin]

I have a TV that fulfills Albovin's universal monitor requirements better than any monitor does (S-IPS, 3 x HDMI, 1:1 pixel mapping, CRT like quality, good brightness/backlight controls, 1080p24),
10e

Forgive my critcism but TV may be far from universal monitor requirements.
Once I tested and calibrated my TV (not IPS though) to see how close it is to a universal monitor.

#1. Absence of colorhift and presence of IPS on TV not necessarily means "photo quality". Color accuracy deviation may simply disqualify TV as a photo quality monitor at all (even without dot pitch question).
#2. OK
#3. No ergonomics at all, never autobrightness, etc.
#4. OK
It's hard to imagine a TV as an equal substitute for a universal monitor.

 

[gtg465x]

Which list? What I posted? Those are 4 "MUSTs" for a universal monitor.
Sorry, I've never talked about Samsung 245BW. 245BW is a cr@ppy TN in general, considered suitable for fast gaming AFAIK.
It's below LG 245 - no doubts.

No, not the list you posted. The list on the Anandtech forums that you linked to.

 

[10e]

I don't take it as criticism

Believe me I was floored that this TV (after calibration) gave me as consistent colors as my Dell 2005FPW (calibrated and in sRGB mode), good, even brightness, absolutely no clouding, decent black levels and very good black details. The only "relative" criticism is that it has "only" 72% gamut.

I don't use auto-brightness on TV because I hate it.

The VGA works great, the component overscans only 2% according to the overscan image on www.tigerdave.com.

I'm not sure if it is the "equal" of a calibrated LCD2490/2690Wuxi, but compared to all other monitors I've seen, it definitely holds it's own.

Only issue, unfortunately which ruins its gaming capabilities is the input lag. Apparently later builds came with a "just scan" mode that did not perform any on-the-fly image processing, reducing the input lag fairly well.

Also the neckstrain was starting to get to me

It may not be 100% a universal monitor, but it is fairly close. And I'm not someone who defends things that I buy in general, so I try to be honest. If something is not good to me, then I'm the idiot who bought it, and it's my mistake.


Regards,

10e

Forgive my critcism but TV may be far from universal monitor requirements.
Once I tested and calibrated my TV (not IPS though) to see how close it is to a universal monitor.

#1. Absence of colorhift and presence of IPS on TV not necessarily means "photo quality". Color accuracy deviation may simply disqualify TV as a photo quality monitor at all (even without dot pitch question).
#2. OK
#3. No ergonomics at all, never autobrightness, etc.
#4. OK
It's hard to imagine a TV as an equal substitute for a universal monitor.

 

[cheapherk]

My Acer 24" rocks. I couldn't be happier with it. Very bright. Excellent for gamers.

 

[v1p3r]

Unfortunately the NEC 2490 is completely unavailable in the UK - am I right in thinking that the second best is a recent BenQ FP241W when it comes to FPS gaming and HD consoles?

No TN panels please

 

[10e]

The BenQ is a good choice.

For a multifunctional monitor it does many things well. Great for consoles, PC, cable boxes, etc....

Regards,

10e

Unfortunately the NEC 2490 is completely unavailable in the UK - am I right in thinking that the second best is a recent BenQ FP241W when it comes to FPS gaming and HD consoles?

No TN panels please

 

[orunner]

Talking about color quality, can someone compare Benq FP241w and Dell 2408?

 

[albovin]

Talking about color quality, can someone compare Benq FP241w and Dell 2408?

1. Both have *VA-type panels, so photo quality is conditional on both due to colorshift.
2. 2408 has wide color gamut - potentially it's able to reproduce deeper colors on appropriate (wide gamut) images.
Standard gamut images will appear with oversaturated colors on 2408.
So you might have to spend more time setting the Dell 2408 than you would with the BenQ 241. Even after that some colors in some situations may look more vivid than optimal.
3. Black is deeper and contrast ratio is definitely better on the Dell 2408.

 

[orunner]

Thx for your reply! Now I am almost clear.

1. Both have *VA-type panels, so photo quality is conditional on both due to colorshift.
2. 2408 has wide color gamut - potentially it's able to reproduce deeper colors on appropriate (wide gamut) images.
Standard gamut images will appear with oversaturated colors on 2408.
So you might have to spend more time setting the Dell 2408 than you would with the BenQ 241. Even after that some colors in some situations may look more vivid than optimal.

Can this be solved by customizing color setting on 2408?

or using the magic gadget Spyder?

3. Black is deeper and contrast ratio is definitely better on the Dell 2408.

 

[10e]

A spyder3 is apparently a decent choice, or something from Monaco or Getrag, from what I've read.

It will definitely help the over-saturation typical in the Samsung based PVA HC/High gamut panels, but it may not completely remove the oversaturation.

No device can help the gamma shift issue, but a colorimeter will help with some of the dark details outside of the horizontal gamma shift. For example, my el-cheapo Spyder2 has pulled back some of the green shift on the BenQ and made it closer to real life, but not all.

Neither of these is a professional level photo editing monitor, but for light tasks (ie. if you don't do it for a living) they are decent choices.

Regards,

10e

 

[ben chi(f4)]

Well,

There are some good monitors out there, it just depends on your use.

Fast gamer panel:

The BenQ G2400W is a good monitor. I don't care about response time, but input lag is non-existent, and even with magnification, I challenge anyone here to find banding or FRC blinking/pixel squirm on this monitor. Out-of-the-box color calibration is excellent for a TN panel. Not too bright, not too dark. Most balanced TN panel I've seen without resorting to BS marketing like dynamic contrast and G2G deflated response times.

If you can find it the LG L245/6WP is a good all-arounder. Nice panel, very functional VGA, and good component with minimal overscan and good de-interlacing.

The BenQ FP241W built June 2007 or later is still the benchmark multi-functional monitor, with digital and analog connections. Full aspect ratio handling and overscan on/off make it customizable for almost anything. OSD is slow. I have the VW and I'm quite happy with it except the ugly and poorly designed stand.

Samsung 245T is nice, but a bit high on the input lag. Gorgeous panel. Not sure how it handles HD content over video type connectors, as I've heard it can have some issues with 16:9 or 4:3 content.

Westinghouse L2410NM (m-va) is also a bit laggy (50ms) but handles HD content phenomenally, and is cheap right now. De-interlaces 1080i better than most TVs and scales up resolutions to 1080 extremely well. Just get an extended warranty.

Gateway FHD2400 looks good, but just turn brightness down to 0 as soon as you take it out of the box or the backlight bleed will get progressively worse.

NEC LCD2490Wuxi. Best of the bunch if you are willing to spend the money. At least you know the minimum you will have it is 4 years due to the extended warranty. Probably the best pro-sumer level display out there. Two DVI and one VGA should enable most uses. There is nothing glaringly wrong with this display except it costs.

Dell 2407WFP-HC or 2408. I'd actually prefer the 2407, but the 2408 will mature into a better screen very soon, with following revisions.


There is no perfect monitor, but there are some which fulfill their niche quite nicely. You just have to research the he11 out of them and figure out what it is you want.

Hope that helps,

10e

Thank you.
I'll let you know what I purchase. I'm leaning over to the BenQ G2400W.

 

[10e]

I hope you enjoy whatever you purchase.

I recently re-bought the G2400W. I returned my first to Tiger Direct due to a dead pixel and some wake up issues (that may be more attributed to the video card) and while they were very nice about it, they had no other G2400W's in stock.

I went there earlier this week and picked up another one, and it has no defects. I'm very happy with it. I set the video card to cloning and put the G2400W next to the FP241VW and I was happier with the G2400W. The FP241VW showed some "grayness" to the display whereas the G2400W displayed the colors very nicely.

I've also easily found a comfortable viewing angle with it, where I can slouch and not have the top darker than the bottom, and minimize any gamma shift.

To be honest I'm questioning the purchase of the FP241VW now that I've re-acquainted my self with the G2400W.

Regards and good luck,

10e

 

[Snowdog]

.

I've also easily found a comfortable viewing angle with it, where I can slouch and not have the top darker than the bottom, and minimize any gamma shift.

To be honest I'm questioning the purchase of the FP241VW now that I've re-acquainted my self with the G2400W.

10e

I have a much easier time accomodating the vertical shift in TN panels, than the horizontal shift in VA panels. Once seated I tend to move a lot more side to side than up and down. With a height and tilt adjustable panel, I don't need to slouch to get a farily consistent up/down gamma.

That said, I plan on an IPS screen next and not have gamma shift in either direction.