EVE Spectrum: 27" 1440 144/240 Hz IPS or 4K 144 Hz IPS

kasakka

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
2,284
https://evedevices.com/pages/full-specs

Preorder prices at 399/499/599 USD/Euro are pretty good, 100 USD/Euro refundable deposit. Release in Q3/Q4. Prices are supposed to go up the closer these get to release and after release they are going to be sold at a higher price via other retailers.

Now personally these are too small for what I want nowadays but the most exciting feature about these is the open source firmware. That could possibly allow for better overdrive tuning, extra features etc being added by the community depending on how hard it is to program.
 

zehoo

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
407
Thought I'd gamble on the quality of the 240hz one for my multiplayer FPS needs. I guess I'll find out in Q4 if I'm flushing money down the drain or not as I may regret not sticking with TN.

The 4K is also tempting me, but I'm getting a 48" OLED later in the year for all my other gaming needs.
 

kasakka

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
2,284
More info here: https://eve.community/t/feature-update-early-october/18904

Seems that they have dropped 8 zone local dimming which makes the HDR600 spec a bag of rubbish. Not that I expected much but now it's just brighter HDR400!

PbP modes seem like a waste at 27" size regardless of resolution but maybe someone finds a use for them. Better to have than not and I feel at this point every display should have them, gaming or not.
 

Frameless

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
212
What about display calibration? Something tells me this will have terrible colors, gamma, etc out of the box, unless they get them factory calibrated?
 

Tup3x

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 8, 2011
Messages
1,891
What about display calibration? Something tells me this will have terrible colors, gamma, etc out of the box, unless they get them factory calibrated?
Apparently it has programmable lut which is really nice. Factory calibration is nice but those are not that accurate usually. Often quite enough but just rather quick and simple calibration to achieve pretty good white balance.
 

AIM9x

Weaksauce
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
102
While I would love to jump in on that 240hz 1440p panel, I have to take a pause to think about what kind of warranty services are available from this small company.
 

kirkle8

n00b
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
8
Just throwing my $.02 into the mix. Eve has a very troubled history as a company and earlier this year they went through bankruptcy and corporate restructuring. I believe that Eve is now wholly owned by a new (November 2019) "Eve Distribution" company based out of China that is completely unrelated to the previous Finnish Eve. It will be interesting to see how the new Eve handles the whole "pre-order to fund production" thing, because I am one of the many people who pre-ordered an Eve V back in December 2017 and have not received my device or a promised refund nearly 30 months later.

I would stay far away from giving this company/brand any money until these monitors exist outside of a spec-sheet and product renders.
 
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KingGlade

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
164
Just throwing my $.02 into the mix. Eve has a very troubled history as a company and earlier this year they went through bankruptcy and corporate restructuring. I believe that Eve is now wholly owned by a new (November 2019) "Eve Distribution" company based out of China that is completely unrelated to the previous Finnish Eve. It will be interesting to see how the new Eve handles the whole "pre-order to fund production" thing, because I am one of the many people who pre-ordered an Eve V back in December 2017 and have not received my device or a promised refund nearly 30 months later.

I would stay far away from giving this company/brand any money until these monitors exist outside of a spec-sheet and product renders.

Whoa! I thought they finally shipped out all of those pre-order's last year. I was thinking about that 4k Model, but maybe I'll wait.
 

kirkle8

n00b
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
8
Whoa! I thought they finally shipped out all of those pre-order's last year. I was thinking about that 4k Model, but maybe I'll wait.

I THINK the majority of actual device orders have been fulfilled, the problem lies in people like me who asked for their money back in July 2018 after waiting 6 months with no shipping updates, and no end in sight. I've been promised multiple times that "we're working on refunds" but I have not seen or heard of any progress and the last message I got from their support was to kick rocks because Eve Devices is not Eve-Tech (A change that took place around November 2019), and if I want my money back I need to contact a non-existent Chinese distributor (Fortress Tech Ltd which was created by Eve-Tech for HK presence). Additionally there are a lot of horror stories of people who have gotten their Eve V's physically in hand and once they've been shipped back to Eve for either returns or warranty work they just don't come back.

But like I said above, from the best of my research in the topic, this new Eve Devices is just that, a new company. Eve-Tech who initially sold the Eve V filed for corporate restructuring with 780,000 EUR in liabilities in March 2020 after they stopped paying debtors in January 2020 and is now owned by what looks like some kind of shell holding company. My biggest point I want people to be aware of is that Eve Devices is NOT Eve-Tech, they just acquired the Eve brand sometime last year and Eve is now an unknown Chinese based company and UK based clothing wholesaler, and not the Finnish startup it was a few years back. One of the biggest tells is the "About" page that used to list 12+ members of the company has been completely scrubbed of any mention of real people and still has not been updated since the December 2017 CES Eve V Explosion (you can check this with the wayback machine on the eve-tech website)

Like I said before, I would not give this unknown company operating under a shaky brand and completely new/unknown management a single dollar until they can show me they are actually capable of producing these things and they are in-stock at a retailer I actually know.

I can provide my story and links to back all of this up if anyone is interested.
 

N4CR

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
4,776
Just throwing my $.02 into the mix. Eve has a very troubled history as a company and earlier this year they went through bankruptcy and corporate restructuring. I believe that Eve is now wholly owned by a new (November 2019) "Eve Distribution" company based out of China that is completely unrelated to the previous Finnish Eve. It will be interesting to see how the new Eve handles the whole "pre-order to fund production" thing, because I am one of the many people who pre-ordered an Eve V back in December 2017 and have not received my device or a promised refund nearly 30 months later.

I would stay far away from giving this company/brand any money until these monitors exist outside of a spec-sheet and product renders.
Thanks for coming by to give a heads up.
 

kirkle8

n00b
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
8
Just updating this thread with some new information. Eve has downgraded the native refresh rates of the 1440p panel to 200Hz and the 4K panel to 120Hz. You won't find this information on the pre-order page (suspiciously) but instead buried in their userforum. Additionally they downgraded the brightness from 650cd/m² to 450cd/m²

https://eve.community/t/spectrum-specs-and-q-a-may-update/22510
 
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kirkle8

n00b
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
8
https://eve.community/t/spectrum-specs-and-q-a-may-update/22510/1

Seems to still be 1440p 48hz - 240hz and 4k 48hz - 144hz but those are the overclocked amounts (something Acer and Asus also do this with their models in the past). And the cd/m² looks similar to me? 450cd/m² typical - 750cd/m² peak.

It's now overclocked rated to the previous specs, yes. But the "cheap" Eve Spectrum has always been 1440p/165Hz overclockable and they have never been advertised as QHD/165Hz (Source - September 2019)

For the Brightness, here is the "February" update calling out 650cd/m² typical (Community, Archive) and the current Eve Spectrum "Full Specs" calling out 650cd/m² typical (Archive).

So there has now been 5 months of pre-orders, 80% of which have been these two models (Source), and now they are abruptly cutting specs for hundreds and hundreds of pre-orders while not updating the pre-order information on their website. While there is nothing inherently wrong with "overclocking support up to ***Hz" it's not being advertised that way unless you go digging through their community forums, and I'm not sure if they even sent out an email notifying customers that their pre-orders have been reduced in specs (I haven't pre-ordered one, if anyone has please reach out to me if such an email has been sent to you).

It's like I've previously stated in this thread, Eve has scammed me, I'm just trying to prevent as many others from being scammed or otherwise lied to by Eve.
 
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Epos7

Gawd
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Messages
797
I put down a deposit for the 4K/120 model.

The issues with their previous product are concerning, but I figure I can try to get a sense of how things are progressing as they near shipment and back out if I see any red flags. They have at least one review unit out in the wild, so some hands-on information will hopefully begin to trickle in soon.

Prices seem to have gone up since the OP started this thread. Deposit was $100, total price will be $669 for the 4K model w/o stand.

If it works out I'll have two 27" 4K screens at my desk (this and a Dell P2715Q) and my 65" LG OLED in the living room connected to my PC. The OLED is awesome for gaming, but mine is two years old and doesn't have 120Hz or VRR, so I'm looking forward to trying that with (hopefully) the Eve Spectrum and a 3080 later this year or early next year.
 

Chief Blur Buster

Owner of BlurBusters
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
127
In an unofficial capacity I am also helping Eve with their strobing.

In full equality, I help any manufacturer that asks for help about strobing. Big and small. Well financed or strapped startups. Rising tide lifts all boats, I say!

Be noted for ULMB-lovers, these particular panels have the "slow" KSF red phosphor and the red-tint strobe crosstalk that generates (google "red phosphor strobing" for the TL;DR) so there are limitations to strobe quality. But if you don't really care about strobing, it's a 100% complete non-issue.

60 Hz single strobe is planned to be supported, despite KSF phosphor

That said, I'm working to make sure that all refresh rates can be strobed (including 60Hz single-strobe), no refresh rate restriction on strobing! (Though I doubt anyone wants to strobe at 50Hz...) Generally, the panel supplier is great, the typical LG NanoIPS quality of pleasing wide-gamut color, as are all the great 2020-and-newer "Fast IPS" panels that revolutionized high-Hz IPS. (2018 165Hz IPS versus 2020 165Hz IPS is night and day, to the point where I no longer touch pre-2020 high-Hz IPS from any manufacturer!). Ever since 2020 started (a bad year), one of the great thing about 2020 is TN-speed IPS in the refresh rate range 165Hz-thru-360Hz, for panel manufacture dates 2020 and newer, utilizing the new IPS formulation.

4K 120Hz MAME HLSL + strobe should look quite usable as a lovely CRT emulator since 60Hz single-flash strobe is supported! Adjustable strobe length will be provided, for you LightBoost 10% lovers, ULMB/DyAc Pulse Width lovers, PureXP+ Ultra lovers. A great match to NTSC color gamut is provided during strobing too (unlike crappy LightBoost colors), which helps emulation. The red-phoshor flicker ghosting is adequately tolerable at low refresh rates, with some tweaks, much like tolerating plasma ghosting, but YMMV, in a honest expectations-tempering.

The extra refresh rate headroom is very helpful for low-Hz strobing; plus the use of a Vertical Total 4500 during single-strobe 4K 60Hz, should be provisionally possible, to provide an 8 millisecond vertical blanking interval big enough for the slow real-world LCD GtG supertanker to drive through like a stealth submarine, hidden unseen by eyes. This partially compensates for the red-tinted strobe crosstalk from the slow red phosphor. As a mitigation measure, it is also possible to use software BFI combined with hardware 120Hz strobe + global dynamic dimming (to automatically turn off backlight during the black refresh cycle during software-based black frame insertion; to maximally block the light coming from slow KSF red phosphor quicker to reduce KSF red ghosting by 50%. Creating what is probably going to be one of the better MAME emulator LCDs (4K resolution providing CRT texture effect, HDR providing nit headroom for brighter strobe, and 60Hz single strobe support, and ultralarge Vertical Total support, all combined).

I am trying to change industry aversion to 60 Hz single-strobing, as a niche feature quite useful to console/emulator users who are CRT afficanados.
 
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strayan

n00b
Joined
Nov 13, 2014
Messages
53
In an unofficial capacity I am also helping Eve with their strobing.

In full equality, I help any manufacturer that asks for help about strobing. Big and small. Well financed or strapped startups. Rising tide lifts all boats, I say!

Be noted for ULMB-lovers, these particular panels have the "slow" KSF red phosphor and the red-tint strobe crosstalk that generates (google "red phosphor strobing" for the TL;DR) so there are limitations to strobe quality. But if you don't really care about strobing, it's a 100% complete non-issue.

60 Hz single strobe is planned to be supported, despite KSF phosphor

That said, I'm working to make sure that all refresh rates can be strobed (including 60Hz single-strobe), no refresh rate restriction on strobing! (Though I doubt anyone wants to strobe at 50Hz...) Generally, the panel supplier is great, the typical LG NanoIPS quality of pleasing wide-gamut color, as are all the great 2020-and-newer "Fast IPS" panels that revolutionized high-Hz IPS. (2018 165Hz IPS versus 2020 165Hz IPS is night and day, to the point where I no longer touch pre-2020 high-Hz IPS from any manufacturer!). Ever since 2020 started (a bad year), one of the great thing about 2020 is TN-speed IPS in the refresh rate range 165Hz-thru-360Hz, for panel manufacture dates 2020 and newer, utilizing the new IPS formulation.

4K 120Hz MAME HLSL + strobe should look quite usable as a lovely CRT emulator since 60Hz single-flash strobe is supported! Adjustable strobe length will be provided, for you LightBoost 10% lovers, ULMB/DyAc Pulse Width lovers, PureXP+ Ultra lovers. A great match to NTSC color gamut is provided during strobing too (unlike crappy LightBoost colors), which helps emulation. The red-phoshor flicker ghosting is adequately tolerable at low refresh rates, with some tweaks, much like tolerating plasma ghosting, but YMMV, in a honest expectations-tempering.

The extra refresh rate headroom is very helpful for low-Hz strobing; plus the use of a Vertical Total 4500 during single-strobe 4K 60Hz, should be provisionally possible, to provide an 8 millisecond vertical blanking interval big enough for the slow real-world LCD GtG supertanker to drive through like a stealth submarine, hidden unseen by eyes. This partially compensates for the red-tinted strobe crosstalk from the slow red phosphor. As a mitigation measure, it is also possible to use software BFI combined with hardware 120Hz strobe + global dynamic dimming (to automatically turn off backlight during the black refresh cycle during software-based black frame insertion; to maximally block the light coming from slow KSF red phosphor quicker to reduce KSF red ghosting by 50%. Creating what is probably going to be one of the better MAME emulator LCDs (4K resolution providing CRT texture effect, HDR providing nit headroom for brighter strobe, and 60Hz single strobe support, and ultralarge Vertical Total support, all combined).

I am trying to change industry aversion to 60 Hz single-strobing, as a niche feature quite useful to console/emulator users who are CRT afficanados.

I use a SONY OLED PVM for retro console gaming (using HDMI modded consoles) are these new EVE monitors going to offer me anything superior to extremely low persistence and rolling scan I get with my current gear?
 
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Chief Blur Buster

Owner of BlurBusters
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
127
I use a SONY OLED PVM for retro console gaming (using HDMI modded consoles) are these new EVE monitors going to offer me anything superior to extremely low persistence and rolling scan I get with my current gear?

For my personalized recommendation to Eve (which was accepted by them), I have specified a pulse range from approximately 0.25ms MPRT to about 2ms MPRT, ignoring the faint red double-image ghost chasing behind, because of KSF phosphor. It will be less objectionable than, however, the yellow-ghost on, say a plasma TV (even the Pioneer plasma), so the KSF phosphor ghosting isn't too ugly if you can tolerage a bit of phosphory-ghost (CRT-style or plasma-style), it's a red-tinted ghost on a black background.

Remember, the Blur Busters Law specifies that for every 1ms of MPRT(100%) translates to 1 pixel of motion blur per 1000 pixels/second. The best screens I've seen (blur-wise) has less than 1/10th the motion blur of an older 7.5ms Sony PVM. I am not sure how adjustable the pulse width is on the Sony PVM, however.

Currently:
  • For most LCDs, currently you can usually only get global strobe, not rolling strobe. This is something to live with for now (until MiniLED rolling-scan FALD backlight modes).
  • You will get much less motion blur on modern strobed LCDs than an older OLED PVM, but you will get more strobe crosstalk and worse color quality
  • For best desktop OLED strobing, try the 48" LG CX OLED (4.2ms MPRT) that is now superior to the Sony OLED PVM (7.5ms MPRT)
  • For best desktop LCD strobing, try the Blur Busters Approved 240Hz ViewSonic XG270 + 120Hz PureXP + RetroArch 60Hz Software BFI (~0.5ms MPRT to ~2ms MPRT). Alternatively 180Hz PureXP + RetroArch 2:1 60Hz Software BFI (new feature)
  • For best any-LCD I've ever seen, try Oculus Quest 2 VR + Switch 72-to-60Hz + Virtual Desktop + MAME HLSL, to put a floating realistic virtual CRT in front of you in VR (0.3ms MPRT!!!!!!!!!)
But if you cherrypick strobing:
  1. Use tons of refresh rate headroom to max-CRT-qualityize your LCD strobe.
    120Hz strobe on 240Hz panel looks better than 120Hz strobe on 144Hz panel.
  2. Strobe far, far, far, far below max refresh rate
    60hz single strobe on a 240Hz capable panel is ultra-low crosstalk; it becomes faint below human visibility noisefloor
  3. Few screens use 60 Hz single strobe so most have to use combined 120Hz + hardware strobe + software BFI to black out every other strobe
    This can be poor quality on old TN LCDs, but the new 2020-era IPS LCDs have extremely high-quality 120Hz + Software BFI capability
  4. For LCD, use IPS instead of TN for 60Hz single-strobe, to avoid the color-degradation effect.
    Much, much, much, much, much better 60Hz single-strobe quality (regardless of 60Hz native direct single-strobe, or assisted by software BFI to convert 120Hz hardware strobe to 60Hz hardware strobe).
  5. If you are unlucky to have KSF phosphor artifacts, strobe at a higher Hz you can do (e.g. 120Hz or 180Hz or 240H) and use software-based black frame insertion to insert black frames on the panel itself to quickly block-out the slow red phosphorglow from the backlight. This can help rescue a monitor with a KSF phosphor for strobing with emulators.
Then you can have about 1/10th the motion blur of OLED, and can read the TestUFO Panning Map Test at 3000 pixels/second (this TestUFO motion test will not be readable on any Sony PVM - you need 0.5ms MPRT strobing or a real CRT tube. Currently these displays pass this motion blur torture test:
- BenQ displays at Strobe Pulse Width 30 or less
- NVIDIA ULMB displays at Strobe Pulse Width 30 or less
- Oculus Quest 2 VR headset running in-headset browser, or Virtual Desktop
- ViewSonic gaming displays with newer PureXP=Ultra setting
- Upcoming Eve Displays at shorter strobe pulse widths

The problem is that most manufacturers have historically refused to include 60Hz in strobe rate range. While NVIDIA stays with fixed-Hz strobe (e.g. 85Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz), other manufacturers such as BenQ and ViewSonic support strobing at all custom refresh rates above 75 Hz (75Hz through 240Hz in 0.001Hz increments). The irony is that it's a one-line source code change in the monitor firmware to allow strobe at 60 Hz, but manufacturers thinks users don't want 60 Hz single strobing. Which is a problem for emulator users and console users who ACTUALLY want the feature to emulate a nostagilistic 60 Hz CRT of zero-motion-blur nirvana.

Generally, a good strobed LCD can do less motion blur than OLED because of something called the Talbot-Plateau Theorem. You have to flash twice as bright if you flash briefer, to avoid brightness degradation. So a 300nit screen has to strobe 3,000 nits to get 1/10th persistence without brightness loss. This is a HUGE problem for OLED. This is less of a barrier with LCD (outsourced light) than OLED (tiny pixels). LEDs are now stadium-bright. Some manufacturers put overkill LEDs in some screens (like BenQ XL2546 DyAC models, stays 300 nits strobed at 1ms MPRT). Also that Sony 10,000nit prototype HDR display happens to be....guess what?....LCD. And, this is why even Oculus Rift OLED (2ms MPRT) has way more motion blur than Valve Index LCD VR / Oculus LCD VR (0.3ms MPRT).

Although OLED has incredibly fast GtG and avoids ghosting/coronas/crosstalk -- so there is fewer motion artifacts but the motion is blurrier -- it has more persistence-based motion blurring because it is currently mostly unable to strobe brighter briefer. Now, if the last time you saw a strobed LCD was LightBoost in 2012, then that's ancient tech. Strobing has come a long way since, quality-wise.

Once MiniLED scanning FALDs arrive, and at least 10,000 to 50,000 LED-count (like a low-resolution monochrome screen behind LCD) the local dimming blooming is smaller than the blooming around a CRT phosphor dot. My expectation is the commoditization of MiniLED FALD sheeting will occur by approximately year ~2025, making possible the widespread mass-market sub-$1000 locally dimmed desktop monitor. 480Hz OLED-quality FALD-backlit LCD with optional scanning-backlight mode FTW! The industry is FINALLY looking into combining FALD+240Hz soon (ETA 2021), so I am frankly extremely excited about the future of monitors. Though it may take more time beyond that point before they begin to "scan" the FALD.

If you switch from PVM to a modern 2020+ era "Fast IPS" with a strobe mode compatible with your emulator, your overall tradeoff will be approximately:

OLED Blacks: Worse (at least until MiniLED FALD arrives)
Trailbehind Artifacts aka Ghosting/Crosstalk: Imperceptibly Worse (for best) to Noticeably Worse (for worst)
Brightness: Reasonably Good, if you cherrypick brighter strobing brands
Colors: Relatively Good (on wide-gamut IPS), no longer the crappy LightBoost colors
Texturing Artifacts: Relatively Good, no more chessboard artifacts, no contouring, no clor depth loss
Motion Blur: Much clearer motion

I love OLED, but the LCD horse is amazingly keeping up in the 1000Hz race.

However, the problem remains. The lack of 60Hz single-strobe options has hurt the LCD reputation unnecessarily with emulation; since strobe quality has massively improved over the last ten years unbeknownst to many emulator users. I'm trying to convince more vendors to release 60Hz single-strobe options -- whether it's big-name or small-name vendors.
 
Last edited:

strayan

n00b
Joined
Nov 13, 2014
Messages
53
For my personalized recommendation to Eve (which was accepted by them), I have specified a pulse range from approximately 0.25ms MPRT to about 2ms MPRT, ignoring the faint red double-image ghost chasing behind, because of KSF phosphor. It will be less objectionable than, however, the yellow-ghost on, say a plasma TV (even the Pioneer plasma), so the KSF phosphor ghosting isn't too ugly if you can tolerage a bit of phosphory-ghost (CRT-style or plasma-style), it's a red-tinted ghost on a black background.

Remember, the Blur Busters Law specifies that for every 1ms of MPRT(100%) translates to 1 pixel of motion blur per 1000 pixels/second. The best screens I've seen (blur-wise) has less than 1/10th the motion blur of an older 7.5ms Sony PVM. I am not sure how adjustable the pulse width is on the Sony PVM, however.

Currently:
  • For most LCDs, currently you can usually only get global strobe, not rolling strobe. This is something to live with for now (until MiniLED rolling-scan FALD backlight modes).
  • You will get much less motion blur on modern strobed LCDs than an older OLED PVM, but you will get more strobe crosstalk and worse color quality
  • For best desktop OLED strobing, try the 48" LG CX OLED (4.2ms MPRT) that is now superior to the Sony OLED PVM (7.5ms MPRT)
  • For best desktop LCD strobing, try the Blur Busters Approved 240Hz ViewSonic XG270 + 120Hz PureXP + RetroArch 60Hz Software BFI (~0.5ms MPRT to ~2ms MPRT). Alternatively 180Hz PureXP + RetroArch 2:1 60Hz Software BFI (new feature)
  • For best any-LCD I've ever seen, try Oculus Quest 2 VR + Switch 72-to-60Hz + Virtual Desktop + MAME HLSL, to put a floating realistic virtual CRT in front of you in VR (0.3ms MPRT!!!!!!!!!)
But if you cherrypick strobing:
  1. Use tons of refresh rate headroom to max-CRT-qualityize your LCD strobe.
    120Hz strobe on 240Hz panel looks better than 120Hz strobe on 144Hz panel.
  2. Strobe far, far, far, far below max refresh rate
    60hz single strobe on a 240Hz capable panel is ultra-low crosstalk; it becomes faint below human visibility noisefloor
  3. Few screens use 60 Hz single strobe so most have to use combined 120Hz + hardware strobe + software BFI to black out every other strobe
    This can be poor quality on old TN LCDs, but the new 2020-era IPS LCDs have extremely high-quality 120Hz + Software BFI capability
  4. For LCD, use IPS instead of TN for 60Hz single-strobe, to avoid the color-degradation effect.
    Much, much, much, much, much better 60Hz single-strobe quality (regardless of 60Hz native direct single-strobe, or assisted by software BFI to convert 120Hz hardware strobe to 60Hz hardware strobe).
  5. If you are unlucky to have KSF phosphor artifacts, strobe at a higher Hz you can do (e.g. 120Hz or 180Hz or 240H) and use software-based black frame insertion to insert black frames on the panel itself to quickly block-out the slow red phosphorglow from the backlight. This can help rescue a monitor with a KSF phosphor for strobing with emulators.
Then you can have about 1/10th the motion blur of OLED, and can read the TestUFO Panning Map Test at 3000 pixels/second (this TestUFO motion test will not be readable on any Sony PVM - you need 0.5ms MPRT strobing or a real CRT tube. Currently these displays pass this motion blur torture test:
- BenQ displays at Strobe Pulse Width 30 or less
- NVIDIA ULMB displays at Strobe Pulse Width 30 or less
- Oculus Quest 2 VR headset running in-headset browser, or Virtual Desktop
- ViewSonic gaming displays with newer PureXP=Ultra setting
- Upcoming Eve Displays at shorter strobe pulse widths

The problem is that most manufacturers have historically refused to include 60Hz in strobe rate range. While NVIDIA stays with fixed-Hz strobe (e.g. 85Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz), other manufacturers such as BenQ and ViewSonic support strobing at all custom refresh rates above 75 Hz (75Hz through 240Hz in 0.001Hz increments). The irony is that it's a one-line source code change in the monitor firmware to allow strobe at 60 Hz, but manufacturers thinks users don't want 60 Hz single strobing. Which is a problem for emulator users and console users who ACTUALLY want the feature to emulate a nostagilistic 60 Hz CRT of zero-motion-blur nirvana.

Generally, a good strobed LCD can do less motion blur than OLED because of something called the Talbot-Plateau Theorem. You have to flash twice as bright if you flash briefer, to avoid brightness degradation. So a 300nit screen has to strobe 3,000 nits to get 1/10th persistence without brightness loss. This is a HUGE problem for OLED. This is less of a barrier with LCD (outsourced light) than OLED (tiny pixels). LEDs are now stadium-bright. Some manufacturers put overkill LEDs in some screens (like BenQ XL2546 DyAC models, stays 300 nits strobed at 1ms MPRT). Also that Sony 10,000nit prototype HDR display happens to be....guess what?....LCD. And, this is why even Oculus Rift OLED (2ms MPRT) has way more motion blur than Valve Index LCD VR / Oculus LCD VR (0.3ms MPRT).

Although OLED has incredibly fast GtG and avoids ghosting/coronas/crosstalk -- so there is fewer motion artifacts but the motion is blurrier -- it has more persistence-based motion blurring because it is currently mostly unable to strobe brighter briefer. Now, if the last time you saw a strobed LCD was LightBoost in 2012, then that's ancient tech. Strobing has come a long way since, quality-wise.

Once MiniLED scanning FALDs arrive, and at least 10,000 to 50,000 LED-count (like a low-resolution monochrome screen behind LCD) the local dimming blooming is smaller than the blooming around a CRT phosphor dot. My expectation is the commoditization of MiniLED FALD sheeting will occur by approximately year ~2025, making possible the widespread mass-market sub-$1000 locally dimmed desktop monitor. 480Hz OLED-quality FALD-backlit LCD with optional scanning-backlight mode FTW! The industry is FINALLY looking into combining FALD+240Hz soon (ETA 2021), so I am frankly extremely excited about the future of monitors. Though it may take more time beyond that point before they begin to "scan" the FALD.

If you switch from PVM to a modern 2020+ era "Fast IPS" with a strobe mode compatible with your emulator, your overall tradeoff will be approximately:

OLED Blacks: Worse (at least until MiniLED FALD arrives)
Trailbehind Artifacts aka Ghosting/Crosstalk: Imperceptibly Worse (for best) to Noticeably Worse (for worst)
Brightness: Reasonably Good, if you cherrypick brighter strobing brands
Colors: Relatively Good (on wide-gamut IPS), no longer the crappy LightBoost colors
Texturing Artifacts: Relatively Good, no more chessboard artifacts, no contouring, no clor depth loss
Motion Blur: Much clearer motion

I love OLED, but the LCD horse is amazingly keeping up in the 1000Hz race.

However, the problem remains. The lack of 60Hz single-strobe options has hurt the LCD reputation unnecessarily with emulation; since strobe quality has massively improved over the last ten years unbeknownst to many emulator users. I'm trying to convince more vendors to release 60Hz single-strobe options -- whether it's big-name or small-name vendors.
Cheers for this. I’m not using emulation though, actual consoles only. I’m assuming that is going to change my tradeoffs, but how exactly? More motion blur but still less than my OLED PVM-2551?

As an aside do you happen to know any method of reducing/eliminating the yellow ghosting on plasma TVs?

Are you in touch with OSSC creator Markus Hiienkari re the options for implementation of BFI on the forthcoming OSSC Pro? He posts regular updates at the shmups forum:
https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=65892
 
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Chief Blur Buster

Owner of BlurBusters
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
127
Cheers for this. I’m not using emulation though, actual consoles only. I’m assuming that is going to change my tradeoffs, but how exactly? More motion blur but still less than my OLED PVM-2551?
Hard to say, depending on what adaptor is invented. In theory, a video-processor box that accepts 60Hz emulator input and outputs 180Hz (with BFI built in).

But we know intermediary video processors can add latency, so it would have to be an ultra well-oiled one that can immediately output a 180Hz or 240Hz refresh cycle right after buffering a 60Hz refresh cycle. Or even just before (you can begin outputting a 240Hz refresh cycle after buffering 3/4ths of an incoming 60Hz refresh cycle, allowing the scanouts to "meet" at the bottom of the input/output refresh cycles) for absolute minimum possible processing lag. The jump-the-gun algorithm is T + ((1/60) - (1/destHz)) into the scanout of the input signal, whereupon it's okay to begin outputting the output signal even before finishing buffering the whole 60Hz refresh cycle of the input signal. Replace "60" with whatever source Hz, like 50Hz PAL, as applicable.

Jumping the gun like this (to lower latency) is possible since it's a top-to-bottom raster sweep (1/60sec sweep versus 1/240sec sweep, for 240Hz), as we've been raster since the 1930s, from first TVs all the way to 2020s DisplayPort displays, pixel delivery book-style/calendar-style left-to-right, top-to-bottom serialized delivery sequence pushing 2D refresh cycles over a 1D wire.

So a very well-optimized refresh-rate-converting video processor between a hardware console and a hardware display, can be in theory be virtually zero-lag for screen bottom, and only T + ((1/60) - (1/destHz)) lagged for top edge of screen. You simply do line-based processing (for whatever you want to do; like scaling or CRT-filter algorithms), perhaps a rolling-window of 2-scanlines or 3-scanlines. But that's all you need for a ultralowlag refreshrate-converting video processor box.

This is for the first frame of the BFI sequence, since for lowest lag, you want the first frame of a BFI sequence to be the visible frame.

Then plug the console in, and you've got ultralowblur software-BFI-processed output on a destination screen that's far lower lag than a Sony PVM (thanks to LCD lag being much less than Sony OLED PVM, more than compensating for any buffering latency in the video processor converting your 60Hz hardware console to 180Hz or 240Hz BFI-processed output. Odd divisor software BFI (180Hz, 300Hz, etc) will have less image retention risks than even divisor software BFI (120Hz, 240Hz, 360Hz), because most LCD voltage inversion algorithms (the LCD image retention preventer built into all LCDs) are even-number cycles.

Normally I'd post links to Blur Busters Forums, but I already specifically promised to [H]ardOCP that I no longer will for this particular forum, out of respect (there's no restriction on others doing that ontopicly though, AFAIK, anyway). That said, the ad-free TestUFO links are fair game (since it's educational show-and-tell site that is the industry standard automatic micdrop for an awful lot of "Humans Can't Tell 30fps-vs-60fps" debates but there are over a million different hidden easter egg TestUFO tests, with all the possible permutations of configurable TestUFO parameters).

On that note: Hidden Easter Egg TestUFO demonstrating variable pulse-width software BFI: TestUFO Software BFI for 240Hz Monitors (this link doesn't work well on 60Hz monitors; try to view this test at 120Hz and up). Anybody's custom-built video processor can simply build in these software-BFI algorithms, for any refresh rate divisible by emulator refresh rate (e.g. 240Hz for, 60Hz or 200Hz for 50Hz).

An external video processor, could also in theory emulate a CRT electron beam (RetroArch BFIv3 github, and MAME Temporal HLSL -- those are masterplan suggestions for an approximately circa ~2025 feature addition to future emulators.

Also, portions of BFIv2 has already been implemented in RetroArch. The 180Hz trick is also a trick that avoids image retention (Burn-in) that sometimes occurs with 120Hz BFI, which is caused by LCD inversion algorithms generating nasty interactions with software-based BFI (there's a Blur Busters Forum thread in Area 51 Forum discussing how image retention sometimes occur on LCD with software-based BFI, and what the software-based solutions are).

As an aside do you happen to know any method of reducing/eliminating the yellow ghosting on plasma TVs?
Are you in touch with OSSC creator Markus Hiienkari re the options for implementation of BFI on the forthcoming OSSC Pro? He posts regular updates at the shmups forum:
https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=65892

Not currently, but I think I should inform him of the RetroArch BFIv3 / MAME HLSL github items because those are the future Holy Grail (CRT emulators).

A 1000fps high-speed video of a CRT, played back in realtime to a true-1000Hz display, actually "emulates" the look of the original CRT itself, including all its phosphor temporals and zero-blur temporals.

So future emulators and future video processors can mimic this by outputting rolling-bar emulation (rolling-scan software BFI with fuzzy alphablended edges and trailbehind alphablend decay to emulate phosphordecay, and overlapped alphablend prevent tearing artifacts) to future 1000Hz monitors. One need to make sure to math-accumulate the gamma-corrected number of photons-emitted-per-pixel-per-refresh, to make sure that the overlaps between the rollingscan bars don't create tearing artifacts nor creates inconsistent brightness along the vertical dimension on the screen. But this is a simple task for GPU shader mathematics.

It's quite beautifully how future ultra-Hz displays will eventually help resurrect CRTs in non CRT technologies via the sheer brute Hz making electron gun emulators feasible (at the millisecond granularity).

Future HDR headroom (1000nit-2000nit HDR) can help bring sufficient surge brightness into those rolling bars (much like bright electron beams) to compensate for the dimness of rolling-bar CRT emulators, especially in the light of future ultrabright OLEDs and ultrabright FALD LCDs, that approach ultrahigh refresh rates. I've heard of 240Hz local dimming coming, and this is starting to make software-based rolling-scan emulation look more realistic.

This is the Holy Grail BFI (1000Hz displays enabling real CRT electron beam emulators). The more hardware refresh cycles available per emulator refresh cycles, the better. Entry-level rolling-scan emulation is feasible at 240Hz, first real-looking rolling-scan emulation at 360Hz+, and indistinguishable-from-real-CRT rolling-scan emulation at 1000Hz+ (theoretically a thick-glass-covered 4K 1000Hz OLED/MicroLED screen could look identical to a Sony Grand WEGA, spatially AND temporally, including all zeroblur aspects and rolling-flicker natures). MAME HLSL on a retina resolution screen looks spatially kickass. My CRT temporal emulator completes the temporal-look domain.

It'll be a long time before we combine retina-resolution + retina-refresh + retina-HDR, but once that happens, it's child's play to emulate a CRT electron gun or other retro display (like plasma and its contouring/ghosting/temporal dither artifacts).

I suppose these famously Blur Busters Brilliant ideas need to be splitoff to separate threads, as it's no longer Eve-monitor related, but realtime flying CRT electron gun emulation is the Holy Grail that comes after discrete full frame BFI, with 1ms worth of CRT beam action merged/integrated in 1000fps@1000Hz, creating a computer-generated equivalent of a high speed video of a CRT.

Basically a software equivalent (or a video processor box equivalent) of a 1000fps high-speed video of a CRT, played back in realtime to a true-1000Hz display that actually "emulates" the look of the original CRT itself. The upcoming "low-persistence sample-and-hold" displays make them ideal temporal candidates for being able to emulate the temporals of past retro displays; by the sheer software developer's luxury to do software-based rolling scans and software-based temporal dithering, thanks to sheer brute refresh rates (1000fps 1000Hz) of upcoming future 1000Hz displays.

In a theoretical video processor use case, input is a 60Hz signal from your original machine, with output as a 1000Hz signal (designed for a future 1000Hz display of the 2030s). Ala, CRT emulator video processor box for your retro console. Can even be beamraced too, in sync with whatever your original output is doing (with only 1/1000sec lagbehind)

A CRT emulator ideally requires high-Hz + HDR, to look proper, but that's going to arrive in the future. The first displays where software-based CRT electron gun emulation (best at >240Hz) look clearly superior to software-based full-frame BFI (best for 240Hz-and-less). The upcoming 1440p 240Hz (at 600-750 nits) is roughly the bare minimum for a useful practical rolling-scan CRT emulator that also has a passable MAME HLSL filter texture, while not becoming too dim during rolling scan (~200 nits). I hope somebody programs a rolling-scan CRT emulator sooner this decade rather than later. Albiet at only 4 hardware refresh cycles per 1 emulator refresh cycles, it'll be heavily temporally integrated (like a 240fps high speed video of a CRT played back onto a 240Hz monitor). And can't go below absolute minimum ~4ms phosphor decay (throttled by the length of the actual hardware refresh cycles on sample-and-hold displays). But, for most legacy content, 4ms phosphor decay emulation is superior to plasma displays.

It's a good first pre-step towards 1000Hz displays that will accurately emulate 1ms phosphor decay to almost human perceptible limits for majority of population; provided enough HDR nit headroom is available to compensate for large black time between brief ultrabright HDR pixel pulses, in a software-based CRT electron beam emulator.

Although futurist think, early brief tests on 240Hz-to-360Hz monitors have already validated the promise of this CRT electron gun emulation path as an eventual sequel to fullframe BFI;

*** EDIT *** EDIT *** EDIT *** EDIT *** EDIT ***
Exact firmware version of Blur Busters strobe tuning is not fully confirmed yet (as of May 2020), so depending on how this progresses -- please be noted that all tuning assistance I've given to Eve for strobe tuning, MAY ship in the post-shipping firmware upgrade (e.g. much as it did for XG270). Fortunately, Eve 4K's are user firmware upgradeable which means strobe tuning can be fully finished after shipping, if necessary. Good strobe tuning of a KSF panel is a lot more work than the average panel, with lots of communications between Blur Busters & Eve's scaler vendor. Crosstalk is progressively decreasing. Goal is too see a KSF panel strobe-crosstalk less than plasma TV ghosting (even if not as low as non-KSF panel). KSF creates no problem without strobing (google "KSF red ghosting"). The eye-pleasingly brilliant-color-gamut KSF panels are always a challenge for strobe tuning! :)

UPDATE: All my strobe-tuning enhancements went gold in V100R852 firmware version that made it to mass production!
Announcement
*** EDIT *** EDIT *** EDIT *** EDIT *** EDIT ***
 
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Epos7

Gawd
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Messages
797
I made the balance payment on my 4K 144Hz Spectrum unit today.

Expected to ship end of June.

I'm excited to see what this monitor can offer for $700. I've been using a Dell P2715Q for quite some time, as well as my LG OLED TV.

I think the Dell might go to the family cabin, and I'll look for a second display to complement the Spectrum. Ideally the Spectrum would cover Adobe RGB, but at the price it's not at all surprising that it does not. I expect the Spectrum will be fantastic for gaming (will be my first VRR display) and passable for photo editing. The new BenQ photography displays sound pretty fantastic (no back light bleed!) but hoo boy are they expensive, and those giant bezels are ugly, but they serve the purpose of blocking backlight bleed.

https://www.benq.com/en-us/monitor/photographer/sw271c.html
 

Chief Blur Buster

Owner of BlurBusters
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
127
For those curious, here are the details of my skunkworks involvement tuning the strobe features of Eve 4K 144Hz Spectrum:
https://eve.community/t/blur-buster-eve-spectrum-strobe-tuning-completion/29085

As Chief Blur Buster I want to personally confirm that I assisted Eve with strobe tuning. I completed my strobe tuning work this week. Talk about tight timing!

I personally requested that my completion is not pre-announced since this is a first-time gaming monitor vendor that needed to pass through the whole Blur Busters process first. I prefer not seeing terrible strobing happening. I was not sure they were able to achieve it – but I can confirm that they were able to implement all my strobe-tuning modifications. Now we went through the process and I can trust that my features is now going to be put into the shipping firmware – I can tell more.

(For new posters, “strobing” is a motion blur reduction feature to allow LCDs to match the motion clarity of impulse-driven displays such as CRTs, plasmas, etc).

So without further ado:

Strobing Works With PC, Consoles and Television Sources
No computer is mandatory for strobing – any HDMI & DP video source can gain motion blur reduction via strobing. Cable, Blu-Ray, PlayStation, X-Box. You will be able to watch sports cable television from a cable TV box connected to an EVE Spectrum, at 60Hz and 120Hz single-strobe

Despite KSF phosphor, less motion blur than a plasma TV
Users here may be familiar with the link I posted earlier – [link to Blur Busters Area 51 self-removed by me to respect HardForum rules] – as Eve has the great wide-gamut color but the KSF phosphor has a (smallish, depending on your POV) con when it comes to strobing. Fortunately I was able to confirm that the Eve 4K Spectrum manages to achieve less motion blur than a plasma TV. The middle of the screen at 60 Hz has almost no strobe crosstalk and fairly little KSF ghosting with most video content. Plasma televisions (even the famous Pioneer Plasma) has a well-known yellow-ghosting issue, and the KSF ghosting with well-tuned strobing is currently less visible than that. Despite KSF, sub-millisecond MPRT is still possible with the Eve Spectrum.

As I already posted before – due to the impressive color but slow-strobing KSF phosphor, it is unable to pass the criteria required for a Blur Busters Approved logo. However, it went through the whole process for the best-possible that I think a KSF panel can get! However, for a KSF panel, it’s not bad. I was able to tune the Eve Spectrum to have significantly less phosphor ghosting than a plasma TV.

But, the important thing at the end of the day – EVE Spectrum manages to ghosts less than a plasma TV. Not bad for a KSF panel!

Easy Factory Pretuned Modes
The easy factory pretuned strobe refresh rates are are 50Hz, 60Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz and 144Hz.

User Defined Pulse Width
The user defined pulse width is adjustable in the onscreen menu from 1% refresh cycle to 25% refresh cycle, translating to resulting MPRTs between 1% to 25% of the refresh interval. This is a brightness versus motion clarity tradeoff. Metaphorically, it is like adjusting the speed of a CRT phosphor! Dimmer & clearer motion, versus brighter & very slightly softer motion (but still clearer than without strobing). Shorter pulse widths can be great if you use material with ultrafast motion speeds (2000 pixels/second or faster panning motions).

Retro Friendly Low-Hz Strobing
Yes, you emulator users, single-strobe custom Hz including 50 Hz and 60 Hz is supported! So your 60 years of legacy 60fps 60Hz content can be strobed faithfully like a 50-60Hz CRT at both PAL and NTSC strobe frequency. For best ergonomics, keep low-Hz strobe disabled in the bright Windows Desktop (flickers too much), and enable the strobe when you launch your copy of Sega Sonic Hedgehog or anything that demands single strobe CRT emulation! Something NVIDIA strobing (ULMB) cannot do with an external video source!

For Advanced Users: EVE Strobe Utility software package coming
As a service to all manufactures we help strobe-tune, we optionally provide a free skinned/branded versions of optional strobe tuning utilities for users. EVE has opted in. Therefore, I will ship an EVE Strobe Utility software package shortly (0-100% Strobe Phase, 1%-25% Strobe Pulse Width, and 64-Level Overdrive Gain!) for advanced users who want to dive deeper into strobe tuning. Just like professionals sometimes buys a colorimeters to calibrate advanced color, this is for advanced blur reduction users who would like additional optional control above-and-beyond. Any custom strobed Hz from 50Hz to 144Hz can be created via a custom resolution. For example 3840x2160 running at 128Hz with your custom strobe tuning.

3a25c40b9061ce77489256a264cd650c9950c913_2_690x196.png
Choice For User
Some people gets more LCD motion blur headaches and strobing is the lesser evil for some people. So your mileage will vary. Purely optional – backlight strobing can be turned ON / OFF. Everybody has different preferences!
 

MistaSparkul

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
1,706
For those curious, here are the details of my skunkworks involvement tuning the strobe features of Eve 4K 144Hz Spectrum:
https://eve.community/t/blur-buster-eve-spectrum-strobe-tuning-completion/29085

Hey Chief, is there any chance you would work with Gigabyte on the FI32U 4k 144Hz IPS on fine tuning it's backlight strobing? Or perhaps the Viewsonic equivalent (XG320U) since you have already worked with them before. I believe the 32 inch 4k IPS panels that will be used in the FI32U and Viewsonic equivalent are not LG Nano IPS panels either so wouldn't they be free of the KSF phosphor problem as well? I expect those panels to also be just as fast, if not faster than LG Nano IPS. A 32 inch 4k 144Hz fast IPS with a highly tunable backlight strobing would be the dream!
 

Chief Blur Buster

Owner of BlurBusters
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
127
Are you able to provide any information Mark about the maximum strobe brightness? The dimness has always been a huge turnoff for me
RTINGS and others will have to measure that.

But to assist in homework -- as a rule of thumb you can calculate that on published Pulse Width to get a reliable minimum. Adjustable Pulse Width 1%-25% of a refresh cycle, without voltage boosting is 1%-25% of max brightness (~650 nits as per the spec of Eve Spectrum 4K 144). But with some mild voltage boosting during strobe mode available other panels (e.g. the upcoming Blur Busters Approved ViewSonic XG2431), the brightness of strobing can get better relative to its strobe pulse percentage of refresh cycle, well into the mid 200s of nits.

Dimness is a tradeoff of LED wear and tear, and the amount of voltage boosting the manufacturer is comfortable with. BenQ has been super-aggressive with extremely high voltage boosting in DyAc+ (300-400 nits) but few manufacturers have been willing to risk these leagues at this time.

Common voltage boost percentages may be 0% to 200%+ (e.g. 1000nit pulses of a 350nit backlight), usually non-configurable by the user for risk reasons (backlight damage).

Eventually I'm sure there will be a panel where 300+nit IPS strobe is achieved.

P.S. I'm now beginning work on VRR strobing.

Hey Chief, is there any chance you would work with Gigabyte on the FI32U 4k 144Hz IPS on fine tuning it's backlight strobing? Or perhaps the Viewsonic equivalent (XG320U) since you have already worked with them before. I believe the 32 inch 4k IPS panels that will be used in the FI32U and Viewsonic equivalent are not LG Nano IPS panels either so wouldn't they be free of the KSF phosphor problem as well? I expect those panels to also be just as fast, if not faster than LG Nano IPS. A 32 inch 4k 144Hz fast IPS with a highly tunable backlight strobing would be the dream!
If Gigabyte and ViewSonic is willing to hire Blur Busters tuning services for such models, I would be happy to do them. Currently, these two models don't currently have any Blur Busters contracts attached to them.

Please ask your favorite monitor vendor to consider applying for Blur Busters Approved 2.0 programme (the post-COVID reboot!). It's announced in the recent press release (Website -> Company -> Press Releases)
 
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Vega

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Messages
6,614
Mark, as far as you know is the Eve Montour you worked on a real project? Just briefly looked it up and reddit is awash with topics about it being a scam.
 
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