Epic Games Sues Apple

DukenukemX

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As already mentioned, they do far more than that... they manage ongoing user subscriptions, payment gateway, maintaining the platform and Apple also dig through every app with a fine tooth comb to make sure they aren’t hiding anything like malware, privacy breaches etc...
That's all nice and all but you give up a lot of freedoms with it. Would you want Microsoft or Apple to prevent you from installing whatever program or app you want on you laptop? iOS users are giving up a lot to have Apple decide what you can or can't do with your device. This is why you can't have emulators on your iOS devices because Apple doesn't want you to circumvent where you get your apps.
Jesus even a retail store that sells a simple product takes a similar cut after wholesalers. They are entitled to make money you know...
But this isn't a retail store. The app store is just a middle man between me and my app. You want to look at a repository as a store, and that hasn't been the case since forever on computers. Fact was that if you wanted a program then you went to their website and payed for it and downloaded the installer. Nobody else to take a cut of the sale. That's why Valve made Steam, why EA made Origin, and why Epic made their own store. Inevitably even Apple devices will legally need to allow apps installed outside of the app store. I can't wait to see how the iOS app store is going to work on the ARM Macbooks they're making.
You really think Epic are going pass the savings on to you? LOL they want to pocket the 30% or more...
I'm not defending Epic, but I do agree with Epic that Apple either needs to fuck off with that restriction or allow apps to be installed without needing the app store. On PC or Android you don't have that problem. Even on Mac OSX you don't have this problem. This is a problem exclusive to iOS.
 

TheToE!

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I should be like "Good for them", but...It's Epic games, fuck those guys.
 

cybereality

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It would set an interesting precedent if they won. Are mobile devices "general computing systems" and are computers required by law to allow the user to install custom software and/or operating systems?

A lot could change. Are gaming consoles "computing devices"? I mean, hardware-wise they are basically PCs with some integration tweaks. So will we be allowed to install Linux, or even Windows 10, on a PS5?

Then think about homebrew games, and/or software that would be otherwise banned or not allowed. For example, games involving the drug trade, adult entertainment, hacking software. It could be a huge decision.
 

Aireoth

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I think there are a lot of people in here that think somehow this will be a net positive.

Reality is it will dramatically decrease security (and most phone users are not tech savvy), increase the number of apps you need to run to access various stores, and 99.9% of everything that wouldn't be accessible by the current means will be utter and complete garbage.
 

cybereality

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Would it be, though? Linux is a free-for-all for everyone and there are very little viruses or malware.

Windows, while it has a bad rap from previous years, is actually relatively secure if you don't visit shady websites.

Not sure what would be wrong with mobile being the same thing.
 

Aireoth

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Would it be, though? Linux is a free-for-all for everyone and there are very little viruses or malware.

Windows, while it has a bad rap from previous years, is actually relatively secure if you don't visit shady websites.

Not sure what would be wrong with mobile being the same thing.

Yes, your being dense comparing it to linux which is a niche system for tech savvy users.

Most windows users are slightly more techsavvy than phone users, everyone has a phone, not everyone has Windows. What you are advocating removes all QC and oversight in favor of a freeforall, something these systems are not designed for. How long did it take windows to properly secure itself? You will need virus software and security software for your phone, so will everyone else, that barely exists today and would take time to build up and actually be secure.
 
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cybereality

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Good point. I'm just saying that open computer systems exist and are working.

You're right, though. If you compare an average mobile user to average PC user, then the level of technical understanding is very different.

But, just like Microsoft on Windows, Google and Apple could include anti-virus/security software with the phones while still allowing alternative stores or side-loaded content.
 

blackmomba

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Yes, your being dense comparing it to linux which is a niche system for tech savvy users.

Most windows users are slightly more techsavvy than phone users, everyone has a phone, not everyone has Windows. What you are advocating removes all QC and oversight in favor of a freeforall, something these systems are not designed for. How long did it take windows to properly secure itself? You will need virus software and security software for your phone, so will everyone else, that barely exists today and would take time to build up and actually be secure.
20190520163625-465f2b97.png
 
D

Deleted member 243478

Guest
That's all nice and all but you give up a lot of freedoms with it. Would you want Microsoft or Apple to prevent you from installing whatever program or app you want on you laptop? iOS users are giving up a lot to have Apple decide what you can or can't do with your device. This is why you can't have emulators on your iOS devices because Apple doesn't want you to circumvent where you get your apps.

But this isn't a retail store. The app store is just a middle man between me and my app. You want to look at a repository as a store, and that hasn't been the case since forever on computers. Fact was that if you wanted a program then you went to their website and payed for it and downloaded the installer. Nobody else to take a cut of the sale. That's why Valve made Steam, why EA made Origin, and why Epic made their own store. Inevitably even Apple devices will legally need to allow apps installed outside of the app store. I can't wait to see how the iOS app store is going to work on the ARM Macbooks they're making.

I'm not defending Epic, but I do agree with Epic that Apple either needs to fuck off with that restriction or allow apps to be installed without needing the app store. On PC or Android you don't have that problem. Even on Mac OSX you don't have this problem. This is a problem exclusive to iOS.

You want to sideload apps? Go and buy Android, stop expecting Apple to be like Android... everything that makes iPhone good would disappear overnight.

We don’t need another Android.

I don’t want antivirus on my phone or second guessing what I’m installing, I just want my damm phone to work and be efficient.

Sideloading apps would compromise the entire Apple ecosystem for the sake of saving 10% - 20% over direct developer sales. A saving that would disappear over time as developers get more and more greedy.
 
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Aurelius

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Good point. I'm just saying that open computer systems exist and are working.

You're right, though. If you compare an average mobile user to average PC user, then the level of technical understanding is very different.

But, just like Microsoft on Windows, Google and Apple could include anti-virus/security software with the phones while still allowing alternative stores or side-loaded content.

You do realize this makes a strong case against opening things up, right?

Hey, all you have to do is inflict the security issues and software headaches that plague Windows users. I'm so looking forward to AV software bogging down my iPhone, and introducing security holes that didn't need to exist. AV developers actually tried this once, asking Apple to break its security so they could come in and fix it.

I like sideloading in theory, but in practice... well, we've see how Android ended up, where malware frequently comes through major third-party app stores and web links. I'd rather push for fairer terms on the App Store than force Apple to open the proverbial can of worms.
 
D

Deleted member 243478

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You do realize this makes a strong case against opening things up, right?

Hey, all you have to do is inflict the security issues and software headaches that plague Windows users. I'm so looking forward to AV software bogging down my iPhone, and introducing security holes that didn't need to exist. AV developers actually tried this once, asking Apple to break its security so they could come in and fix it.

I like sideloading in theory, but in practice... well, we've see how Android ended up, where malware frequently comes through major third-party app stores and web links. I'd rather push for fairer terms on the App Store than force Apple to open the proverbial can of worms.

Agreed! The experience, security and performance you have on Android vs Apple are a direct result of how they do things and how things are locked down.

You already have both choices when buying a device, so pick the right one that suits you and stop expecting them to change.
 

DukenukemX

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It would set an interesting precedent if they won. Are mobile devices "general computing systems" and are computers required by law to allow the user to install custom software and/or operating systems?
Wasn't that the issue behind Netscape vs Internet Explorer? You know, United States vs Microsoft where "U.S. government accused Microsoft of illegally maintaining its monopoly position in the PC market primarily through the legal and technical restrictions it put on the abilities of PC manufacturers (OEMs) and users to uninstall Internet Explorer and use other programs such as Netscape and Java." How is Apple getting a pass on iOS?
A lot could change. Are gaming consoles "computing devices"? I mean, hardware-wise they are basically PCs with some integration tweaks. So will we be allowed to install Linux, or even Windows 10, on a PS5?
As a Linux user I would like that.
Then think about homebrew games, and/or software that would be otherwise banned or not allowed. For example, games involving the drug trade, adult entertainment, hacking software. It could be a huge decision.
Games that involve drug trade? You know something I'm not aware of? Homebrew games would be awesome to have since that used to be something iOS users could do with a simple jailbreak. Too bad jailbreaking isn't simple anymore, or permanent.

Reality is it will dramatically decrease security (and most phone users are not tech savvy), increase the number of apps you need to run to access various stores, and 99.9% of everything that wouldn't be accessible by the current means will be utter and complete garbage.
As a person who repairs phones, I'm looking forward to the business increase. Net positive for me. :) Keep in mind that Windows, Android, and Mac OSX are open and yet don't seem to have issues. At least the issues aren't deterring people from buying these devices. Also Windows and Android are far more popular than Mac OSX and iOS. Apple's restrictions on app is purely for profit driven motives. Epics lawsuit is also profit driven but this time Epic is correct. A lot of this could have been avoided if Apple just let apps that stream content on their store for free. You know what they say, if you get too greedy then you lose everything.

Yes, your being dense comparing it to linux which is a niche system for tech savvy users.
Not really. If Linux can make it work with very few viruses or malware being able to infect it, and Linux powers majority of the servers in the world, then Apple should be more than capable of doing so. iOS doesn't even have the largest install base of users, but does have users that are willing to spend more money compared to Android.
Most windows users are slightly more techsavvy than phone users, everyone has a phone, not everyone has Windows.
Be careful how you word that, because that's a mistake Blizzard did. Keep in mind most people have Android phones with iOS market share in 2019 at 22.17%. Apple is in no position to argue that it's users are stupid, because Android has been doing it from day 1 and has been just fine.

What you are advocating removes all QC and oversight in favor of a freeforall, something these systems are not designed for.
That's something you should be upset about. Both Android and iOS rarely update themselves, and therefore are more likely insecure. Just because the apps come from the app store doesn't mean your device isn't open to attacks elsewhere. There's a reason why Windows and Linux get updates nearly everyday while iOS users may get it once a year and Android users are lucky to ever get an update. The reason mobile devices do this is because it's cheaper, not because it's better.

How long did it take windows to properly secure itself? You will need virus software and security software for your phone, so will everyone else, that barely exists today and would take time to build up and actually be secure.
Linux doesn't need virus software and yet it gets away with it. There's a reason why Microsoft Windows has vulnerabilities that exist as far back as Windows NT, because it's cheaper to avoid something that isn't a huge problem. Microsoft is cheap about fixing their OS.

You want to sideload apps? Go and buy Android, stop expecting Apple to be like Android... everything that makes iPhone good would disappear overnight.
iPhone good HAHAHAHA! Stop making mistakes by buying Apple products. I hear Apple hasn't yet to discover this amazing technology called the SD Card.

5lcbs48hisw41.png
 
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sharknice

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No surprise that the same people that hate on EGS for "being anti competitive and having exclusives" (even though you can literally buy keys cheaper on GMG etc.) are arguing it's 100% OK for the app store to be the only place to buy apps on iPhone and not allow cheaper prices elsewhere. The logic of social justice gamers never ceases to entertain.
 

Aurelius

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No surprise that the same people that hate on EGS for "being anti competitive and having exclusives" (even though you can literally buy keys cheaper on GMG etc.) are arguing it's 100% OK for the app store to be the only place to buy apps on iPhone and not allow cheaper prices elsewhere. The logic of social justice gamers never ceases to entertain.

What the hell does this have to do with social justice? Please, let's stick to the actual business aspects of this instead of trying to make it a socio-political affair.

My beef isn't so much Epic's doublespeak as that it's trying to exploit gamers for what's ultimately a self-serving purpose, and too many people are willing to give it a free pass out of anti-Apple grudges or just an unwillingness to hold a nuanced argument where no one party is clearly in the right.
 

cageymaru

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Source
Apple removed Fortnite from the App Store and has informed Epic that on Friday, August 28 Apple will terminate all our developer accounts and cut Epic off from iOS and Mac development tools. We are asking the court to stop this retaliation. Details here:
 

cybereality

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So now Unreal Engine is in jeopardy too? Epic has some money, sure, but going up against Apple is a losing battle.
 

KarateBob

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So now Unreal Engine is in jeopardy too? Epic has some money, sure, but going up against Apple is a losing battle.
Epic was recetly valued around 17 bill vs Apple at between 900 bill and 1 trill. A long legal battle realistically cant cost more than a few hundred million, right?....lawyers billing at $200/hr,
40hrs/week 50weeks/yr
400k per lawyer per year, or 10 mil/25 lawyers per year.

Epic is trying to prove a point and they think they're right. It'll just take the right courtroom tactics (cough counter-bribes) to pull off defeating Apple.
 

Darunion

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I wonder if Tencent is leveraging this in anyway as well. They don't own epic games but do likely have a lot of say in things.
 

Axman

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Not particularly. Is there something that stands out as fishy?
 

Axman

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That strikes me as being a byproduct of lots of new tech, new IP laws, and old legal standards clashing. We're bound to see that; I'd expect a fundamental lack of understanding here to find in total favor for Apple here, rather than bribery or malice.
 

KarateBob

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You do realize this makes a strong case against opening things up, right?

Hey, all you have to do is inflict the security issues and software headaches that plague Windows users. I'm so looking forward to AV software bogging down my iPhone, and introducing security holes that didn't need to exist. AV developers actually tried this once, asking Apple to break its security so they could come in and fix it.

I like sideloading in theory, but in practice... well, we've see how Android ended up, where malware frequently comes through major third-party app stores and web links. I'd rather push for fairer terms on the App Store than force Apple to open the proverbial can of worms.
Do you realize that the two app stores have a much higher percentage of having malware hidden in random apps I might install, compared to the minimal amount of apps I would manually side-load from obvious trusted sources? Your argument is backwards.
 

sc5mu93

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I just want to see this prolonged. Every dollar Epic spends on this fight, is one less it spends on buying exclusives. Which benefits all consumers. ;)
 

Aurelius

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Do you realize that the two app stores have a much higher percentage of having malware hidden in random apps I might install, compared to the minimal amount of apps I would manually side-load from obvious trusted sources? Your argument is backwards.

You don't represent the entirety of the Android market, in case you weren't aware.

Yes, technically savvy enthusiasts who just want to install a boundary-pushing app or a beta will know whether or not a source is trustworthy. But most people aren't tech-savvy enthusiasts, and there's plenty of real-world evidence to show that sideloading has its risks.

There are many, many examples of sideloaded Android malware. The attackers will even go out of their way to tell victims how to sideload apps. And this clearly works; XHelper alone infected over 45,000 devices.

I'd also love to know where you have evidence that malware in official app stores is more prevalent than in sideloaded apps. No really, prove it. Meanwhile, reports of malware in the App Store are extremely rare (it's been ages since I saw one, and I've been looking). You might have more of a case for Google Play, but then Google is also notorious for trusting its automated systems to screen everything rather than checking apps directly.

Again, I'm not completely opposed to the concept of sideloading, but it has its share of demonstrable problems. If Apple did anything like that I suspect it would take the optional Developer ID program from the Mac and make it mandatory on iOS. That is, you could install apps from beyond the App Store, but Apple would have the power to disable the app at any time if it turned out to be malware.
 

Aireoth

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Wasn't that the issue behind Netscape vs Internet Explorer? You know, United States vs Microsoft where "U.S. government accused Microsoft of illegally maintaining its monopoly position in the PC market primarily through the legal and technical restrictions it put on the abilities of PC manufacturers (OEMs) and users to uninstall Internet Explorer and use other programs such as Netscape and Java." How is Apple getting a pass on iOS?

As a Linux user I would like that.

Games that involve drug trade? You know something I'm not aware of? Homebrew games would be awesome to have since that used to be something iOS users could do with a simple jailbreak. Too bad jailbreaking isn't simple anymore, or permanent.


As a person who repairs phones, I'm looking forward to the business increase. Net positive for me. :) Keep in mind that Windows, Android, and Mac OSX are open and yet don't seem to have issues. At least the issues aren't deterring people from buying these devices. Also Windows and Android are far more popular than Mac OSX and iOS. Apple's restrictions on app is purely for profit driven motives. Epics lawsuit is also profit driven but this time Epic is correct. A lot of this could have been avoided if Apple just let apps that stream content on their store for free. You know what they say, if you get too greedy then you lose everything.


Not really. If Linux can make it work with very few viruses or malware being able to infect it, and Linux powers majority of the servers in the world, then Apple should be more than capable of doing so. iOS doesn't even have the largest install base of users, but does have users that are willing to spend more money compared to Android.

Be careful how you word that, because that's a mistake Blizzard did. Keep in mind most people have Android phones with iOS market share in 2019 at 22.17%. Apple is in no position to argue that it's users are stupid, because Android has been doing it from day 1 and has been just fine.


That's something you should be upset about. Both Android and iOS rarely update themselves, and therefore are more likely insecure. Just because the apps come from the app store doesn't mean your device isn't open to attacks elsewhere. There's a reason why Windows and Linux get updates nearly everyday while iOS users may get it once a year and Android users are lucky to ever get an update. The reason mobile devices do this is because it's cheaper, not because it's better.


Linux doesn't need virus software and yet it gets away with it. There's a reason why Microsoft Windows has vulnerabilities that exist as far back as Windows NT, because it's cheaper to avoid something that isn't a huge problem. Microsoft is cheap about fixing their OS.


iPhone good HAHAHAHA! Stop making mistakes by buying Apple products. I hear Apple hasn't yet to discover this amazing technology called the SD Card.

View attachment 270559

Those Linux devices are not run by your nephew or grandma, thats the point.
 

Lakados

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Those Linux devices are not run by your nephew or grandma, thats the point.
You just have to remember that hundreds of millions of phone users have to be reminded yearly to not take pictures of the backs of gift cards and credit cards to send to strange gmail addresses to realize that the average mobile user isn't up on what is and isn't a good idea in terms of security and privacy... I lament that this degree of hand holding is needed in the mobile market but really that's what happens when you cater the the absolute masses, the lowest common denominator becomes your weakest link and the more options you give the more somebody is going to get them wrong.
 

Lakados

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I wonder if Tencent is leveraging this in anyway as well. They don't own epic games but do likely have a lot of say in things.
Very possible, because of the greater degree of security in the iOS store it is harder to get certain features included in iOS apps which greatly delays their approval rate in China, many Chinese developers have commented that iOS apps take 2-3 times longer to get approval for from the government regulators. Allowing for side loading would bypass the Apple security and speed up the approval rates so they could launch on both platforms at the same time,
 

Col_Temp

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I did a whole night of consumer protection law research and ended up with a deep seated, all consuming confusion.

If lawyers understand this shit, I'm just impressed.
And now you get the point. Almost all laws are written this way. Since common sense has long sense left the room!
 

Col_Temp

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You just have to remember that hundreds of millions of phone users have to be reminded yearly to not take pictures of the backs of gift cards and credit cards to send to strange gmail addresses to realize that the average mobile user isn't up on what is and isn't a good idea in terms of security and privacy... I lament that this degree of hand holding is needed in the mobile market but really that's what happens when you cater the the absolute masses, the lowest common denominator becomes your weakest link and the more options you give the more somebody is going to get them wrong.
Very well put, and that my friend sums this up very well.
 

blackmomba

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You don't represent the entirety of the Android market, in case you weren't aware.

Yes, technically savvy enthusiasts who just want to install a boundary-pushing app or a beta will know whether or not a source is trustworthy. But most people aren't tech-savvy enthusiasts, and there's plenty of real-world evidence to show that sideloading has its risks.

There are many, many examples of sideloaded Android malware. The attackers will even go out of their way to tell victims how to sideload apps. And this clearly works; XHelper alone infected over 45,000 devices.

I'd also love to know where you have evidence that malware in official app stores is more prevalent than in sideloaded apps. No really, prove it. Meanwhile, reports of malware in the App Store are extremely rare (it's been ages since I saw one, and I've been looking). You might have more of a case for Google Play, but then Google is also notorious for trusting its automated systems to screen everything rather than checking apps directly.

Again, I'm not completely opposed to the concept of sideloading, but it has its share of demonstrable problems. If Apple did anything like that I suspect it would take the optional Developer ID program from the Mac and make it mandatory on iOS. That is, you could install apps from beyond the App Store, but Apple would have the power to disable the app at any time if it turned out to be malware.

The people who aren't tech savvy enough to recognize trustworthy sources aren't sideloading apps either

This fear that if given the ability everyone and their mother is gonna start shooting themselves in the foot by sideloading malware is just absurd

The Play store is where 99.9% of Android users get their software even with the ability to install from 3rd party sources. Why would it suddenly become a gaping security hole if Apple allowed for third party sources just as Google does ?
 

Lakados

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The people who aren't tech savvy enough to recognize trustworthy sources aren't sideloading apps either

This fear that if given the ability everyone and their mother is gonna start shooting themselves in the foot by sideloading malware is just absurd

The Play store is where 99.9% of Android users get their software even with the ability to install from 3rd party sources. Why would it suddenly become a gaping security hole if Apple allowed for third party sources just as Google does ?
Yes they are, about 6 months ago one of my staff members put their wife’s phone on the company wifi network. They can’t even turn on a PC yet figured out how to side load a bunch of stuff from China. 6 months later I’m still dealing with the ramifications as they used that as the entry point to host an entire attack.

Edit: I should clarify he was in Management so all he did was fill out the forms and submit a request for the device to get access and said it was for a needed employee. She was recently hired in Janitorial not a position that would generally qualify but just left that part out.
 
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Yes they are, about 6 months ago one of my staff members put their wife’s phone on the company wifi network. They can’t even turn on a PC yet figured out how to side load a bunch of stuff from China. 6 months later I’m still dealing with the ramifications as they used that as the entry point to host an entire attack.

Edit: I should clarify he was in Management so all he did was fill out the forms and submit a request for the device to get access and said it was for a needed employee. She was recently hired in Janitorial not a position that would generally qualify but just left that part out.

So the employee was given permission to sideload? Sounds like company error?
The last time I've ever heard of someone sideloading anything is this post.
 

KarateBob

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You don't represent the entirety of the Android market, in case you weren't aware.

Yes, technically savvy enthusiasts who just want to install a boundary-pushing app or a beta will know whether or not a source is trustworthy. But most people aren't tech-savvy enthusiasts, and there's plenty of real-world evidence to show that sideloading has its risks.

There are many, many examples of sideloaded Android malware. The attackers will even go out of their way to tell victims how to sideload apps. And this clearly works; XHelper alone infected over 45,000 devices.

I'd also love to know where you have evidence that malware in official app stores is more prevalent than in sideloaded apps. No really, prove it. Meanwhile, reports of malware in the App Store are extremely rare (it's been ages since I saw one, and I've been looking). You might have more of a case for Google Play, but then Google is also notorious for trusting its automated systems to screen everything rather than checking apps directly.

Again, I'm not completely opposed to the concept of sideloading, but it has its share of demonstrable problems. If Apple did anything like that I suspect it would take the optional Developer ID program from the Mac and make it mandatory on iOS. That is, you could install apps from beyond the App Store, but Apple would have the power to disable the app at any time if it turned out to be malware.
Millions more people are installing malware-laden apps from the official app stores than from sideloading.

https://arstechnica.com/information...-with-1-7-million-downloads-many-by-children/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdof...-store-delete-these-66-apps-now/#3f2622127bca
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=malware+playstore

Maybe we should ban guns because people cant be trusted not to shoot people? Ban cars because people cant be trusted not to drive unsafely? Ban independent thought because it may lead to an uprising? Walled gardens...lol.
 
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