EK on the cheap

Discussion in 'Water Cooling' started by pendragon1, Jun 13, 2017.

  1. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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  2. thesmokingman

    thesmokingman [H]ardness Supreme

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    Eeek, alu for the lose. I would wait another month, skip a sandwich and beer or two for the goodstuff, copper. Sorry broheem...
     
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  3. Gman1979

    Gman1979 Gawd

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    I guess EK didn't get enough complaints about their nickle plating problems previously. Seems they decided to go whole hog into dissimilar metal stupidity. Seriously, this would only make sense if you were already inept enough to be using aluminum blocks and expanding such a sadly constructed loop to some unknown end. SAD.
     
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  4. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    did you not watch the vid? watch it then re-read/do your post.

    the difference between copper and alu performance is a few degrees but the all alu is much cheaper. it is a pretty good bang for buck setup. and I think the dull alu and black looks better than most mixed metal setups.
     
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  5. Gman1979

    Gman1979 Gawd

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    Have you ever wondered why copper radiators are preferred in vehicles? Aluminum could easily handle most of their cooling needs but it is much more prone to corrosion over time. Also, if your spending money on water cooling, would you cheap out on the pump to save a few bucks in exchange for a few degrees higher temp? I would hope not, so why do the same with aluminum blocks?
     
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  6. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    every single piece of that kit is alu even the pump and it has warning labels about it, even the fittings are alu. the provided fluid is anti-corrosive just in case. there is nothing in this kit that would cause corrosion and most vehicle rads are mixed copper/alu unless you go all copper after market. also they use a higher mix of AF to prevent corrosion since there are more mixed metals in a car than a WC kit.

    again, did you watch the vid?

    edit: not everybody wants to spend $500 on a basic loop. if this gives you 80-90% performance for 50% cost that's pretty good.

    edit2: pump is a EK-ACR SPC-60(alu impeller)
     
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  7. thesmokingman

    thesmokingman [H]ardness Supreme

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    I just watched the video... smh. Once you go alu you can't go back. Everything in the whole loop must be alu or you will wreak havoc on yourself. Thus if you're already a watercooler, this is pointless for you as all your wc gear can't be used with this alu setup. Even w/o adding a mixed metal part, you still have to deal with the eventual corrosion that will happen. It happens in all loops to some extent, mixed metals, contaminants, etc. but in an alu loop its a definite. And lol at the CLC comment by 2cents, as most CLC suck and eventually die. Hmm, I suppose this alu setup will be a pro for mobile/lan rigs or when not building a tank or avoiding the weight.
     
  8. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    see my last post.
    this is for people with nothing and on a budget. better than clc. what else would you need if your gpu and cpu are already cooled?
     
  9. Gman1979

    Gman1979 Gawd

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    $500 for a basic loop? I managed to build mine for a hair less than $300 without cutting any real corners (d5, 2x120 50mm thick copper rad whose brand evades my memory atm, already owned the fans). The only thing I did cut corners on was the tubing, and I quickly fixed that mistake after noticing some leeching buildup in the res a couple weeks later. But it just seems counter intuitive to wish to use aluminum in a cooling loop. it's like leaving extra headroom on the table to save a few bucks, and if that's the goal then air cooling could save even more so...
     
  10. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    yes you can coble together something cheap. you saved money on fans and cheap hose but did you have a full cover waterblock and back plate for the gpu? those are $180+. the EK 240 kit is cpu only and is $410 so add another $180 for gpu block and back plate plus more for fittings and tube....

    edit: oh and the gpu block/plate are compatible with gtx 1060-1080ti and titan
     
  11. thesmokingman

    thesmokingman [H]ardness Supreme

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    Built this for my nephew last year for chump change. Almost every part was 50 bucks or less, gpu block ancient 7970 free, I have like 2-3 more sitting here. I could get it under 250 if I did it w/o the qdc and compressions obviously. The great thing about this is that each part has real value, that makes it worth keeping. And obviously he can build from there and grow it as he upgrades.

    Fundamentally alu seems like a dead end. What are you going to do invest in more alu parts?
     
  12. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex Gawd

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    Looks really good to me. Maybe aluminum parts will become a bit more accessible, and expansion options will start being available.

    Protip to all ya haters: dissimilar metal corrosion only occurs with dissimilar metals. EK's rig here is all aluminum, right down to the fittings. Yeah, compatibility with other parts isn't great, but hey; if you don't mind being brand-locked, and EK makes the parts available, that puts custom watercooling at a far more affordable price point, which is good for us all-copper snobs too. Sure, I'll never buy one for my rig, but that's just because I'm already swimming in copper parts.
     
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  13. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    exactly.
    "bringing water cooling to the masses"
     
  14. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    cobbling together parts you had doesn't equal someone build their first system without a cache of parts to grab from. and the typical full cover gpu blocks are only good for one gpu. this kit covers a huge selection of 1060s to titans. nobody has done that before.
     
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  15. thesmokingman

    thesmokingman [H]ardness Supreme

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    Omg, wtf you work for EK or something? The post was meant to show that yea, you can cobble together a cheap loop. I wasn't competing against the alu kit per say, but it is still redonkulous to put noobs and alu together.
     
  16. Gman1979

    Gman1979 Gawd

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    If you spent anywhere close to enough money on the GPU to warrant water cooling it at all, why would you then cheap out on the block? If you're forced to do so, then you never actually had the budget to do so properly and should just save more or be way more realistic. Water cooling a GPU is something that's only really worth the hassle in a few usage cases:
    1) you wish to push the performance limits of the GPU beyond what air cooling can offer
    2) you have a small form factor pc with inadequate room for proper air cooling of a high end gpu
    3) you want to dump your GPU heat outside of your play space (rad mounted in window with fans blowing outward for example).

    I just don't trust EK to lead the way on this after the nickle issues with some of their previous products.
     
  17. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    no I don't work for ek, I'm just countering everything you guys seem to find wrong with this kit. its not bad for a noob when they get everything they need without worrying about mixing parts.
     
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  18. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    theres no coating and everything is the same material. this is built for noobs or budget minded people.
     
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  19. Gman1979

    Gman1979 Gawd

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    Built for noobs? That's a problem right there as they may not know enough to prevent them from expanding such a loop with copper parts. Did you invest in aluminum futures this morning or something? If someone is willing to put up EK level money, I don't think they're going to be budget shopping. Just because EK makes it doesn't change the fact it seems like just as poor a choice of components as the aluminum junk WC kits on Ebay.
     
  20. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    its ek quality not ebay quality. what expansion? it covers the gpu and cpu. what else do you need? want add a second gpu get another of the same gpu block, not that hard.
    have you watch the video yet? jay's a wc snob and even he's impressed with it. got to get past the "everything must be copper" idea.
    no I don't have alu stock just trying to show a good bang for buck alternative other than used parts.
    try and look at it objectively...
     
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  21. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex Gawd

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    Well, y'know. It's not like EK put giant yellow warning labels on every component in their kit telling you not to mix them with copper parts or anyth-... oh wait.
     
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  22. Gman1979

    Gman1979 Gawd

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    Yeah, sorry, but the "everything must be copper" standard came about through much trial and error back when none of our WC gear was even offered for this purpose. Maybe the younger hobbist weren't around to witness all the teeth cutting back then, but those of us that were would rather go piss into the wind than build a loop with aluminum blocks. And just because someone is a "snob" about something doesn't make them correct.
     
  23. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    ive "been there, done that" with the whole growing pains of pc WCing, car rads, fish pumps, you name it. this is still a really good bang for buck whether you can admit it or not. no mixed metals, nothing to worry about.
    and yes being a snob doesn't always make you correct but that's beside the point.
     
  24. Gman1979

    Gman1979 Gawd

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    It just seems like a disservice to the enthusiast community to be lowering our expectations and performance requirements instead of constantly pushing for better performance at lower costs. Think EK really incurs enough of a materials cost difference between aluminum and copper to justify the price difference between the two products? Hell no they don't. They would still be making a profit selling the copper blocks for $50 but they choose not to. Why lower your standards to encourage their greed instead of demanding more for your money?
     
  25. yyv_146

    yyv_146 [H]Lite

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    Not really. My guess is that most people build their rigs and forget about it. Some cases take well to building a loop vs open airflow. Plus EK may make parts available in the future. With a 360 rad plus new gpu blocks, you can be set for a while on aluminum parts.
     
  26. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    its obviously not built for the high end enthusiasts, its still a viable options for noobs or people on a budget. no it wont give you the absolute best performance but it will give you good performance for a lot less money.
     
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  27. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex Gawd

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    What? Did I miss something? Are EK discontinuing all their copper blocks in favor of aluminum?
     
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  28. RazorWind

    RazorWind 2[H]4U

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    Say what? Copper radiators haven't been used in vehicles for like, decades. Aluminum is the go-to these days because it's inexpensive and conducts heat well enough, but most importantly, the engine is made of aluminum as well, which simplifies the chemistry required for the coolant. The difference in performance between aluminum and copper, in an auto application, is not enough to justify all the relative disadvantages that copper has.

    I'd be interested to see a fully aluminum loop. Especially if it were possible to buy the parts individually as well, a cheaper alternative to the fancy schmancy copper ones would be kickass. It looks like EK is currently only selling kits.
     
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  29. BlueFireIce

    BlueFireIce [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yep, very few cars use anything copper in the cooling system anymore. Aluminum rads with plastic end tanks. There is without a doubt a difference is cooling, however the weight savings is huge between the two, and you can make the radiator thicker and cool the same while being lighter still.

    Funny enough, aluminum rads in cars today have a longer life than those or the copper/brass days. They also tend to cool the same, as the tubes can be made larger due to being a stronger metal than copper/brass and don't have any need for brazing, which is actually a point of corrosion, and lowers thermal transfer. So you lose weight, gain strength and reduce price. I am not sure how old everyone is here, but back in the day and on a number of classic cars we used to build where the owner wanted copper/brass, the amount of radiator repairs due to rock damage use to be much more common, today it is quiet rare in comparison.

    Now, for a loop like this, you will need fully aluminum everything, but that's always the case, you always want as few dissimilar metals as possible in anything that can create a corrosion cell. Assuming a proper setup and all aluminum parts, I would expect the system to perform and last quite well.
     
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  30. Gman1979

    Gman1979 Gawd

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    So my car radiator analogy was obvious outdated (I only tend to work on older cars these days). I still think even considering using aluminum for a full coverage GPU block, given the price range of GPUs worth the effort, is just savage (like eating caviar with your hands savage, not day after random crazy awesome hook up savage)
     
  31. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex Gawd

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    The kit fits Titans and 1080tis...

    ... Have you watched the video yet?
     
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  32. Gman1979

    Gman1979 Gawd

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    See my point about the cost of the GPU you wish to cool making the price savings of settling for aluminum seem a bit odd? That was prompted by the video. If you're already stumping up the money for a 1080Ti or Titan, it would seem like a bit of a poser move to then go cheap on the block. "Oh look, I spent half a house payment on this face melting GPU then saved less than a few beers at a ball game on this budget block for it that locks me into one vendor of parts for the loop because I can't just use the standard copper parts with it". It will technically work, but you'll end up feeling dirty after the love affair with saving a few dollars ends.

    Using aluminum full coverage GPU blocks should result in the revocation of your man credentials, just like drinking Bud Light by choice. :banghead:
     
  33. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex Gawd

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    If you say so, man. What I see is EK bringing the options to a lower cost market. I see you, a Lexus owner, getting mad about Toyota.

    Of course aluminum isn't as good as copper. Of course it has drawbacks. But hey, closed loop coolers aren't as good as custom loops either; that hasn't stopped them from being immensely popular, and shoveling revenue to companies that ALSO make the stuff snobs like us go after.
     
  34. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    give me a fucking break
    exactly
    this I can agree with, reg and light, hell any bud beer is fucking gross.
     
  35. Gman1979

    Gman1979 Gawd

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    I appreciate that you would refer to me as a Lexus owner in that comparison, but the only way I'd drive a Lexus was as a way to make use of a lonely Supra engine Lol. I've just gotten more patient and picky about my hardware choices and investments as I've gotten older, and I've have some really irritating experiences with aluminum as a material. If you wish to crucify me for feeling you should pick the best materials when customizing already expensive components then so be it, but after all my years in the hobby it just feels wrong to even bother water cooling a functional card that doesn't even really need it unless you're out to push the envelope already and willing to chase after a few degrees of extra performance headroom that's so easily gained just by a materials choice.

    Maybe I came across as snobbish about it, but in reality I'm the type of person who will straight butcher a case with an off brand dremel type tool to clearance something I should just get a better suited case for. When I actually feel compelled to invest my drinking/fishing/non essential money into something it only seems to make sense to not skimp on it.

    Using zip ties to mount fans, pumps, res I can appreciate as there's essentially no real cash outlay there. Spending Titan or Ti money then trying to suddenly get frugal just does not compute for me these days even if I would have wasted money on something like this when I was younger and all about the mostest for the leastest. Hobbist evolve just as their hobby does over time but some things just kind of get burned into our memories over time. Aluminum will always seem like a sub par choice to me given all the years spent avoiding it for cooling applications.
     
  36. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex Gawd

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    Hey man, I'm not trying to crucify anyone about the way they spend their money. I'm not trying to convince you to buy one of these things.

    I just think it's really cool that EK is reaching to a lower market with a low-cost alternative. It means more people get to experience the joy of watercooling.

    I just don't want guys like you, who maybe have perfectly valid reasons from personal experience to eschew aluminium altogether, going around saying stuff like "aluminum sucks period get over it buy copper or don't buy." The watercooling community doesn't need gatekeepers. EK's thought of everything on this one, and the last thing watercooling newbies need is more confusion and misinformation.
     
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  37. Gman1979

    Gman1979 Gawd

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    We do seem to have some common ground here at least. I commented above how I took issue with this being something someone new to water cooling could get drawn into buying just based on price. That came from it just seeming inevitable that at least some people would be confused or lead down a dead end path if they were to buy into an all aluminum loop just based on the price difference compared with a similar copper equipped loop aimed at beginners. I delayed building my latest loop just so I could invest in components I expect to be able to reuse a few times. Because I have copper blocks and rads, I can just introduce new editions to the loop as desired or needed. But if I am locked in to a vendor specific aluminum set up, I'm at their mercy in regard to future upgrades being developed for specific GPUs, MBs, CPUs and rad changes. I guess you could say I feel the introduction of this in the guise of custom water cooling looks destined to muddy the waters a bit.

    Now where this thing would seem to make way more sense is in some sort of lower priced AIO loop that can be expanded with these full coverage blocks to add GPU cooling you just won't get from a H60 with a NXZT bracket mounting. There's a large price gap between the closed loop AIOs and the expandable copper AIOs on the market where this looks like it could nicely slot into. I find it less objectionable in that sort of proposal as it seems to fill in a market gap where people know they're leaving some performance on the table in return for much greater simplicity and most of the more common AIOs already make use of aluminum. I griped about them using aluminum when AIOs first started hitting the market in force as well, mainly because high end air cooling still performed better than what we saw with those early AIOs and the performance difference was such that using copper instead would have reversed that result.

    When you go with a custom loop, you also have to accept a bit of additional risks to your equipment due to potential leaks. Some people may not be very concerned with the additional risks, but it's something I consider when deciding if I want to actually go through with a custom loop for a project. The decision usually comes down to how much of a potential performance boost will I get in return for my time, effort, and money. This may not apply directly to a full cover GPU block, but in the CPU realm we have seen processors in the very recent past (mostly from AMD) that seemed to crap themselves while overclocking if you exceeded a pretty predictable, narrow temperature limit. Two to three degrees Celcius was enough to often be the difference between stability and instability when overclocking. I'd rather have some extra built in headroom just to cover for this possibility if I'm going through the effort of doing this at all.
     
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  38. pendragon1

    pendragon1 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    if the alu gpu block is keeping the 1080ti at ~50C with the oc'd cpu in the same loop and on a 240 rad it must be at least decent.

    exactly. its a very good bang for buck compared to aios and highend custom.
     
  39. VanGoghComplex

    VanGoghComplex Gawd

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    Cheers, both you guys.

    This product isn't for me. Doesn't seem like it's for either of you either. I'm still happy EK is making it.

    I really hope they sell the pieces individually someday. There's a selfish motivation for this: I have... like... SO MANY AIO coolers laying around with aluminum radiators, just waiting for an all-aluminum custom loop to hoist them past their anemic pump/block abominations and onward to greatness. XD
     
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  40. yyv_146

    yyv_146 [H]Lite

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    A used Titan XP ( the 2016 one) is $700 ish. A used 1080 is $450 or less. I can spec a for-gaming-only PC with a 1080 and an i5 for less than $1,500. IMO a $250 CLC system is really nice at this price range.