EA trying to rename Loot Boxes

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Frraksurred, Jun 20, 2019.

  1. Frraksurred

    Frraksurred 2[H]4U

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    I typically avoid this topic because it has had such a negative effect on game development that it infuriates me. I'm making an exception today. More people need get vocal about this issue, especially after this latest stunt.

     
  2. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    How about EA executives get paid in loot boxes without them knowing the formula behind it :)
    And if they don't like it we just change the name to whatever we think will justify another go with a different name and it becomes _not_ loot boxes any more but does the same thing.
     
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  3. bigdogchris

    bigdogchris [H]ard as it Gets

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    Jim started to make a lot of sense around the 7 minute mark.

    Until now I always looked at loot boxes as like baseball card packs. But he makes good points about how it's not the same thing as that type of "surprise".
     
  4. DrLobotomy

    DrLobotomy [H]ardness Supreme

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    My opinion is that if a company puts something out there for sale and people buy it then there is no issue. Don't want to buy it then don't.

    If you feel somehow screwed because someone got better weapons/shields/wtf ever, then just think of the game as a harder to play game until you earn your lootie boxes the hard way or save up $2.49.

    Everyone knows that feeling of setting the game on normal difficulty then getting mad at your self because you should have played on a harder setting anyway cuz you blew right through the game.
     
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  5. Krenum

    Krenum [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Its easy for an adult to rationalize that point of view. But loot boxes aren't made for adults, they are made for kids who have yet to have any sort of real world experience or concept of money / earning money and are also prone to FOMO.

    for companies like EA, FOMO = Cash Money.
     
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  6. Ebernanut

    Ebernanut Gawd

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    We can call them surprise financial incentives because everyone likes surprises. That EA spokesperson convinced me of that with her argument that even kids like surprises that cost money, after all we all know how financially savvy kids are.
     
  7. MrGuvernment

    MrGuvernment [H]ard as it Gets

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    So then parents should not be giving "kids" access to a payment method and teach their kids about this crap...
     
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  8. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger [H]ard as it Gets

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    This. A kid can't get a credit card without the parent giving it to them, and even then they could enable parental controls and be responsible.
     
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  9. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    And these companies developed tool that change the difficult and other thing to try and incentives and push people towards spending money. ES has a patent for such a thing already. How about their sports game that are impossible to win online w/o buying loot boxes? Making game super grindy just so you spend the few dollars to get what you want instead of spending 40 hours and still not get it. All on top of already asking $60 for the game to begin with. How do you believe these predatory actions are acceptable? So called AAA game have turn to garbage over this crap.
     
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  10. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger [H]ard as it Gets

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    That's called p2w. Smart people ignore games like that altogether.
     
  11. DrLobotomy

    DrLobotomy [H]ardness Supreme

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    Again, no one is making you purchase it.

    If you think when you buy a $320,000 Lambo and you think there are no maint costs and it should get 30 MGP then get mad when that isn't true that the nice folks at the Lambo store give a fuck?

    Ignorance is bliss.
     
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  12. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    And those people ruin it for the rest of us.
     
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  13. Krenum

    Krenum [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yes they should but probably don't. Why teach kids the value of a dollar when Facebook can tell you what to buy?!
     
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  14. Frraksurred

    Frraksurred 2[H]4U

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    The problem with this the effect it has on game development. Games get built around their money making scheme instead of being built as "the best game we can make" and relying on its quality to make sales. The trend we've seen over the last 10 years has been progressively more lazy game making; games built to promote lootbox sales instead of good game mechanics, story, etc. You can say adults should have the willpower to not succumb to predatory monetary practices, but in my exprience, we do not. As an increasingly isolated society, with depression, loneliness, boredom, etc growing; many cope by spending money they shouldn't. Most know better, and you are right, we are responsible for our own actions, but Publishers should be responsible for their actions too, including not taking advantage of human vulnerabilities. Society and games, will both be better for it (not "all better" by any means, but healthier).
     
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  15. DrLobotomy

    DrLobotomy [H]ardness Supreme

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    Capitalism and greed have no use for responsible actions. This world has 50,000,000 ways of screwing yourself up. Picking one of the most inane ones is still a choice the individual makes.

    It always starts out with folks wanting to do something for the love whether it is Led Zeppelin or DOOM. Once that money shows up, others seep in and change things because of jealousness and greed and then the band breaks up and the game creator moves on to these ways of making even more money(they think).
     
  16. KazeoHin

    KazeoHin [H]ardness Supreme

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    The issue I have with the loot box thing has nothing to do with the 'save the children' or 'this is gambling' crowd. My experience is simply that games without these randomized, monetized reward systems (loot box mechanics) are a far better experience than those games with them.

    So I don't want these mechanics in games, because I like good games. When I find out that loot boxes will end up in a game I MAY have interest in, I end up feeling a bit sad that that game that had a twinkle of potential now is no longer on my wishlist.

    people say "if you don't like them, don't buy them" and I agree. I don't buy them, and I've NEVER spent a single penny on a randomized reward in a game, and I generally WON'T buy a game if it uses such monetization. But that doesn't make my disappointment any less real: especially when that game was next in a series I love.
     
  17. Frraksurred

    Frraksurred 2[H]4U

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    I don't disagree with any of that, but we can't throw the onus on one party alone and say "you have to be responsible, the other party can do whatever it wants". Both parties should be responsible for their actions. I have to vote with my wallet, and (unless I want Goverment oversight) I have to object to predatory business practices in any lawful means possible... unless I just want to helplessly watch it spiral even more out of control.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  18. DrLobotomy

    DrLobotomy [H]ardness Supreme

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    Now I agree with what you are saying for sure. I totally haven't spent a nickel on any game with loot boxes or even expansion packs (unless all bundled in a later cheaper version), and I DAMN sure hadn't SUBSCRIBED to any game (which is my personal most hated).

    I came from the time when you buy a game and then the community creates the content to further the fun and variety.

    Nevertheless our feelings get no consideration and we just have to boycott these titles/developers/publishers.
     
  19. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

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    Unfortunately, most people gamers today are instant gratification, low attention span, poorly raised sheep and the gaming industry reflects that. It's exactly as we deserve it to be. Thank god for several lifetimes worth of back catalog.
     
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  20. zamardii12

    zamardii12 2[H]4U

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    I gotta call bullshit on something...

    "Loot boxes are targeted at kids." Bullshit. Your frontal cortex is not fully developed until you're like 25 or something. Kids/teens require and need direction. People need to be taught and shown what to do and what not to do... not to mention what the consequences are. If your kid is spending a shit ton of money on your card buying in-game shit then that is entirely the parents' fault for not being active enough in what the kid is doing. Not to mention that the card is attached to the account... parental controls can be implemented, you can enforce screen time, and you can remove your payment method from literally any online account and still be able to use said account. So what I am saying is that if parents were doing their parental duties and being PROACTIVE in their kids' online lives then loot-boxes would never have become a problem to begin with.

    I do think that in-game purchases should be cosmetic only, but I don't care about that either. Example is that when I bought my GTX 1080ti last year I got 3 games for free including Ghost Recon Wildlands. Also I had gotten a Xbox so I can pay co-op with a buddy of mine, but all the weapons and attachments I earned by playing on the PC I wanted on the Xbox so I just ended up buying them on the Xbox. I didn't care... i'm an adult and I make my own money and I should be able to buy what I want with my money. Anyone who lives at home and doesn't have their own money/job should not have access to payment methods of guardians in online marketplaces.
     
  21. Cypher-

    Cypher- [H]ard|Gawd

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    Jesus Christ, the amount of people defending loot boxes and/or blaming the parents is ridiculous. I guess when I was 16 and started working I should have given every dime I made directly to my parents and let them give me the money I earned when they approved it rather than getting a checking account.

    There is a fucking reason kids cant walk into a casino and start pulling slot machine handles when they are under age, but having loot boxes which is close enough, implemented in games with a T rating (13+) and having kids play them for years regardless if they can afford buying them is ok? Are we forgetting that you earn loot boxes for free so you get hooked on that feeling of getting something good out of them? They are conditioning kids from a young age to want loot boxes regardless if they can buy them or not. Sure, I guess you can blame mom and dad for letting them play a game that has loot boxes.

    As an adult I can see that this shit is bad for kids, but honestly for me I just want them out of games because they are a terrible mechanic. DLC is fucking terrible too. DLC was when I owned Half-Life and downloaded the Counter-Strike or TFC mod. Or custom skins for my Counter-Strike game. Then some fuckboy at a company decided they can release half of a game, call the rest of it DLC, and charge us for it. And somehow people were OK with this happening. It's disgusting.

    The only thing companies like EA are concerned about is how to take your money. I get it, as a business that should be your goal. Except EA said fuck ethics and fuck the consumer. I guess 'make good games' isn't a practical business model anymore. How anyone who is aware of what they are doing continues to buy anything they offer blows my mind.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  22. MavericK

    MavericK Zero Cool

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    Fuck EA.

    All that needs to be said, really.
     
  23. Gabe3

    Gabe3 2[H]4U

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    why doesn't EA take epic's approach with fortnite. make ingame currency. make store with the exact items you're selling. make boat loads of money.
     
  24. bigdogchris

    bigdogchris [H]ard as it Gets

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    Epic just said they don't make money from people playing Fortnite.

    :whistle:
     
  25. Gabe3

    Gabe3 2[H]4U

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    I had to look up the article

    "Epic made $2.4bn from Fortnite during 2018, the most annual revenue of any game in history."

    so epic paid their employees 2.4bn, or thats how much it costs to run the servers or something? lol
     
  26. bigdogchris

    bigdogchris [H]ard as it Gets

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    Epic saying they don't make money from Fornite is as stupid as EA calling lootboxes "Surprise Mechanics".

    They don't make money from people playing it, they just make money from people buying items. Apparently there is a distinction to them. It's like saying you don't make money by going to work, you make money by your employer cutting you a check every week.
     
  27. zamardii12

    zamardii12 2[H]4U

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    If you make your own money then spend it how you want. If you are 16 and make your own money and want to spend it on loot boxes, then spend it on loot boxes. I can think of a lot of stupid shit I spent my money on well into my 20s. If you lose money buying these stupid loot boxes that is YOUR money then that's is your problem and that's a lesson learned.

    Here is the thing... you don't understand the point of choice and consequence here. If you are young enough to spend money on a loot box, but too young to do it with your own money and the kid has the means of doing it then that's the parents' fault. If you are young and say you're working at Chick Fil A part time at 15 years old and want to spend your money that you earn on loot boxes then that's your choice. If the kid runs out of money and feels like they didn't get anywhere near what they though they would for the money then that's their problem. Perhaps they'll learn to not do dumb shit with their money.

    I want to also want to underline a point here... some people are more susceptible to the gambling mentality than others. Just because a kid spends $20 on some loot boxes in their favorite game using their own money, doesn't mean they're going to turn into a gambling addict. Either you learn the merits of earning your way forward through your own skills and talents, or you choose to attempt to buy your way forward then that's a life lesson in-of-itself. Idk about you guys but regardless if I wanted to spend my own money when I was younger or not, my parents would always criticize me for the bullshit I spent my money on. "repulloo, why do you need a new Nintendo? Don't you already have a Nintendo?" "Yeah mom, but this Nintendo is 16 bit!" My parents didn't understand the difference... they thought what I was doing was fucking stupid and told me so.

    I honestly get what people are so upset about, but I don't believe attention is being entirely focused on the correct thing here. In my mind all I hear is "Loot-boxes turned me into a gambling addict, or EA turned me into a gambler when I was 15..." Oh really? You want EA parenting your kids? You think companies should be responsible for the content your children consume? Do you have any fucking idea how many other games there are out there that don't have loot boxes, and that at the very least have parental controls in place that allow that shit to be blocked? Who should enforce these things? I could say to my 16 year old kid it's a waste of money... I could say that buying a loot-box is just paying for better outcomes that doesn't reflect real life... but it's THEIR money they worked to earn so I can say only so much until you have to let fate take over, and at the end of the day we have all heard someone in our lives tell us that what we want to spend our money on is stupid.

    Funny story... I as a 32 year old got sucked into a game on my phone that I probably spent $100 on that I felt really stupid about, but because I have money and I was having fun I didn't care about spending $5 here and $10 there. I felt stupid afterwords when I realized what I did, and I haven't done it since. It was the first and last time that will happen.

    The whole argument to me is nonsense. Be active in the life of the people these loot-boxes are supposedly targeting and do your best to advise against and/or control the content in your household. I really don't think this is so hard.
     
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  28. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    You are missing the point why we hate it. Yes it is people choice but those choices are ruining gaming for the rest of us. These companies are feeding off human weakness. Creating bullshit mechanics that hinder the gaming experience. They hire physiologist to figure out how to better manipulate people. They have a patent for tech that is design to alter the game you are playing to try and steer your towards paying for MT. Shit like this need to gtfo. Do you work for EA or hold stock? How do you not see how negatively this effects gaming industry wise. This is not acceptable.
     
  29. Cypher-

    Cypher- [H]ard|Gawd

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    My point was that a kid can absolutely have access to money and buy loot boxes without his parents knowing. It's one thing if a kid comes home with something physical, but unless a parent is watching every second of gaming a kid is doing or monitoring statements they probably have no idea they are throwing money at digital items. I'm sure if I asked my parents what a loot box is they would have absolutely no idea. As a kid I sure as hell wouldn't be like "Hey mom I'm about to buy some loot boxes, is that cool?" I would just do it.

    I think you are missing the point. There are federal laws preventing kids from gambling. Loot boxes are essentially the equivalent of playing a slot machine. You put money in and hope for something good to come out. If you don't "win" you put more money in to keep trying. You have now brought the gambling mindset to kids. I'm not trying to say every kid who buys a loot box is going to be a gambling addict, but if it happened enough for there to be laws against kids gambling, maybe just maybe this is an issue as well.

    As far as who is controlling content, that is entirely up to the parents. The problem is that a parent can look at an ESRB rating and see violence/nudity/drugs or whatever and easily know that their kid shouldn't be playing a game. Battlefront II is rated T, so they look at that and think "oh, my 14 year old can play this" and have absolutely no idea that there is a gambling simulator built into it. Maybe the parent should do their research. Maybe the ESRB should have a label about it. Maybe companies should stop trying to use psychological manipulation as a business model...
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
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  30. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

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    So, we shouldn't be calling people out on their stupidity, but corporations for not doing the moral thing? Good luck with that. Well, with either, but still...
     
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  31. jonneymendoza

    jonneymendoza [H]ardness Supreme

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    Then the kid gets bullied in school/pressuraised because he or she is the only kid who doesnt have the latest Shield/weapon.

    Blame sociaty
     
  32. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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  33. Gabe3

    Gabe3 2[H]4U

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    yeah the game hit its peak sometime last year. its not casual friendly game anymore, the casual players were the ones making epic the most money probably. then epic put in the 100 million prize pool tournament that ended up stressing out alot of the good players enough that they don't really have fun playing anymore. plus epic has put in so many building "courses" to train your self to build and edit faster, and aiming ones too. this is going to make the players that do them better. and the ones that don't get left behind. creating more of a skill gap. epic is just shooting themselves in the foot.
     
  34. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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  35. cjcox

    cjcox [H]ard|Gawd

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    Name choices so far. For male players: "Super Dragon Stud Mighty Power Box" For female players: "Toxic Masculinity Eliminator Box"
     
  36. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    2k games just added unskippable ads before every game in NBA19. There is no end to the greedy and boggles my mind how they get away with it. These so called AAA game companies need to burn.
     
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  37. MrGuvernment

    MrGuvernment [H]ard as it Gets

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    Or teach your kids you kick other kids asses and that people who judge you based on what you own or have in a game are worthless people in the end.
     
  38. bigdogchris

    bigdogchris [H]ard as it Gets

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    Today Jim has continued his EA takedown.

     
  39. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    I am still holding out for a surprise bankruptcy for EA still.
     
  40. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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