It will pick up again when Charlie from theinq finishes porting DX10 to WinXP and then writes the non-VDDM drivers for XP.
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DX10 is do-able on Windows XP
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heatlesssun
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What GPU are you using and when did you last use Vista? I think that at least for a single card (using an 8800 Ultra) the drivers are solid now, have been for a couple of months now.
Drivers were no doubt the biggest kock against Vista at release, but the landscape is FAR better than six months ago, no real supprise there, other than why so many drivers from so many were so bad. But then again, drivers, espcially GPU drivers, are vey complex, so it does take time.
I still have XP machines for backwards compatiablity and that's still what most in the world are using (I'm a software developer so its necessary) but my main personal machines, my main desktop and my tablet are running Vista now, and its just better than XP, espcially for a laptop, hibernation and sleep are FAR more stable.
I would love to see a source on that...
OpenGL != DX
They're completely different libraries. Yes, you can probably do everything you can in DX10 with OpenGL, but if the game isn't written for OpenGL (which for some stupid reason most of them aren't
), you can't use the OpenGL features. The thing about DX10 is the WAY it does hardware calls, which is completely different from previous versions and incompatable with everything but Vista. WHAT it can do is easily done with OpenGL and probably with modification DX9, but the issue with porting it is HOW it does what it does.Until game manufacturers get their shit together and start using the available, excellent open standard, instead of a stupid proprietary one, we'll be stuck in this debate for practically every Windows release from here to forever, and gaming on Linux/MacOS will forever suck
Miscommunication
Gawd
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Yes, I forsee that we will be forever "stuck", I don't see what all the hoop-lah is about, but yeah gaming on linux will continue to suck, same goes for macs (although emulation will always be far behind new DX versions at first).
Shottah_king
Gawd
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I really don't see the problem with Vista. I've been using it for a quite a while and I done benches and compared Vista to XP and saw no noticable performance decreases or increases. WIC with directx 10 plays awesome on my machine..
Miscommunication
Gawd
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How is that game Shottah? I whimped out and didn't install it (still got a key lol) and id are idiots for using the Q4 (old engine, been exploited) engine for QW. The beta just came out a month or so ago and there's aimbots/wallhacks out already. It's what they get, the Wolfenstein Enemy Territory community is rampant with aimbots and it only got worse when the idiots decided to release the source code. Any dev. team who releases source code for their games deserve to be nuked. All they have to do is provide the needed tools such as map editors and some type of MOD studio and that's it. Releasing source code is just asking for hacks. /rant
I have also seen videos of WiC using the latest beta drivers on an 8800GTX/S and it is smooth and lovely. Almost reminds me of Crysis videos...but different
.heatlesssun
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OpenGL is already hear and open. The API is not the issue. Games are exspensive to make. The hardware is also exspensive. The reason for the condition Linux/Mac gaming has nothing to do with the API, it has to do with plain old economics.
There simply aren't enough Linux PC's with people who actually BUY software. Remember, one of the main points of Linux is free software. If you won't buy the OS, why would you buy games?
Problem with the Mac, not enough users with hardware for hardcore gaming.
I spend thosands a year on hardware and software on average, because every two years I'll speed $3000+ on the latest and greatest and hardware, with one of the goals being able to play the latest games in all of their glory.
Linux users don't do that (at least not for a Linux environment, I run Ubuntu on a PC, but I'll never spend $3000 to run Linux and Linux software, at least now). And Mac user's don't either. In fact, only a very slim percentage of Windows PC uers do it, but with hundreds of millions of Winodws PC users, even 1% of that market is still millions of users.
There simply aren't enough Linux PC's with people who actually BUY software. Remember, one of the main points of Linux is free software. If you won't buy the OS, why would you buy games?
Problem with the Mac, not enough users with hardware for hardcore gaming.
I spend thosands a year on hardware and software on average, because every two years I'll speed $3000+ on the latest and greatest and hardware, with one of the goals being able to play the latest games in all of their glory.
Linux users don't do that (at least not for a Linux environment, I run Ubuntu on a PC, but I'll never spend $3000 to run Linux and Linux software, at least now). And Mac user's don't either. In fact, only a very slim percentage of Windows PC uers do it, but with hundreds of millions of Winodws PC users, even 1% of that market is still millions of users.
I think this is a chicken or the egg problem though. I know personally that I WANT to run Linux (Ubuntu 7.04 x64 specifically), but the fact that no software supports it is preventing me. However, manufacturers won't make software for it because no one uses it. Someone needs to stand up and actually make linux software. Dell took a major step selling computers with Ubuntu preinstalled, maybe now we just need some software companies to stand up and do the same.
And, yes, the API does matter. Linux (or at least some distros) support OpenGL gaming natively, just like Windows supports DX gaming natively. The problem is 90%+ of games are written ONLY for DX, with no OpenGL support. So yes, the API is the problem, at least in terms of Linux.
And finally, the fact that I "don't want" to pay for the OS has no idication on my willingness to buy software. I'll buy software for an open source OS if it works, because it works and the Open Source alternatives tend to suck (the GIMP, anyone?)
And, yes, the API does matter. Linux (or at least some distros) support OpenGL gaming natively, just like Windows supports DX gaming natively. The problem is 90%+ of games are written ONLY for DX, with no OpenGL support. So yes, the API is the problem, at least in terms of Linux.
And finally, the fact that I "don't want" to pay for the OS has no idication on my willingness to buy software. I'll buy software for an open source OS if it works, because it works and the Open Source alternatives tend to suck (the GIMP, anyone?)
I waited 6 months after Vista was RTM before I decided to load it on my main machine. I used Vista Ultimate since I got a free key from Microsoft. I was excited about DX10 and the new, great games that would be coming out real soon. I even bought a pair of 8800GTXs and used them in SLI on my nForce 680i motherboard. Yes, I was ready for all the games to hit the shelves.
Then reality set it. Not only are games not going to be available for DX10 for about a year (there will be a trickle of 3rd rate titles that will come out before Crysis becomes available) but the NVIDIA drivers don't work hardly at all with SLI.
I enjoyed using Vista and look forward to going back to it. But I reverted my main OS back to XP SP2 and will probably stay on this platform until NVIDIA gets their shit together. I sure hope that time is sooner rather than later.
Oh, a final note. Vista is the first Microsoft "learning" OS. This is why it uses so much memory. It learns what programs you run and what data you need and stores either the data itself or pointers to the data right in memory. Once it learns what you do and keeps track of your working environment, things can really speed up. Read up on ReadyBoost. It's a USB flash memory concept that allows this data to be stored in a very fast USB device instead of in main memory. If you use 1GB of memory or less in Vista, this is the only way to keep the environment responsive.
Then reality set it. Not only are games not going to be available for DX10 for about a year (there will be a trickle of 3rd rate titles that will come out before Crysis becomes available) but the NVIDIA drivers don't work hardly at all with SLI.
I enjoyed using Vista and look forward to going back to it. But I reverted my main OS back to XP SP2 and will probably stay on this platform until NVIDIA gets their shit together. I sure hope that time is sooner rather than later.
Oh, a final note. Vista is the first Microsoft "learning" OS. This is why it uses so much memory. It learns what programs you run and what data you need and stores either the data itself or pointers to the data right in memory. Once it learns what you do and keeps track of your working environment, things can really speed up. Read up on ReadyBoost. It's a USB flash memory concept that allows this data to be stored in a very fast USB device instead of in main memory. If you use 1GB of memory or less in Vista, this is the only way to keep the environment responsive.
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Technically, there are Linux distributions that aren't free and that people would pay for. For that matter, there are programs that aren't free for Linux that people pay for(Cedega, crossover, some games, skype(The service), etc.). It's just that, one, people don't know enough about the available software for Linux and think it's hard to use; and two, because of this people don't use Linux and therefore the companies don't feel that there is a good enough reason to make stuff(Software and hardware alike) for Linux.
I don't think it would be that hard to start making games in OpenGL(Given, I don't know the language myself). It would give people a better way to compete with Microsoft since they have hardly any other way. At least that way gamers would have another option besides Windows when it comes to playing games. Then all we would have to do is get the business people(Which really don't have a reason to or not to switch, since there is pretty much everything that's on Windows also available on Linux) and the average user to like Linux or at least know about it and then there would be competition(Even if only a little bit).
Oh, and I find the GIMP to be just fine, although I'd rather use something like Paint.NET(But I can't since it uses .NET, that's another story though).
A "very fast USB device" will be at most 50MB/sec, compared to 6GB/sec for a Dual Channel DDR2-800 system? Not to mention the fact that ArsTechnica (or was it Anandtech?) did a performance comparison with ReadyBoost, and the results were the same or worse as without, and that makes your assertion rather hard to prove.
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You're assuming it was a replacement for or an extenstion to RAM when it's not. It's meant to speed up short I/O accesses when the system has to go out to the hard drive to find it. The near instant access time of solid state memory eliminates a few milliseconds from the time it takes to find the information. And in computers, a few miliseconds is an enternity. Ready boost stores frequently accessed data on the flash drive so that the system doesn't have to access the much slower hard drive.
heatlesssun
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I didnt say that there wasnt commercial Linux software, but for the mass consumer market, honestly, how much desktop Linux software is purchased yearly vs. Windows? Not close.
I just dont see the demand for Linux on the desktop top, not in numbers that would matter to a game developer.
Though however, as I said, it is a chicken-egg problem. I bet if there was more Linux software, we would see a [larger] market emerge. As it is, Linux to the average person is "that operating system [assuming they know what that is] for geeks with no easy-to-use software and that takes days to set up". Dell has taken a step in the right direction by promoting and selling it, but it's the software companies that have to make the first real move. Gaming could be a good breakout point for them, as gamers are always looking for the more efficient use of system resources that Linux could give.
heatlesssun
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Theres TONS of Linux software. Thats what most Linux gurus will tell you. In fact theyll tell you hands down that Linux is far superior to Windows in every way and that Microsoft is simply a convicted monopolist (which they make sound worse than a convicted murderer) using illegal and dirty tactics to keep their monopoly in order to bilk billions from stupid computer users.
Then you go try to find some decent Linux entertainment software, i.e. games and you end up play Tetris The Wrath of Shaka Kahn version.
Bottom line, desktop Linux is more of a solution in search of a problem than anything else. Im starting to love my Vista systems. Games are starting to run well with the newest nVidia drivers, Ive got drivers for all of my hardware thats solid (still looking for a Bluetooth fob that works well in Vista). My Media Center, though not much of an upgrade from XP, now works on my laptop tablets, and is solid, and the search (which is kind of ugly) is a must have for me now. Its a great app launcher.
Ill play with Linux from time to time, but theres just so much to keep up with on Windows, with Linux offering little in and of its self. Much of the cool FOSS is available for Windows like GIMP, OpenOffice, etc.
Desktop Linux Failure to Launch
Then you go try to find some decent Linux entertainment software, i.e. games and you end up play Tetris The Wrath of Shaka Kahn version.
Bottom line, desktop Linux is more of a solution in search of a problem than anything else. Im starting to love my Vista systems. Games are starting to run well with the newest nVidia drivers, Ive got drivers for all of my hardware thats solid (still looking for a Bluetooth fob that works well in Vista). My Media Center, though not much of an upgrade from XP, now works on my laptop tablets, and is solid, and the search (which is kind of ugly) is a must have for me now. Its a great app launcher.
Ill play with Linux from time to time, but theres just so much to keep up with on Windows, with Linux offering little in and of its self. Much of the cool FOSS is available for Windows like GIMP, OpenOffice, etc.
Desktop Linux Failure to Launch
PliotronX
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Oh man that's a great line
If only more games were OpenGL, widely supported 3D gaming would've been a real possibility. MS has quite a stranglehold with D3D.I'm also kinda starting to dig Vista, I just recognize a few teething issues (mainly drivers). MS' mistake was making XP good though, heh.
Speaking of drivers though, with the forgone virtualization, why did MS dump WDM? Would it have been possible to use XP drivers with Vista? Might've seen a more broad adoption rate if hardware makers didn't have to write new drivers AFAICS.
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What's that? Anyway, if you go here there are quite a few games that run natively on Linux and there are both commercial and free games. The commercial games are probably better(I haven't tried them myself, need a job first), but the free games there are pretty good as well. One, Nexuiz(Doesn't seem to be there, but I think it was at one time), is almost, if not, as good as Half-Life. Another fairly good game is called Tremulous-a fps/rts game that is really fun to play around in. I haven't actually played against anyone else in that game, but it seems like it would be fun. All these games run in OpenGL and wouldn't look any better running in D3D. There are lots of others, but that's an easy site to start off with. ^.^
all the css/1.6 people will still be using xp i bet lol unless they actually decide to upgrade thier pc's
Miscommunication
Gawd
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I've tinkered with linux enough in the past (2+yrs ago) and it's not too bad, but as for gaming, you're pretty much stuck with the few games that run natively in it if you want any real online play (4-5,000+ players). I know that there are "no-name" games, but it's really like going to Payless vs Footlocker or Finishline for shoes. Look-a-like games vs the name brand/known titles. People just aren't too keen for that type of thing ( I know I'm not).
To be frank, I always hated the mouse input scheme used in opengl games, the old and the latest. For me I can tell the difference only in FPS' (all I really play online). Either that or it's the responsiveness of those particular games I've had my experiences on. I really don't care, just which ever API brings me the best games overall, regardless of "potential". The only potential worth mentioning are the results of reality (which would be DX, oh well
).
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I don't think they're trying to be look-a-like games. Otherwise they would have made levels and items that look-a-like. The games look completely different, but the type of game is the same. That is what I was trying to say.
Miscommunication
Gawd
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I see what you're saying and I can see it now. However, unless a game gets popular, one would be stuck playing a game with a tiny community/presence vs something more known/played on Windows. It eventually comes down to that and thus dev. support for the platforms/OS/APIs and that's what we end up with (linux < Win for games). I actually miss using Redhat at and a few others ( I love RPMs!). Fedora Core (v3 and 4) got on my nerves though, ffs. Although I hear the latest (v6 I think) is better. Actually played woflenstein: ET on it, though the mouse input made me stick with windowsXP lol.
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Actually, Nexuiz seems pretty popular. Last time I played(A long time ago, because I've been changing a lot of stuff on my computer) there were quite a few people playing. The latest Fedora version is Fedora 7(No more core. x.x). It's fairly nice. I have it on my slow 'n' hot laptop. lol
I haven't played wolfenstein myself. Is it good?
I haven't played wolfenstein myself. Is it good?
ne0-reloaded
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just to post my two cents, but i like vista. im running it on a not so top of the line machine as my htpc and it works fine. it could use more ram but other than that its fast, all the drivers work the way they should, and its purdy
Miscommunication
Gawd
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Well I'm glad Fedora "Crapcore" has improved
. Wolfenstein : ET isn't a bad game on Linux platforms (many servers are still 'nixes, mostly Win though). I would suggest people to stay away from the game and it's community (wolfenstein) to be honest. Just a bunch of 14 yr olds (or those who act like it) and it's full of hackers like the CS shit; just on a much smaller scale, same ratio of BS though. I've played the game for 3 years, and it really got bad a couple months ago after id like idiots released the source code = flood of hacks. It was a fun game and I still play it a little bit. Quake Wars is the same thing, it's beta was just released last month and there's already a working aimbot and wallhack combo.I know hacking in general is inevitable, but wow it's just beta. Like Wolf: ET, QW continues to use an old-ass engine (Q4) that's long been exploited. ggs id. I really think the Quake engines are easier than others to hack, well that and HL/CS/Source especially. I think FarCry and CoD (later installments, 2 and higher) have had the least amount of "activity" by far, the BF series is so-so. I hope Crytek puts in some real effort unlike so many dev. teams (id *cough*, bastards)
"If anyone's ever told you nothing is impossible, tell them to try eating an ice cream cone from the bottom up!" -I forget who
Miscommunication
Gawd
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Oh yeah, nothing is impossible. That is true, however the reality is that the chances of DX10 coming to XP are too slim for anyone who has any "uncommon" sense (or a life) to worry about. But hey, the majority here still think the recently released "DX10 games" truly represent the API or the top-end hardware's ability that's currently available... .
.all the css/1.6 people will still be using xp i bet lol unless they actually decide to upgrade thier pc's
Or how about if Nvidia decides to get their heads out of their asses and actually make decent video drivers for vista, have you ever thought of that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista#Core_technologies
Quote:-
"Vista includes technologies such as ReadyBoost and ReadyDrive which employ fast flash memory (located on USB drives and hybrid hard disk drives respectively) to improve system performance by caching commonly-used programs and data. This manifests itself in improved battery life on notebook computers as well, since a hybrid drive can use the Flash memory to cache the data currently in use by the OS and/or other applications, spinning down the disc platters till some fresh data is required. Another new technology called SuperFetch utilizes machine learning techniques to analyze usage patterns in order to allow Windows Vista to make decisions about what application and content should be present in system memory at any given time."
Performance in Vista increases over time as it learns your usage patterns, I thought this was relatively well know fact?
By all accounts Vista is very useable on 1Gb, that's the recomended spec (not min spec). This whole magical 500Mb usage rumour is getting on my tits to be quite frank. Vista does not use 500Mb of RAM on all machines, it aims for a specific usage based on your system and how much available memory it has, computer with 2Gb of RAM can expect upto 500Mb of RAM to be used (approx 1/4th) and users with 4Gb can expect roughly 1Gb to be used, at least after a good few hours or running (again ~1/4th)
RAM is there to be used, empty RAM is wasted RAM, and just because Vista uses that RAM when other applications aren't, doesn't make Vista a "resource hog". In fact Vistas memory usage is far smarter than XP's and when something requests a lot of memory Vista unloads as much stuff as possible to reduce it's own footprint and increase available memory for the application.
If you're just hitting Ctrl Alt Del and reading off memory usage and assuming it's a value fixed in stone, I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about.
OpenGL can use new features built into the hardware which were designed for DirectX, things like the new geometry shader, most of the Nvidia tech demos for the 8800 series were written in OpenGL becuase access to these features aren't available through DX9.0c.
As others have already said, it's possible to run DX10 on XP, it's just very time consuming and difficult to write because lots of fundamental changes would need to be made to the OS. This in turn would effect everything else like needing new drivers for EVERYTHING in your PC. When faced with that much work it's easier to write a whole new revision of the OS which is what Microsoft did with Vista.
If you want new features you get a new OS that supports them, since when did people start thinking they can demand new features from newer OS's in old OS's which simply don't support them? If DX10 was written to also support XP it wouldn't have been nearly the leap it is, I personally prefer the break in backwards compatability to improve an API model which has been built up on itself for way too long now.
Not what I was talking about at all, but ok...Is this similar to many of the changes microsoft have made in the past AFTER the release of DirectX such as the decision to make DX9 min data accuracy 24bit rather than 32bit which made the 9700 DX9 compliant?
It's not the first time it's happened, I doubt it will be the last.
it has nothing to do with what's possible, it's all just marketing. it's about what the devs are willing to invest their time and money on, and who gets paid for compatablitly with what. look up "alky project".
http://alkyproject.blogspot.com/
http://www.fallingleafsystems.com/sapling/
in a perfect world everything would be backwards compatible with every os and every piece of hardware, for free. but all we got are these companies and their crazy schemes to turn a profit. so they can keep making more games. and more hardware. you know ms is the bitch here, dx is worthless without vendor support, they should grow some balls and open up the market but they're all just protecting the cash.
http://alkyproject.blogspot.com/
http://www.fallingleafsystems.com/sapling/
in a perfect world everything would be backwards compatible with every os and every piece of hardware, for free. but all we got are these companies and their crazy schemes to turn a profit. so they can keep making more games. and more hardware. you know ms is the bitch here, dx is worthless without vendor support, they should grow some balls and open up the market but they're all just protecting the cash.
That's an OpenGL to "DX10" wrapper and it doesn't run any executables, just a few DX10 SDK samples from inside the VS IDE. I haven't got it to run any DX10 SDK sample projects that use GS (GS shader effects don't work). It's a pretty useless hack.
or DX10 to OGL? ah but read on to his new "falling leaf" venture. what he plans to do is port executables for specific titles, for every os ?? at $20 per title. including HALO 2
. which is not even dx10. and has already been cracked for xp. obviously we should be skeptical of someone who proposes to charge for legally "reverse engineering" ms apis through their sdk. it's in pre-alpha now anyways, useless indeed. the boys over at ars couldn't even get it to work.http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/pos...ms-to-bring-dx10-gaming-to-xp-linux-os-x.html
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Because people still aren't done dropping their two cents on the table.
Anyways, don't get me wrong, I've tried Vista (only the X86 Ultimate, about to try X64) and while I love the new UI and Aero, nVIDIA's drivers still suck compared to XP. Some games I only notice a small hit while others it is much, much more noticeable. As soon as the drivers are on par with XP's I will happily switch to Vista.
Actually, all 8800 demos are DX9.0c as far as I checked (and as such don't use the geometry shader or anything, they mainly show off the power of the unified shaders and new antialiasing routines) except for the Cascades demo, which is DX10-only (and is mainly about the geometry shader), and doesn't work in XP.
So this is probably the first time that nVidia doesn't use OpenGL for its new product demos.
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+1, My two cents.
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++1 , my 2 cents, and i want change
As I said in that other thread (actually wanted to post it in this one, since this one seems to be the main thread)...
Falling Leaf systems is no more, and Alky is now turned opensource: http://alkyproject.blogspot.com/
So still no DX10 on XP.
Falling Leaf systems is no more, and Alky is now turned opensource: http://alkyproject.blogspot.com/
So still no DX10 on XP.