Download Windows 8 Consumer Preview

wonderfield said:
I don't dig your argument here. Being GPU-accelerated should not ordinarily yield an increase in system memory usage. In reality, the larger the data set that can reside on video memory, the less data required to reside within system memory. If free video memory should happen to run out, resources can always be brought in from the hard drive to system memory, but they need not permanently reside in system memory. GPU acceleration should also decrease CPU usage, not increase it, when utilized appropriately, so the 62% CPU usage indicated is truly baffling.
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That is baffling, I have a sandy bridge dual core, and this is what I see:
blah2.png
Nowhere close to 62%

However my original point was, even if it did constantly need 62% for that particular application, nobody has to run it, and even if they did it would only use the cpu if it was running, which the fact that it is forced full screen mode shouldn't be a big deal.



wonderfield said:
I see a memory commit size of 104.8 MB. How is that zero?
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Per the context of the conversation on cpu utilization, I was indicating that it uses zero [cpu] resources.
 
I think the biggest problem most people are having is that since it is new, they are naturally trying out everything. This leads to having 5+ desktop apps open and 5+ metro apps open and switching between them (while not hard) is less intuitive than simply going down to the task bar and clicking. In my opinion once people get over the initial "try it out phase" many of the issues would go away. Users with a touch screen/tablet will rarely have a need for desktop apps, and users on a desktop/non-touch laptop will have little need for metro apps (games might be the only exception). So when users start using the OS properly for the ecosystem it is running on, things all of a sudden become a lot more seamless.

That said, even though I am a fan of the new interface, I do have CONSTRUCTIVE criticism about a few things.

1. All Metro apps should have a close button in the bottom app bar. If I were to guess, I bet Microsoft doesn't WANT you to close Metro apps, but the simple truth is there is a large number of long-time Windows users who operate under the mindset that once you are done using an app, you close it (I would tend to lump myself in this category, although with 12gb of ram and a 2560x1600 monitor now-days I tend to just keep everything I use open). Personally, I find the drag from the top of the screen to close gesture very easy and intuitive, and it would be quicker than having to right click and then hit close, however I have seen this requested quite a bit so MS should definitely consider adding it.

2. There needs to be more consistency in the navigation around the start screen and Metro apps. A great example is scrolling. Why is it than in the start screen moving my mouse to the edge initiates scrolling, but it does not in the Store? Also, when I see an app that has the back button arrow at the top left of the screen, my first inclination is to hit the back button on my mouse, however I have yet to find a Metro app that this works in. Finally, if anyone has used the start screen emulator that comes with the Visual Studio 11 Beta, you may have noticed that if you enable touch emulation you can very easily scroll across the start screen by simple using your mouse as you would normally use your finger on a tablet. This was one of the first thoughts I had about improving mouse navigation on the start screen back when the Developer preview was released, and was bummed to find out it hasn't been added.
 
Took me 25 min to install ...it already had all the drivers installed... guess thats not so bad for 25 min.

Metro U.I. didn't seem responsive to me ... clicked on a few things and didn't seem to do anything but did or would seem to be doing something but wasn't.
So i quickly went to desktop mode ...what a relief! Works like plain old windows!
Default colors aren't really great ...went to the only available nature theme and liked it better.

I liked the HDD utilization in task manager. Runs well on my sig.

I made two accounts , 1 is administator and the other isn't. Anyway of having 2 administrator account ? Every action requiring a password is annyoing :eek:

Gonna go sink more time in it.
 
The one thing I didn't like, and maybe someone knows a workaround....
I have a 3 screen setup, with the primary display in the middle, and getting the mouse to stick to the edges when you have two screens on either side.... doesn't work so well. maybe I need to make an eyefinity display as one big display, but I don't like that configuration very much either. I like being able to pop windows onto different displays.
 
cbutters said:
The one thing I didn't like, and maybe someone knows a workaround....
I have a 3 screen setup, with the primary display in the middle, and getting the mouse to stick to the edges when you have two screens on either side.... doesn't work so well. maybe I need to make an eyefinity display as one big display, but I don't like that configuration very much either. I like being able to pop windows onto different displays.
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I could not get eyefinity to work at all. I downloaded the Windows 8 CP AMD drivers, but there was no catalyst control center. That's how it worked with the Windows 8 Developer preview.

I did get eyefinity to work in the W8DP, by using the latest W7 driver package. However, it does not work that way with W8CP...
 
Anyone can verify if Creative sound-card drivers work with this build? Last build it kept resetting my settings in the control panel when the computer was restarted.
 
I like it. Use it with the Metro UI turned off and it is very snappy. I may be wrong, but my understanding is they modularized it much more and fully hardware-accelerated it. So, Windows 8 should run faster in less memory than Windows 7. And it certainly feels that way.

Still exploring all the stuff in this new build, but I loved the developer preview.
 
delahaya said:
I like it. Use it with the Metro UI turned off and it is very snappy. I may be wrong, but my understanding is they modularized it much more and fully hardware-accelerated it. So, Windows 8 should run faster in less memory than Windows 7. And it certainly feels that way.

Still exploring all the stuff in this new build, but I loved the developer preview.
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Ummmmm...so tell us how do you turn Metro off?
 
stefan231 said:
Anyone can verify if Creative sound-card drivers work with this build? Last build it kept resetting my settings in the control panel when the computer was restarted.
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This. I really need Dolby Digital Live! before I can move to this.
 
Tried it for about 30 minutes so far; I don't like it all that much. The biggest problem I see is that Windows on a traditional computer now has two radically different UIs meshed together into one: the old desktop that people are familiar with (albiet without a start menu) and Metro. The difference is jarring and does not work well for me at all.

Metro by itself looks great for a tablet or phone. And I think Windows 7 did a pretty good job at refining the desktop experience. However, Windows 8 attempts to blend the Desktop and Metro together, which IMO is detrimental to both experiences.

For example: Internet Explorer is radically different depending on whether you launch it in Metro or from the Desktop (or the taskbar on the Desktop). Many programs are desktop-only while others only run in the Metro interface. I haven't played with Windows 8 nearly enough to draw a final conclusion but this looks like it'll be an utter mess - especially when you try to run multiple programs side-by-side with Metro apps entering into the mix.
 
My biggest complaint is that Metro apps do not run on netbooks. Seems kinda crazy (to me) to not have their minimum resolution for metro to include most netbooks which is where I think I would actually like using metro more.
 
Negative Decibel said:
I could not get eyefinity to work at all. I downloaded the Windows 8 CP AMD drivers, but there was no catalyst control center. That's how it worked with the Windows 8 Developer preview.

I did get eyefinity to work in the W8DP, by using the latest W7 driver package. However, it does not work that way with W8CP...
Click to expand...

I first installed the windows 8 CP amd drivers, and then force installed the regular windows 7 drivers via the device manager for my Radeon HD 7970, haven't tested eyefinity features yet, but I do have working displays and CCC is an option if I right click the desktop.
 
SockMan! said:
Tried it for about 30 minutes so far; I don't like it all that much. The biggest problem I see is that Windows on a traditional computer now has two radically different UIs meshed together into one: the old desktop that people are familiar with (albiet without a start menu) and Metro. The difference is jarring and does not work well for me at all.

Metro by itself looks great for a tablet or phone. And I think Windows 7 did a pretty good job at refining the desktop experience. However, Windows 8 attempts to blend the Desktop and Metro together, which IMO is detrimental to both experiences.

For example: Internet Explorer is radically different depending on whether you launch it in Metro or from the Desktop (or the taskbar on the Desktop). Many programs are desktop-only while others only run in the Metro interface. I haven't played with Windows 8 nearly enough to draw a final conclusion but this looks like it'll be an utter mess - especially when you try to run multiple programs side-by-side with Metro apps entering into the mix.
Click to expand...

The more I use Windows 8 the more I'm hating Windows 7. Whatever pro or anti Windows 8 people think Windows 8 at least on x86 machines is the most complete OS ever on consumer devices and it's unique. At some level I think that this uniqueness and controversy are EXACTLY what Microsoft wanted as another desktop only OS just doesn't garner much interest these days up against iOS and Android.
 
I don t really care for the start button as i usualy have a desktop full of program icons at hands reach.
The special feature with the start and setting is annoying to get to. Slidding mouse to the lower right makes it pop but not always or as fast as clicking on the start button.

Made two admin accounts.Was easier than i thought.

Was able to install steam but not every game seemed to launch settings properly.
Guess i'll need to look bit into that more.
BF:BC 2 gave me a black screen when starting a new game (but saw captions) rawr!.
Stalker:c.o.p. looks nice in dx10 :D
 
heatlesssun said:
The more I use Windows 8 the more I'm hating Windows 7. Whatever pro or anti Windows 8 people think Windows 8 at least on x86 machines is the most complete OS ever on consumer devices and it's unique. At some level I think that this uniqueness and controversy are EXACTLY what Microsoft wanted as another desktop only OS just doesn't garner much interest these days up against iOS and Android.
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I'm not hating Windows 7, but I am slowly falling in love with Windows 8.

Anybody tried out storage spaces yet? If you've no idea what I'm talking about, Google it. Its kinda cool.
 
BigJayDogg3 said:
I'm not hating Windows 7, but I am slowly falling in love with Windows 8.

Anybody tried out storage spaces yet? If you've no idea what I'm talking about, Google it. Its kinda cool.
Click to expand...

Yeah, hate was the wrong word in referring to Windows 7, you're description is much better. I plan to try out Storage Spaces in the next couple of weeks as hard drive prices drop. I'd like to use it as my main storage solution. I'd just like to be sure that I can upgrade any setup of it to the RC and then RTM.
 
Playing with 8 right now on Virtualbox, went into it expecting it to be an unpolished turd. I'm surprised that I kinda like it so far. I've been using vista since launch and didn't find it that different from XP aside from the pretty interface. Once I got past metro 8 doesn't feel like a foreign environment anymore. It took a couple minutes to figure out that the corners are active menu locations, after that and figuring out that the shutdown needs to be acessed from the right corner setting menu it was smooth sailing. I'm intrigued enough by the virtual machine to want to install it as a primary OS for a while to get the full hardware acceleration package and see how it does in day to day gaming and image editing workflow.
 
Well I just installed the CP on my fiancé's old laptop last night and had an hour or so with it so far.

Before I start, I want to say that I really wanted to like W8, I fell in love with the W7 RC as soon as I used it, and I had high hopes.

First the good. This thing is FAST. Originally the sadists at HP preloaded this 1.8ghz Pentium dual core 2gb laptop with Vista, and then added all their bloatware, so I was used to it being pretty slow. An updated W8 install, with just Chrome and MSE can go from power button to google.co.uk in the time it takes my i7 desktop to POST. Not sure even my phone could manage that from a cold start.
The new task manager looks really good too, not had to use it in anger yet but it's clearly more powerful.

But (of course there's a but), I'm finding it hard to love the Start Screen/metro UI.
First off, I expected to be able to just use it like the W7 Start menu, I'd hit the button begin to type the program or feature I wanted and use the arrow keys to select the right thing once it had filtered down enough. Despite what metro proponents have been saying, this is NOT how the start screen works. Settings are shown separately, so if you want quick access to say windows update, you have to go over and pick 'settings' from the right side of the screen. The beauty of searching from the start menu is that everything was in one place, splitting stuff up is a step back. By all means prioritise apps at the top of the list but don't just give me nothing if its in the wrong category.

My other complaint is one many have made (and it is a legitimate complaint), and its about the whole 'app' concept. Everything is full screen, which is great on a phone or tablet, or even a TV on the other side of the room, but on an 'aircraft carrier' laptop screen 2' from my eyes its an unnecessary waste of space. I had to go into I.E. to access my work webmail (outlook web access). W8 has a 'traditional' version of IE installed, but if you try the W7 route (start then 'internet') you get the full screen metro version. Its possible to convert it to a 'desktop' view but its a lot of messing around. I could pin the 'normal' version of IE to the task bar, but that defeats the point of the start screen.

Then there's shut down and restart. Like others have mentioned, its not immediately obvious where it is. Why Microsoft couldn't put the side bar on the same side of the screen as the start menu used to be I don't understand, but now to restart I have to:
Move my mouse right over to the right of the screen (after muscle memory took it to the bottom left)
Hope I hit the hidden hotspot.
Hope I don't move the mouse away too fast and cause the sidebar to vanish.
Click once on power and again on shutdown or restart.
Before it was winkey, up, left, enter.
I could get used to it if forced, but I don't like it.

I hope the Metro Fans in this forum can point me to settings and methods to eliminate my complaints, I'd love to be proved wrong. But the fact is that W7 worked perfectly (for me) right away.

I'm sure the more I use it I'll find things I both love and loathe, but the fact I can write a goddamn essay after just 2 hours shows W8 isn't done yet (not that I expected it too, I understand 'preview'). I love the fact it's breathed new life into a laptop I'd considered obsolete and useless, but I won't be handing MS any cash for windows 7 upgrades in its current state.

I'm hoping they removed the start menu to force people to at least try the new system but I'm not holding my breath. They want the 'App' market because it's a great way to nickel and dime your customers for years after that initial purchase. "Why save a shortcut to your favourite website when you can buy an App that does the same thing with a custom icon for just $1?"
 
oh man, seriously really, someone plz install skyrim on this f'ing thing because i'm about to purge this shitty 7 * from all_my_machines.. it's been a loooong time that i can't take this little 7 retarded childish crap as a windows emulator...
 
fucking hell, what a bummer... ok, fuck it, try this for size you fucking humanities sort of thing these days: Asphyx: As The Magma Mammoth Rises ^^
 
I got around to installing Win8 on my desktop (laptop tonight after freeing up some space for another partition, how much should I give it?) and I'm liking it the more I play around with it and bump around less with things.

My overall impression from last night: a full screen Start Menu with more stuff happening.

Since most of the stuff I was doing was some drivers, Steam, and a couple of installs, I was sitting in the Desktop most of the time anyway. If I pinned something such as Steam to the Start panel it would just load up full screen in the desktop. I was bouncing around, using Skype in the background, it was all good.

The biggest pro I noticed wasn't really OS based but rather noticing something I did a couple of weeks ago. I fixed my hotmail account settings to link to Facebook, grab my Google contacts, etc. With my Win8 desktop and my Win7 laptop, I had Trillian loaded on my laptop and somebody messaged me. Their conversation was happening in 'Messages' on Win8. Clicking them opened 'People' which had their Facebook pics and my Google contact info staring at me. I assume this is another form of that integrated Winphone 7.5 ecosystem at work.

My only issue which I've uncovered so far was I was having problems with games launched from Origin (please no snide remarks, goto any other thread for that) but I'm wondering if I need to install some more .Net bundles. The ME3 demo wouldn't load, neither did the KOA demo. BF3 worked after I installed Punkbuster. My Origin installed games are sitting on a different drive and when I ran Origin and it installed its registry settings, I just aimed the installed games to that same drive how I have it set up in Win7. I'll poke around more tonight. I only tried Skyrim out of Steam and that eventually worked after Steam installed a lot of things.

When I install it on the laptop I'll see how that settings sync works (hopefully works) :D
 
My biggest, and only issue, is why can't Microsoft make the metro interface as an option; not a feature.
 
all they did in win8 is switch the start button with the metro interface. That is the biggest difference and buying do that you have an os that can run on other devices other than pc's
 
kirbyrj said:
There's your answer...
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that's an answer, but not a solution. Why can't they make it so we can switch between the two interfaces? make metro interface DLC addon for Windows 7, or hell make a "Windows 7 Tablet Edition"... So far, I'm not sold.
 
Negative Decibel said:
that's an answer, but not a solution. Why can't they make it so we can switch between the two interfaces? make metro interface DLC addon for Windows 7, or hell make a "Windows 7 Tablet Edition"... So far, I'm not sold.
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When you start up, click the Desktop icon/box/thingy and you're in the desktop. I'm sure somebody will make some sort of 'Tweak UI' for it to go to desktop direct from startup.

I'm still a tad boggled at the outcry because it really is just a big start menu on a Wintel type system and when you open any traditional x86 app you're in the traditional desktop with desktop shortcuts and pinned taskbar icons and alt-tab window switching between every opened app. Leaving apps open after being done with them is a new concept to most of us, but I did notice a bunch closed by themselves when I was playing Skyrim. Having 9 gigs on my desktop and 4 on my laptop, I'll have to use them both to see if there's any noticeable difference.
 
So, can we just copy explorer.exe, plus some libraries over from a Windows 7 system and run them under Windows 8? :p
 
123Lanoix said:
all they did in win8 is switch the start button with the metro interface. That is the biggest difference and buying do that you have an os that can run on other devices other than pc's
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Not quite. That's the most visible change, but there have been updates at every level of the OS. You can see some of that stuff here: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/
 
Negative Decibel said:
My biggest, and only issue, is why can't Microsoft make the metro interface as an option; not a feature.
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If it didn't have Metro there would be no good reason to buy Win8 so they want to make it look like Win8 is worth buying when it really isn't for desktop PC users. They can't even try and con us with "gamers need Win8 for Directx12" this time around so there really is no good reason to buy Win8 unless you are a touch screen user.
 
Raxiel said:
But (of course there's a but), I'm finding it hard to love the Start Screen/metro UI.
First off, I expected to be able to just use it like the W7 Start menu, I'd hit the button begin to type the program or feature I wanted and use the arrow keys to select the right thing once it had filtered down enough. Despite what metro proponents have been saying, this is NOT how the start screen works. Settings are shown separately, so if you want quick access to say windows update, you have to go over and pick 'settings' from the right side of the screen. The beauty of searching from the start menu is that everything was in one place, splitting stuff up is a step back. By all means prioritise apps at the top of the list but don't just give me nothing if its in the wrong category.
Click to expand...

The thing here is that search is going to be much more useful in Windows 8 with a lot more search options through Metro search contracts. Windows 7's search is extensible but no one really did anything with it, the CP already has third party extensions in than I ever installed in 7.

Raxiel said:
My other complaint is one many have made (and it is a legitimate complaint), and its about the whole 'app' concept. Everything is full screen, which is great on a phone or tablet, or even a TV on the other side of the room, but on an 'aircraft carrier' laptop screen 2' from my eyes its an unnecessary waste of space. I had to go into I.E. to access my work webmail (outlook web access). W8 has a 'traditional' version of IE installed, but if you try the W7 route (start then 'internet') you get the full screen metro version. Its possible to convert it to a 'desktop' view but its a lot of messing around. I could pin the 'normal' version of IE to the task bar, but that defeats the point of the start screen.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's a little odd not being able to pin the desktop version of IE to the Start Screen as it's no problem with 3rd party browsers. Count on this being changed.

As for full screen apps, I think they can be great for people, they are nice on my dual-screen desktop, the email and calendar app are great on their own monitor. And some of these apps are just beautiful on a big screen.

Raxiel said:
I'm hoping they removed the start menu to force people to at least try the new system but I'm not holding my breath. They want the 'App' market because it's a great way to nickel and dime your customers for years after that initial purchase. "Why save a shortcut to your favourite website when you can buy an App that does the same thing with a custom icon for just $1?"
Click to expand...

You can pin your favorite web sites with their icons to the Start Screen.
 
heatlesssun said:
The thing here is that search is going to be much more useful in Windows 8 with a lot more search options through Metro search contracts. Windows 7's search is extensible but no one really did anything with it, the CP already has third party extensions in than I ever installed in 7.
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I still think that if a particular search term returns no 'app' results, but does return results in other sections it should be shown on the first screen without extra clicks, or at least offer me a setting for combined search results, then I've no one to blame but myself if I'm overwhelmed with irrelevant data.

I'm not saying they shouldn't try something new, but I'd prefer it wasn't at the expense of existing functionality.

heatlesssun said:
As for full screen apps, I think they can be great for people, they are nice on my dual-screen desktop, the email and calendar app are great on their own monitor. And some of these apps are just beautiful on a big screen.
Click to expand...

Not everything is suitable though, if the established shortcut of alt+enter worked for apps and put them in a window mode (and they remembered the preference) I probably wouldn't have any complaint though.

heatlesssun said:
You can pin your favorite web sites with their icons to the Start Screen.
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Fair enough, but that doesn't mean apps to do the same job won't be sold. Of course I don't have to buy them, but I fear the development focus of the environment may be to benefit 'trivial micropayments' providing things that aren't really needed but people will pay for because they don't cost much. Rather than finding a better compromise between tablet/phone UI and desktop UI. I hope I'm wrong on that though.

I don't think metro is the devil, and I see its advantages, I know this is a beta and will try to be cautiously optimistic. It'll take generous upgrade pricing or something more than I've seen so far to move from 7 on existing systems though.
 
I'll also add that I installed W8 on that laptop because it was gonna get wiped anyway, and I wanted to see if MS' latest and greatest could run like butter on a system that previously ran like shit (which it did)

I've installed it on my main machine now too, so I'll be able to run it through its paces beter.
 
Raxiel said:
I still think that if a particular search term returns no 'app' results, but does return results in other sections it should be shown on the first screen without extra clicks, or at least offer me a setting for combined search results, then I've no one to blame but myself if I'm overwhelmed with irrelevant data.

I'm not saying they shouldn't try something new, but I'd prefer it wasn't at the expense of existing functionality.
Click to expand...

I agree with some way to combine search results with a configurable selection or search items. But there isn't any loss of functionality, indeed search in Windows 8 will be FAR more useful as Metro apps extend the out of box search capabilities.

Raxiel said:
Not everything is suitable though, if the established shortcut of alt+enter worked for apps and put them in a window mode (and they remembered the preference) I probably wouldn't have any complaint though.
Click to expand...

And I can agree that this is an area where Microsoft clearly made compromises in favor of tablets over desktops, no doubt about it. But first and foremost Windows 8 HAS to be awesome tablet OS. At least unlike mobile tablet OSes Windows 8 supports side-by-side apps running which is actually VERY nice in a lot of cases.


Raxiel said:
Fair enough, but that doesn't mean apps to do the same job won't be sold. Of course I don't have to buy them, but I fear the development focus of the environment may be to benefit 'trivial micropayments' providing things that aren't really needed but people will pay for because they don't cost much. Rather than finding a better compromise between tablet/phone UI and desktop UI. I hope I'm wrong on that though.
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One thing to consider is that at the heart of Metro is a VERY standards compliant HTML 5 engine, JavaScript/CSS is one of the options for creating Metro apps. There is a reason why the IE 10 Metro browser is chromeless. Sure Microsoft wants people to write Metro apps. They have also provided a completely standards compliant way to deliver applications to the browser on tablets.

Raxiel said:
I don't think metro is the devil, and I see its advantages, I know this is a beta and will try to be cautiously optimistic. It'll take generous upgrade pricing or something more than I've seen so far to move from 7 on existing systems though.
Click to expand...

As the library of Metro apps grows that's going to be tough for average users that are going to love alot of those apps and will rant them even for non-touch laptops and desktops.
 
After a brief drive through 8, I can say I'm not a huge fan of Metro or the new Start menu. I wouldn't mind it so much if I could select/open something with the minimized view, but all I can do is click to maximize it, then run something--'something' being Windows explorer.

The whole metro view feels total tacked on and going from the Metro view to standard Windows tasks feels jarring, although I'll probably get used to it in time. Laying aside familiarity with PCs and various OS's, I can say that users are going to complain hard for the time it takes to become familiar with the new layout and behavior. Basically, the Tetris layout is lame and intrusive to getting to the task of doing things on your PC. Window has always been about making everything accessible without user intervention, like adding new apps to the start menu, last used docs and so on. Metro simply confuses things--it will be alleviated as devs make Metro apps (but I'm assuming widespread acceptance here which is no guarantee.)

On a Dell 6831FX lappy, I had to install audio/video drivers to get sound and native resolution, respectively. TL;DR - I'm blaming that on Dell, although the video just needed the nVidia drivers.

The extract view for compressed files is pretty cool, albeit somewhat useless. It's one of those visual things that make users happy. I can also say that I saw a nice implementation with 'The Ribbon' in the file view, to display hidden files and file extensions--the problem with it is that it took two 'View->do something' operations to view hidden files and view file extensions (which were just ticking checkboxes.) It's a fairly nitpicky thing that will likely get fixed in the release version, but by god, MS better not make trivial tasks take more clicks. Everyone gets familiar with doing things a certain way, and making that take more clicks/keypresses is going backwards.

My wife took one look and said "I won't use that", which is about all the proof I need. (I said, 'Yes you will, I'll upgrade your PC eventually,' and she reminded me that I just bought her a MacBook Air. LOL, lost that argument in a drunken hurry.)

Admittedly, these are initial impressions and not indicative of long term use and familiarity--but that's all it takes to make or break something new, and many supposedly [H] people here spread endless FUD about Vista in the face of contradictory facts. How well can we expect casual PC users to react? MS needs to do some serious fine tuning of the new interface options, and if they really listen to users, they'll get it right and delay release if necessary.
 
I am not going to bother with Win 8. Removing Aero is very ridiculous. I need the start button! :-(
 
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