Diablo 3 Discussion Thread

mope54 said:
you're welcome to come hunt with us in HC
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/bizzle-1328/

I'm on with two others every night and we currently have HC at all levels 40 and below so you could start one up and level along with us and we could use a barbarian



This ilevel 36 wand adds to Magic Missile or energy twister damage
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/blackhand-key

This ilevel 63 wand has similar attributes
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/sloraks-madness

No legendary axe does anything like that
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/axe-1h/#type=legendary

I mean, one could choose to use The Butcher's Sickle if it had a better roll than a wand but that'd be a poor decision for a wizard unless you liked proc'ing a special that drags enemies toward you! Sky Splitter's chance to smite an enemy won't even proc on a ranged character so, again, while the dps might roll higher it wouldn't be optimal.

The arguments based on these objections are boiling down to people basing their decisions on the game's mechanics around crappy rolls on gear. It certainly isn't accurate when discussing higher level gear and it definitely isn't true that melee weapon *holding* casters are breaking diablo lore (neither RPG lore).
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Crappy rolls? Seriously? 200 hours into the game and I've never gotten a DPS weapon that is what I really need. Give me a break, you're being disingenuous with your arguments. Of course if you have tens or hundreds of millions of gold to spend, you can specifically tailor the very few pieces of gear that have skill specific bonuses and min/max your DPS. But it's incredibly hard to do and is nothing like D2 or D1's system that was interesting and had random drops that benefited your skills. That wand you linked really isn't all that good even compared to rare 1H swords, etc.
 
It wasn't to show the best item in the game it was to demonstrate that the person I was responding to was wrong when he claimed that weapons do "nothing" for spells and are *only* about DPS.

All of my gear is self-found. I'm one of the three people who have linked his profile recently in the thread.
 
Breath_of_the_Dying said:
I dont get why people get so upset about what type of weapon you're wearing, gear shouldnt define a class, skills should.
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Personally, I'm not upset about Wizards using giant 2H axes or wands or crossbows. What does upset me is that if I want to make a crossbow-wielding Wizard I still end up with a regular Wizard that just happens to be carrying a crossbow. The crossbow doesn't really change anything: I don't need to be stronger to use a big heavy weapon and my skills don't work differently with different weapons beyond attack speed and damage range. And for some reason the crossbow affects my skill damage but I can't carry any arrows.

Skills should define a class, yet the devs have said that Diablo games are all about "the loot", and the skills are directly tied to the DPS on your weapon. That shift from skills being based on levels to skills being based on weapon DPS is a big reason why we got such uninteresting stats as "+2% anything". Poison damage? Lightning damage? Fire damage? It's all just generic damage unless your passive skills happen to need a certain type. Want to make a fire Wizard? Enjoy use of 5 fire skill runes - 3 of which are for Meteor - and then, uh, load up on physical damage skills I guess? Explosive Blast is "physical" damage? Wind is arcane damage? What?

The above is what I meant when I said "nothing is special" earlier. It's why trifecta items are undeniably the best items. It's why you can't "add cold damage" to most skills through gear (used Frostburns lately?). It's why the game design is rife with cooldowns and numerical bloat. It's why most of the skills in the game don't synergize well.
 
Speaking of elemental damage, they should work more to make it interesting and useful. If a skill use fire damage, any fire damage modifier would benefit it so you will be forced to gear based on this. Right now, it seems generic.

They also should bring back elemental resistant or immune elite packs while coding to avoid double-immunities. You will be forced to have a alternate skill set to tacke a pack which is immune to your main attack. This is what D2 had.
 
Xilikon said:
This is what D2 had.
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Whoa whoa whoa! Regardless of how well thought out your suggestion might be, you can't just go throwing around acronyms like that like you own the place! You trying to get yourself invalidated? Some things are just not said when dealing with...certain groups.

Now, repeat our mantra 5 times: "D2 is an illusion created by false nostalgia."
 
Aix. said:
Personally, I'm not upset about Wizards using giant 2H axes or wands or crossbows. What does upset me is that if I want to make a crossbow-wielding Wizard I still end up with a regular Wizard that just happens to be carrying a crossbow. The crossbow doesn't really change anything: I don't need to be stronger to use a big heavy weapon and my skills don't work differently with different weapons beyond attack speed and damage range. And for some reason the crossbow affects my skill damage but I can't carry any arrows.

Skills should define a class, yet the devs have said that Diablo games are all about "the loot", and the skills are directly tied to the DPS on your weapon. That shift from skills being based on levels to skills being based on weapon DPS is a big reason why we got such uninteresting stats as "+2% anything". Poison damage? Lightning damage? Fire damage? It's all just generic damage unless your passive skills happen to need a certain type. Want to make a fire Wizard? Enjoy use of 5 fire skill runes - 3 of which are for Meteor - and then, uh, load up on physical damage skills I guess? Explosive Blast is "physical" damage? Wind is arcane damage? What?

The above is what I meant when I said "nothing is special" earlier. It's why trifecta items are undeniably the best items. It's why you can't "add cold damage" to most skills through gear (used Frostburns lately?). It's why the game design is rife with cooldowns and numerical bloat. It's why most of the skills in the game don't synergize well.
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You said all this better than I ever could, but that's exactly how i feel.

They just didn't think shit through very well. Why does the wizard have two lightening signature moves? Where is the fire or cold signature move? Where is the Arcane Power spending lightening move?

They put in passives to make it look like you could go lightening spec, arcane spec, fire spec, or cold spec. Yet when you go try to build those specs, you realize there are barely any moves to do it with.

I tried to get into their new skill system, build different specs and the like. They just didn't give you the right tools. The tools the did give you were mostly uninteresting.
 
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chockomonkey said:
You said all this better than I ever could, but that's exactly how i feel.

They just didn't think shit through very well. Why does the wizard have two lightening signature moves? Where is the fire or cold signature move?

They put in passives to make it look like you could go lightening spec, arcane spec, fire spec, or cold spec. Yet when you go try to build those specs, you realize there are barely any moves to do it with.

I tried to get into their new skill system, build different specs and the like. They just didn't give you the right tools. The tools the did give you were mostly uninteresting.
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That's what I wonder. What were they thinking. They had a winning formula with D2. Heck, they could have just released D2 again with new graphics, add in some features and skills, maybe a few new acts, and they would have a winner.
 
For me the Wizards biggest design flaw is the beam skills disintegrate, ray of frost, and Akon are all pretty much the exact same and each skill rune does little to nothing to change that.

Seriously its like they took the Wizard from Magicka and popped it right into D3 and it will always erk me.

But the Wizard has some pretty bad ass spells, some just need some damage tweaking (arcane orb). If they fixed/removed shock pulse (except living lighting), ray of frost, arcane torrent, disintegrate, teleport, Ice Armor, and Storm Armor the wizard would be the shit.

I could of designed a much better wizard. A living lightning bomb which is like frost orb but with lighting and shoot out mini living lightings. A simple bolt spell that uses all your arcane and varies in power based on how much arcane you had like 10 AP = 200% damage 100 AP = 2000%. A teleport that goes over holes in the ground and cost AP vs timed. actually different Akon Modes, Beast mode turns into a honey badger, Akon makes you shoot out musical notes, Blade gives you a giant swords that swings for half the screen, pogo mode gives you a pogo stick that causes shock waves when you bounce.
 
stevedave said:
For me the Wizards biggest design flaw is the beam skills disintegrate, ray of frost, and Akon are all pretty much the exact same and each skill rune does little to nothing to change that.

Seriously its like they took the Wizard from Magicka and popped it right into D3 and it will always erk me.

But the Wizard has some pretty bad ass spells, some just need some damage tweaking (arcane orb). If they fixed/removed shock pulse (except living lighting), ray of frost, arcane torrent, disintegrate, teleport, Ice Armor, and Storm Armor the wizard would be the shit.

I could of designed a much better wizard. A living lightning bomb which is like frost orb but with lighting and shoot out mini living lightings. A simple bolt spell that uses all your arcane and varies in power based on how much arcane you had like 10 AP = 200% damage 100 AP = 2000%. A teleport that goes over holes in the ground and cost AP vs timed. actually different Akon Modes, Beast mode turns into a honey badger, Akon makes you shoot out musical notes, Blade gives you a giant swords that swings for half the screen, pogo mode gives you a pogo stick that causes shock waves when you bounce.
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Son of a bitch i'd play the fuck outa that.

It's not just the wizard either. The DH has many of the same kind of flaws. Moves and runes which don't make any sense and never get used. Why do they have spammable grenade move? When i saw grenades all i wanted was a powerful one-and-done kinda grenade. Not another move that could potentially replace all my other spammy ranged moves.
 
Xilikon said:
Speaking of elemental damage, they should work more to make it interesting and useful. If a skill use fire damage, any fire damage modifier would benefit it so you will be forced to gear based on this. Right now, it seems generic.

They also should bring back elemental resistant or immune elite packs while coding to avoid double-immunities. You will be forced to have a alternate skill set to tacke a pack which is immune to your main attack. This is what D2 had.
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they took them out because play testers would only use the highest damage. they did leave cold in because it doesn't get used too much due to low damage. but cold weapons still chill and frozen enemies have a chance to shatter on crit
 
mope54 said:
they took them out because play testers would only use the highest damage. they did leave cold in because it doesn't get used too much due to low damage. but cold weapons still chill and frozen enemies have a chance to shatter on crit
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Sounds like either:
A) retarded playtesters
B) bad chill mechanic.

If they were properly designed, and the playtesters decent, they would have seen a variety of choices.

It's just the general D3 design philosphy-- "Don't fix it, remove it!"
 
chockomonkey said:
It's not just the wizard either. The DH has many of the same kind of flaws. Moves and runes which don't make any sense and never get used. Why do they have spammable grenade move? When i saw grenades all i wanted was a powerful one-and-done kinda grenade. Not another move that could potentially replace all my other spammy ranged moves.
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My DH was based on the various Grenadier skills and passives from the get-go. Then for some reason they nerfed the LOH coefficient for grenades (because I guess I wasn't kiting enough?!) and they wrecked my tanky spec - I still don't understand why.

One of favorite D2 characters was a Blade Fury/Kicker Assassin that focused on having a bunch of % damage reduction, integer damage reduction, and sweet procs like Crushing Blow and (eventually) a weapon that proc'd Static Field. So, being the wiley D2 vet that I am, when D3 launched I identified some of the skills that I could make a similarly "non-standard" character with, in particular:

Required:
- Grenades - Cluster Grenades/Gas Grenades
- Caltrops - Jagged Spikes

Maybes:
- Impale - (various runes)
- Chakram - Shuriken Cloud

I also had the idea that I could probably try using a dagger or other non-bow weapon because I would be using non-bow skills. That was when I figured out that there wasn't really any difference between using a dagger and a hand crossbow other than the fact that I'd be ensuring I got no class-specific bonuses like hatred/discipline. At that point I figured that there was no reason to disregard all the bow skills if I was going to be using a bow anyway, and from there I quickly learned that there were a few skills that were simply so effective that they were impossible to pass up. Then they nerfed the proc/LOH coefficient for Grenades AND Caltrops and I was basically forced to take up different skills entirely.

So I look at a skill like Impale and think "why doesn't it get stronger when I'm using a dagger?" And that's like 5 seconds worth of brainstorming on that skill. It just seems so obvious; why doesn't my weapon type matter at all? http://youtu.be/AG7LjVCj50Y
 
in those five seconds of brainstorming didn't it occur to you that having to choose between a crossbow with class specific bonuses or a sub-optimal dagger meant that a) apparently weapon type *does* matter and b) you needed to search for a better dagger?
 
mope54 said:
in those five seconds of brainstorming didn't it occur to you that having to choose between a crossbow with class specific bonuses or a sub-optimal dagger meant that a) apparently weapon type *does* matter and b) you needed to search for a better dagger?
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do you try to be dense? ...or just like playing the devil's advocate?

If he had a crossbow and a dagger with 8 dps, it doesn't matter which one is equipped when using impale. It will do the same exact damage in the same exact way.
 
chockomonkey said:
do you try to be dense? ...or just like playing the devil's advocate?
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No, I'm not dense and I'm not playing the devil's advocate. I'm thinking your positions through and they don't make sense and you guys often contradict your own opinions depending on which page you're posting on.

If he had a crossbow and a dagger with 8 dps, it doesn't matter which one is equipped when using impale. It will do the same exact damage in the same exact way.
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Yes, that example is true but then the only way to resolve that is to argue that every single item in the game should be optimal.

Is that really what you want to argue?
 
mope54 said:
No, I'm not dense and I'm not playing the devil's advocate. I'm thinking your positions through and they don't make sense and you guys often contradict your own opinions depending on which page you're posting on.


Yes, that example is true but then the only way to resolve that is to argue that every single item in the game should be optimal.

Is that really what you want to argue?
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I'd argue a standard trade-off system.

maybe let crossbows be better at arrow attacks, and daggers better at dagger attacks.

i dunno *shrug*
 
mope54 said:
No, I'm not dense and I'm not playing the devil's advocate. I'm thinking your positions through and they don't make sense and you guys often contradict your own opinions depending on which page you're posting on.


Yes, that example is true but then the only way to resolve that is to argue that every single item in the game should be optimal.

Is that really what you want to argue?
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It's like you specialize in missing the point. How the hell did you read my last few posts in this thread and conclude that my point was "every single item in the game should be optimal"?
 
Aix. said:
It's like you specialize in missing the point. How the hell did you read my last few posts in this thread and conclude that my point was "every single item in the game should be optimal"?
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I honestly gave up a page ago.
 
You ignore the fact that some daggers do in fact have demon hunter affixes (while acknowledging that a lot of bow weapons have demon hunter specific attributes and bonuses), ignore the fact that some daggers and other melee weapons have the chill/freeze/shatter mechanic, and ignore the fact that it will take considerable time to find a melee weapon that is better than all the bow weapons with higher drop rates in order to conclude that playing a melee demon hunter taught you that any and all weapons work exactly the same and it doesn't matter what you equip.

Then chockomonkey compares a white 8 dps dagger to a white 8 dps bow and says they'll act the same.
The only logical response to that example is to either:
a) find a better dagger
or
b) argue that both the white 8dps items should be equally effective

Now if you have a different response to that I would appreciate you posting it. I did ask if that's what he wanted to argue. If you don't want to argue that then tell us what you want to argue instead of trolling the D3 thread.
 
mope54 said:
You ignore the fact that some daggers do in fact have demon hunter affixes (while acknowledging that a lot of bow weapons have demon hunter specific attributes and bonuses), ignore the fact that some daggers and other melee weapons have the chill/freeze/shatter mechanic, and ignore the fact that it will take considerable time to find a melee weapon that is better than all the bow weapons with higher drop rates in order to conclude that playing a melee demon hunter taught you that any and all weapons work exactly the same and it doesn't matter what you equip.

Then chockomonkey compares a white 8 dps dagger to a white 8 dps bow and says they'll act the same.
The only logical response to that example is to either:
a) find a better dagger
or
b) argue that both the white 8dps items should be equally effective

Now if you have a different response to that I would appreciate you posting it. I did ask if that's what he wanted to argue. If you don't want to argue that then tell us what you want to argue instead of trolling the D3 thread.
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In Diablo 3, you don't use weapons, you use skills that are modified by your weapons. Whether it's a dagger or a 1 handed xbow doesn't matter one bit. If the stats are the same, you will still be performing each action identically, mechanically speaking. It doesn't matter if you're using a wand or a mace, the function is the same assuming the stats are the same.

In Path of Exile, you need to use a dagger to perform dagger based attacks, an axe to perform axe based attacks and so on.
 
mope54 said:
You ignore the fact that some daggers do in fact have demon hunter affixes (while acknowledging that a lot of bow weapons have demon hunter specific attributes and bonuses), ignore the fact that some daggers and other melee weapons have the chill/freeze/shatter mechanic, and ignore the fact that it will take considerable time to find a melee weapon that is better than all the bow weapons with higher drop rates in order to conclude that playing a melee demon hunter taught you that any and all weapons work exactly the same and it doesn't matter what you equip.
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So you did miss my point.

- Nothing takes considerable time to find in D3 because: AH.
- DH "melee" skills don't get better with melee weapons; if you have a 200DPS 1.50 attack speed HxB vs a 200DPS 1.50 attack speed dagger then there's really no reason to take the dagger that I am aware of.
- Not sure what daggers rolling the chill proc mechanic has to do with this.
 
Aix. said:
So you did miss my point.

- Nothing takes considerable time to find in D3 because: AH.
- DH "melee" skills don't get better with melee weapons; if you have a 200DPS 1.50 attack speed HxB vs a 200DPS 1.50 attack speed dagger then there's really no reason to take the dagger that I am aware of.
- Not sure what daggers rolling the chill proc mechanic has to do with this.
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You're starting to get toward the end of the line of your logical construction. Perhaps you'll understand that I'm actually thinking your argument through more than you apparently are instead of continuing to try and insult my comprehension levels.

Whether you use an 8dps dagger vs. an 8dps bow, or a 200dps dagger vs. a 200dps cross bow in your example, the result does not change. Both are *equally* impactful as they should be because in your example the stats are exactly the same on either weapon.

Does that mean that any and all weapon choices are irrelevant?
No. It tells you that when you only consider raw DPS the choice to use one or other depends on your personal preference rather than the game's mechanics forcing one over the other.

The answer to your example and question of "what reason would I have for choosing one over the other?" is "which one do *I* like more." That was the argument earlier in the thread...that the game did not allow players to choose which one they liked more.

I believe your own examples are undermining that argument.


Secondly, the chill mechanic (and your own words pointing out that certain bows have select demon hunter bonuses) demonstrates that clearly weapon choices *do* matter. One can not simply compare raw DPS and conclude that this is the only metric by which to evaluate a weapon.

This example demonstrates that both your argument that weapon choices do not matter is incorrect *and* it also demonstrates that the earlier argument that *only* DPS matters in this game and therefore weapon choices are stale is also incorrect.
 
mope54 said:
You're starting to get toward the end of the line of your logical construction. Perhaps you'll understand that I'm actually thinking your argument through more than you apparently are instead of continuing to try and insult my comprehension levels.

Whether you use an 8dps dagger vs. an 8dps bow, or a 200dps dagger vs. a 200dps cross bow in your example, the result does not change. Both are *equally* impactful as they should be because in your example the stats are exactly the same on either weapon.

Does that mean that any and all weapon choices are irrelevant?
No. It tells you that when you only consider raw DPS the choice to use one or other depends on your personal preference rather than the game's mechanics forcing one over the other.

The answer to your example and question of "what reason would I have for choosing one over the other?" is "which one do *I* like more." That was the argument earlier in the thread...that the game did not allow players to choose which one they liked more.

I believe your own examples are undermining that argument.


Secondly, the chill mechanic (and your own words pointing out that certain bows have select demon hunter bonuses) demonstrates that clearly weapon choices *do* matter. One can not simply compare raw DPS and conclude that this is the only metric by which to evaluate a weapon.

This example demonstrates that both your argument that weapon choices do not matter is incorrect *and* it also demonstrates that the earlier argument that *only* DPS matters in this game and therefore weapon choices are stale is also incorrect.
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I think I get where you're coming from now. But you have to realize that the mechanics you are talking about (either specific affixes for certain classes or moves, or this chill effect (which i didn't even know was there)), are so poorly designed that no one uses them the way you're describing.

DPS is king in D3. That's why the made the number so friggin massive on the tooltip =P

From what i've seen, the class or move specific affixes on certain weapons and armor are rarely potent enough to justify a loss in dps, unless that loss was so small that it were deemed negligible. (like, who would trade 10% more damage to arcane missile for 80% crit damage?)

The ONLY affixes i've ever found actually powerful enough to seek out, are +arcane power on crit (for CM specs, obviously).
 
mope54 said:
You're starting to get toward the end of the line of your logical construction. Perhaps you'll understand that I'm actually thinking your argument through more than you apparently are instead of continuing to try and insult my comprehension levels.

Whether you use an 8dps dagger vs. an 8dps bow, or a 200dps dagger vs. a 200dps cross bow in your example, the result does not change. Both are *equally* impactful as they should be because in your example the stats are exactly the same on either weapon.

Does that mean that any and all weapon choices are irrelevant?
No. It tells you that when you only consider raw DPS the choice to use one or other depends on your personal preference rather than the game's mechanics forcing one over the other.

The answer to your example and question of "what reason would I have for choosing one over the other?" is "which one do *I* like more." That was the argument earlier in the thread...that the game did not allow players to choose which one they liked more.

I believe your own examples are undermining that argument.


Secondly, the chill mechanic (and your own words pointing out that certain bows have select demon hunter bonuses) demonstrates that clearly weapon choices *do* matter. One can not simply compare raw DPS and conclude that this is the only metric by which to evaluate a weapon.

This example demonstrates that both your argument that weapon choices do not matter is incorrect *and* it also demonstrates that the earlier argument that *only* DPS matters in this game and therefore weapon choices are stale is also incorrect.
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You know why you just wrote all that? Because when you first started responding to me (this post) you ignored most of what I wrote and then tried to refute one part of it out of context.

I'm arguing that the Pepsi or Coke makes my burger and fries taste better, and you're arguing that there's a difference between getting the fries and the baked potato. I'm arguing that the weapons, skills, passives and mechanics all need to interact with and affect each other, and you're arguing that I'm wrong because a dagger is different from a crossbow because they can roll a couple of different mods.
 
chockomonkey said:
I think I get where you're coming from now. But you have to realize that the mechanics you are talking about (either specific affixes for certain classes or moves, or this chill effect (which i didn't even know was there)), are so poorly designed that no one uses them the way you're describing.

DPS is king in D3. That's why the made the number so friggin massive on the tooltip =P

From what i've seen, the class or move specific affixes on certain weapons and armor are rarely potent enough to justify a loss in dps, unless that loss was so small that it were deemed negligible. (like, who would trade 10% more damage to arcane missile for 80% crit damage?)

The ONLY affixes i've ever found actually powerful enough to seek out, are +arcane power on crit (for CM specs, obviously).
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That's a criticism I do agree with and one the developers have stated they agree with and are working toward addressing in the upcoming patches.

I do want to point out, however, that people *do* use weapons the way I'm describing. In fact, I searched about dagger DH extensively before I responded to Aix and read what people said about it, what they recommended for builds, and their gear choices and finds. I read the main diablo forums, dinc, and watched a couple youtube videos. Then I responded to him. I did my research before I shot my opinion out there. I also did the same thing when I responded about the skorn question. That time I even loaded up the game and went into the AH. I didn't do that this time for the dagger question because I already knew from experience that daggers drop with DH (and wizard for that matter) affixes. Some of them are really cool.

You don't have to base your decisions on DPS. It seems like it makes sense to do that but the game does not *force* you to. So it doesn't make sense to do that and then complain about it. The game is playable and it's enjoyable to play with off-builds without optimal gear. I do it, my friends do it, and lots of people on various forums do it.

If someone's only willing to put a couple hundred hours into a diablo game then what can I say to that? I say well try and play more but then Aix said he doesn't have to play more because he has the AH. I recommended people join me and my friends for HC but no one added me last night. There's only so much I can do :) If people don't want to play HC where there's a working economy and the game is more challenging then that's their choice. They could opt to ignore the AH altogether. I'm self found and have played all the way through on SC up through inferno and crafted my Hellfire ring.

If people want to be angry then there's really no answer to someone wanting to be angry. If someone wants to have fun and wants to find ways to have fun with this game then it's out there. There are issues but it's possible.

If you look at my profile you'll see that while my monk is spec'ed to dual wield she's currently using an Inna's Reach (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/bizzle-1328/hero/24326772).

That's because I was demonstrating to my friend that the 3 piece Inna set bonus is currently useless whereas the 4 piece seems like it might be worthwhile but we haven't made a firm decision. Those bonuses made more sense when the game launched but now they need to be re-worked. That's something the community has been asking the devs and they haven't specifically answered it in the Q&A yet.

Also, don't forget that I posted this earlier in the thread:
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1039654002&postcount=10975


Aix. said:
You know why you just wrote all that? Because when you first started responding to me (this post) you ignored most of what I wrote and then tried to refute one part of it out of context.

I'm arguing that the Pepsi or Coke makes my burger and fries taste better, and you're arguing that there's a difference between getting the fries and the baked potato. I'm arguing that the weapons, skills, passives and mechanics all need to interact with and affect each other, and you're arguing that I'm wrong because a dagger is different from a crossbow because they can roll a couple of different mods.
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What you kept repeating in those posts and what you reiterated in your last couple posts was that "nothing is special" and anyone and everyone can use anything.
Both of those claims are incorrect.

Your examples don't make sense to me. But I will say that you're wrong to say that weapons, skills, and passive and mechanics don't interact with one another.
They do interact. The fact that you haven't found a particular dagger to interact with the skills you want to use isn't proof of anything other than you haven't yet found a dagger that suits you.
I don't know how far you've progressed. You haven't posted your profile. In fact, the only people who post their profiles in this thread are people having fun playing the game. I find that a strange phenomenon.

What you have been arguing lately is that when you equip a dagger you should have some dagger skills to go along with it.
That would limit choices of players, not expand them.

Having skills that work off the base DPS allows anyone to use any weapon that the class can wield as long as they like the affixes on it.
Having a skillset that only worked for daggers or bows would mean that only daggers or bows are useful to a DH.
That leaves the person who finds a badass sword out of the picture so he has to sit there and ask for his sword specific skillset.

The onus is on the player to find a piece of loot that suits his or her playstyle.
There are some examples of certain affixes not scaling adequately into late-game. That's an issue that developed over time and needs to be addressed. It is being addressed so there isn't much to debate on that point.

That said, there are very cool class specific items. There are some really badass quivers for DH to use and barbarians can't use them.
So no, anyone can not use anything as you put it.
You're mixing up your arguments and making formal logic errors (like undistributed middle terms).
 
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mope54 said:
What you have been arguing lately is that when you equip a dagger you should have some dagger skills to go along with it.
That would limit choices of players, not expand them.
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Wrong. I never asked for dagger-specific skills. What I said was this:

So I look at a skill like Impale and think "why doesn't it get stronger when I'm using a dagger?"
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I highlighted the fact that the skills are used in the same fashion no matter what weapon you use. I am suggesting that itemization and character building would be far more interesting if the skills actually synergized with the other major elements of the game.

Looking at Impale again:
- If the skill had some bonus like "+20% Critical Strike Chance while using a dagger" would you use it?
- What if selecting Impale (or, for the sake of argument, a specific Impale rune) gave a bonus to Fan of Knives? Would you use it?
- What if selecting both of those skills replaced the arrows fired by Vault - Action Shot with the standard Fan of Knives effect? Would you use it? Would you use all three? Would you use all three with a dagger class weapon?

You see where I'm going with this? Call me a troll if you want but nobody wanted this game to succeed more than I did. The stuff I'm talking about is what allows you to build your character. There's all this focus on DPS and getting gear, yet how often do you look at a skill combo and think "hey that's cool, that's different"? How often do you look at a skill and think "that could be cool except...(a) better skill exists (b) huge cooldown (c) wrong damage type (d) too expensive"?

The D3 devs don't need to start over from scratch and they don't need to bring back everything from D2. What they need to do is use some fucking imagination with what they have because it seems like most of the elements of D3 were designed by different people who never spoke to each other before putting it all together.
 
Aix. said:
Looking at Impale again:
- If the skill had some bonus like "+20% Critical Strike Chance while using a dagger" would you use it?
- What if selecting Impale (or, for the sake of argument, a specific Impale rune) gave a bonus to Fan of Knives? Would you use it?
- What if selecting both of those skills replaced the arrows fired by Vault - Action Shot with the standard Fan of Knives effect? Would you use it? Would you use all three? Would you use all three with a dagger class weapon?
Click to expand...

Yep. This is exactly the kind of depth the game's moves are missing. Synergies.

Who knows, maybe they'll add all this in the expansion. They better if they want more money from me.
 
chockomonkey said:
Yep. This is exactly the kind of depth the game's moves are missing. Synergies.

Who knows, maybe they'll add all this in the expansion. They better if they want more money from me.
Click to expand...

Considering the history of this game and its development...do you really see them banging out an expansion any time soon? I know it's the trend of many companies these days - especially Activision - but if there's one thing that hasn't changed about Blizzard it has been the speed at which they update and release games.

Unless they actually held back a bunch of content with the intention of releasing it later, I just don't see it. If they want people to come back and start playing D3 and spending money at the RMAH they're going to have to do it the old-fashioned way - or not at all. I'm skeptical we'll see significant change though.

Edit: oh right, I totally forgot about the whole "coming to consoles" thing...yeah, no way this is going to change much.
 
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Aix. said:
Considering the history of this game and its development...do you really see them banging out an expansion any time soon? I know it's the trend of many companies these days - especially Activision - but if there's one thing that hasn't changed about Blizzard it has been the speed at which they update and release games.

Unless they actually held back a bunch of content with the intention of releasing it later, I just don't see it. If they want people to come back and start playing D3 and spending money at the RMAH they're going to have to do it the old-fashioned way - or not at all. I'm skeptical we'll see significant change though.
Click to expand...

With them reinvisioning loot stats and other balance tweaks currently, I doubt they are anywhere near an expansion. I expect them to get to a point of reasonable balance and design before they launch additional content.
 
chockomonkey said:
Yep. This is exactly the kind of depth the game's moves are missing. Synergies.

Who knows, maybe they'll add all this in the expansion. They better if they want more money from me.
Click to expand...
He said I was wrong to write that he wants dagger specific skills but then goes on to use an example of a skill *only* giving a damage modifier to dagger users (and simultaneously arguing that DPS shouldn't be the motivator while asking for a skill that simply adds to DPS).

Then he asks me when the last time I did x, y, and z to try and demonstrate the game lacks synergies.

The problem, of course, is that he's wrong. The last time I had to think about that stuff was this weekend...shortly before I lost my 42 nightmare wizard. She had found a nice legendary glove that gave 12% bonus to fire damage. I then went through all of my spells and found all the fire damage I could do. The one thing that I wasn't able to do was use a fire based hydra.

Did it suck? Yes. I wanted to use a fire based hydra. It's in the game, though. I simply had to level up from 42 to late 50's. I pushed all weekend and then went to pop a chest when my friends had already moved on after clearing the map. The chest popped and along with the loot came a couple adds. I died.

It sucked. If I had used a bunch of ice spells and teleport I would have lived through the ambush. I made a choice. It wasn't the most optimal HC build but it was fun. I found it fun anyway because I always play my wizards like nukers. I was equipped with a bow. I had a more badass wand but I had opted for a decent bow with a +20 xp bonus and a sweet animation. When I died I was using a different bow that I had just found off an elite pack that lost my +xp bonus but it had an awesome fire damage enhancement and around 190 intelligence (dps and resistance). Both of the bows had a lower DPS number than the wand and source I left in my stash.

All of this was at level 42. I was selling my blues on the AH because the HC economy is not borked and level 11-40 gear is actually relevant, useful, and sells. I sell my finds but I don't buy because I enjoy the hunt.

I'm currently leveling another wizard. She's at 20 and using a sword with +xp.


A few weeks ago I had a similar experience on SC. I found a WKL (monk fist). It gives 20% lightening damage. I read up on the sweeping wind mechanics. I then used that info about how sweeping wind procs off the damage of the weapon in use.

I reworked my character build.
Fists of thunder deals lightening damage (synergizes with my fist weapon)
Blinding flash with the rune I chose stuns the enemies while I melee them, makes them have a miss chance while I'm meleeing them, and also gives me 30% holy damage increase. (also, holy damage kills things dead...they can't be resurrected).

breath of heaven heals me and then increases damage by 15% for a few seconds.
mantra of conviction mantra causes creatures to take more damage and the rune I chose causes them to take quadruple damage (48%) upon activation.

Sweeping wind rune that I chose procs with lightening damage (synergizes with my WKL).


So I move in for a melee attack, pop mantra, breath of heaven, blinding flash, and then sweeping wind and my lightening procs get all of those extra damage modifiers and by the time they are unstunned I can serenity and do it all over again.

I'm not sure how much more synergy one could want.

Although I'm trying. As I noted last response. I don't want Inna's set to be worthless. So I'm working on seeing if the reduced cost of sweeping wind makes up for the lost +elemental damage from my WKL.

That's a lot of choice. In fact, it's not quite clear which one is BiS. It definitely has little to do with the DPS number on the weapon.


When I mentioned a possible build that would synergize with Aix' proposed melee dagger wielding DH he rejected it out of hand. In fact he was totally lost as to why I'd point out that freeze proc'ing daggers existed in the game. He didn't appear to give it much thought. At least you noted that you weren't aware of that mechanic and even mentioned you started to see what I was getting at.

The game is a lot deeper than he and others are giving it credit for. It doesn't need to have a skill specifically tailored to add 20% dagger damage. That would leave sword wielders ass out, for one thing.

What he can do right now, without any effort from Blizzard's end, is find a dagger with a freeze proc and high crit *chance* and stack crit and run around melee'ing enemies and one-shotting them when they shatter. DPS would figure very little in that scenario. But he either doesn't want to learn about the game mechanics at a deep level and dig through his skills and/or can't bring himself to use a weapon that suits his play style better even though it has a lower DPS tag on the header.

But that isn't Blizzard's fault.
 
Glad you like the game so much and it perfectly fits all your needs. Meanwhile, procs and other skill synergies on weapons and items create a marginal effect, albeit one that can be substantial when mix/maxing at the high end. That being said, it makes very little difference in how the game plays and finding that type of gear with the other trifecta stats you need is incredibly, incredibly rare.

And of course, we can go read up outside the game on how this whole weird math problems work out; or it could be a hell of a lot more intuitive and make common sense.
 
mope54 said:
When I mentioned a possible build that would synergize with Aix' proposed melee dagger wielding DH.
Click to expand...

Show me the build you suggested that I dismissed. In fact, show me *any* build that you have suggested. "Get a dagger with freeze proc"? Bows can have the freeze proc too, and that is not even close to you suggesting a build.

I'm not going to bother refuting anything else since your reading comprehension is clearly lacking.
 
TwistedAegis said:
Glad you like the game so much and it perfectly fits all your needs. Meanwhile, procs and other skill synergies on weapons and items create a marginal effect, albeit one that can be substantial when mix/maxing at the high end. That being said, it makes very little difference in how the game plays and finding that type of gear with the other trifecta stats you need is incredibly, incredibly rare.

And of course, we can go read up outside the game on how this whole weird math problems work out; or it could be a hell of a lot more intuitive and make common sense.
Click to expand...


What do you need trifecta for?
 
Bah everyone wears prowlers.

So did that patch with more crafting and dueling make it live?

I'm thinking about trying this shit out again, as it's been awhile.

Also, regarding weapon dmg type... if there is a cold weapon mechanic in the game, does that mean there is also poison and fire mechanics for weapons which do this sort of damage?
 
chockomonkey said:
Bah everyone wears prowlers.

So did that patch with more crafting and dueling make it live?

I'm thinking about trying this shit out again, as it's been awhile.

Also, regarding weapon dmg type... if there is a cold weapon mechanic in the game, does that mean there is also poison and fire mechanics for weapons which do this sort of damage?
Click to expand...

Yeah you can duels and have better crafting. For me dueling had about 5 hours worth of entertainment and crafting about 8.

I was able to upgrade my wizard off of prowlers with newly crafted razorspike. Also got some good monk gear as well but still have my 300k gear on my monk (haven't played in 20 days)

81 strength
227 int
64 vit
51 litres
35 allres
181 armor
5.5 crit

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/dirkdirden-1579/hero/10075789
 
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