cageymaru

Fully [H]
Joined
Apr 10, 2003
Messages
20,733
Capcom accidentally left a developer branch of Devil May Cry 5 public that didn't have Denuvo copy protection added to the files. A Steam user created a guide for downloading the file, but Capcom took the file down. Digital Foundry has tested the file to see the performance difference between Denuvo on and off. They experienced a 7% difference in performance between the builds, but only at low resolutions. Devil May Cry 5 is fairly light on CPU usage according to Richard Leadbetter. I included images showing the performance difference from the Steam user that created the guide. Left is with Denuvo enabled and right is without Denuvo.

Assuming that the only difference between the two builds is indeed the inclusion of Denuvo, or the lack of it, the evidence looks conclusive. On the one hand, modern gaming PCs should have the CPU overhead to run the extra load incurred by what our tests suggests to be the Denuvo DRM. However, on the other hand, the notion of any DRM system incurring a seven per cent in-game hit to performance on a processor as capable as the Core i5 8400 (which runs six cores at a peak 3.8GHz) is certainly concerning. We've approached Capcom for comment and will update with any further information.
 

Axehandler

Gawd
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
635
this says it all....

3858685697_cdaccff36d_o.jpg
 

Flogger23m

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
11,983
In before DRM apologists claiming Denuvo has no impact...

Seriously, I wonder how Denuvo is still in business.

Number of reasons. Big companies have to appease shareholders that they're "doing something" to protect profits, although we know that is sketchy at best. Or they made long term licensing deals to use it (think EA, Ubisoft). Finally, cracking it has been inconsistent. Until a few other groups come around so each game is cracked within a few days, including DLC and patches, developers will continue to use it hoping they release a game when a cracking group decides to take a 4-6 month break. Right now most of the stuff is cracked in at least some form, but if one of the groups leaves again you're back to long waits especially for DLC/updates.

We'll see how this goes forward in the next half year or so.
 

DocNo

Gawd
Joined
Apr 23, 2012
Messages
662
Nice to have confirmation of the obvious for once. Thanks Capcom!
 

Derangel

Fully [H]
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
19,785
In before DRM apologists claiming Denuvo has no impact...

Seriously, I wonder how Denuvo is still in business.

It’s relatively cheap and likely easy to implement at the end of development. Until recently it’s usually given games a week or more before pirates could get their hands on it. In an industry that believes every shared or pirated copy of a game is a lost sale that invaluable.
 

Nenu

[H]ardened
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
19,916
In before DRM apologists claiming Denuvo has no impact...

Seriously, I wonder how Denuvo is still in business.
Its about getting a period of time where there is no option but to buy the product if you want to play it early.
A lot of money is made around the launch.
They know it wont last forever or very long for that matter.
 

GoldenTiger

Fully [H]
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
22,522
Its about getting a period of time where there is no option but to buy the product if you want to play it early.
A lot of money is made around the launch.
They know it wont last forever or very long for that matter.
This. And shame on pirates. Especially those arrogant enough to post in this thread.
 

Ebernanut

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Messages
1,557
Its about getting a period of time where there is no option but to buy the product if you want to play it early.
A lot of money is made around the launch.
They know it wont last forever or very long for that matter.

If this is there reason(which it likely is) they should include drm at launch with the understanding that it will be removed(not merely disabled) in a short period of time, I think this would greatly decrease the incentive to crack drm since it would reduce bragging rights and mostly appease those that are philosophically opposed to drm.

There are several games in the last few years with denuvo that I would have payed more for if they had taken that approach. Unfortunately I think those making the decision are reacting to fear which tends to make people less rational and more susceptible to fear mongering by the drm companies, they also don't give a shit about user experience beyond how they think it will impact their bottom line.
 

zkostik

Gawd
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
929
The pirated version will be about 7% better it seems. I bet it loads faster too and has a smaller executable. It pays to not pay.

So long as you don't mind taking the risk with that crack or whatever ships with your warez. Far too many have malicious code or malware so if performance is your only goal, just overclock your box. It's free and comes with no malware.
 

Nafensoriel

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
382
The actual effects of denuvo will depend on how it was used. Frontier is an example of a company that goes ape using it and as such their products are extremely difficult to crack.

It still astounds me that people defend it as a DRM solution. Piracy isn't really up for debate against it. It's a terrible idea that costs a ton for barely any benefits.

Do you know the one DRM that's actually worked to convert pirates to buyers? Making your game moddable and restricting mods to a workshop such as steam. Can it be bypassed? Yes. Will the average pirate know enough or care enough to go that far? No.
 

Derangel

Fully [H]
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
19,785
The article is interesting. They say that at normal settings they saw no difference. The only way they saw a difference was to run the game at 480p with interlaced mode on. The test definitely points to Denuvp having some impact on CPU performance but they could only make it noticeable at extremely low settings. It will be interesting to see what other results they get with further testing.
 

DrDoU

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
2,702
cant even get on steam to download my copy.this is bullshit.so i dont know if there is a performance hit
 

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
5,875
This. And shame on pirates. Especially those arrogant enough to post in this thread.
Yea you terrible people for not paying. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to pick up my copy with this handbag. Which is odd since PC doesn't have physical games or for that matter a local store that carries them.

illegal_torrent_internet_piracy_large_tote_bag-r580658739a8a4400a08140ffa7f56555_v9w72_8byvr_307.jpg
 

Krenum

Fully [H]
Joined
Apr 29, 2005
Messages
18,457
Yea you terrible people for not paying. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to pick up my copy with this handbag. Which is odd since PC doesn't have physical games or for that matter a local store that carries them.

View attachment 146889

That is rather odd. But it does make sense since the data is invisible.
 

GoldenTiger

Fully [H]
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
22,522
Yea you terrible people for not paying. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to pick up my copy with this handbag. Which is odd since PC doesn't have physical games or for that matter a local store that carries them.

View attachment 146889
Always some excuse for not paying what's due for pirates.... Yar matey, how have fun being a crook. Wouldn't want to pay for what you use.
 

ChadD

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
5,430
This. And shame on pirates. Especially those arrogant enough to post in this thread.

I pirate... DRM laden crap. I spend more then enough on games every year... I don't feel bad about it in the least. I'm a Linux only user.... the only games I can't run just fine are ones riddled with malware. There are plenty of games that won't run under Linux officially.... yet the cracked versions, run flawlessly and when you factor in 7-10% performance hits on windows for stupid malware DRM, that small hit using DXVK or VKD3D are completely offset. That will be the day I let any software company have access to my kernel space on purpose so they can run a DRM check... I'll turn in my geek card Dennovejunk is malware. Really the gaming companies should be thankful that none of the nice game cracking folks have used their "Crack" method as an injection point. If one was inclined it would be trivial to use the same crack keys to inject just about anything into a running kernal on users playing said games. Heck it wouldn't even be that hard.... create an old school game trainer software, that uses the Dennovejunk crack to inject pretty much anything you want.

Game companies are playing with fire with some of these malware like crack protection schemes. The day some major title gets pawned via a malicous trainer or some other game related program like a parser ect.... and thouosands of gamers get turned into a bot net attacking the game servers, or worse. Its going to be a bad day for that companies stock prices.

For the record I pay for DRM lite product. I can live with Steam protection.... anything beyond that. Yes I will pirate it if I care enough to even want it. Truthfully very few games with heavy DRM even appeal to me. Good example though. EA and their malware origin service. My wife owns SIMs 4 and pretty much all the crap EA sells for that stupid game. I install the cracked version for her cause its just easier... runs in wine with dxvk flawless. Trying to install it with EAs origin malware forget it... not even worth the hassle.
 

GoldenTiger

Fully [H]
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
22,522
ChadD as I said... You pirates always claim some reason you're entitled to have things for free, be it silly or not. You're just as bad as any other pirate. Linux is no excuse. The solution to products you don't want to pay for is to not play them.
 

ChadD

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
5,430
ChadD as I said... You pirates always claim some reason you're entitled to have things for free, be it silly or not. You're just as bad as any other pirate. Linux is no excuse. The solution to products you don't want to pay for is to not play them.

If they didn't add DRM... I would pay them. Its that simple. I don't not pay for lack of funds. Most years I'm sure I spend grand or two on games. If a company purposely wants to make it hard for me to use their product... I will steal it and not feel bad about it at all. Same thing for TV shows. Where I am for instance its impossible to legally watch GOT without having a $150 TV subscription... we we get no HBO streaming option, and HBO sells the rights here to one cable company, who then lock HBO behind $100 of mid tier content before you have the "right" to pay for HBO. So ya I pirate and I don't feel bad about it at all. I pay for my netflix... and I spend another 1-2k a year on physical media as well. Make it easy for me to pay you and I will. Make it hard .... and I'll enjoy stealing it even if I don't really want it.
 

Azrak

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 4, 2015
Messages
1,042
"A 7% drop in performance for ALL legitimate copies of the game is WORTH IT if it stops just ONE pirate from stealing our software." - Generic Game Publisher to Shareholders.

Can you imagine the development meeting where the boss says: "No, Johnny, we can't add cool feature XYZ to the game because we need to keep 7% of CPU horsepower in reserve for the DRM we're adding at the final stage."
 

GoldenTiger

Fully [H]
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
Messages
22,522
"A 7% drop in performance for ALL legitimate copies of the game is WORTH IT if it stops just ONE pirate from stealing our software." - Generic Game Publisher to Shareholders.

Can you imagine the development meeting where the boss says: "No, Johnny, we can't add cool feature XYZ to the game because we need to keep 7% of CPU horsepower in reserve for the DRM we're adding at the final stage."
No, if you bothered to read the article/watch the vid... It only was that much at 640x480. At normal resolutions it had no real impact. Also, it's all about the Benjamins, as it's supposed to be for a company.
 

Nafensoriel

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
382
Just an odd bit of info some people may have a misconception on with Denuvo.
It's pretty cheap. 100kish per title isn't outside the norm for a AAA title for total costs.
 

MMitch

Gawd
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
807
Number of reasons. Big companies have to appease shareholders that they're "doing something" to protect profits, although we know that is sketchy at best. Or they made long term licensing deals to use it (think EA, Ubisoft). Finally, cracking it has been inconsistent. Until a few other groups come around so each game is cracked within a few days, including DLC and patches, developers will continue to use it hoping they release a game when a cracking group decides to take a 4-6 month break. Right now most of the stuff is cracked in at least some form, but if one of the groups leaves again you're back to long waits especially for DLC/updates.

We'll see how this goes forward in the next half year or so.

Like there's a "real" metric on that lol... There's a lot of people that would pay for it just because it doesn't have DRM while people that pirate it wouldn't even buy it in the first place.
So pleasing shareholders can be against what shareholders actually wants because they don't understand the market ? Who would of thought about it ?

CEO been paid for been CEO I guess ? EDIT:: /equifax
 

Derangel

Fully [H]
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
19,785
Like there's a "real" metric on that lol... There's a lot of people that would pay for it just because it doesn't have DRM while people that pirate it wouldn't even buy it in the first place.
So pleasing shareholders can be against what shareholders actually wants because they don't understand the market ? Who would of thought about it ?

CEO been paid for been CEO I guess ? EDIT:: /equifax

You tell the person you're quoting that there isn't a real metric on what they are saying and then pull BS out of thin air as well. There is zero proof that "a lot" of people would be a game without DRM, just as there is no real proof that things like Denuvo cause pirates to buy the game because they can't pirate it. Realistically speaking, I'd imagine having Denuvo or not having it has no effect what so ever on sales. There are far too many other factors that decide sales than the rabid anti-DRM or anti-pirate brigades pissing and moaning at each other all over the internet. So, for AAA companies if they can spend a tiny amount of money, appease shareholders, and not have it effect their bottom line, then they will view Denuvo as having no downside.
 

Flogger23m

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
11,983
You tell the person you're quoting that there isn't a real metric on what they are saying and then pull BS out of thin air as well. There is zero proof that "a lot" of people would be a game without DRM, just as there is no real proof that things like Denuvo cause pirates to buy the game because they can't pirate it. Realistically speaking, I'd imagine having Denuvo or not having it has no effect what so ever on sales. There are far too many other factors that decide sales than the rabid anti-DRM or anti-pirate brigades pissing and moaning at each other all over the internet. So, for AAA companies if they can spend a tiny amount of money, appease shareholders, and not have it effect their bottom line, then they will view Denuvo as having no downside.

I think it is a more complex issue than many make it out to be. Most people pirate something to avoid paying for it regardless of DRM or whatever other principles. If they cannot pirate it most would probably not bother paying, or at least not full price on launch day. But if DRM became truly effective and games were simply not being cracked I am sure many of those pirates would still want to enjoy the hobby and would be forced to buy some games. Now they probably wouldn't play as many games because they have to pay for them, but you might see some extra sales. But we'd need games to be uncracked for years before we'd see any notable behavior change. Otherwise there is always the cost benefit - the actual cost of the DRM, the testing, time, optimization and all that. In its current state I can't see it being worthwhile aside from basic Steam like DRM. Most pirates will be willing to wait a month or so for a crack because its free.

The next level of DRM will be streaming. Clearly this is the reason Ubisoft and some other companies and trying to push streamed games.
 

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
5,875
I think it is a more complex issue than many make it out to be. Most people pirate something to avoid paying for it regardless of DRM or whatever other principles. If they cannot pirate it most would probably not bother paying, or at least not full price on launch day. But if DRM became truly effective and games were simply not being cracked I am sure many of those pirates would still want to enjoy the hobby and would be forced to buy some games. Now they probably wouldn't play as many games because they have to pay for them, but you might see some extra sales. But we'd need games to be uncracked for years before we'd see any notable behavior change. Otherwise there is always the cost benefit - the actual cost of the DRM, the testing, time, optimization and all that. In its current state I can't see it being worthwhile aside from basic Steam like DRM. Most pirates will be willing to wait a month or so for a crack because its free.
As as long as they give us reasons to pirate, people will pirate.

DRM? Pirate it
Lots of DLC? Pirate it
Costs $60? Pirate it

I do buy games I like but it would have to be a truly good game, even still I don't pay anywhere near $60. With Dark Souls 3 I played the pirated version and by the time I was done with the game I bought it for $40, which is a lot more than what I would normally pay but it was so good and I wanted to PvP so I bought it.

1uivpf.jpg

The next level of DRM will be streaming. Clearly this is the reason Ubisoft and some other companies and trying to push streamed games.
They can try but nobody will buy.
 

OutOfPhase

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
4,308
If studios would routinely remove it after the critical initial sales window, I think I'd be a lot more sympathetic. I still don't like it, but if they had data showing it helped a lot for a short term - okay.\

But then be sane: remove it, and to offset any thought that piracy would then jump up - lower your price at the same time. Turn would-be pirates into legit buyers by offering a good value instead of nothing but downsides.
 

ChadD

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
5,430
The next level of DRM will be streaming. Clearly this is the reason Ubisoft and some other companies and trying to push streamed games.

Its a good point.... they will be making it EASIER to buy. Streaming is going to have some heavy bandwidth requirements for a smooth experience. Still ya long term its a better solution for everyone.

Like netflix... its not as good as physical media. But the value is undeniable. Thousands of dollars of content for a low monthly fee.

No game streaming service is even going to be able to charge the price of one AAA title a month. What is the max people will pay ? $30 a month... $40 perhaps.

Network issues aside. Streaming does solve everyones problems. Game companies don't need DRM. We can all stop complaining about it. Pirating becomes impossible.... and unneeded. Just look at video content... the top pirated stuff is HBO stuff which isn't easy to stream outside the US... where as Netflix originals are not heavily pirated cause whats the point. The only real consumer level issue will be competition... in order to ensure a Google or Amazon or MS / Sony don't slowly raise the sub cost or make the deal progressively less then, we will need actual competition. If one streaming service ends up with the majority of the market it could get ugly.
 

bugleyman

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 27, 2010
Messages
1,227
In before DRM apologists claiming Denuvo has no impact...

Seriously, I wonder how Denuvo is still in business.

Don't be silly...Denuvo does many import things, but somehow does then while consuming zero resources.

Denuvo: Violating the work-energy principle since 2014
 

DukenukemX

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
5,875
Its a good point.... they will be making it EASIER to buy. Streaming is going to have some heavy bandwidth requirements for a smooth experience. Still ya long term its a better solution for everyone.
So instead of having a 7% loss in performance we have a 700ms delay in everything we do. Also consider that if Suse has a Switch Pro to stream games and Bobby has a PS5 to stream games, and Billy has a Xbox Two for streaming, can the internet connection handle it? We can barely get the average broadband to handle a single stream of 1080p gaming, let alone multiple gaming streams and maybe dad wants to watch Netflix at 4k.

Streaming will never happen.
Like netflix... its not as good as physical media. But the value is undeniable. Thousands of dollars of content for a low monthly fee.
It's going to be anywhere from $20 - $25 per month, at least. Plus I doubt new game releases are free and you're also at the mercy of the single online store you can buy them. Just remember who told you, FOAMY!

No game streaming service is even going to be able to charge the price of one AAA title a month. What is the max people will pay ? $30 a month... $40 perhaps.
$30 a month plus the cost of the game. Only old games will be "free". The problem is you incentivize shorter quicker games as they don't have to produce to make you happy.

Network issues aside. Streaming does solve everyones problems.
Except it makes more problems than it solves.
Game companies don't need DRM.
Streaming is DRM dude.
We can all stop complaining about it. Pirating becomes impossible.... and unneeded.
The more companies try the more easier it gets to pirate. This is a rule.
Just look at video content... the top pirated stuff is HBO stuff which isn't easy to stream outside the US... where as Netflix originals are not heavily pirated cause whats the point.
You should look up Kodi addons. Gaia is what I think it's called now? I don't use it, there's better methods.
The only real consumer level issue will be competition... in order to ensure a Google or Amazon or MS / Sony don't slowly raise the sub cost or make the deal progressively less then, we will need actual competition. If one streaming service ends up with the majority of the market it could get ugly.
One small issue is that Streaming sites become a monopoly since everyone is going to have exclusive content. You have this problem now with video streaming. Sounds great except it's anti-consumer as hell, that and lag and data cap issues.
 

Derangel

Fully [H]
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
19,785
One small issue is that Streaming sites become a monopoly since everyone is going to have exclusive content. You have this problem now with video streaming. Sounds great except it's anti-consumer as hell, that and lag and data cap issues.


The pirate anime guy is a fucking idiot with no understanding of the industry.
 
Top