Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter

[Ryom]

Gearbox?

According to the kickstarter page, all contributers will get DG2, regardless of the funding level reached (as long as minimum funding is reached). If they hit the million mark, we get DG2 NOW... if not we get it LATER.

So you put down $15, and they reach the $250,000 goal; you get DG1 and any new DLCs, and you also get DG2 when it is released. Two games, plus DLC for $15.

Hardly a deal with the devil folks.

 

[Derangel]

*excitedly clicked the link...*
*immediately disappointed*



This isn't true, because if they reach the $250K goal and nothing more, people just get a DG1 DLC pack (that may already be completed for all we know). If they get $500K, they create a new engine that they will later use commercially, and people get a DG remake (who cares?). For $750K, they release a level editor and ANOTHER DLC pack...

People are throwing money into this to get DG2, which requires a full $1 million. This isn't a Kickstarter for DG2, its a KS to help Gearbox Software. Gearbox claims everyone's money at $250K, but people only get what they want if $1 million is reached. Investors get pretty fucked at $500K, because they are basically paying Gearbox to design a new game engine, then use that engine on a product Gearbox will finish developing and then sell to them.



Yeah this is a pretty bullshit KS.

Everyone wants to think that all these game they invest in will turn out to be freaking awesome titles that will blow everyone away, but that won't be the reality. People should consider how many shitty games get released compared to good ones.

Why do people keep saying Gearbox when talking about Defense Grid? Gearbox had exactly zero to do with the first game, this kickstarter, or anything that comes from it. The developer is Hidden Path Entertainment.

 

[RanceJustice]

This may not be clear, but you guys do realize even if they don't hit 1 million, DG2 is still coming along with the stuff (Linux, new engine etc..) listed for the other tiers? It will just take longer and they'll have to grab funding from other sources as well, but they intend to do so. I figure it is a win-win. Kick in whatever you can afford above $15, be guaranteed Defense Grid 1 with its DLC and a new expansion ASAP, get DG2 when it is ready etc. I'd really love it if the thing would jump beyond 750,000 so they'd start on Linux stuff and multiplayer ASAP, but either way it will come. Hidden Path and Gearbox have done well in the past and I have no problem supporting them; most others won't either.

 

[Daggah]

Gonna interject here. I'm glad to see the tide is finally turning on this Kickstarter fad that so many developers have been enjoying lately. Finally some skepticism has entered the picture.

MG - I think you're missing part of Kickstarter's benefits for gaming funding..

1. If the goal isn't reached, nobody pays. You're not stuck funding a dud - if they basically abscond and try to run with the money or something after meeting their goal, or they simply don't get enough to fund development, you don't pay or you get a refund.

Then why the deceptive Kickstarter goals for this project?

2. At least so far, players are getting something for their investment and its a good value. The vast majority of kickstarter projects, even big ones like for Wasteland 2, are offering their games for cheap. Even if you discount the super special stuff, you can get a $50-60 game for $15-20. Of course, there are often lots of extras included in Kickstarter options that can range from the neat (getting a Founder title on your account etc...) to big business stuff (Being flown out to help develop the game, having your company's logo on the splash screen etc... and more.

The vast majority of Kickstarter games are indie projects that would never have sold for $50-60 even if they were designed as a regular game. And Steam games go on sale all the time. Paying in advance hardly seems like a good deal when you have no guarantee that the game itself isn't vaporware or going to be terrible upon release.

3. Often you are funding stuff that may have not gotten off the ground without being bastardized by major publishers. For instance, lots of KS game projects say "If we meet X, we'll promise to make this and our future games with Linux clients". DRM free options is another. There are also gametypes - like space flight simulators or sandbox MMOs: You can have games and features funded that would be unlikely to be funded by AAA cookiecutter Madden+CoD = Money. If I can fund a sci-fi sandbox MMO with a native linux client, no DRM, and get an eternal Platinum level membership (that will cost $100+ at release) and my name on a monument in game, by taking $50 I could spend on Corporate Shooter 2: The Shootening DLC Edition (or wait, I'd need to spend $60 for that today, wouldn't I?) and put it towards something I'm really interested in, that's a bargain for me

This is a laughable argument that I've refuted many times in previous KS threads. There have been plenty of small publisher and indie games in the last few years that had exceptional production values - no Kickstarter needed. And in this particular example, other people have already explained why they're extremely skeptical of KS being used for DG2.

 

[Daggah]

This may not be clear, but you guys do realize even if they don't hit 1 million, DG2 is still coming along with the stuff (Linux, new engine etc..) listed for the other tiers? It will just take longer and they'll have to grab funding from other sources as well, but they intend to do so. I figure it is a win-win. Kick in whatever you can afford above $15, be guaranteed Defense Grid 1 with its DLC and a new expansion ASAP, get DG2 when it is ready etc. I'd really love it if the thing would jump beyond 750,000 so they'd start on Linux stuff and multiplayer ASAP, but either way it will come. Hidden Path and Gearbox have done well in the past and I have no problem supporting them; most others won't either.

Then obviously the Kickstarter is just a money grab. I'll support them too...once they release their game...IF I deem the game worth it. No company deserves my support sight-unseen. We've all seen the epic failure that even the big-name companies like BioWare and Blizzard are capable of. Why is this company any different?

 

[FreiDOg]

Then obviously the Kickstarter is just a money grab. I'll support them too...once they release their game...IF I deem the game worth it. No company deserves my support sight-unseen. We've all seen the epic failure that even the big-name companies like BioWare and Blizzard are capable of. Why is this company any different?

I more or less agree in principle, but there are simply cases where a particular game just won't get a publisher willing to take the risk.
Kickstarter is a fine way of gathering community support in those cases. We all (most of us anyway) know what Defense Grid was, the sequel is unlikely to stray too far from that mold, and if people would like to chip in early and help the developer fund the project during the long, expensive and revenue-free process leading up to release, I think that makes a good deal of sense. It's a risk for the 'investor' sure; so it not going down this route and getting a 'this is all we could offer because if we didn't release now we couldn't afford to eat' sequel.

I will say, that personally, the only kickstarter thing I've put money into is the Tim Schafer / Double Fine adventure game. And that was mainly because Tim Schafer is a long time favorite developer of mine and adventure games are a shunned (by major publishers0 genre these days.

 

[mas]

Why do people keep saying Gearbox when talking about Defense Grid? Gearbox had exactly zero to do with the first game, this kickstarter, or anything that comes from it. The developer is Hidden Path Entertainment.

he's the only one I ever saw associate the two, obviously just totally confused. clueless haters on no particular mission, that's the way of the internets.

I don't doubt this project is genuine in every way. you can tell how they handle forum communications and community involvement, they really give a shit about this game and anything else that can become of it. doesn't look like many caught this, and I'm not surprised since they had very few viewers when I stopped by, but they just ran a 24 hour marathon on twitch a week or so ago to try and drum up some interest.

everyone in the company just took turns playing through their maps and chatting with viewers over questions and ideas, with family and friends stopping by in shifts for a day straight. last I saw they were super pumped about hitting the $200k mark, so I'm sure they're not sitting back and cackling with glee over these dumbass investors making them rich. if this is some "cash grab" I gotta say, they're going through an awful lot of trouble just to cash in on some mildly successful game.

as I understand it they're self-published, and want to keep it that way. those other indies you see delivering wildly successful one-offs are very few and far between, only achieving this through one of 2 ways - extreme luck and hard work, or selling their souls and all the publishing rights away for exclusive deals, just to get their code to see the light of day.

I don't see them taking the latter route, and I get why they want to be cautious if they didn't make a whole lot off the first release. build on their existing codebase with starting funds, and use that to gain momentum for a sequel, seems like a solid plan to me. why would they limit themselves to dlc and expansions if they could really afford to go the whole way?

 

[Ryom]

I'm still at a loss to explain some poster's reactions to Kickstarter in general. It's one thing for a nobody to ask for money, it's quite another for a company with a proven track record to ask for it. The latter has a reputation to lose. If they don't deliver they lose that reputation, their fans won't fund another kickstarter, and potentially they could go under and lose their entire business.

So for the cynical among us, go ahead and DON'T fund people that haven't paid their dues and proven they can deliver the goods. However, when a company that HAS paid their dues and delivered the goods asks for help remaining independent and gives their fans a way to contribute and mold their product directly, that is only good for us. If they don't deliver you're out a few bucks and they are out of a job.

 

[Ryom]

The first tier was successfully funded, DLC is on the way in December and then it's Defense Grid 2 after that. Congrats to anybody who backed it.

Thanks so much for your support of the Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter! Because of you and the other 6,000 backers, we’re able to move forward on Defense Grid: Containment for this December and then work towards DG2 afterwards. Based on your pledge amount and tier choice:

You are eligible for the following digital goods:

DG1 & DG2 Soundtracks
Ringtone
Desktop Wallpaper
Level Visualizer
Current Defense Grid DLC (already sent)
Private Forum Access
Defense Grid 2
Defense Grid content funded by this Kickstarter
Defense Grid: Containment
Defense Grid (already sent)

 

[Daggah]

I'm still at a loss to explain some poster's reactions to Kickstarter in general. It's one thing for a nobody to ask for money, it's quite another for a company with a proven track record to ask for it. The latter has a reputation to lose. If they don't deliver they lose that reputation, their fans won't fund another kickstarter, and potentially they could go under and lose their entire business.

So for the cynical among us, go ahead and DON'T fund people that haven't paid their dues and proven they can deliver the goods. However, when a company that HAS paid their dues and delivered the goods asks for help remaining independent and gives their fans a way to contribute and mold their product directly, that is only good for us. If they don't deliver you're out a few bucks and they are out of a job.

No, you've got it backwards. If anyone actually deserves the money, it's the nobody. The established business should have their reserve of cash in place to fund their next project. Why should the community be held accountable for companies that can't manage their own business?

Game development is a business. Just like any other business, making money should be an equation of risk/reward. I fundamentally disagree with removing or offloading the risk in business to other people. I mean, it worked so well for real estate and banking, right?

 

[Hornet]

No, you've got it backwards. If anyone actually deserves the money, it's the nobody. The established business should have their reserve of cash in place to fund their next project. Why should the community be held accountable for companies that can't manage their own business?

Game development is a business. Just like any other business, making money should be an equation of risk/reward. I fundamentally disagree with removing or offloading the risk in business to other people. I mean, it worked so well for real estate and banking, right?

No one is held accountable for anything

No one is forced to back it. You are free to purchase the game later on if you do not like the idea of backing a project. Kickstarter allows the fan to back a project should they choose to do so.

One thing you cannot deny is that indie dev will NEVER have the financial capabilities to compete with AAA devs because the bigger devs are financially backed by publishers. And making games takes money, there's no magical way around this. If your budget is limited, then the game content will always be limited too.

Here's where Kickstarter comes in by allowing the fans to fund the project which will in turn give the project a chance to be something bigger than what any indie dev can ever achieve on their own.

Again, there will always be a risk. Hell buying a $60 is risky too. But its up to each individual to decide for themself whether or not to take the different risks in video games.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

This hilarious. Back in the day, you made a game, and if people liked it, they bought and you made money. If the game sucked, too bad for the developers! Now developers are like, fuck that noise, you need to give us money first, and the more money we get up front, the better game we will try to make. If sucks, oh well, we still get paid. Taking lessons from the Bankers, huh?

And you Hornet, you sound like a marketing drone for HP entertainment. And yes, all the KS crap is getting annoying, no doubt. But hey, if you people haven't figured out how NOT to be a sucker, go ahead. Part with your money goods unseen, do the developers work for them by being their marketing department.

I actually get where you're coming from but lets face it, the simple fact is that in toady's market getting funded for a game that doesn't go straight for the casual crowd and maximises audience/profit is practically impossible.

Kickstarter offers gamers a way to fund projects that pretty much would not get funded any other way, there is absolutely some risk involved in that and everyone should understand that, however if it leads to successful releases then it's a good thing.

The PC market has become way too mainstream, everything is about mass appeal, casual appeal, dumbing things down and making them simple, porting it from consoles and raping the same franchises over and over, anything that can move us away from that gets my vote.

I've put in money towards several kickstarter and while they're risky it will be worth it if even just 1 of them succeed.

 

[drako]

All of the indignation that seems to sprout up in every one of these topics is overshadowed by the simple fact that the majority of these projects are getting funded. Clearly a lot of people do believe in the crowd funded model.

I missed this one but I would have contributed. DG was a great game, and I can't wait to buy the expansion.

 

[MavericK]

I actually get where you're coming from but lets face it, the simple fact is that in toady's market getting funded for a game that doesn't go straight for the casual crowd and maximises audience/profit is practically impossible.

Kickstarter offers gamers a way to fund projects that pretty much would not get funded any other way, there is absolutely some risk involved in that and everyone should understand that, however if it leads to successful releases then it's a good thing.

The issue with this particular KS (IMO anyway) is that the game already WAS popular and a lot of people DID buy it, so it's not like some obscure genre where it would never get funded anyway. The fact that they say DG2 will get made regardless kinda proves that.

I love the idea of KS for well-known developers that have been out of the industry for awhile and want to do something unique, or even up-and-comers that seems promising. But well-established developers with recent popular titles under their belt just screams, "give us money so if we fail, there are no repercussions".

 

[drako]

The issue with this particular KS (IMO anyway) is that the game already WAS popular and a lot of people DID buy it, so it's not like some obscure genre where it would never get funded anyway. The fact that they say DG2 will get made regardless kinda proves that.

You make it sound like they are sitting on DG2 development money and simultaneously asking for it through this Kickstarter. That isn't the impression I get from their FAQ:

But, as people donate and wonder if it can reach the full amount, they ask - what will happen, and the answer is we'll keep trying to make DG2, and we'll get a portion of the way because of you whether that's 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4 or more. And for anything we raise here, we will focus on delivering you the things we promised (that's a big deal to us - you're trusting us and we have to deliver for you to keep this partnership going), and then once we deliver everything we promised, we'll do what we can to come up with the rest. We'll sell the pieces that make sense to sell and use the proceeds, we'll work on other games for other people if we need to and save any profit, and we'll work to complete the full DG2. When we do - and that may be more than a year out if we don't raise everything needed in this kickstarter - you will still get a code for DG2 when it is released. We won't forget you or how you helped us get as far as we will get through this campaign.

Ultimately then it becomes a question of whether or not you take them at their word. And that is what will determine whether or not someone decides to contribute to this fund.

 

[Monkey God]

All of the indignation that seems to sprout up in every one of these topics is overshadowed by the simple fact that the majority of these projects are getting funded. Clearly a lot of people do believe in the crowd funded model.

I missed this one but I would have contributed. DG was a great game, and I can't wait to buy the expansion.

Lots of people believe in stupid shit, just look at facebook and reality TV. This is a reflection on the stupidity of people, not the inherent value of a product or funding model. Nigerian scammers keep on scamming, because there is a sufficient percentage of idiots who fall for it.

 

[MavericK]

That wording is really ambiguous. At first they say "we'll keep trying to make DG2" and then they later say that they will complete it (but who knows when). So yes, whether or not you believe/trust them is the question.

What I was trying to say is that DG was not really some small title in an obscure genre. It seemed to be fairly popular, and tower defense is a MASSIVELY popular genre right now.

 

[drako]

Lots of people believe in stupid shit, just look at facebook and reality TV. This is a reflection on the stupidity of people, not the inherent value of a product or funding model. Nigerian scammers keep on scamming, because there is a sufficient percentage of idiots who fall for it.

I think you are being overly harsh in your assessment of the backers of this and other projects, but whatever floats your boat.

That wording is really ambiguous. At first they say "we'll keep trying to make DG2" and then they later say that they will complete it (but who knows when). So yes, whether or not you believe/trust them is the question.

What I was trying to say is that DG was not really some small title in an obscure genre. It seemed to be fairly popular, and tower defense is a MASSIVELY popular genre right now.

I agree that they didn't do the best job in communicating exactly what their aims are. This probably isn't that surprising when you have game designers working as PR reps (just look at CliffyB). But I think what they were saying is that they believe they will have the capability to make DG2 by other means at some point. If they got fully funded through this fundraiser, then it would have removed the uncertainty in both when and if it will be completed.

 

[Daggah]

One thing you cannot deny is that indie dev will NEVER have the financial capabilities to compete with AAA devs because the bigger devs are financially backed by publishers. And making games takes money, there's no magical way around this. If your budget is limited, then the game content will always be limited too.

There have been plenty of indie/small dev games in the last few years with incredibly high production value and polish that didn't use crowdfunding at all. Your argument does not hold water. And it also doesn't apply when you're talking about a company that already experienced financial success with its previous project.

Again, there will always be a risk. Hell buying a $60 is risky too. But its up to each individual to decide for themself whether or not to take the different risks in video games.

Correction: buying a $60 game sight-unseen before it's finished is risky.

 

[TisforTurbo]

Bumping this because it looks like Defense Grid 2 is a go! Their Kickstarter didn't raise enough $$$ but someone else came through, I'm excited.

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/04/25/defense-grid-2-development-under-way-coming-first-half-of-2014/

 

[mlapgw]

Bumping this because it looks like Defense Grid 2 is a go! Their Kickstarter didn't raise enough $$$ but someone else came through, I'm excited.

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/04/25/defense-grid-2-development-under-way-coming-first-half-of-2014/

right fucking on! I love this game.