Creative versus Daniel_K

styckx said:
That forum is a disaster and full of kiddies spamming lame pics, inaccurate facts and general stupidity. Anyone that says anything remotely true or using common sense is shunned upon, a lame picture posted, or accused of being a Creative Spy.

Pretty awful

Hilarious to troll them though
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Are you talking about that zerotul256 guy? Man, that kid got PWNED. They posted his e-mail address, a picture from his myspace, and some other forums he belongs to. Kinda felt bad for him, but there was some funny shit going back & forth for a while. I imagine it'll all be gone by the end of the day though as their mods sweep in and do a house cleaning.

I saw a post somewhere for a link that keeps unedited posts from creative that get deleted. Can't remember what it was though.
 
Zerotul was actually one of the ones borderline making some sense and the backlash fanboys did what they do best, resort to lame google searches of his info instead of fighting back with actual facts. When you have nothing to retort with lame pictures and google searches are your last resort.

Seriously though, 95% of that place is now band wagon jumpers looking to score website hits, and get some sort of validation that they "made a difference". It was nice when it first started and was pure discussion, then school let out, the kids put down their Nintendo Wiis for a few hours and it turned into an awful mess.
 
Indeed. It was like the Wild West in there.

At least the word is getting out in other places, though. I can't help but feel some satisfaction out of all of it. I remember back in the day going through hell trying to get hacked Audigy 2 drivers to work for my Audigy Gamer, since Creative offered nothing good in the way of drivers for the older Audigy once the Audigy 2's hit the streets. They use that tactic to force people to upgrade. Sad, really. Glad I don't have to mess about with that stuff anymore. On-board solutions are getting better and ASUS and others are putting out some pretty good solutions.
 
styckx said:
That forum is a disaster and full of kiddies spamming lame pics, inaccurate facts and general stupidity. Anyone that says anything remotely true or using common sense is shunned upon, a lame picture posted, or accused of being a Creative Spy.

Pretty awful

Hilarious to troll them though
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Lol is that you who just posted in the "never underestimate" thread?? Lol
 
Scroatdog said:
Indeed. It was like the Wild West in there.

At least the word is getting out in other places, though. I can't help but feel some satisfaction out of all of it. I remember back in the day going through hell trying to get hacked Audigy 2 drivers to work for my Audigy Gamer, since Creative offered nothing good in the way of drivers for the older Audigy once the Audigy 2's hit the streets. They use that tactic to force people to upgrade. Sad, really. Glad I don't have to mess about with that stuff anymore. On-board solutions are getting better and ASUS and others are putting out some pretty good solutions.
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Yeah, don't get me wrong, creative is awful, but I wish they would mod just a bit so people with brain can actually talk. Until then, I'll keep trolling the kids ;)

Anywho, how is [H] doing? I haven't logged in here since 06, still lurk but I figured this would be the easiest place to go that a rational discussion of it could actually happen.


EDIT: Yes that was me ;)
 
styckx said:
Yeah, don't get me wrong, creative is awful, but I wish they would mod just a bit so people with brain can actually talk. Until then, I'll keep trolling the kids ;)

Anywho, how is [H] doing? I haven't logged in here since 06, still lurk but I figured this would be the easiest place to go that a rational discussion of it could actually happen.


EDIT: Yes that was me ;)
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Lol the "Perspective" thread is mildly civilized after you get past the toilet pic on the first page...poor guy who started the thread getting harassed a bit but a few intelligent posts.

I own an Audigy 2 and was pretty pissed at Vista support and it was probably going to be my last creative card anyways...I have been peeking at the forum to see if any moderators do on there to have something to say or if someone from creative speaks out but I guess that forum might be the last place they will post right now
 
supergrover said:
Lol the "Perspective" thread is mildly civilized after you get past the toilet pic on the first page...poor guy who started the thread getting harassed a bit but a few intelligent posts.

I own an Audigy 2 and was pretty pissed at Vista support and it was probably going to be my last creative card anyways...I have been peeking at the forum to see if any moderators do on there to have something to say or if someone from creative speaks out but I guess that forum might be the last place they will post right now
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They are watching, I went into a thread and the last post was from a mod (a petition thread) and the mod wrote "I merged this with the other one, no need to spam two threads w/ the same content".

I refreshed the page and the mods post was gone. Pretty weird
 
Based on what I've read from Ars Technica's blurb on this, if this situation doesn't change, I'll never buy a Creative card again. This includes the Auzentech Prelude; no offense to Auzentech, but I wouldn't want to benefit Creative for licensing the X-Fi chip any more than I already have; I'd look for a different Auzentech card or an ASUS Xonar.

So far, I've owned the following:

SoundBlaster 1.5 (back in 1992)
SoundBlaster Pro
SoundBlaster 16
SoundBlaster AWE32
SoundBlaster Live!
SoundBlaster Audigy
SoundBlaster Audigy2
SoundBlaster Audigy 2ZS
SoundBlaster X-Fi XtremeGamer

This isn't counting the cards people bought due to my recommendations.

I've not always been happy with some of Creative's decisions, and they've made some dumb marketing moves and stretched their advertising farther than it ought to have gone. Still, I felt they made decent cards, and EAX was important to me among other things. At this point, though, they've got the gun pointed straight at their feet, and the safety is off.

I don't believe this is about protecting intellectual property --fact is, driver-hacking would sell more of their cards, not less in this case, due to the additional features, and Creative wouldn't even have to provide support for them, and could disclaim responsibility. I think it's more about exerting control. And what with EAX no longer being in an option in Vista, and Vista breaking making many features of the X-Fi (assuming it isn't just an excuse on Creative's part), Creative isn't in a good financial position to use the heavy hand. Their profits are down, and a move like this is going to do them more harm than good. What ticks me off the most though, is that features are there, and Creative is disabling them, and not even planning to offer them. They're already THERE. Maybe a bit of licensing is involved, but it's a big win for them on features people want; it just doesn't make sense. It's not like they have an "X-Fi 2" that offers these when the X-Fi does not (though I wouldn't put it past them to release a relabeled card with improved software).

I'll admit, asking for donations probably wasn't the best idea, though, on Daniel_K's part.
 
styckx said:
They are watching, I went into a thread and the last post was from a mod (a petition thread) and the mod wrote "I merged this with the other one, no need to spam two threads w/ the same content".

I refreshed the page and the mods post was gone. Pretty weird
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ROFL The mods are on there now for sure...there is a thread just started for one of the mods to get that toilet pic removed that I mentioned...its kinda like when the parents go away for the weekend...all partying, but now we need some adult supervision lol
 
To me it is all a moot point now. Tried my Audigy 2 ZS with Vista and was not pleased with the results, even with the "latest" official drivers. While they may work OK, I am not a real fan of modded drivers, tho I admire Daniel-K for his efforts. CL should hire him.

I was even considering a X-Fi, but I never really saw a good indication of improved driver support from CL.

In the end, I reverted to my on-board Realtek optical out to a 5.1 receiver and I have not looked back.

Finally, the only compelling reason to get a CL card, IMO, is for EAX game support. Which leads me to this question: are new games being released incorporate EAX 3, 4, or 5 or are they incorporating alternative sound effects?

Just curious as to whether the game companies are staying with CL EAX or incorporating alternatives.
 
supergrover said:
ROFL The mods are on there now for sure...there is a thread just started for one of the mods to get that toilet pic removed that I mentioned...its kinda like when the parents go away for the weekend...all partying, but now we need some adult supervision lol
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Yeah, I had a PM from someone telling me to go shoot myself. I had fun photoshopping some stuff the first day this happened, posted a few pictures, started a few threads. Never spammed. I understand getting your frustrations out, but 4 days of it from the same exact people is just dumb. Dale should be banning people not locking and deleting.
 
JC634 said:
To me it is all a moot point now. Tried my Audigy 2 ZS with Vista and was not pleased with the results, even with the "latest" official drivers. While they may work OK, I am not a real fan of modded drivers, tho I admire Daniel-K for his efforts. CL should hire him.

I was even considering a X-Fi, but I never really saw a good indication of improved driver support from CL.

In the end, I reverted to my on-board Realtek optical out to a 5.1 receiver and I have not looked back.

Finally, the only compelling reason to get a CL card, IMO, is for EAX game support. Which leads me to this question: are new games being released incorporate EAX 3, 4, or 5 or are they incorporating alternative sound effects?

Just curious as to whether the game companies are staying with CL EAX or incorporating alternatives.
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Isn't there an open source alternative (ie. openal)? Not big into this but yeah, the problem is the eax stuff..
 
The only reason I got my prelude last year, because i got fed up with my Razer barracuda AC1 and HP1 in vista and was getting tired of using two sound cards and Velbacs. Plus I liked the idea of changing opamps without having to mod.

So I Did it for DD live besides EAX 3-5 , while doing Eax over digital, 5.1 in vista with my speakers in digital without having to use velbac and two sound cards.

And then Sound quailty with the opamps,DAC and change able opamps. I cant stand onboard audio and then onboard wouldnt beable to drive my headphones any way, I tried before my prelude came. Plus I didnt like the way it sound.

So it just depends on what you needs and wants are. onboard might be fine for most people, but not for people where sound quailty is important to them besides DD live and or they want to use eax3-5. And I didnt want to go thru the C-media Vista hassle I had so I didnt trust the Xonar.Because I wasnt about to go back to XP just to use the Razer I had in 5.1 .

Their are games that still using EAX3/4 instead of EAX5. Just a few that comes out that using eax 5.

Openal will still be a problem for software based cards, because they lack hardware openal. So if you using like a 5.1 setup, you still screwed.Because your onboard dont support hardware openal. So the game still will not work in 5.1 for you. It still would do 2 channel on your 5.1 setup. Your fine if your just using 2 channel setup like a headphone or 2.0/2.1 speakers.

Unless the xonar also convert openal games to it DS2x or whatever it called, which I pretty sure it doesnt just Direct sound based games. Since it dont have hardware openal, either since it is a cmedia based card just a diffent name on the chipset.

So either way, you still gonna need some kind of onboard or sound card with hardware openAL support to even be able to use your surround sound in openAL based games, I know you will not. Because I had a Razer barracuda which is cmedia based, which dont have hardware Openal. So you still would be in a bunch of mess if you was doing surround sound and trying to play a openAL based game. It will not detect it and goes your card does not suppor openal.

So basicy unless a new card come out in the future which supports Openal where the game will see it and let you use it. then your out of luck. Unless you switch back to XP from vista. which I wouldnt do any way.
 
95% of these problems wouldn't exist if Vista didn't remove DirectSound and switched to 100% OpenAL. I'm not a huge fan of OpenAL at all.
 
styckx said:
95% of these problems wouldn't exist if Vista didn't remove DirectSound and switched to 100% OpenAL. I'm not a huge fan of OpenAL at all.
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Atbest they still should had atleast had the new sound stack emulated Direct sound hal. or a code in the new sound stack that acted like the Hal in a way that alchemy wouldnt been needed.

Because Direct sound is still their, it just the hal for hardware direct sound acceleration isnt because of the hal not bieng their. The only thing good about openal is, that its open sourced .
 
styckx said:
95% of these problems wouldn't exist if Vista didn't remove DirectSound and switched to 100% OpenAL. I'm not a huge fan of OpenAL at all.
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Someone started a new thread about Zerotool being a troll.

Feed the flames, styckx. lol
 
This has got to be my favorite post of the day from over there.

FYI, you can use htttp://creative.edited.us to read all the deleted posts.

Probatus wrote:


Lulz @ zeratul256.
Courtroom clerk: Court is now in session. Plantiff zeratul256 vs defendant creative_stinks in a case of libel/slander on the creative labs forums.

Judge: zeratule256, you are a useless douchebag and a moron for thinking that your conversations on a message board represent a case for legal action. Unless you can provide proof that your forum alias "zeratul256" is directly associated to your real name and that its usage (usage of zeratul256) on the creative labs forums has caused undo harm or has had a negative impact on your day to day life you do not have a case. zeratule256 is not a known entity to any branch of the government and is not afforded the rights and privileges as such.
I eagerly await for your response.

creative_stinks to judge: Your honor, I hereby submit a writ of habeus corpus against Zeratool's child-sized nutsack and asked that the court clerk carry out immediate punishment in the form of a 10 1/2 sized boot to afforementioned area, with swiftness.

I refuse to argue any points with you further.
Your immaturity and lack of respect for others is apparently in great abundance.
Talking or otherwise communicating with you is pointless.
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maxius said:
my view of this is they should hire this guy he obviously knows their tech and can help their driver teams make useful drivers not useless ones ...
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Your statement is one of those, hit-yourself-on-the-forehead-master-of-the-obvious things that Creative should have done. Shit, pay the guy as a contractor for doing you a favor by getting your products to work for your users instead of deliberately turning it into crippleware and then trying to justify why you are crippling it. Yeah, to sell other product.

Nice little editorial on the subject that I just found: http://www.overclockers.com/tips01312/

While not a real parallel, this situation smacks of my newfound knowledge that you can take an Asus Maximus Formula and through a bios change you can turn it into an Asus Rampage Formula. Essentially taking an X38 board and turning it into an X48 board. Essentially the same boards, but crippled by Asus and probably not passing their chipset yield specs. Either way, it's intentional crippling in my eyes and this type of business practice should be stopped immediately.
 
Methadras said:
Your statement is one of those, hit-yourself-on-the-forehead-master-of-the-obvious things that Creative should have done. Shit, pay the guy as a contractor for doing you a favor by getting your products to work for your users instead of deliberately turning it into crippleware and then trying to justify why you are crippling it. Yeah, to sell other product.

Nice little editorial on the subject that I just found: http://www.overclockers.com/tips01312/

While not a real parallel, this situation smacks of my newfound knowledge that you can take an Asus Maximus Formula and through a bios change you can turn it into an Asus Rampage Formula. Essentially taking an X38 board and turning it into an X48 board. Essentially the same boards, but crippled by Asus and probably not passing their chipset yield specs. Either way, it's intentional crippling in my eyes and this type of business practice should be stopped immediately.
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What about AMD and Intel? Should they be stopped immediately?
 
As for my thoughts on the situation -- I don't have a Creative soundcard, but I have been following all of this on the sidelines, seeing how things go. Call me a sadistic man, but when the Internet acts this way, I think it is quite exhilarating. Of course, I'm simply having a laugh at Creative's expense. To put it simply, it's like a rolling mob of chaos, and this element of chaos, is such a beautiful and elegant thing that can only happen on the net.

To everyone and anyone, happy trolling! :D
 
Cyrilix said:
As for my thoughts on the situation -- I don't have a Creative soundcard, but I have been following all of this on the sidelines, seeing how things go. Call me a sadistic man, but when the Internet acts this way, I think it is quite exhilarating. Of course, I'm simply having a laugh at Creative's expense. To put it simply, it's like a rolling mob of chaos, and this element of chaos, is such a beautiful and elegant thing that can only happen on the net.

To everyone and anyone, happy trolling! :D
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Disatisfied creative owners and creative haters respectively have been offered the rare opportunity to publicly vent and troll. Several notable tech sites have taken notice and published articles supporting these sentiments.

Yes internet mobocracy at it's finest (and at it's worst for some i guess). Wish it would happpen more often actually, to companies that truly deserve it of course. While it is creative's right to purposely cripple their products, and allow them to be discontinued, it is also the consumer's right to withold future purchases, and vent their disatisfaction where allowed.

Looking back on it i'll bet someone regrets publicly admitting planned obsolescence.
 
hardware_failure said:
What about AMD and Intel? Should they be stopped immediately?
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in terms of what? With respect to their CPU's they don't cripple anything if they allow users to change their rated speeds and clocks with the understanding that if you hose it, your warranty is void. In the case of Nvidia, there used to be a 6800gt bios hack, I believe, that allowed you to turn it into a 4xxx series Quadro card. They stopped that by altering the physical trace(s) themselves on the hardware. So if you were the unlucky soul of dropping gobs of money on a 4xxx series Quadro card, you could have saved money and just done the bios/firmware/rivatuner hack.

In the case of Creative, it's blatant crippleware and it should be stopped.
 
Methadras said:
in terms of what? With respect to their CPU's they don't cripple anything if they allow users to change their rated speeds and clocks with the understanding that if you hose it, your warranty is void. In the case of Nvidia, there used to be a 6800gt bios hack, I believe, that allowed you to turn it into a 4xxx series Quadro card. They stopped that by altering the physical trace(s) themselves on the hardware. So if you were the unlucky soul of dropping gobs of money on a 4xxx series Quadro card, you could have saved money and just done the bios/firmware/rivatuner hack.

In the case of Creative, it's blatant crippleware and it should be stopped.
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Intel and AMD have both 'locked' multipliers throughout the years. Chips meant to be cel/durons have cache "blatantly disabled." This is also sometimes (and sometimes not) due to yields. I believe this is line with the case of your asus snd card and the 6800/quadro situation as a full on "hack" is needed.

Back to the subject of Creative - I totally agree with you, because the crippleware is strictly driver related. Cards that previously supported certain features THAT THE CUSTOMER PAID FOR no longer work in a new OS. Complete BS.
 
vista? hell i've had issues installing my creative audigy 2zs in xp ;) :p

all hail the end of creative!
 
A given Intel processor is advertised to operate at certain specifications, and almost always meets those easily out of the box. Is the hardware capable of more without stability issues? Almost certainly. Is the hardware even intentionally gimped by having a locked multiplier? Sometimes. But the point is that you got the features and specs you paid for. To that end, I can understand if Creative does not want people unlocking drivers to enable features that were advertised only for the X-fi on Audigy, SB Live, M-Audio Revo, or whatever.

The problem is that there are many features that were advertised to work on the X-fi, or even more in the case of the Audigy, and those features worked on those respective cards in XP, and they work in Vista with Daniel K's drivers, and they don't work in Vista with the drivers Creative would like us to use. And at that same time, they continue to sell X-fi and some Audigy line cards, advertise these same features, and list Vista as a supported OS. And then they also try to sell Audigy users ALchemy for $10 to use an advertised feature of the card they already purchased. I think this is very different from an intentionally restrained piece of hardware which still achieves it's advertised specifications, whether it be an Intel CPU or a nVidia graphics card or whatever.

It would be different if none of these cards had been on the market for a couple years. Then you could reasonably say, the support cycle for this product is past, and it worked on the hardware that existed at the time, and Creative can't be expected to support it forever.

Anyways this is all very old news and it's only bigger news now thanks to slashdot posting after Daniel K got shut down.
 
supergrover said:
There is a thread over here
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1291220&highlight=creative

...asking Kyle to post a sound card review, possibly pitting the X-FI against an Asus and possibly a high end integrated solution on Vista.

Wouldn't mind seeing something like this on [H] as I think they would do a good job with this.
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That would be easy, the X-Fi would win. The ASUS loses with EAX 2.0 support. That's a tough pill to swallow if you game alot. You might as well just use onboard sound.

Speaking of EAX, I thought EAX was started out supposedly to be "open" and part of Direct Sound and all companies could use it. So why did Creative change their tune?
 
Last I checked, it was at like 215 pages. Over 4k guests viewing the site as well.

I bet Creative is hard at working thinking how they plan to clean this mess up.

I wont be buying Creative, that's for sure.
 
Met-AL said:
That would be easy, the X-Fi would win. The ASUS loses with EAX 2.0 support. That's a tough pill to swallow if you game alot. You might as well just use onboard sound.

Speaking of EAX, I thought EAX was started out supposedly to be "open" and part of Direct Sound and all companies could use it. So why did Creative change their tune?
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ASUS has drivers designed to emulate EAX, providing a pseudo-EAX 5.0 compliance. Without a review, there's no way to say how good this emulation is, but it would be interesting to get a review to find out.

EAX won't last. It is no longer supported under Vista without using Creative's ALchemy software to translate EAX calls to OpenAL. So this may be an issue for now, but the chances Microsoft will restore DirectSound3D to future versions of Windows seems unlikely, unfortunate as it may be.

If ASUS' emulation is good enough, my next card will be an easy choice, assuming it's well-done with their budget Xonar DX 7.1 card. The emulation only has to work reasonably well until EAX finally dies...which is probably only one or two generations of games down the road.
 
Skillz said:
Last I checked, it was at like 215 pages. Over 4k guests viewing the site as well.
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Yup, and that kid zeratul256 is back on, from the looks of it, stirring up trouble.

Only a matter of time b4 they post his picture, e-mail address, etc. on him agian.. rotfl.
 
Yeah asus claims EAX 5.0 support...Creative was bitching at them about making that claim....I wonder if that emulation sounds any good/how much overhead?
 
Scroatdog said:
Yup, and that kid zeratul256 is back on, from the looks of it, stirring up trouble.

Only a matter of time b4 they post his picture, e-mail address, etc. on him agian.. rotfl.
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Yeah, really. I've read his posts, and it does seem like he's a clear-headed person... but just... a little retarded, maybe? I honestly can't see what he's trying to accomplish given his methods.
 
Scroatdog said:
Yup, and that kid zeratul256 is back on, from the looks of it, stirring up trouble.

Only a matter of time b4 they post his picture, e-mail address, etc. on him agian.. rotfl.
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Is it wrong that I have been keeping an eye on this most of this evening? Seriously...I actually have stuff i should be doing but I am enjoying watching it....
 
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