Craigslist Drops Personal Ads Because of FOSTA

DooKey

DooKey

[H]F Junkie
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Craigslist is no longer in the personal ads business because of the recently passed Allow States and Victims to Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act, or FOSTA. FOSTA makes a website liable for content from their users that include prostitution ads and other sex-trafficking content. Craigslist hopes to bring back the personals sometime in the future, but with current law hanging over them I don't expect it to happen anytime soon.

“Any tool or service can be misused,” the website said in a statement. “We can’t take such risk without jeopardizing all our other services, so we are regretfully taking craigslist personals offline. Hopefully we can bring them back some day.”
 
Where do you draw the line on this stuff? How many companies could be held responsible for what their users do with their products/services, where it's not in any way realistic for them to actually do anything about it? Hell, with no net neutrality, we are now only a short step away from ISPs being held liable for anything their users do on the internet. That would be the end of the internet.
 
GotNoRice said:
Where do you draw the line on this stuff? How many companies could be held responsible for what their users do with their products/services, where it's not in any way realistic for them to actually do anything about it? Hell, with no net neutrality, we are now only a short step away from ISPs being held liable for anything their users do on the internet. That would be the end of the internet.
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I agree. Slippery slope when you don't go after only the offender, but instead go after the hosting provider.
 
ironforge said:
I agree. Slippery slope when you don't go after only the offender, but instead go after the hosting provider.
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I don't think it's reasonable for a digital business to have zero liability for what it's services enable its users to do. If a service enables a repeated pattern of troublesome behavior to say "Not our problem." is not responsible business. Human trafficking, as saddening as it is to have to say in 2018, is a REAL problem.
 
SixFootDuo said:
That sucks. Truthfully, Craigslist personals was all garbage full of fake adds and spam and especially from sex workers. 95% of it was BS regardless of what city you were in.
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And then there's this, streams of crap. Which again isn't responsible business.
 
Thanks Rep. Ann Wagner and Senator Rob Portman for the SESTA/FOSTA sponsorship.. this should curtail my rampant semi anonymous, but totes drunken, 3a sexual encounters.
 
heatlesssun said:
I don't think it's reasonable for a digital business to have zero liability for what it's services enable its users to do. If a service enables a repeated pattern of troublesome behavior to say "Not our problem." is not responsible business. Human trafficking, as saddening as it is to have to say in 2018, is a REAL problem.
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but you have to draw a line somewhere. Without roads and vehicles sex trafficking would be much harder and not as common so the government should shut down all roads, also make it illegal to cross boarders between states and other countries. While at it ban all commutation outside if carrier pigeons as if you can't communicate then you can't setup routes and "orders".

The problem gets to how much can you reasonably expect a company to do. They can't hunt down everyone and make sure nothing bad ever happens. now if their service is designed in a way to encourage something that is one thing. If just used for bad reasons instead of the intended that is another.
 
Exavior said:
Without roads and vehicles sex trafficking would be much harder and not as common so the government should shut down all roads, also make it illegal to cross boarders between states and other countries.
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But we make changes to roads all of the time when we realize things like "There's a problem at this particular intersection with the number of collisions."
 
CL used to be better, true, in the Bay Area I could always find a nice looking 'friend' w/o a fee.

The way to stop trafficking is to legalese and bring the industry out into the open, like Nevada, only better.
 
I was curious, so I just took a look at my local craigslist page...

upload_2018-3-23_15-52-54.png


The personals section is still there. Only thing that seems to be missing is the "missed connections" section, which is kind of weird.

If anything, you'd think the "casual encounters" section would be the first to go for a concern like this.
 
heatlesssun said:
But we make changes to roads all of the time when we realize things like "There's a problem at this particular intersection with the number of collisions."
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however you don't see them shut it down or start to remove 100% of the fault from the drivers and make the paving company or engineering firm be the ones held responsible for every accident or speeding ticket.

with a law like that hardocp is 100% financially responsible for anything sold between it's users. so if I post selling a 1080 video card and you buy it and instead i send you a 680, then Kyle owns you the different and goes to jail for fraud. If two people on here PM each other to meet and then one of them kills or assaults the other then Kyle goes to jail for that and pays for wrongful death. Making the site be the one fully liable and responsible for 100% of the user generated content and commutation doesn't help fix their issues and is just going to result in everyone greatly changing their rules to prevent damn near everything
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I was curious, so I just took a look at my local craigslist page...

View attachment 61269

The personals section is still there. Only thing that seems to be missing is the "missed connections" section, which is kind of weird.

If anything, you'd think the "casual encounters" section would be the first to go for a concern like this.
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Click on one of those links. Mine goes to a message about FOSTA.
 
Exavior said:
with a law like that hardocp is 100% financially responsible for anything sold between it's users. so if I post selling a 1080 video card and you buy it and instead i send you a 680, then Kyle owns you the different and goes to jail for fraud.
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Yeah, I don't think that's what this law covers. The language is very much targeting prostitution and sex. I get what people are saying but at some point I think a site should be aware if it's becoming a pimp.
 
heatlesssun said:
Yeah, I don't think that's what this law covers. The language is very much targeting prostitution and sex. I get what people are saying but at some point I think a site should be aware if it's becoming a pimp.
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Right, when you browse the section and it is full of ads selling sex, it is hard to bring up the "yea but cars enable it too" when it is clearly being used as a catalog for these arrangements.

Some people just don't understand that to fix problems, something has to give. Everyone wants things to be better but not at the risk of any inconvenience to themselves. Which I wonder if it is really the case or do people just like to argue and fight against any level of change in this world?
 
heatlesssun said:
I don't think it's reasonable for a digital business to have zero liability for what it's services enable its users to do. If a service enables a repeated pattern of troublesome behavior to say "Not our problem." is not responsible business. Human trafficking, as saddening as it is to have to say in 2018, is a REAL problem.
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So what about the legit people who were not in the sex trade and were legal to work and offer services...
 
heatlesssun said:
I don't think it's reasonable for a digital business to have zero liability for what it's services enable its users to do. If a service enables a repeated pattern of troublesome behavior to say "Not our problem." is not responsible business. Human trafficking, as saddening as it is to have to say in 2018, is a REAL problem.
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I agree, but IMHO, if a business shows a good faith effort to moderate and combat illegal and abusive postings by users, that ought to be enough to prevent the internet company being liable.

Otherwise we could never have any service online where any user could post anything.

All it would take would be one asshat coming in here and posting something inappropriate to get Kyle and the hardforums sued.

Putting too strict liability on the shoulders of services that host user generated content could end the internet as we know it.
 
Anyone see the clear concerted effort suddenly of all these large sites on the internet cracking down or limiting things, often with an excuse of protection yet harming a mass amount of legitimate business or discussion? There's no way this wasn't orchestrated by some type of public/government involvement, it's far too sudden and similar.
 
congress wants to stop everyone from getting pussy.

It's a Christian crusade.

Meanwhile, a bunch of congressmen are still hiring escorts on the side.

What's fucked up is... in an effort to stop sex trafficking, they have made it difficult for every consenting adult to get some action.

Sex trafficked girls are such a small subset of sexworkers.

It's like amputating both legs to treat an infected toe.
 
JerRatt said:
Anyone see the clear concerted effort suddenly of all these large sites on the internet cracking down or limiting things, often with an excuse of protection yet harming a mass amount of legitimate business or discussion? There's no way this wasn't orchestrated by some type of public/government involvement, it's far too sudden and similar.
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everyone is overreacting because they are unsure of the consequences. The 10-25 year prison time stiff penalty has got people scared.

They can't ban guns, but they sure can ban sex.

dumbfuck american politicians.
 
GotNoRice said:
Where do you draw the line on this stuff? How many companies could be held responsible for what their users do with their products/services, where it's not in any way realistic for them to actually do anything about it? Hell, with no net neutrality, we are now only a short step away from ISPs being held liable for anything their users do on the internet. That would be the end of the internet.
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This Net NonNeutrality shens is being challenged as we speak; and eventually this law will get challenged as well, and eventually fixed. In the meantime, the personals will just migrate to the "dark web", and carry on as usual.
 
They used similar argument years ago against USENET. Claimed it was a haven for child porn. Strong armed ISPs into dropping the free USENET service most offered. Result was the child porn migrated to subscription only services that were and are much harder to track down.

Thanks to FOSTA, the same thing will happen to the illegal trafficking traffic. Now law enforcement will have to get warrants to access subscription services instead of simply viewing the freely available ads.
 
heatlesssun said:
Yeah, I don't think that's what this law covers. The language is very much targeting prostitution and sex. I get what people are saying but at some point I think a site should be aware if it's becoming a pimp.
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but it is a start. If you make sites liable for anyone sold into sex trade because they responded to an ad for sex, or make the site liable because woman are being sold to fill the request for people looking to have sex that is opening the door for more. Today it is the site owner is the held responsible for anything sex related. Next it is stolen goods, fraud post, slander... This needs to be very carefully put in place and worded to only apply to the true issues / problems.
 
If there is even the slightest chance that Craigslist can be sued then they are not going to risk it. With the passing of this new law, they are now responsible if someone is sex trafficked on their service and can prove harm. Any police report, confession, conviction is all that's needed. Victims can now come forward and place blame on these companies. Before, companies were not responsible. It's also highly unlikely this law will change under a new administration because of it's nature. No one wants to see women/children sexually abused.

I doubt very seriously the personals section will ever return to Craigslist, ever. In fact, I can see services like Tinder, POF, etc being affected as well. This is a ground breaking law.

Here's an example. Some pimp is browsing Craigslist looking for young girls who are runaways, needing a place to stay or posting to the personals. In the past pimps would cruise bus stations, homeless shelters and city streets. The internet has made all of this much easier now. All he has to do now is pick up his phone and message her, befriend her, offers her a place to stay, etc. Being in a desperate situation she accepts. As soon as the pimp has some reasonable control of her be it, a place to live, clothing, food, support he then pressures her into turning tricks using services like Tinder, Craigslist, POF, etc. After days, weeks, months or even years ( if she is lucky ) breaks free from his clutches. With the help of a Church, concerned supporters, law enforcement, non-profits, etc she makes an inquiry to an attorney. I can absolutely assure you that any bottom feeding ambulance chasing attorney will take the her case. This law is very powerful. Craigslist does not stand a chance now. They will be sued. They will absolutely not want to go to court and will be forced to settle for a very substantial amount of money. Now, multiply this a 1000x .... a 100000x ...

No one is going to risk that type of liability. Period.

A lot of you guys are only looking at the problem on it's surface and considering the inconvenience this would cause you. The real picture here is that there are now some very real and very serious issues these companies are facing with this new law. There was no discussion or a drawn out run up to this happening. It literally happened in a blink of an eye overnight. This speaks to the severity/implications of the new law.
 
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heatlesssun said:
I don't think it's reasonable for a digital business to have zero liability for what it's services enable its users to do. If a service enables a repeated pattern of troublesome behavior to say "Not our problem." is not responsible business. Human trafficking, as saddening as it is to have to say in 2018, is a REAL problem.
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Then that means they can go after Microsoft for providing the means to access the web and TOR and Excel and enable human trafficking.
 
Exavior said:
but you have to draw a line somewhere. Without roads and vehicles sex trafficking would be much harder and not as common so the government should shut down all roads, also make it illegal to cross boarders between states and other countries. While at it ban all commutation outside if carrier pigeons as if you can't communicate then you can't setup routes and "orders".

The problem gets to how much can you reasonably expect a company to do. They can't hunt down everyone and make sure nothing bad ever happens. now if their service is designed in a way to encourage something that is one thing. If just used for bad reasons instead of the intended that is another.
Click to expand...
But, think of the pigeons, THINK OF THE POOR PIGEONS!!
 
Elf_Boy said:
CL used to be better, true, in the Bay Area I could always find a nice looking 'friend' w/o a fee.

The way to stop trafficking is to legalese and bring the industry out into the open, like Nevada, only better.
Click to expand...
#ThisShitRightHere

Stop demonizing sex and sex workers, make it legal, and the worst parts of it dry up.
 
Exavior said:
however you don't see them shut it down or start to remove 100% of the fault from the drivers and make the paving company or engineering firm be the ones held responsible for every accident or speeding ticket.

with a law like that hardocp is 100% financially responsible for anything sold between it's users. so if I post selling a 1080 video card and you buy it and instead i send you a 680, then Kyle owns you the different and goes to jail for fraud. If two people on here PM each other to meet and then one of them kills or assaults the other then Kyle goes to jail for that and pays for wrongful death. Making the site be the one fully liable and responsible for 100% of the user generated content and commutation doesn't help fix their issues and is just going to result in everyone greatly changing their rules to prevent damn near everything
Click to expand...
#ThisShitRightHere #2.

This law, tho admirable, is so badly written that it seems almost as if they did this on purpose to basically disrupt any form of dating/sex sites and personal hookups made via the web.
 
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