Consumer Reports asks Microsoft to keep supporting Windows 10.

[Susquehannock]

September 16th 2025

"Consumer Reports is calling on Microsoft to extend the October 14th deadline that will cut off free security updates for Windows 10 computers. In a letter to Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, Consumer Reports says the move will “strand millions of consumers” who have machines incompatible with Windows 11.

As noted by Consumer Reports, data suggests that around 46.2 percent of people around the world still use Windows 10 as of August 2025, while around 200 to 400 million PCs can’t be upgraded to Windows 11 due to missing hardware requirements."

Source:

>> https://www.theverge.com/news/779079/consumer-reports-windows-10-extended-support-microsoft

 

[MrGuvernment]

Microsoft does not care......If they did, this would of never been an issue. While I do understand the need to drop old hardware, how far back should we expect MS to support hardware? Considering Intel 8th gen and up support Windows 11.. that is a lot of hardware..

If people need windows that bad, wondering how many could actually run Linux fine for their day to day things they do on said devices...

 

[Lakados]

Windows 10 is marginally better than Win 11, marginally….

How about Microsoft just removes the garbage bloat and releases an OS that sticks to being an OS and doesn’t try to be an entire half-assed platform.

 

[Armenius]

Only took one post to mention Linux this time.

Let's not turn 10 into another XP/7 debacle. You can purchase extended support if you need it. Standard support was already extended a year for 10 over Microsoft's standard lifecycle.

 

[Aurelius]

I'm for providing healthy software support, but this is over a decade. Microsoft's very problem has been weaning customers off the expectation that they'll receive support forever. I do think Microsoft should be ready to patch old platforms for major security issues (we don't need another WannaCry), but there needs to be a consistent cutoff point that tells most clients it's time to upgrade.

 

[DukenukemX]

Microsoft does not care......If they did, this would of never been an issue.

Microsoft do care which is why they're doing this. Microsoft wants you to buy new hardware.

While I do understand the need to drop old hardware, how far back should we expect MS to support hardware?

Until it's reasonable. I gave my nephew my old Ryzen 7 1700 and he complained about not getting the Windows 11 upgrade. I thought I foget to turn on TPM2.0 or secure boot in the bios, but turns out Windows 11 doesn't support the Ryzen 7 1700. It does support the Ryzen 7 2700X, which is not that different of a CPU from the 1700. What logic is there to not support Ryzen first generation CPU's?

Considering Intel 8th gen and up support Windows 11.. that is a lot of hardware..

Linux supports a lot more hardware.

If people need windows that bad, wondering how many could actually run Linux fine for their day to day things they do on said devices...

Most people are not going to want to switch to Linux, as much as I want this. Most people will just forget about Windows update and continue to run Windows 10, which is like what 99% of what people do already. Microsoft is going to leave a lot of machines left compromised or at best as e-waste. One could only hope that people seek out Linux but that won't happen until their machines are riddled with malware.

Only took one post to mention Linux this time.

One post too late. What alternative do people have over Windows? What OS can you install on our PC that isn't Windows? I swear if you say Hackintosh.

Let's not turn 10 into another XP/7 debacle.

That's exactly what's going to happen. Ignoring it doesn't mean it won't happen.

You can purchase extended support if you need it.

Or just allow people to install Windows 11? When the time comes I'm going to install a modded version of Windows 11 onto my nephews Ryzen 7 1700. I'm not going to put Linux onto it unless Windows 11 starts to fight back. I'm not in the mood to reinstall an OS.

 

[techie81]

Windows 11 IoT Enterprise LTSC is where its at. Still slightly slower than Windows 10 but really good.

 

[Lakados]

Until it's reasonable. I gave my nephew my old Ryzen 7 1700 and he complained about not getting the Windows 11 upgrade. I thought I foget to turn on TPM2.0 or secure boot in the bios, but turns out Windows 11 doesn't support the Ryzen 7 1700. It does support the Ryzen 7 2700X, which is not that different of a CPU from the 1700. What logic is there to not support Ryzen first generation CPU's?

Ryzen 1 suffers from an implementation problem with fTPM that gave it problems in Windows 10, and it just doesn’t work well. There were tricks to force it on in Win 11 as it technically does function correctly but the performance is absolute trash and it turns the machines into a stuttering mess.

AMD issued a number of patches to try and improve the fTPM performance issues but ultimately went with advising users to install TPM modules instead.

AMD resolved the issue with an AGESA update but the fix is optional for board vendors to implement and in many cases the boards weren’t capable of handling the update so they didn’t get applied.

https://www.amd.com/en/resources/support-articles/faqs/pa-420.html

So yeah proper fTPM support on the Ryzen 1 platform is a crapshoot.

 

[sfsuphysics]

It would be nice for MS to stop putting massive pops ups to let me know support is ending when they put a hardware lock on the computer upgrading the OS, so it is largely irrelevant

 

[Lakados]

Windows 11 IoT Enterprise LTSC is where its at. Still slightly slower than Windows 10 but really good.

I’m deploying it where I can, but Microsoft only recently (within the last month) fixed it for Intune.

IoT Enterprise was not registering correctly with Intune for the purposes of rules and groups.

So if you created a rule that said do this on all Windows 11 devices, it would exclude the IoT Enterprise installs, but it would push it to regular Enterprise, Pro, and EDU deployments.

I have had minor problems with it when installing some 3’rd party programs too. In more than one case, I’ve gotten error popups from driver installs and packages that halt with an “unsupported” OS error, even though it would happily install on Windows 10 and the regular Windows 11 variants.

Minor PITA, but nothing terrible. Performance-wise, when gaming, it’s more of a sidegrade. There is clearly something different going on under the hood, but it’s not always a positive result; gaming on IoT can swing a few points in either direction.

 

[MrGuvernment]

I'm for providing healthy software support, but this is over a decade. Microsoft's very problem has been weaning customers off the expectation that they'll receive support forever. I do think Microsoft should be ready to patch old platforms for major security issues (we don't need another WannaCry), but there needs to be a consistent cutoff point that tells most clients it's time to upgrade.

Was it not MS who said "Windows 10 would be the last OS you buy" .... now that could be taken in any manner as Windows 11 is a free upgrade, but for the average person that means they can just keep on running windows..

I guess we should also give Apple flack for this as their support windows seems to be shrinking as well, and the change of entire platforms of course didn't help, but I think they are on a 6-7 year support cycle based on hardware...

 

[MrGuvernment]

Windows 11 IoT Enterprise LTSC is where its at. Still slightly slower than Windows 10 but really good.

but 99% of Windows 10 users have no idea how to get it, let alone reinstall an OS on their computers....

 

[MrGuvernment]

I’m deploying it where I can but Microsoft only recently (within the last month) fixed it for Intune.

IoT Enterprise was not registering correctly with Intune for the purposes of rules and groups.

So if you created a rule that said do this on all windows 11 devices, it would exclude the IoT Enterprise installs, but it would push it to regular Enterprise, Pro, and EDU deployments.

I have had minor problems with it for installing some 3’rd party programs too. I’m more than one case I’ve gotten error popups from driver installs and packages that halt with an “unsupported” OS error even though it would happily install on Windows 10, and the regular Windows 11 variants.

Minor PITA but nothing terrible. Performance wise when gaming it’s more a side grade, there is clearly something different going on under the hood but it’s not always a positive result, gaming on IoT can swing a few points in either direction.

Because "IoT" version was not meant to be used by everyday systems, so sure MS made sure to try and make it a little bit of a pain to manage and for people to just use it was an everyday OS, who do not know better.

Also the licensing required to use it as well, most companies do not have EA/VL agreements with MS...

 

[techie81]

but 99% of Windows 10 users have no idea how to get it, let alone reinstall an OS on their computers....

This is [H]ardforum.

 

[MrGuvernment]

This is [H]ardforum.

Yes, but this applies to the world, not just the 0.000000000000000000000000000000000001% of users on [H]

 

[Lakados]

Because "IoT" version was not meant to be used by everyday systems, so sure MS made sure to try and make it a little bit of a pain to manage and for people to just use it was an everyday OS, who do not know better.

Also the licensing required to use it as well, most companies do not have EA/VL agreements with MS...

I’m not so sure they tried with anything…
If I didn’t know better I’d say someone in management was finally handed the memo from SI’s from some 8 months ago where they were asking, hey so Win 10 is going away, but you haven’t offered terms for the Win 10 LTSC support extension what gives?? Then they realized they forgot an entire product lineup so they just scrambled to strip down Win 11 Enterprise, realized it was being a PITA so they tried building Windows 10 LTSB up instead. So it’s a bastard cross of both.

 

[MrGuvernment]

Windows 10 LTSC is supported until 2032 for security patches.

Windows 11 LTSC was always going to happen due to the added security features MS claims it runs over 10 and for newer hardware that may need to run for decades + with out a new OS install or upgrade.

 

[Lakados]

Windows 10 LTSC is supported until 2032 for security patches.

Windows 11 LTSC was always going to happen due to the added security features MS claims it runs over 10 and for newer hardware that may need to run for decades + with out a new OS install or upgrade.

Point is I still think IoT Enterprise was a half-assed afterthought.

 

[uOpt]

Microsoft does not care......If they did, this would of never been an issue. While I do understand the need to drop old hardware, how far back should we expect MS to support hardware? Considering Intel 8th gen and up support Windows 11.. that is a lot of hardware..

Well, obviously we can expect support for old hardware in the range that Win11 supports just fine with forced installs.

 

[Baenwort]

Windows 11 IoT Enterprise LTSC is where its at. Still slightly slower than Windows 10 but really good.

Are any LTSC versions legally gettable for a solo family? Every time Ive tried it hasn't been possible to get without setting up a fake LLC and going through a bunch of hoops.

 

[cjcox]

Yes, but this applies to the world, not just the 0.000000000000000000000000000000000001% of users on [H]

Finally Linux users can brag about their marketshare in comparison to something that is less.

 

[rufio]

Are any LTSC versions legally gettable for a solo family? Every time Ive tried it hasn't been possible to get without setting up a fake LLC and going through a bunch of hoops.

Avoid that MASSive headache and bury the fake LLC at a GRAVEyard.

 

[M76]

Microsoft does not care......If they did, this would of never been an issue. While I do understand the need to drop old hardware, how far back should we expect MS to support hardware? Considering Intel 8th gen and up support Windows 11.. that is a lot of hardware..

There is absolutely no reason to drop old hardware unless it is specifically incompatible with windows 11. MS doesn't support home users anyway, so it would be no skin off their back if they removed the arbitrary HW requirements. Unless they have an entirely different agenda.
When Windows 11 came out in 2021 it cut off HW that were literally still in warranty if you bought it new. This is far from normal. If you want to put a date on it, I'd say the cutoff point should be EoL+5 years. Since 11 came out in 2021 october, any CPU that was EoL before 2016 october can be reasonably dropped from support. But they dropped support for CPUs that literally launched in 2017.

If people need windows that bad, wondering how many could actually run Linux fine for their day to day things they do on said devices...

No, stop it. The answer is none. The people who reasonably can and want to run linux are already doing so.

Windows 10 is marginally better than Win 11, marginally….

How about Microsoft just removes the garbage bloat and releases an OS that sticks to being an OS and doesn’t try to be an entire half-asses platform.

But the garbage is the exact reason they want users on it so bad, if they removed that they might as well just keep releasing security updates for 10 for all.

Are any LTSC versions legally gettable for a solo family? Every time Ive tried it hasn't been possible to get without setting up a fake LLC and going through a bunch of hoops.

IDK who came up with the idea of LTSC being great for desktop. It's not, it's nothing but a headache for a regular home user who wants to run new games watch movies and browse the internet, edit photos, print receipes and such things.

LTSC is meant for a fixed set of SW that is used for one purpose and one purpose only. Like kiosks, ad displays, controllers for some specialized HW.

 

[techie81]

Are any LTSC versions legally gettable for a solo family? Every time Ive tried it hasn't been possible to get without setting up a fake LLC and going through a bunch of hoops.

Depends on your definition of legal. Massgrave is amazing.

 

[DukenukemX]

What people here don't get is that we're about to enter the three stages of Windows 10/11 bullshit. Specifically the [H]ard we because it's going to be you guys that are going to get friends and family calling you when Windows 10 will create a pop up message that Microsoft is no longer supporting Windows 10, and will obviously panic over it and as the only people they know that are computer nerds that can fix it.

Here are the 3 stages of Windows 10 to 11 acceptance.

Stage #1 Ridicule.
This is what we're doing now, which is making fun of the situation.

Stage #2 Violent Opposition.
This is where you download tools and modified the Windows 11 ISO to install onto basically any PC. Get your USB sticks ready because a lot of friends and family are going to hunt you down.

Stage #3 Acceptance.
This is when Microsoft wakes up and realizes that there's a lot of people installing Windows 11 on machines that shouldn't. A Windows 11 update will likely fix that and break even more machines. Imagine if your aunt can't even boot into Windows 11 because of a Windows update? This is where you pick your favorite Linux distro and replace Windows 11 for something that won't be a pain in the ass. This may take a year or two for Microsoft to do this but it'll happen to some degree.

 

[Aurelius]

What people here don't get is that we're about to enter the three stages of Windows 10/11 bullshit. Specifically the [H]ard we because it's going to be you guys that are going to get friends and family calling you when Windows 10 will create a pop up message that Microsoft is no longer supporting Windows 10, and will obviously panic over it and as the only people they know that are computer nerds that can fix it.

Here are the 3 stages of Windows 10 to 11 acceptance.

Stage #1 Ridicule.
This is what we're doing now, which is making fun of the situation.

Stage #2 Violent Opposition.
This is where you download tools and modified the Windows 11 ISO to install onto basically any PC. Get your USB sticks ready because a lot of friends and family are going to hunt you down.

Stage #3 Acceptance.
This is when Microsoft wakes up and realizes that there's a lot of people installing Windows 11 on machines that shouldn't. A Windows 11 update will likely fix that and break even more machines. Imagine if your aunt can't even boot into Windows 11 because of a Windows update? This is where you pick your favorite Linux distro and replace Windows 11 for something that won't be a pain in the ass. This may take a year or two for Microsoft to do this but it'll happen to some degree.

This is... magical thinking.

Windows 11 was released in 2021. If there was a flood of people looking to upgrade incompatible PCs to 11 in the first place, it will have petered out by now. And you're not going to exactly reassure everyday users by telling them to plug in a USB drive with a modified Windows installer.

And it's even more optimistic to suggest that Microsoft will not only keep breaking Windows over the next year or two to the point that regular users are frustrated, but that you can switch them to Linux and assume they'll be happier. Sorry, but this is the mindset that led to "20XX is the year of the Linux desktop" becoming a joke — it's Linux advocates confusing their own comfort in the OS with its suitability to everyday people.

Linux is easier to use than it was in when the meme kicked off in 2003, but the fact remains that the ease of use mainly applies so long as you don't deviate from a set of apps and usage conditions. It's like going on a guided tour in a risky city — you're fine if you stick to the path, but it'll be rough if you stray. Windows has its problems, but it's akin to walking a safe (if bland) suburb where you know you won't get mugged because you went down the wrong side street. And as much as you'd hate to admit it, a casual user so frustrated with Windows that they're ready to leave is more likely to get a Mac than install Linux.

 

[DukenukemX]

Windows 11 was released in 2021. If there was a flood of people looking to upgrade incompatible PCs to 11 in the first place, it will have petered out by now.

Nobody cares about updating their Windows and nobody really cares about upgrading to Windows 11. Guys like us would have done it by now, but not the normies. Microsoft will take the time to create a pop up to get you to go buy a new PC with Windows 11, which is an ad by the way.

And you're not going to exactly reassure everyday users by telling them to plug in a USB drive with a modified Windows installer.

They want you to do something about it, which is you installing a modified Windows through a USB drive. As far as most people are concerned, the computer is a magical box of fire and have no idea how they work.

And it's even more optimistic to suggest that Microsoft will not only keep breaking Windows over the next year or two to the point that regular users are frustrated, but that you can switch them to Linux and assume they'll be happier.

Microsoft will do something to deter this. If Microsoft wanted people with older PCs to install Windows 11, then they would. Either Microsoft stops Windows update and leaves a reminder that you're using Windows 11 on an unauthorized PC, or they'll go the nth deter and just create an error code that prevents you from booting.

Sorry, but this is the mindset that led to "20XX is the year of the Linux desktop" becoming a joke — it's Linux advocates confusing their own comfort in the OS with its suitability to everyday people.

So install TempleOS or ReactOS. I know you want to believe that this is all about the Linux Illuminati but what are you going to do if you can't update to Windows 11? You either find a way to install Windows 11 or install Linux, or go buy a new PC with Windows 11. Not exactly a lot of good choices here.

Linux is easier to use than it was in when the meme kicked off in 2003, but the fact remains that the ease of use mainly applies so long as you don't deviate from a set of apps and usage conditions.

Isn't that the case with any OS that isn't Windows?

Windows has its problems, but it's akin to walking a safe (if bland) suburb where you know you won't get mugged because you went down the wrong side street. And as much as you'd hate to admit it, a casual user so frustrated with Windows that they're ready to leave is more likely to get a Mac than install Linux.

If a person has no money then they're not buying a Windows 11 machine, let alone a Mac. People will likely continue to use Windows 10 and leave their machines compromised because they don't care. We saw this happen with Windows XP. The only reason they'll start caring is when they see a message from Microsoft that Windows 10 is no longer supported and their PC is now compromised, which will make people panic.

 

[Kid744]

I have Arch Linux on my other drive. I am gonna wait and see if they actually follow through on stopping support. (will not pay for it or do MS backups) Most games I am playing run fine if not better in linux.
It takes a bit of work, but if I have to go full time linux, I am excited for the challenge. (though I am win 11 ready, but don't want to switch)

Kid

 

[MrGuvernment]

No, stop it. The answer is none. The people who reasonably can and want to run linux are already doing so.

False, simple due to the majority of people in the world buy pre-configured systems from OEMs or other sellers and they come with windows, and that is what people know, so they keep going with Windows.

The next reality is, most "every day users" do little more than browse the web, use an email client, maybe (likely use web versions also) and maybe print some things, which linux can 100% do just fine and if you actually gave those people Linux, they prob would not even notice, but they do not know about linux, nor have someone, nor know themselves, how to install a new OS on their system.

 

[toast0]

Microsoft's very problem has been weaning customers off the expectation that they'll receive support forever

Well, maybe Microsoft shouldn't have been setting that expectation.

How about Microsoft just removes the garbage bloat and releases an OS that sticks to being an OS and doesn’t try to be an entire half-asses platform.

Would be nice, but doesn't seem likely. There's no incentive to make windows 11 good, because it doesn't change the marketshare meaningfully.

There is absolutely no reason to drop old hardware unless it is specifically incompatible with windows 11.

Yeah, if it can run windows 11, might as well let it without having to do secret knocks. It's one thing if they want to make some cpu extension a requirement, but otherwise why not let old cpus that still run work? Same with tpm, use it if it's there, but it doesn't seem to really be required, so why force it?

 

[Lakados]

Would be nice, but doesn't seem likely. There's no incentive to make windows 11 good, because it doesn't change the marketshare meaningfully

I hear rumours that the XBox division is tackling this issue for the upcoming console and for a series of handheld devices.

If the leaks are correct then XBox and by extension Microsoft is worried about the Steam Deck and PS6.

To combat it XBox is supposedly building very stripped down version of Windows they can license out to AIB’s so they can build licensed consoles (handheld or other).

Because IF the leaks are accurate then Microsoft will instead shift to a license model and an approved hardware list instead of building the console directly.

The biggest question I have if all of the above is true, is will Microsoft make that ISO available for consumer licensing.

 

[El_Capitan]

I feel like I'm doing less and less on computers these days (hard to believe). I guess not having worked in the tech industry for the last 8 years will do that. I'm finally focusing on Linux Mint (Cinnamon). For games (me and the kids), it's mostly on Steam (can't beat the price), very little on Xbox, and every now and then, League of Legends. For video editing, Kdenlive is the best, as it's open source and completely free. CapCut is too limiting and expensive (if you don't want to be limited), and upgrading versions causes too many headaches. Pretty much the same for all other video editors out there now. Photo editing is much the same, it's hard to beat free. Windows 10 Pro still handles HDR much better than Windows 11 Pro, and without the headaches.

I'll still have Windows 10 Pro around for entertainment, and for some production tasks, but my daily driver is now Linux Mint (for now). It'll be an interesting few years. Even if Windows 10 support is extended until a Windows 12 release, I don't have faith Windows 12 will be any better than Windows 11.

 

[M76]

False, simple due to the majority of people in the world buy pre-configured systems from OEMs or other sellers and they come with windows, and that is what people know, so they keep going with Windows.

Yeah, what you're saying is based on the assumption that if new PCs shipped with linux pre-installed everything would be different. But that is actually false. While in the US (and probably the rest of the western sphere) the majority of systems ship with windows pre-installed. Where I'm from the market used to be extremely price sensitive, and still is compared to the west. So adding even an oem home license to the price of a pre-built or a laptop can be a deal breaker for home customers. The result is that the majority of pre-builts and laptops up till the 2010s were sold with some type of free OS. Linux was popular at first, but then when they realized nobody actually wants linux they switched simply to freedos. (Because it is required by law that a new PC has to have some OS on it before it can be sold)

And as you may have guessed the market share of linux is not an inch higher here than in any wealthy western country, despite of it being the most popular OS on oem systems for at least a decade. Because what everyone was doing as soon as they got their new linux PC is wipe the pre-installed OS and just put windows on it anyway.

The next reality is, most "every day users" do little more than browse the web, use an email client, maybe (likely use web versions also) and maybe print some things, which linux can 100% do just fine and if you actually gave those people Linux, they prob would not even notice, but they do not know about linux, nor have someone, nor know themselves, how to install a new OS on their system.

The reality is that every day users are allergic to change, they freak out if an icon moves one slot on the desktop. So there is no way you can make them switch to an entirely new OS with entirely different programs and layout. If you actually gave them linux they'd cuss you out and demand you make it like it used to be, not an icon out of place. It's just like trying to make a Chevy guy switch to a Ford, it won't happen in a thousand years. But it doesn't work with enthusiasts either. That's like trying to force the muscle car guy to be a ricer from now on. People need to want linux, you can't forcibly switch them over.

 

[DukenukemX]

Yeah, what you're saying is based on the assumption that if new PCs shipped with linux pre-installed everything would be different. But that is actually false.

That depends. If you buy a PC with Linux installed then it'll likely cost the same if not more than a Windows PC. With the ROG Ally SteamOS Edition you actually pay more now compared to the Windows 11 version. You shouldn't but that's how PC manufacturers are doing these days. It's also likely that you can't just flood a SteamOS machine with preinstalled crap like you can with Windows, which maybe discounting the machine.

The result is that the majority of pre-builts and laptops up till the 2010s were sold with some type of free OS. Linux was popular at first, but then when they realized nobody actually wants linux they switched simply to freedos. (Because it is required by law that a new PC has to have some OS on it before it can be sold)

The decision to install freedos over Linux was probably to avoid confusing in what the laptops could do. Freedos was there because someone was going to torrent a hacked version of Windows and avoid paying more. Also, Linux 10 years ago was very different compared to today, let alone 15 years ago. If I got a laptop in 2010 with Linux then I'd install Windows as well.

And as you may have guessed the market share of linux is not an inch higher here than in any wealthy western country, despite of it being the most popular OS on oem systems for at least a decade. Because what everyone was doing as soon as they got their new linux PC is wipe the pre-installed OS and just put windows on it anyway.

Linux has has over 5% in both Europe and USA, and it has strong growth. Your statement doesn't make sense.

If you actually gave them linux they'd cuss you out and demand you make it like it used to be, not an icon out of place.

That depends. I've actually switched machines to Linux without the user knowing. I've put Linux on old Macs and made the UI look like MacOS with the startup sounds and even the animation. Same goes for Windows. It's very easy to get the UI to look and act how you want. This works because all the people did was browse the web and print documents, which you couldn't tell the difference between Linux and MacOS/Windows.

View: https://youtu.be/eTSO5xc-yhs?si=KNFHjvZZsIfAaY4e

It's just like trying to make a Chevy guy switch to a Ford, it won't happen in a thousand years. But it doesn't work with enthusiasts either. That's like trying to force the muscle car guy to be a ricer from now on. People need to want linux, you can't forcibly switch them over.

Think I'm getting a headache from this. Literally pulled the right head off my C5 Corvette after a lifter failed. Thanks COVID for all the bad car parts, because I may need to tear apart the engine for this. Good excuse to put forged parts in it. Gotta look at the glass half full. About to go upstate NY to work on a 92 Mitsubishi 3000 GT that hasn't ran in over 10 years, which does run now. If you're a car guy then you know cars. If you're a computer guy then you know computers. If you prefer a Chevy then all power to you, but don't be the Chevy guy who tried to work on a Mitsubishi 3000 GT over 10 years ago and didn't notice the disconnected wires to the coil pack, but blames the Mitsubishi brand for being bad. At the same time don't be the Windows guy who last touched Linux back in 2010 and telling people how Linux is in 2025. Your out of your element and don't know what you're doing. I'll tell you when Linux sucks, just like I'll tell you which car sucks, which is Ford. Talking about their web belts.

I would not sugar coat Linux's short comings because I'm not trying to make excuses for it. Unlike Windows and MacOS where you're more like a cheerleader and the harder you cheer the more you hope these OS's get better. I'm more pragmatic because I can actually go up to open source developers and ask for improvements and they usually do respond. Before Proton was a thing I was suggesting to Valve to make Wine built into Steam so that games would run seamlessly. I'm not saying I gave them the idea, I'm just hoping they listened. If Linux has a problem then I want it fixed. I want my user expensive to be easier and not harder, and you do that by pointing out it's flaws. I'm not going to be a Ford guy and pretend there's no wet belt or head gasket issues. What Windows ads? I've never seen Windows ads. Nobody plays games on MacOS. Just ignore Cyberpunk 2077 being ported to Mac and play Adobe games like Photoshop.

 

[M76]

That depends. If you buy a PC with Linux installed then it'll likely cost the same if not more than a Windows PC. With the ROG Ally SteamOS Edition you actually pay more now compared to the Windows 11 version. You shouldn't but that's how PC manufacturers are doing these days. It's also likely that you can't just flood a SteamOS machine with preinstalled crap like you can with Windows, which maybe discounting the machine.

I had my doubts about this, so I randomly selected a mid range laptop from the local dealership. That comes with windows as well as linux. Exact same HW specs, the linux version is $170 less than the Win11 Pro version. That should be incentive enough to try linux, right?
I suspect that steamOS is price gouged because of the brand, so it is not a good example for this at all.

The decision to install freedos over Linux was probably to avoid confusing in what the laptops could do. Freedos was there because someone was going to torrent a hacked version of Windows and avoid paying more.

As I've said freedos is/was there because it is mandated to have an OS. It was obvious that buyers would install unlicensed windows on it.

Also, Linux 10 years ago was very different compared to today, let alone 15 years ago. If I got a laptop in 2010 with Linux then I'd install Windows as well.

Come on. The boy that cried wolf one too many times. Do you know how long have I've been hearing this? "But linux today is not the same as x years ago" It probably started even before 2010. And it always turned out to be the same: just a fresh coat of paint on it. The only thing where there were indeed significant leaps is how easy it is to install. The rest of the experience is not far from where it was 20 years ago.

Linux has has over 5% in both Europe and USA, and it has strong growth. Your statement doesn't make sense.

Sure if you miss the point.

That depends. I've actually switched machines to Linux without the user knowing. I've put Linux on old Macs and made the UI look like MacOS with the startup sounds and even the animation. Same goes for Windows. It's very easy to get the UI to look and act how you want. This works because all the people did was browse the web and print documents, which you couldn't tell the difference between Linux and MacOS/Windows.

View: https://youtu.be/eTSO5xc-yhs?si=KNFHjvZZsIfAaY4e

So you are proving linux is better by making it look exactly like windows? Of course until someone looks under the hood. Nobody doubts you can browse the internet on linux, I thought that was clear. The point was that people don't want linux even when it comes pre-installed on a new PC.

Think I'm getting a headache from this. Literally pulled the right head off my C5 Corvette after a lifter failed. Thanks COVID for all the bad car parts, because I may need to tear apart the engine for this. Good excuse to put forged parts in it. Gotta look at the glass half full. About to go upstate NY to work on a 92 Mitsubishi 3000 GT that hasn't ran in over 10 years, which does run now. If you're a car guy then you know cars. If you're a computer guy then you know computers. If you prefer a Chevy then all power to you, but don't be the Chevy guy who tried to work on a Mitsubishi 3000 GT over 10 years ago and didn't notice the disconnected wires to the coil pack, but blames the Mitsubishi brand for being bad. At the same time don't be the Windows guy who last touched Linux back in 2010 and telling people how Linux is in 2025. Your out of your element and don't know what you're doing. I'll tell you when Linux sucks, just like I'll tell you which car sucks, which is Ford. Talking about their web belts.

99% of people are not car guys or computer guys, they just want something that works. And I bet you many Ford users are problem free. So when you make a blanket statement that Ford sucks you are pissing them all off. There is no objective better.

I don't see myself as the windows guy, there are certain uses where I'd choose linux without a heartbeat, and others where I tried it and it failed to live up to my expectation.

I would not sugar coat Linux's short comings because I'm not trying to make excuses for it. Unlike Windows and MacOS where you're more like a cheerleader and the harder you cheer the more you hope these OS's get better.

You think I'm cheerleading for windows? Get a grip. Since 7, I've hated every new version, it constantly gets worse user options being taken away, idiotic, nonsensical changes galore. The only thing I'm hoping for is that it doesn't get even worse and that the next update doesn't bring a "feature" I can't live with. But at this moment it is still far easier to live with than linux.

I'm more pragmatic because I can actually go up to open source developers and ask for improvements and they usually do respond. Before Proton was a thing I was suggesting to Valve to make Wine built into Steam so that games would run seamlessly. I'm not saying I gave them the idea, I'm just hoping they listened. If Linux has a problem then I want it fixed. I want my user expensive to be easier and not harder, and you do that by pointing out it's flaws. I'm not going to be a Ford guy and pretend there's no wet belt or head gasket issues. What Windows ads? I've never seen Windows ads. Nobody plays games on MacOS. Just ignore Cyberpunk 2077 being ported to Mac and play Adobe games like Photoshop.

Who wants the user experience to be harder? That's the exact reason I'm on windows is because despite strides in the wrong way my user experience is still better on it than it would be on linux.

You are the Ford guy, you want to convince everyone that linux would be better for them. While I know windows is better for me. The difference between us is I'm not trying to convince anyone to switch to windows from linux, or to concede that it is objectively better. All I'm saying is that it is preferable to me.

 

[Ididar]

False, simple due to the majority of people in the world buy pre-configured systems from OEMs or other sellers and they come with windows, and that is what people know, so they keep going with Windows.

The next reality is, most "every day users" do little more than browse the web, use an email client, maybe (likely use web versions also) and maybe print some things, which linux can 100% do just fine and if you actually gave those people Linux, they prob would not even notice, but they do not know about linux, nor have someone, nor know themselves, how to install a new OS on their system.

Right up until tax season comes around and they try to install that program they've used for the past 10 years and they can't because it doesn't work on Linux. That's my 100% reason for my home office machine not exclusively running Linux. It has it installed but it is dual boot with Win 10.

 

[bigdogchris]

I love how Microsoft just blows them off and says read our website. One of the largest consumer advocacy groups in the country doesn't deserve even a customized response.

I think Windows 10 should get the same treatment XP got - a OS you get every couple of decades that because of it's capabilities and interoperability, sticks around a lot longer than they may want but just the way it is. XP got 13 years of support. Give 10 3 more years without the gimmicks.

 

[MrGuvernment]

Right up until tax season comes around and they try to install that program they've used for the past 10 years and they can't because it doesn't work on Linux. That's my 100% reason for my home office machine not exclusively running Linux. It has it installed but it is dual boot with Win 10.

Certainly there are those cases, but even that is going fully online SaaS now with out even needing an app installed in North America.

You could also just run a Windows VM then to run tax software as it is not demanding and now have no need for a dual boot.

 

[DukenukemX]

I had my doubts about this, so I randomly selected a mid range laptop from the local dealership. That comes with windows as well as linux. Exact same HW specs, the linux version is $170 less than the Win11 Pro version. That should be incentive enough to try linux, right?

What machines are you finding that this is an option? I would absolutely like a $170 discount.

Come on. The boy that cried wolf one too many times. Do you know how long have I've been hearing this? "But linux today is not the same as x years ago" It probably started even before 2010.

Because it's true. Linux is evolving extremely fast, but that's because it was extremely bad. Going back five years ago is a totally different experience. Even three years ago has had a lot of quality of life changes.

And it always turned out to be the same: just a fresh coat of paint on it. The only thing where there were indeed significant leaps is how easy it is to install. The rest of the experience is not far from where it was 20 years ago.

This statement is either ignorance or bait, and I can't tell which it is. If it's bait then I really don't wanna list what's changed in 5 years, let alone 20 years. It's a rather large list.

Sure if you miss the point.

You had a point?

So you are proving linux is better by making it look exactly like windows?

I didn't say that. I'm saying I can make it look and act like Windows without some users ever noticing.

Of course until someone looks under the hood. Nobody doubts you can browse the internet on linux, I thought that was clear. The point was that people don't want linux even when it comes pre-installed on a new PC.

Of course not, because they don't want to leave their conform zone. I for one wouldn't want to push them to since it'll likely come back to bite me in the ass.

99% of people are not car guys or computer guys, they just want something that works.

The 1% still don't know what they're talking about.

And I bet you many Ford users are problem free.

Ford users of older cars maybe.

So when you make a blanket statement that Ford sucks you are pissing them all off. There is no objective better.

Unfortunately for you, I have evidence.

View: https://youtu.be/CEzqz8C4lxw?t=1934

You think I'm cheerleading for windows? Get a grip. Since 7, I've hated every new version, it constantly gets worse user options being taken away, idiotic, nonsensical changes galore. The only thing I'm hoping for is that it doesn't get even worse and that the next update doesn't bring a "feature" I can't live with.

You're not getting what I'm saying. If you don't like ads in Windows and don't want to deal with the requirements with Windows 11, or just want the AI crap gone, then what do you do? You become a cheerleader and say things like, "rah rah no ads in Windows. If anyone can do it, Microsoft can". If Microsoft won't listen to it's customers then you're a cheerleader. If you're hoping that Windows doesn't get worse, then you're praying to a higher god.

But at this moment it is still far easier to live with than linux.

In most cases Windows is easier. I will be installing modded versions of Windows 11 on people's Windows 10 machines for this reason, but the moment Microsoft makes this process more difficult is when they're getting Linux, because at that point it's easier.

Who wants the user experience to be harder? That's the exact reason I'm on windows is because despite strides in the wrong way my user experience is still better on it than it would be on linux.

That really depends on the persons needs, but yes Windows is easier because stuff just works. Assuming Windows 11 also just works.

You are the Ford guy, you want to convince everyone that linux would be better for them. While I know windows is better for me. The difference between us is I'm not trying to convince anyone to switch to windows from linux, or to concede that it is objectively better. All I'm saying is that it is preferable to me.

I'm not any particular guy. I simply see myself as pragmatic and take the path of least resistance with consideration of both short term and long term. I would rather have people install Windows 11 and be done with it. Nobody is going to run to distrowatch and download the top Linux distro, but at the same time nobody is going to run out and buy a new Windows 11 PC or a Mac. If your PC is that old that it can't install Windows 11 then you don't have money to burn. Windows 10 will be the next Windows XP/7 and will create support nightmares for guys like us who don't want to deal with Windows 10 lack of security fixes.

 

[MrGuvernment]

M76 If you actually think Linux is the same today as it was, as noted, even 5 years ago, you clearly have not even bothered to use it recently. I moved to Linux as my main OS at home 3 years ago, I can play most of the games I own on it, it auto picks up my printer, my Yubikeys works, everything else I use works fine, included a Fiio DAC and portable player that just work out of the box...

This is not about convincing people so much as getting them past ancient wrong thinking about Linux and how good it might actually be for someone to use.

We all know people hate change and most people who use Windows don't care that it mines their info and doing everything to get them to sign in with accounts to track them even more...but to try and blame that on Linux alone is silly.