China declares all crypto transactions illegal

harmattan said:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58678907
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Finally some good news.

Now if we could only do the same here in the U.S. and in Europe!

harmattan said:
Brace yourself for 1000s of "lightly used, only ever for gaming" cards hitting the resale market.
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While I wouldn't want to give them the satisfaction of buying their stuff used, people make way too much out of the impacts of mining on GPU's than they really should.

A silicon chip is not like an engine that has moving parts. Unless you are severely over-volting it, a GPU or a CPU can run at 100% load 24/7 and it has next to no impact on its longevity or quality. In fact, it's probably better for the GPU than gaming as frequent hot-cold expansion and ontraction cycles probably do more damage.

And sure, miners often run these things in poorly ventilated systems, but modern CPU's and GPU's have more transistors deicated to thermal protection than the Pentium Pro had in total, and they just throttle themselves.

Other than not wanting to give these twerps any money, there really is no reason not to buy a used mining card.

As far as my trust level for used parts goes, it would be something like this:

Enterprise IT Gear > Mining Gear >>> Consumer/gamer gear.
 
As someone with a degrading (more volts/heat to maintain the same clock frequency) 2700k I can say silicon does degrade........however the time of my chip (10 years, wait, 11?) versus any GPU purchased the past year or two does make a huge, huge difference.

HOWEVER: Cryptos are underground, deregulated currencies. One of the reasons you haven't seen nations adopt them legitimately is because of their anonymity, aka: The significant opportunity to engage in Money Laundering.

China's statement makes using the currency illegal, including transferring it (which would imply converting it to another currency). As long as its tolerated in the rest of the world, you're just going to be a Outlaw in china if you're mining..and subsequently transferring those funds to convert them unless I'm misreading.

All those cards flooding the market will be bought-up my miners in other countries, sadly...
 
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Zarathustra[H] said:
Finally some good news.

Now if we could only do the same here in the U.S. and in Europe!



While I wouldn't want to give them the satisfaction of buying their stuff used, people make way too much out of the impacts of mining on GPU's than they really should.

A silicon chip is not like an engine that has moving parts. Unless you are severely over-volting it, a GPU or a CPU can run at 100% load 24/7 and it has next to no impact on its longevity or quality. In fact, it's probably better for the GPU than gaming as frequent hot-cold expansion and ontraction cycles probably do more damage.

And sure, miners often run these things in poorly ventilated systems, but modern CPU's and GPU's have more transistors deicated to thermal protection than the Pentium Pro had in total, and they just throttle themselves.

Other than not wanting to give these twerps any money, there really is no reason not to buy a used mining card.

As far as my trust level for used parts goes, it would be something like this:

Enterprise IT Gear > Mining Gear >>> Consumer/gamer gear.
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Biggest problem would potentially be having to repaste/repad a card.
 
HeadRusch said:
As someone with a degrading (more volts/heat to maintain the same clock frequency) 2700k I can say silicon does degrade........however the time of my chip (10 years, wait, 11?) versus any GPU purchased the past year or two does make a huge, huge difference.

HOWEVER: Cryptos are underground, deregulated currencies. One of the reasons you haven't seen nations adopt them legitimately is because of their anonymity, aka: The significant opportunity to engage in Money Laundering.

China's statement makes using the currency illegal, including transferring it (which would imply converting it to another currency). As long as its tolerated in the rest of the world, you're just going to be a Outlaw in china if you're mining..and subsequently transferring those funds to convert them unless I'm misreading.

All those cards flooding the market will be bought-up my miners in other countries, sadly...
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Currency most used for money laundering, drug sales, and other nefarious market transactions: USD.
 
HeadRusch said:
As someone with a degrading (more volts/heat to maintain the same clock frequency) 2700k I can say silicon does degrade........however the time of my chip (10 years, wait, 11?) versus any GPU purchased the past year or two does make a huge, huge difference.
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Are you sure it's not the VRM's on your motherboard that are degrading?

Have you overvolted it a lot? Overvolting will have this effect, but at stock settings it is pretty rare for this to happen, and modern GPU's can't be overvolted beyond safe levels without modifying the hardware, which should be pretty apparent.

Only time this ever happened to me was on an old AMD K6-2 way back in college which a friend donated to me for the purposes of running the dorm file server. He had severely overclocked and overvolted for WAY too long, and it got to the point where it had to be run under stock clocks to remain stable, but that was after years of serious abuse, back when components had less protection than they do today.

Even my old core i7-3930k which ran at 4.8Ghz and 1.445v for 8 years before being put on backup duty when I upgraded to the Threadripper is still perfectly fine.
 
pendragon1 said:
i thought they did this a few weeks ago....
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Couple of months I believe. But no, that ban was different.

From what I understand they banned crytpo-miners from entering into sweetheart deals with power generators. You could still mine, but only if you bought power at the same retail prices as everyone else, which made a lot of miners unprofitable.

It was seen as effectively banning mining, without actually banning mining. They also did nothing about the USE of cryptocurrencies.

If this ban is accurate and not misreported, this is completely different in that it bans even the use of any cryptocurrencies.
 
kirbyrj said:
I think they started a few weeks ago with "mining" and now this sounds like any "transacting."

Either way, BTC dipped $2k on the news. Hardly a crash like CNN just posted. The Chinese Evergrande debt problem is a bigger crypto issue right now.
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Zarathustra[H] said:
Couple of months I believe. But no, that ban was different.

From what I understand they banned crytpo-miners from entering into sweetheart deals with power generators. You could still mine, but only if you bought power at the same retail prices as everyone else, which made a lot of miners unprofitable.

It was seen as effectively banning mining, without actually banning mining. They also did nothing about the USE of cryptocurrencies.

If this ban is accurate and not misreported, this is completely different in that it bans even the use of any cryptocurrencies.
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ah right right it was the power thing.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Finally some good news.

Now if we could only do the same here in the U.S. and in Europe!



While I wouldn't want to give them the satisfaction of buying their stuff used, people make way too much out of the impacts of mining on GPU's than they really should.

A silicon chip is not like an engine that has moving parts. Unless you are severely over-volting it, a GPU or a CPU can run at 100% load 24/7 and it has next to no impact on its longevity or quality. In fact, it's probably better for the GPU than gaming as frequent hot-cold expansion and ontraction cycles probably do more damage.

And sure, miners often run these things in poorly ventilated systems, but modern CPU's and GPU's have more transistors deicated to thermal protection than the Pentium Pro had in total, and they just throttle themselves.

Other than not wanting to give these twerps any money, there really is no reason not to buy a used mining card.

As far as my trust level for used parts goes, it would be something like this:

Enterprise IT Gear > Mining Gear >>> Consumer/gamer gear.
Click to expand...

Very much this. I've been running BOINC distrubuted on GPUs since the GTX200 series (so similar stress levels as mining) and bought 2 used 1070s during the last mining crash for compute purposes. 9(?) cards total with 4-6 years of service life each, I had 1 fan failure (old ATI 5850) and one total GPU failure GTX 560. That's it. It's a non-issue just like for CPUs.
 
obs said:
Currency most used for money laundering, drug sales, and other nefarious market transactions: USD.
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Exactly, no one uses the USD for money laundering...

Again, people spew this garbage because they don't understand crypto.
 
techie81 said:
Exactly, no one uses the USD for money laundering...

Again, people spew this garbage because they don't understand crypto.
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As someone who actually makes a living in anti-money laundering, USD is often (but not always) the last stop in a circuitous route that criminal money takes. More and more, one of the stops along the way is crypto. Think of it like a fugitive crossing a river to throw scent dogs off: not infallible, but it can slow down the process. Recent estimates are 60% of organized, and 25% of "mom and pop" orgs use crypto as a laundering tool and growing -- that's an enormous amount.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Are you sure it's not the VRM's on your motherboard that are degrading?
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Honestly, no....but the chip is currently drawing 1.34 volts to maintain a 4.2 overclock......doesn't really matter tho as the last batch of AAA games (and this isn't my PC anymore, it's my sons) peg the CPU at 100% anyhow causing problems, it's time to put it on secondary duty regardless....

Zarathustra[H] said:
Have you overvolted it a lot? Overvolting will have this effect, but at stock settings it is pretty rare for this to happen, and modern GPU's can't be overvolted beyond safe levels without modifying the hardware, which should be pretty apparent.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I mean I never had it at 1.4 or anything but I know automatically it was in the high 3's for like 5+ years while pushing 4.7 to 4.8
 
harmattan said:
Brace yourself for 1000s of "lightly used, only ever for gaming" cards hitting the resale market.
Click to expand...

1632507565904.png
 
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MrSneis said:
For serious? China bans crypto every 6 weeks for the past 3 or so years.
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And each time PROC government insiders increase their stacks.

Anyone in or connected to the government and with advance knowledge of these types of announcements always reap massive rewards. Like betting on a football game you already know what the final score will be because you tilt the field or otherwise manufacture it.

Alas, "banning" crypto is like banning air - good luck unless you also ban the internet. These regular flare-ups about "bans" are a natural part of anything disruptive finding its place- shaking things up, challenging Establishment conventions and norms.. in this case global banking system that's enjoyed total control since the beginning of time.
 
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MrSneis said:
For serious? China bans crypto every 6 weeks for the past 3 or so years.
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The news will end up being true (i.e. all of them before where crackdown, limit-impact with new measure, where turned into China Ban clickbait), but at some point it is getting close to being true now it seem.
 
DPI said:
And each time PROC government insiders increase their stacks.

Anyone in or connected to the government and with advance knowledge of these types of announcements always reap massive rewards. Like betting on a football game you already know what the final score will be because you tilt the field or otherwise manufacture it.

Alas, "banning" crypto is like banning air - good luck unless you also ban the internet. These goofy and frequent flare-ups about "bans" are a natural part of anything disruptive finding its place- shaking things up, challenging Establishment conventions and norms.. in this case an Establishment banking system that's enjoyed total unchallenged control since the beginning of time. But traditional banking's tantrums are also an insight, and an expression of weakness.
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It's easy to ban crypto. Forbid all official transactions and it will die. If the banking industry isn't allowed to deal with it then it's gone.

I expect this to happen eventually in most first world countries as the central banks realize they are losing power. Take it to the bank, no pun intended.
 
DPI said:
And each time PROC government insiders increase their stacks.

Anyone in or connected to the government and with advance knowledge of these types of announcements always reap massive rewards. Like betting on a football game you already know what the final score will be because you tilt the field or otherwise manufacture it.

Alas, "banning" crypto is like banning air - good luck unless you also ban the internet. These goofy and frequent flare-ups about "bans" are a natural part of anything disruptive finding its place- shaking things up, challenging Establishment conventions and norms.. in this case an Establishment banking system that's enjoyed total unchallenged control since the beginning of time. But traditional banking's tantrums are also an insight, and an expression of weakness.
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Which traditional banks are throwing tantrums (Bank of China is not a traditional bank)? Nearly every one has invested heavily either directly or indirectly in crypto at this point, many with structured products already being issued. The revolution will definitely be televised. This "down with the establishment" rhetoric was cute back in 2015, now it's like being angry at your parents for liking your favorite band.
 
DPI said:
Alas, "banning" crypto is like banning air - good luck unless you also ban the internet. These goofy and frequent flare-ups about "bans" are a natural part of anything disruptive finding its place- shaking things up, challenging Establishment conventions and norms.. in this case an Establishment banking system that's enjoyed total unchallenged control since the beginning of time. But traditional banking's tantrums are also an insight, and an expression of weakness.
Click to expand...
That sound a bit a simplification right, I am sure there is thousand of example like that one (a coop movement became by far the most popular banks in Quebec):
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/mouvement-des-caisses-desjardins-history/

Without speaking about China current banking system or Russia revolution nationalization of their banking system
 
harmattan said:
Which traditional banks are throwing tantrums (Bank of China is not a traditional bank)? Nearly every one has invested heavily either directly or indirectly in crypto at this point, many with structured products already being issued. The revolution will definitely be televised. This "down with the establishment" rhetoric was cute back in 2015, now it's like being angry at your parents for liking your favorite band.
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"Down with the establishment" wasn't the point. Status quo. Banking systems and monetary policies as they've existed in various forms before crypto. The point is we're just watching a power struggle continue to play out.

And banks obviously aren't stupid - they understand crypto is future finance. They're merely attempting to bend it to their will by taking positions in it and using their political mouthpieces to attempt to steer it and centralize it so they can gatekeep it too.
 
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zehoo said:
Not much of a crash in price, it’s going to need to go much much lower if you want mining gpus to get dumped in the used market.
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Yeah the problem for the "here comes the flood of cheep GPU's" hopefuls is there are too many other factors now in 2021 that are different from 3-4 years ago. Thank C19, thank component shortages, thank the fact global compute demand (industries that leverage GPU computing power) is higher than ever, and crypto itself has had 3-4 additional years of proliferation and entrenchment. There's too much upward pressure, and things never play out exactly the same anyway.
 
I think I know why China has banned Crypto transactions.

 
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I was under the impression that China was more at the mining side of crypto, meaning that this news could be more likely to increase prices.
 
Told my cryptobros a few years back it just takes one govt to start doing this on this scale (and with this size govt) to cause some massive issues to crypto.

As long as GPUs are cheaper and the kosher banks are worried still I don't mind.
 
Banning mining is China is way better than China nationalizing mining. The CCP would control every blockchain overnight.
 
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idiomatic said:
The CCP would control every blockchain overnight.
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It would take them a decade to put in that infrastructure. Not saying they aren't already working on it, or that they wouldn't do it, but it wouldn't be a turn-key operation. They have serious power problems.
 
Axman said:
It would take them a decade to put in that infrastructure. Not saying they aren't already working on it, or that they wouldn't do it, but it wouldn't be a turn-key operation. They have serious power problems.
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They might also just turn off the power to everyone else and they can be grateful for CCP candles at night. Mandatory rolling blackouts? Literally nothing is off the table with these guys.
 
GamerKitty said:
Lol....they will either move their farms elsewhere or other miners will line up to pay way over market price for them as all the new cards seems to be limited now.
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Most already are moving to the U.S anyways due to previous cracks downs on mining farms in China's months back
 
HeadRusch said:
.......................

HOWEVER: Cryptos are underground, deregulated currencies. One of the reasons you haven't seen nations adopt them legitimately is because of their anonymity, aka: The significant opportunity to engage in Money Laundering.

China's statement makes using the currency illegal, including transferring it (which would imply converting it to another currency). As long as its tolerated in the rest of the world, you're just going to be a Outlaw in china if you're mining..and subsequently transferring those funds to convert them unless I'm misreading.

All those cards flooding the market will be bought-up my miners in other countries, sadly...
Click to expand...

Several counties in the last weeks have legalised Bitcoin and made it an official currency to be used.

PayPal is offering purchases via Crypto, many businesses now, it is already "legit" in so many ways.

Agree, most countries wont adopt them until they can control them. But other countries will use other crypto that offer a level of control, RippleNet / XRP for example or even Solana (not decentralized)
 
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