I got for reason unknown a continuous stream of bubbles going through my Koolance system. It´s air tight but that is perhaps the problem? Anyway can airbubbles kill the pumps? I get streams of bubbles going in and from just about all the times.
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Can air bubbles kill a waterpump.
- Thread starter oqvist
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kleptophobiac
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it can cause the impellor blades to have uneven stress, and ends up tearing up the impellor.
I find it ridiculous to bash a product that is so good that it´s your chips that limits your waterclock even with the fans on the radiator 7-volted.
Koolance don´t suck at all. Just look at the numbers. Of course you can build expensive DIY systems that performs radically better but so is it with everything. There is no real point doing it with todays CPU:s though.
Anyway no I haven´t refilled it so it´s something abnormal. I never used to see waterscum in my reservoir before. And it doesn´t appear to be algae either. Anyway it doesn´t bleed away as "normal waterbubbling after refill" do so to speak.
Koolance don´t suck at all. Just look at the numbers. Of course you can build expensive DIY systems that performs radically better but so is it with everything. There is no real point doing it with todays CPU:s though.
Anyway no I haven´t refilled it so it´s something abnormal. I never used to see waterscum in my reservoir before. And it doesn´t appear to be algae either. Anyway it doesn´t bleed away as "normal waterbubbling after refill" do so to speak.
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Limp Gawd
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How can your cooling ever be so good that the processor limits your overclock?
I have a pretty respectable custom setup, but I know I could be getting another 100 mhz out of my processor with a bleeding edge system.
Cooling always limits your overclock. That's why I don't understand why people spend $220 on Koolance stuff when they could have a much better performing custom system for about the same amount of money.
My understanding is that at a point the processor essentially does limit the OC. I think that this is for two reasons:
1) After a certain point the law of diminishing returns sets in to place. Essentially the gains from extra cooling begin to approach zero after a certain temp is reached.
2) There are other factors to an overclock than cooling. In addition to the obvious ones (how fast your memory is etc.), I believe that there are basic structural limitations in the processor itself.
Anyway, those two reasons explain why when a board is super cooled (say with LN) they can't suddenly go from 3 Ghz to 3 Thz.
How come some cores overclock higher at 53 full load degree Celsius whereas other don´t overclock a darn at 40 degree Celsius full load.
There is a point where adding more cooling get´s redundant really. If you aren´t the one who find 2301 mhz being a lot better than 2300 Mhz.
Of course the cooler the better but at some point it really don´t do any real difference.
But anyway you think I will be fine? I have ordered some new tubing and will do just about every connection and if that doesn´t help it I will get pretty pissed off. Not only because it affects the cooling but that noise gives me the chill every time when those airbubbles goes through the pumps.
I wonder what can cause this?. It´s like I accidently have added some soap to it. It´s not much but my reservoir is so small it goes in and out all the time. It has never acted like this before I used to have zero bubbles.
There is a physical limit to all processors, its just with the current crop we haven't got there yet.
With the old PIIIs thats why no matter how good your cooling was and how much voltage you would put through it, you could never get it better than 1.3GHz give or take.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the current P4 core could go as high 5 - 6 GHz physicaly, but we can't build them to handle that...yet!!!
With the old PIIIs thats why no matter how good your cooling was and how much voltage you would put through it, you could never get it better than 1.3GHz give or take.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the current P4 core could go as high 5 - 6 GHz physicaly, but we can't build them to handle that...yet!!!
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Limp Gawd
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Don't try to muddy the argument. Of course different processors overclock differently. On the same processor, lower temps will allow more speed.
Of course there's a law of diminishing returns. However, a Koolance is not going to allow you to hit that point. Please don't try to tell me that a Koolance will give you the same OC as a high quality phase cooling unit.
I get the impression that most Koolance supporters on these forums already own a koolance system, and are just trying to justify their $220 purchase.
No no... a Koolance probably isn't hitting the point of no-returns. That point is generally somewhere in the super-cooled region. Certainly there is still a return for phase-change cooling.
At the same time, however, better cooling is not necessarily going to increase his OC much because the ratio of extra mhr per degree reduction becomes worse as you approach the point of negligible returns.
For the price, though, of course a custom system would serve him better.
At the same time, however, better cooling is not necessarily going to increase his OC much because the ratio of extra mhr per degree reduction becomes worse as you approach the point of negligible returns.
For the price, though, of course a custom system would serve him better.
zer0signal667
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And what if it doesn't go any faster when you cool it to 38C? What if you have a peltier setup that keeps your CPU running at 2500MHz at 5C, will cooling it to 0C give you a much larger overclock? There's no guarantee to your statement, there is always a point at which the processor will not run any faster no matter how cold you get it.
Koolance has allowed me to reach that point. And there is a reason why Koolance users like Koolance and those who never had one bashes it
Koolance gives a lot of bang for the buck with that 220$ If you aren´t the handyman and can produce your own waterblocks and radiators you will be hard to press to get a significantly better watercooling setup with all the features of the Koolance. And more important a RELIABLE setup that don´t leak or act up. Of course you can save some buck by doing it yourself but let´s face it. BARTONS and P 4 don´t produce as much heat to justify those super 400$ wc setups out there.
And yes a custom setup is my next step. Comes quite naturally now when I got my feet wet. It will have to wait when I ev. need it for the hot running 64-bit CPU:s though. There is just no point going for it right now.
1. I got a crappy CPU that requires a lot of Voltage. Hardly runs stock speed at stock voltage :eek
2. My mainboard is even more crappy. 210 FSB is as high as it can go and that isn´t 100 % stable.
1. I got a crappy CPU that requires a lot of Voltage. Hardly runs stock speed at stock voltage :eek
2. My mainboard is even more crappy. 210 FSB is as high as it can go and that isn´t 100 % stable.
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Limp Gawd
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I didn't make my block or radiator myself, my setup was about $220 at the time (original $100 white water block) and I have never had a leak.
No but when your pump fails do you got another pump as backup? Am not saying that it´s wrong to DIY. Definiatly not. You can get better performance for less or the same money I am just saying it´s silly bashing prebuild setups just because the case of it.
computerpro3
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LOL...If he wanted to, he could have gone with 2x Hydor l20s which will still rock the koolance for practically the same price.
I will bet you my rig that the Koolance has absolutley not allowed you to reach your point of diminishing returns on water...for example, if you put your rig on my wcing system (I already have half, am going to order the other 1/2 wednesdayish) which is comprised of
Cathar Cascade (if he ever responds to my emails or ships out my order which was an ETA of Christmas) or White Water = $110 or $55
Dtek ProCore with 2x 120mm 80CFM 30db fans in push/pull config = $90
Danner mag3 = $40
Danger Den Maze 4 GPU block = $40
Swiftech mcw50p northbridge block with 1/2 adapters = $40
Tygon Tubing = $26
Metal screw tight hose clamps = $4
Dtek Dual BayRes = $35
total = $385 or $330
I am pretty damn sure that you will get a higher overclock, less noise, wwwaaaayyyy more performance, way better looks, and about the same very low chance of leaking. Sure, you spend a bit more, but isn't it worth it? And if you want to stay around $220, then this is the system you should get that would blow away koolance while being very easy to use
Dtek Whitewater = $54
Dtek ProCore Combo with shroud and fan = $66
Danger Den Maze4 GPU Block = $40
Danner Mag 3 = $40
Bay Res = $25
Tubing = can find anywhere for cheap locally, same with hose clamps, I got like 20 at Home Depot for like 4 bucks
total = $225
'Nuff said.
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Limp Gawd
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Most commercial pumps are of higher quality than Koolance pumps. Pump failure is not a problem with Danners and Eheims.
I'd rather trust my computer to a $45 pump than a $5 heatsink fan.
Originally posted by oqvist
Koolance has allowed me to reach that point. And there is a reason why Koolance users like Koolance and those who never had one bashes it
Of course you can save some buck by doing it yourself but let´s face it. BARTONS and P 4 don´t produce as much heat to justify those super 400$ wc setups out there.
HAHAHA. Yeh my 150 system that kicks the shit out of a koolance really does suck. I mean all that ordering of the block online, and hooking up the hoses, its enough to make my little AOL brain spin! Better have someone else do it for me since daddy is sleeping.
Hooking up WC was one of the easiest yet awesome things Ive done. It was all of hooking up hoses...ohhh no, can't handle that, can we?Originally posted by kronchev
HAHAHA. Yeh my 150 system that kicks the shit out of a koolance really does suck. I mean all that ordering of the block online, and hooking up the hoses, its enough to make my little AOL brain spin! Better have someone else do it for me since daddy is sleeping.
Ouch! Seriously though, we shouldn't be too critical of KoolLance. I'd bet that their packaging of water-cooling as being, to use your parlance, AOL-friendly has attracted a lot of commercial attention to watercooling... expanding the market for new watercooling parts.
Bigger market = more fun new stuff for the rest of us to play with.
Originally posted by blip
Ouch! Seriously though, we shouldn't be too critical of KoolLance. I'd bet that their packaging of water-cooling as being, to use your parlance, AOL-friendly has attracted a lot of commercial attention to watercooling... expanding the market for new watercooling parts.
Bigger market = more fun new stuff for the rest of us to play with.
Thats not whats going to happen at all. Its going to be like with modding stuff....I remember ordering my CCFL's from hobbystores and wiring the inverters myself...going to HOME DEPOT for most of my modding stuff...soldering up baybuses...drilling holes in fans for LEDs...and now you can BUY that shit, its ruined. dangerden, dtek dont get any attention from people who would buy koolance (unless theyre here and just are lazy
). their prices go down, their quality improves because of people here and all around the internet who buy the blocks...all commercial attention does is attract the attention of people trying to make a quick buck and who throw out shoddy, premade stuff to try to do so.Giblet Plus!
Limp Gawd
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So true....
mustang_steve
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Originally posted by kronchev
Thats not whats going to happen at all. Its going to be like with modding stuff....I remember ordering my CCFL's from hobbystores and wiring the inverters myself...going to HOME DEPOT for most of my modding stuff...soldering up baybuses...drilling holes in fans for LEDs...and now you can BUY that shit, its ruined. dangerden, dtek dont get any attention from people who would buy koolance (unless theyre here and just are lazy
That is more of a half-truth. Ther are many shoddy modding products out, but there are some really good ones as well.
Same for Watercooling. Yeah Koolance is kinda the Chevrolet of watercooling, but it's also a rather nice kit for someone who dosen't want to fuss with designing a cooling kit.
The entire argument about kits like koolance hurting the industry is little more than pure snobbery. In all truth, Koolances make a great baseline to measure against. That and they have some rather nice accesories....that hard disk block could prove extremely useful for a silent PC design.
Even pre-mod cases have their place...it's all about look...yeah they suck, that is the price for convenience...don't try to tell me a McDonald's hamburger beats out one from the Gordon Biersch...but the McD's one is about $10 cheaper....while the GB one is far superior, in taste and quantity. Think of pre-mods like that....they are cheap and do what they claim, just not as well as they could.
killernoodle
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I had 2 via aqua 1300's die within 5 months before I got a mag 3, that is still running after a year and some change now. I did change the loop before the mag 3, but cavitation due to air bubbles and a restricted inlet took their toll on thos porr vias. Pretty soon after they were installed, they would start to rattle and make bad noises, create lots of bubbles, and soon they died. Kinda pathetic really
Heard of LN? Gee, seeing some LN2 setups get infinite clock speeds is really happening frequently everywhere.
I've been able to get my Barton to it's limits on air. How do I know? Because it's a week 17 CPU and needs VOLTAGE to get anywhere. If I watercooled it, I might get a FEW MHZ out of it, but nothing really spectacular.
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Limp Gawd
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Originally posted by m³ñ
Heard of LN? Gee, seeing some LN2 setups get infinite clock speeds is really happening frequently everywhere.
I've been able to get my Barton to it's limits on air. How do I know? Because it's a week 17 CPU and needs VOLTAGE to get anywhere. If I watercooled it, I might get a FEW MHZ out of it, but nothing really spectacular.
1. Liquid nitrogen doesn't get to absolute zero, does it?
2. Have you tried watercooling your cpu? No? Then you don't know what will happen if you do.
Uh, there would be no electron motion at absolute zero. You wouldn't have a CPU if it was that cold. If you think putting a CPU to absolute zero is going to give you anything better than being -200 celcius, you need to learn a little about absolute zero. When you hit absolute zero, there is no molecular motion in the substance that is said temperature. Trying to get electrons to move around on a metal that is that cold would be impossible. The electrons would be immobile themselves, giving you an infinite resistance. If the electrons did move, then you wouldn't have absolute zero would you?
No, I haven't, but I have seen several results with CPUs of the same stepping and week, and they really aren't any better than what I've got. Maybe I could get to 2.4 ghz on this chip, but I would be at 2.1v.
Wow so the Dangerden pumps and such has external life and never breaks! And DIY always reach 0 Kelvin.
Wow!
No it isn´t hard to DIY but if you have never watercooled before it´s very easy to make stupid misstakes. And for the one who just enjoys a fast running cool computer and don´t get off of tweaking there really isn´t any need for better cooling than the Koolance. Not for me in fact. I mean if people with Koolance systems runs their Bartons at 2,5 gig all the time what is the problem? How do that make Koolance crap? Who cares if the temp measurement reads 30 or 40 degree C?
And with Koolance you know you get a good quality and working setup with parts that is designed to work well with eachother. You get a control board with overheat and overvoltage protection as well as fan controlled fans and such and a setup that is very easy to setup and maintain.
So really why bash it and call it crap when it performs way better than high end air cooling if you don´t go to the extremes.
I will upgrade when I need it but with my current computer that would be my stupidest upgrade ever.
I find it ridiculous some people think they are Hard just because they do it themself. As you self have mentioned it´s not really that difficult and thus not really that hard.
Anyway when you see me having my custom wc rig you won´t hear me saying Koolance is crap since I know it´s really good enough for todays comp systems.
Wow!
No it isn´t hard to DIY but if you have never watercooled before it´s very easy to make stupid misstakes. And for the one who just enjoys a fast running cool computer and don´t get off of tweaking there really isn´t any need for better cooling than the Koolance. Not for me in fact. I mean if people with Koolance systems runs their Bartons at 2,5 gig all the time what is the problem? How do that make Koolance crap? Who cares if the temp measurement reads 30 or 40 degree C?
And with Koolance you know you get a good quality and working setup with parts that is designed to work well with eachother. You get a control board with overheat and overvoltage protection as well as fan controlled fans and such and a setup that is very easy to setup and maintain.
So really why bash it and call it crap when it performs way better than high end air cooling if you don´t go to the extremes.
I will upgrade when I need it but with my current computer that would be my stupidest upgrade ever.
I find it ridiculous some people think they are Hard just because they do it themself. As you self have mentioned it´s not really that difficult and thus not really that hard.
Anyway when you see me having my custom wc rig you won´t hear me saying Koolance is crap since I know it´s really good enough for todays comp systems.
anyone who doesnt want to "fuss" with watercooling really shouldnt be attempting computers until they are ready to put time and effort towards learning how to do it. thats just my opinion but I'd rather see my favorite hobby have less people who know what theyre doing rather than a lot of people who would rather buy a kit and put it in because they dont want to bother to learn how to do it right.
Koolance accessories are NOT nice. I was looking at the chipset block they have (since its more than $10 cheaper than any others) and its 1) terrible, restrictive design 2) uses 1/4 which is NOT WC standard nor practical in any sense of the words and 3) its aluminum which DOESNT fit with any other parts and just causes problems.
As for the hamburger thing, the only reason those are so expensive is because mcdonalds is there. they can have that mentality of "were the best so we can charge more." they may be better but if mcdonalds didnt undercut them with a shoddy product, then more could afford the better product as it would be cheaper, since there was no baseline competition.
PS - I love the chevrolet quote...might make it to my sig
ill answer one part at a time.
dangerden doesnt make pumps. your knowledge of DIY = non existant.
im an idiot. i make stupid mistakes all the time. i rush, i dont take my time, i dont pay attention, and usually my stuff either never gets finished or breaks something else. even I managed to do WC right. if I can do it, ANYONE can.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
you said koolance was designed well!
koolance uses the smallest tube size possible...1/4. If this is just to save space, or for economic reasons, or so their stuff wont work with other makers parts who FOLLOW THE STANDARDS OF 3/8 OR 1/2 INCH, or if its just because theyre idiots, well never know. However, its such small tube size, that there is little to no flow rate. What there IS, is killed by the block design. The blocks are so badly restrictive, they further kill any flow rate you may have. And finally, theyre made of aluminum, the cheapest cooling metal you can use. They tried to save as much as they could, yet, they charge twice the price of any average WC system. And for what? A board that somehow prevents overheating, two pumps that work so badly that your system SLOWLY overheats if one dies (instead of it being a backup pump that can bear the full load), and the satisfaction of buying your whole kit from compusa and doing all the DIY of hooking up the block? FUN!
THATS WHAT WATERCOOLING IS FOR, GOING TO EXTREMES! And from what I've seen, it performs WORSE than a good cooler such as a Zalman 7000 Cu or a SP-97 w/ modded Tornado.
well, one just assumes that people who take the time to do it themselves and right instead of overpaying a crappy company to give them low quality parts which almost do the same thing, are somehow more computer literate and more willing to do things right.
theres a big difference between "good enough" and "worth the expense".
dangerden doesnt make pumps. your knowledge of DIY = non existant.
im an idiot. i make stupid mistakes all the time. i rush, i dont take my time, i dont pay attention, and usually my stuff either never gets finished or breaks something else. even I managed to do WC right. if I can do it, ANYONE can.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
you said koolance was designed well!
koolance uses the smallest tube size possible...1/4. If this is just to save space, or for economic reasons, or so their stuff wont work with other makers parts who FOLLOW THE STANDARDS OF 3/8 OR 1/2 INCH, or if its just because theyre idiots, well never know. However, its such small tube size, that there is little to no flow rate. What there IS, is killed by the block design. The blocks are so badly restrictive, they further kill any flow rate you may have. And finally, theyre made of aluminum, the cheapest cooling metal you can use. They tried to save as much as they could, yet, they charge twice the price of any average WC system. And for what? A board that somehow prevents overheating, two pumps that work so badly that your system SLOWLY overheats if one dies (instead of it being a backup pump that can bear the full load), and the satisfaction of buying your whole kit from compusa and doing all the DIY of hooking up the block? FUN!
THATS WHAT WATERCOOLING IS FOR, GOING TO EXTREMES! And from what I've seen, it performs WORSE than a good cooler such as a Zalman 7000 Cu or a SP-97 w/ modded Tornado.
well, one just assumes that people who take the time to do it themselves and right instead of overpaying a crappy company to give them low quality parts which almost do the same thing, are somehow more computer literate and more willing to do things right.
theres a big difference between "good enough" and "worth the expense".
Originally posted by kronchev
anyone who doesnt want to "fuss" with watercooling really shouldnt be attempting computers until they are ready to put time and effort towards learning how to do it. thats just my opinion but I'd rather see my favorite hobby have less people who know what theyre doing rather than a lot of people who would rather buy a kit and put it in because they dont want to bother to learn how to do it right.
Koolance accessories are NOT nice. I was looking at the chipset block they have (since its more than $10 cheaper than any others) and its 1) terrible, restrictive design 2) uses 1/4 which is NOT WC standard nor practical in any sense of the words and 3) its aluminum which DOESNT fit with any other parts and just causes problems.
As for the hamburger thing, the only reason those are so expensive is because mcdonalds is there. they can have that mentality of "were the best so we can charge more." they may be better but if mcdonalds didnt undercut them with a shoddy product, then more could afford the better product as it would be cheaper, since there was no baseline competition.
PS - I love the chevrolet quote...might make it to my sig
Wow that post makes you lok like an L33T wc snobb. Why don´t you like people to see the benefits of watercooling if they are not handy with a dremel or hacksaw??
about the chipset cooler. It´s designed for Koolance systems thus it´s designed for Koolance tubing. Koolance part is solely designed for Koolance systems and shouldn´t be used in other systems. There is also a lot of different revisions of those. Some better some worse.
So I totally understand that wasn´t what you wanted.
And in what way is it more "right" to build everything from scratch
This snobbery thingie is just ridiculous. You know some of us only wants to actually use our computers and not just mod and tweak them.
Originally posted by oqvist
Wow that post makes you lok like an L33T wc snobb. Why don´t you like people to see the benefits of watercooling if they are not handy with a dremel or hacksaw??
about the chipset cooler. It´s designed for Koolance systems thus it´s designed for Koolance tubing. Koolance part is solely designed for Koolance systems and shouldn´t be used in other systems. There is also a lot of different revisions of those. Some better some worse.
So I totally understand that wasn´t what you wanted.
And in what way is it more "right" to build everything from scratch
This snobbery thingie is just ridiculous. You know some of us only wants to actually use our computers and not just mod and tweak them.
the chipset cooler SHOULD work with other parts. if they wanted to be a respectable company within the modding community, theyd make an effort to be compatiable and upgradable with others parts. instead, they just want to make a quick buck off of people who, again, dont want to take the time to set up a WC system, when you really, REALLY should be taking the time, not only is it fun and a learning experiance, you get a lot of pride and a lot better cooling system for a lot less.
if you only want to use your computer, then dont pretend like youre a modder or an OCer. modding is about altering your computer to what you want, OCing is about pushing it to its limits and then making it go farther. if you just want to use your computer, why are you here, and why dont you have a dell?
No perhaps DangerDen produce pumps it was just an example you can pick any wc company except Koolance that produces pumps not but since I haven´t been on the market for a wc setup since I got my Koolance I couldn´t care less.
Good enough means there is no gain in getting better cooling. Not without having to volt-mod my mainboard or a lot of other crap I don´t enjoy doing.
High quality means high quality. Koolance CPU block is really really good
Watercooling shouldn´t be for the extreme. It should be for the masses. Those uses phase cooling and liquid nitrogen or whatever so just straight watercooling don´t apply.
Koolance kicks but with just about any decently quiet air cooling setup. You have to look at full load figures and not idle temps
Another WC snobb here I presume?
I don´t want to take take the time. I hate modding. I get nervous every time I attempt it. I only do it because I have to to get good performance since I am not filthy rich I can buy the fastest all the time.
Koolance is for the masses that want good performance but don´t want to DIY so I guess you and most other here aren´t what Koolance aims at. And look at other setups like Corsairs and others. They cost the same yet they don´t cool better.
Now I have already told you why I am here. I want 95 % of the performance I get but I don´t mind of I don´t get 100 %. For my sig there is no point getting better more expensive cooling. Since that is what I will need to get a better overclock really. More expensive watercooling.
fair enough, i dont expect you to know if you dont care
then just use a good air cooler and save the hundreds!
NO ITS NOT. talk to ANYONE who does waterblock design and theyll tell you just how crappy it really is!
no it shouldnt. watercooling isnt NEEDED yet. liquid cooling (not necessarily water) WILL be needed one day as procs get hotter and hotter. but modern computers dont NEED it, moderate OCing doesnt NEED it, so why should it be for idiots yet?
Koolance kicks but with just about any decently quiet air cooling setup. You have to look at full load figures and not idle temps
I guarantee a 7000 Cu would equal if not surpass a koolance setup, with less noise.
youre not listening, for the price you paid for that koolance setup you could get TOP OF THE LINE watercooling. thats one of my main points, its OVERPRICED garbage. they go for what, 230? Thats easily a double heatercore, white water block, eheim 1250 or better, 4 panaflo fans, a baybus, tubing, clamps, even a res.
Yeah but all that didn´t exist when I got my Koolance and lets face it though my temps will be lower I won´t get higher clocks that I am quite sure off after all the testing I have done with my rig.
And I used to air cool before and I just couldn´t live with the noise. Had several 68 cfm and 50 cfm fans and like 4-5 case fans based on an Alpha 8045 or similar and yet my case sounded like a DC 9 the cooling wasn´t as good as with my current Koolance. And that is way more quiet.
And if you look at benchies the Koolance CPU isn´t that bad really. Not sure that white water or other blocks would work better in the low flow setup Koolance uses.
And I have also said that my next setup I will DIY but it´s quite pointless saying Koolance is crap when it do cool really good. Better than any air cooling that is suitable if you want to sleep in the same room. For me I include noise factors when judging cooling systems.
And you said it again todays computers don´t need watercooling so why would you need a Whitewater based setup if the only purpose for getting it is that watercooling is your hobby?
For others who just wants the benefits of watercooling Koolance is great and isn´t really that expensively priced. I mean it still let us overclock our chips to it limits so what´s the deal. Plus it presetup it´s widely tested and you get good support plus it´s very easy to maintain. All without having to drill anything in your case and stuff. Just plug and play really. It works and you don´t have to think about it.
So I still don´t see why Koolance should be considered garbage???