Want a cookie?
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
BSN flamebait thread, ATI vs Nvidia (Warning: Fanbios at war)
- Thread starter Valset
- Start date
Want a cookie?
SixtyWattMan
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2008
- Messages
- 4,466
Actually I have first hand knowledge on this. It was a simple bug in the NVIDIA DX10 driver that caused GT200 products to initially be slower than the G80 and it was promptly fixed in the next release. It's not some universal truth.. but nice try.
This.
I find with either brand the major issues that draw headlines usually impact a small but vocal group. My personal issues with both companies have been minor and generally dealt with quickly.
BababooeyHTJ
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Messages
- 6,951
What bugs? I don't see a 28 page thread about Nvidia drivers and/or hardware causing odd crashes unlike the GSOD thread. I am also effected by that "59hz bug" but it hasn't caused me a single problem.
I honestly can't say that Nvidia drivers have been headache free but unlike with my experiences with ATI these Nvidia bugs are rarely game breaking. The only two that I have dealt with in a long while now is not being able to force AA in FO3 due to a stutter and Gothic 1 and 2 not working.
As for FSX around the time that I used that 4870 which was outperformed quite a lot I also tried out a GTX260 and it performed about on par with that 9800 maybe a little worse.
No, I offered you a cookie because you sounded like you were trying to be special or something.
go search for it. I have three threads myself on the subject. then go look in the nvidia forum for some of the others. either you haven't looked or suffering from fanboi vision impairment. I am sorry but as bad as ATI may be Nvidia just doesn't have room to talk. Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt your personal experiences here but if I was going off of just mine I would be praising ATI drivers and condemning Nvidias. clearly as your experiences have gone that probably is not right. There just is no shortages on either side of horror stories. If you put it perspective it becomes hard to take a side on this. Just because I have not personally had an issue with ATI drivers doesn't justify a pro ATI driver stance, so I don't see how you can justify your.
LAiN_OfTheWired
Gawd
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2008
- Messages
- 825
Some questions are really repeats of other questions, or multiple questions at a single take. Furthermore, BSN's replies to some of them are off-base.
Sure quantities were lower than expected on launch for ATI's DX11 parts but they actually had parts to sell. Nvidia still doesn't 6 months later. On top of that, enthusiast demand is always a beast. So how is there any grounds for 'demanding' that ATI 'come clean about launch quantities'?
Also, I found myself downloading an incremental update for my GTX 275 yesterday just to regain OCing functionality. I went from 196.21 to 196.34(?), each of those was 127MB. I actually posted on facebook asking CAN NVIDIA DRIVERS GET ANY FKN BIGGER? I would like to see ATI and Nvidia create a base driver that can stream in incremental updates, you know, sorta like tons of other pieces of software that exist... Still, 100MB vs 127MB. That's an extra couple of minutes.
These questions are also the same ones the enthusiast community (us) has been asking anyway, so I'm not really sure what all the "omg flamebait fanboy war" BS is about... BSN is always pretty lack-luster IMO, too.
Sure quantities were lower than expected on launch for ATI's DX11 parts but they actually had parts to sell. Nvidia still doesn't 6 months later. On top of that, enthusiast demand is always a beast. So how is there any grounds for 'demanding' that ATI 'come clean about launch quantities'?
Also, I found myself downloading an incremental update for my GTX 275 yesterday just to regain OCing functionality. I went from 196.21 to 196.34(?), each of those was 127MB. I actually posted on facebook asking CAN NVIDIA DRIVERS GET ANY FKN BIGGER? I would like to see ATI and Nvidia create a base driver that can stream in incremental updates, you know, sorta like tons of other pieces of software that exist... Still, 100MB vs 127MB. That's an extra couple of minutes.
These questions are also the same ones the enthusiast community (us) has been asking anyway, so I'm not really sure what all the "omg flamebait fanboy war" BS is about... BSN is always pretty lack-luster IMO, too.
Gorankar
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2000
- Messages
- 11,110
It's not the questions themselves, they are actually somewhat reasonable questions, it was how they were worded. They were worded in as adversarial and accusatory tones as possible. They were worded to piss off anyone that is a fan of Nv. In short, the questions were designed to start a flame war.
and how does that explain a 8800GTX doing better then the 4800 in that game then the 4800 series? or did ATI have the same DX10 issue ?
BababooeyHTJ
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Messages
- 6,951
I know which issues Nvidia drivers have had for a while. I could go through them all. The only one that I found to be game breaking were those 195.xx drivers where you couldn't force AA but 191.07 worked fine anyways. The only long time windows 7 issue that I have had is not being able to force AA in FO3 and Gothic 1 and 2 not working at all. Thats it.
I don't use Nvidia betas since normally they are buggy and clearly marked beta.
I take it that you are referring to the 191.07 thread where the only real problem that had was that fan profiles didn't work properly (there have been a couple of ATI drivers that had this issue in the past as well) which didn't effect me since I don't use stock cooling. The other reports are ridiculous and mostly stemmed from that Evga thread where people were claiming that the driver caused hardware issues. When pressed on this all of them admitted to having issues before even installing the driver and a bunch of people hopped on the bandwagon. A vast majority of the people at Guru3d used this driver without issues. It was not an across the board widespread problem like we see in that GSOD thread. Then there are the games that either just don't work well if at all especially with the 5xxx series that isn't exactly new any more.
I see people bashing Nvidia's drivers with no examples, just talking trash with nothing to back it up. Like I said the games that didn't perform well while on an ATI card for me were unplayable. That has very rarely been the case for me with Nvidia other than Gothic since those first couple of months after the GTX2xx launched.
That said I would be willing to try out a 5870 since it's a powerful single gpu that won't suffer from cf issues and when the drivers aren't 100% optimized the raw horsepower should help. I don't have the money for one at this point in time. I was just completely unimpressed with the 4870 and 4870x2 when coming from a GT200.
Last edited:
Gah, I know you've got to be trolling but I can't help myself. Here's a logic analogy:
Say you have two trains, A and B, on a single track heading towards each other on a collision course. You, standing off to the side observe the resulting collision and wreckage. The only information you see is two trains running into each other, causing a wreck.
-Now, if you were to lift up and remove train A from the track, do they still collide? No. Train B passes on just fine
-If you lift up and remove train B from the track, do they still collide? No. Train A would pass through just fine.
Now who is at fault? Based on simply observing the wreck, you can not physically determine which train is at fault. Removing one OR the other from the track will prevent the wreck, but again this does not conclusively prove one way or another which train was ultimately responsible for going the wrong way. You simply don't have enough information.
You could remove train A from the track in identical situations 200 times; it still wouldn't prove it to be train A's fault because likewise, you could remove train B from the track 200 times and prevent the wreck as well. Quantity means nothing.
If you somehow hadn't figured it out, train A and train B are creative/nvidia products. It doesn't even matter which trains you assign them to. Can you tell me, based on this information, which train is at fault? We are of course, for the sake of the argument, ignoring entirely the reports of the nVidia train derailing itself for no reason, as well as the reports that ATI developed a flying train that flies way above the track.
All you've proven is that having both trains together on the same track is a bad idea.
Stop making nVidia users look bad. It hurtses usssss
BababooeyHTJ
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Messages
- 6,951
Now thats just flaming.
Last edited by a moderator:
This post is how I feel about it as well. Well said
Gah, I know you've got to be trolling but I can't help myself. Here's a logic analogy:
Say you have two trains, A and B, on a single track heading towards each other on a collision course. You, standing off to the side observe the resulting collision and wreckage. The only information you see is two trains running into each other, causing a wreck.
-Now, if you were to lift up and remove train A from the track, do they still collide? No. Train B passes on just fine
-If you lift up and remove train B from the track, do they still collide? No. Train A would pass through just fine.
Now who is at fault? Based on simply observing the wreck, you can not physically determine which train is at fault. Removing one OR the other from the track will prevent the wreck, but again this does not conclusively prove one way or another which train was ultimately responsible for going the wrong way. You simply don't have enough information.
You could remove train A from the track in identical situations 200 times; it still wouldn't prove it to be train A's fault because likewise, you could remove train B from the track 200 times and prevent the wreck as well. Quantity means nothing.
If you somehow hadn't figured it out, train A and train B are creative/nvidia products. It doesn't even matter which trains you assign them to. Can you tell me, based on this information, which train is at fault? We are of course, for the sake of the argument, ignoring entirely the reports of the nVidia train derailing itself for no reason, as well as the reports that ATI developed a flying train that flies way above the track.
All you've proven is that having both trains together on the same track is a bad idea.
Stop making nVidia users look bad. It hurtses usssss
You see the glass half full, I see it half empty. Either way, I truely do not believe all 28% of vista BSODs were directly caused by Nvidia drivers but a decent portion, 5-8% were caused in part by CL drivers.
I can't believe CL is getting a pass by so many people here on this. They have sabataged their own drivers to force upgrades to cheaper products. Pulled a major PR snafu by putting the clamps on DanielK and his fix for CL Live, Live 5.1, Audigy and Audigy2 line driver fixes, something CL COULD NEVER SEEM TO FUCKING DO! Hell he even had fixed drivers for the X-Fi and X-Fi2 line of sound cards that CL put a stop to. but yet all Nvidia based BSODs without a doubt or question has to be the result of Nvidia, nothing else could possibly have plyed a role in their drivers creating the BSODs.
Gorankar
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2000
- Messages
- 11,110
You see the glass half full, I see it half empty. Either way, I truely do not believe all 28% of vista BSODs were directly caused by Nvidia drivers but a decent portion, 5-8% were caused in part by CL drivers.
I can't believe CL is getting a pass by so many people here on this. They have sabataged their own drivers to force upgrades to cheaper products. Pulled a major PR snafu by putting the clamps on DanielK and his fix for CL Live, Live 5.1, Audigy and Audigy2 line driver fixes, something CL COULD NEVER SEEM TO FUCKING DO! Hell he even had fixed drivers for the X-Fi and X-Fi2 line of sound cards that CL put a stop to. but yet all Nvidia based BSODs without a doubt or question has to be the result of Nvidia, nothing else could possibly have plyed a role in their drivers creating the BSODs.
While I also think CL's drivers are not so good, you don't seem to have any idea why those features were left out of the Audigy 2 and older cards for Vista. Licensing.
CL, for whatever reason, only licenced all those features that they cut from the Vista drivers, for Win 9x/2K/Xp. They did not have the rights to put them in the Vista driver. That later changed, and the current drivers do have the features back in it. Daniel_K did a great service for the community but, put CL at risk of a lawsuit since he was on their boards giving away hacked drivers that included ip Creative did not have license for in Vista. At the point that Daniel_K asked for "donations", the situation kind of required CL to act as they did.
I do not condone CL's actions totaly in that situation either, charging Audigy2 owners for full featured drivers, not coming clean from the get go on why, not fixing the situation earlier, being a general ass about every thing, etc., but they could not let Daniel_K keep doing what he was doing without risking themselves. CL does not get a pass, but as has been stated a dozen times by a dozen people already, Ati did not have the problem with CL, Nv did. A rational person, even a fanatic, would assume the Nv drivers are to blame, and not CL in that case.
Your only evidence is that you have decided to believe it is CL's fault. Nv has not come out and said that it was CL's fault, and they would have were it true or even plausible.
Oh, and Daniel_K's hacked drivers were just that. Hacked, all he did was unlock/add the features/software CL cut out or did not include for licensing reasons. He did absolutely nothin to improve stability of fix bugs that he did not introduce with his hacking around. with the drivers.
Don't get me wrong; I despise creative drivers even when they are working right. Otherwise, I would have had an x-fi in my machine since forever ago. Not a big fan of the company in general. I also primarily have used nV cards in most of my builds. The only thing I was really criticizing was the platform you were basing your arguments on.
The live series had Dolby Digital support which was dropped and rightfully so because they, CL, stopped paying for the license. But everything else that the Live, Live 5.1, Audigy and Audigy2 cards could do were all CL insidde tech. They licensed nothing from anyone else. What CL did do was to with each new product, they would disable features in updated drivers for older products. Doubt me, Load uo a Live card in xp with the original CD and check every feature you ahev you can do, the uninastall completely, reinstall using nothing but the updated drivers and apps package, roughly half of what was in the original driver/app pckage is removed and the ONLY feature that needed to be dropped and was a DRIVER side thing was Dolby Digital. Other than that, nothing should have changed. CL has been doing this since the Live line to force people to upgrade.
And Daniel K drivers are far more stable than CL own crap.
YeuEmMaiMai
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2004
- Messages
- 34,180
^ lol Daniel K did not write creative drives lol he just mixed and matched them and played around with the ini files to get the features to work on the older cards. His drivers cannot be any more stable....
SixtyWattMan
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2008
- Messages
- 4,466
Shhhh, you're making nvidia look bad.
YeuEmMaiMai
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2004
- Messages
- 34,180
no it's not the point. the point was someone was claiming David K drivers were more stable than Creative's. That's not possible since, David K is not writing any drivers himself, just packaging Creative's stuff differently so that additional hardware features for the cards can be exposed.
Man I wish I could run Creative Labs for 2 years. I would turn them back into the innovator that they were back in the old days with cards like the SB 16, AWE 32, SB Live, etc
YeuEmMaiMai
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2004
- Messages
- 34,180
lol silly nVidia does not need any help from me to make themselves look bad...lol
Haven't they always been the killers of innovation? They ruined Aureal because they had a better product than Creative, and even when Aureal were bankrupted and Creative bought all the IP they still killed the better tech.
YeuEmMaiMai
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2004
- Messages
- 34,180
yeah sorta what nVidia did to 3dfx lol
LAiN_OfTheWired
Gawd
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2008
- Messages
- 825
I need to strike the 'ATI' in this off the record now, since I was apparently seeing the future. I guess ATI now has another question to ask Nvidia. Flame on