Bitcoin Mining GPU Performance Comparison @ [H]

Discussion in 'Mining & Cryptocurrency' started by FrgMstr, Jul 13, 2011.

  1. Samson4EiT

    Samson4EiT [H]ard|Gawd

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    At this point you are likely to pretty much never solve a block by yourself, unless you setup your own farm. Pools are the only way to go.
     
  2. DarkStar02

    DarkStar02 2[H]4U

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    SOMEONE WITH A NICE BITCOIN MINING RIG PLEASE MESSAGE ME!

    I'm looking for someone to crack a couple salted hashes for me. I'll pay $10 per hash cracked, I have 5 or 6 of them. ocl hashcat is very easy to set up.
     
  3. jedimasterben

    jedimasterben 2[H]4U

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    Here is the graph estimating the difficulty: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/

    The last coin should be produced some time in 2100 or something like that, the total hashing power will be negated by the difficulty going up, so that the final coins will be made about the exact time estimated.

    EDIT: Forgot link. :D
     
  4. Jalidi

    Jalidi [H]ard|Gawd

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    At the current pace, around the year 2140 (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ) though I have the feeling it will come much sooner as technology progresses. Another estimate I saw had 1/2 of all coins (10.5 million) by 2013 and 3/4 by 2017 with the last coin coming sometime in the early 2020's.
     
  5. piscian18

    piscian18 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Sorry sounds like another scam to me. Even it is legit its still just another way to try to make a buck without putting any work into it and that just goes against my beliefs and is exactly whats fucked everything up. People not wanting to put in the effort to earn a dollar. Interesting article kyle sorry to crap on the parade.
     
  6. Yakk

    Yakk [H]ardness Supreme

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    Hmm, that is what investors do.

    Investors put money into something they believe will be profitable and either loose their money, or get a reward. Their work is identifying opportunities, NOTHING else. A small startup looking for funding (IE: Google), the whole stock market, forex market, ALL the markets are built that way.

    Not sure what you are trying to get at.

    In this case, a bitcoin miner's work is getting setup efficiently and having their systems work profitably.

    The least effort *I* can put into making a dollar means *I* can make more of them. Simple is as simple does.
     
  7. RooK

    RooK [H]ard|Gawd

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    I can't help myself and have to agree.

    However, I do enjoy that "older" cards like the GTX 480 were thrown into the ring. Its nice to see how they stack up against the newer ones - even if the benchmark is questionable.
     
  8. Lorien

    Lorien [H]ardness Supreme

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    I challenge you to show us how this is a scam. I was on your side when I first heard about it 4 months ago and dismissed it as well. Then I kept hearing about it and after 2 months decided to take a closer look and read about it. Then I started asking questions and read then read and read some more until I had a good enough understanding of it to decide if it was a scam or not.
    So you are judging something before examining it thoroughly all based on your uneducated opinion. Sorry but I'm going to require more than that to take you seriously.
    There is work put into it, a lot of it actually. The calculations made by the hardware are done to verify and secure every transaction (exchange of bitcoins between people in the network) that came before it. This makes the system more secure the longer it runs. And last I checked the electricity to run that hardware is not free.

    Here's a simple yet crude analogy (I'm sure it could be refined but I just came up with of the top of my head):
    Imagine a bank ledger that contains every transaction the bank ever processed since it opened. Now make a million copies of it and give one copy to a million accountants each. Before anyone can add a new transaction to the main original ledger all of the accountants have to verify their ledger copies starting from the beginning (doing the math for every transaction), once they are all verified all of the transactions that happened during the time it took for those accountants to verifying their copies of the ledger get added to the original ledger and the process starts all over again.
    This is obviously a lot of work so the system offers a reward as incentive for the accountants to do their job. If there was no reward everyone would simply not do anything since that's the path of least resistance. Now, to get this reward, all that's required is that you show proof of the work you've been doing verifying the ledger. That means everyone that is working on verifying the ledger has an equal chance to receive that reward. The faster you are at verifying transactions and showing proof that you've verified them the more chances you have at getting that reward but since it is completely random everyone has more or less an equal chance.
    Sorry, but beliefs are irrelevant in this matter. Beliefs require you to accept them and prevent you from examining things, essentially blinding you to the realities of the world. What's worse it puts you in path to be easily manipulated. I simply refuse to live like that. But this ain't a philosophical debate so I'll stop there.
    As I've just explained there is a lot of work put into it. You started off with the right set of mind being skeptical, which is always the right thing to do when confronted with something you know nothing about. But then you outright dismissed it and closed your mind to it based on an uneducated assumption. I say uneducated not as an insult, but in the literal sense of the word (not having a thorough knowledge of the subject).
    Of course you could assume that everything I've said is a bullshit lie, so encourage anyone that feels that way to learn about it and prove how it is a scam.

    Sorry for the tl;dr.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  9. SulSeeker

    SulSeeker Gawd

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    Hey, if 1000 Mhash a month can pay off my new 5830CFX, Nice!
    If 3700 Mhash a month can pay for all my expenses (rent, power, garbage, etc), Wonderful
    If I work my ass off to get 37 GHash a month, I deserve the $10k I'm getting to keep it running. And, yes sir, there will be a ton of work involved to keep it cool, powered, and hashing.
     
  10. jedimasterben

    jedimasterben 2[H]4U

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    Best analogy/summary of Bitcoin ever. You win the internet.
     
  11. Silent Knight

    Silent Knight [H]ard|Gawd

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    Well sir,last time i checked,hardware and electricity costs are not free.
     
  12. ryko

    ryko Limp Gawd

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    what i don't understand is why is every transaction is verified over and over again? if a transaction was verified as being legit, why waste time and power to re-verify everything over and over again every single time? if a transaction was legit how is re-verifying it actually doing anything?

    is it possible to manipulate past transactions? and if so, then why keep re-verifying them with every new transaction? wouldn't not verifying them not allow people to manipulate them because there would be no record to look at? i would think once a transaction has been verified, then there is no need to keep looking at that over and over again. it would be like my bank calculating my entire history of transactions since i started with them over 10 years ago in order to get $20 out of the atm today---makes no sense at all! all of my past transactions were considered legit at the time of each transaction or they wouldn't have happened, so what do i gain from verifying everything again and again?

    just seems to me that any past verified bitcoin transaction could be tossed out. i just don't get what verifying a transaction from 2 months or years ago gets for you today. it's not like anytime you use cash you have to remember all of the other millions of times you used cash before and figure out if you have enough money. you just look at your current balance for today's date....same goes for checking, credit, whatever. couldn't bitcoin just do the same thing and base it around dates like everything else?
     
  13. sunama

    sunama [H]Lite

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    This is what I would like to know.

    Could it be that if only a single transaction was verified (and not the previous million), then the verification process would become too quick a "mining" the bitcoins would become to easy. By having this extra processing, mining bitcoins becomes more difficult and effectively keeps the bitcoin economy alive.

    I hope I am wrong, but if I am right, this is a massive waste of time/resources and there may be better ways to spend one's time/money.
     
  14. meme

    meme Limp Gawd

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    At some point in the next year, bitcoin's price will collapse and the miners will give up and pull out. Of course, it would only take a couple people to keep the blockchain going, so the last bitcoin will be generated when the final person gives up and shuts down the software.
     
  15. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy 2[H]4U

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    Project Denver.

    If AMD has a problem with Sysmark ignoring GPGPU, nVidia sure as hell will too once they enter the CPU market. Via probably quit to save the few dollars they spend supporting their membership, nothing like abandoning ship all at once.
     
  16. master noran

    master noran 2[H]4U

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    EL OH EL.

    Typical blue collar mentality.
     
  17. DarkStryke

    DarkStryke [H]ard|Gawd

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    I'm still confused as to how this 'currency' has any value, then again you could ask that of any of our 'real world' fiat currencies.
     
  18. sunama

    sunama [H]Lite

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    Well, it has value because some places accept this as legal tender. As long as shops/traders accept this currency in exchange for goods/services, it will have value.
     
  19. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Like any currency, it all has to do with a lot of people willing to trade it for goods and services and one attractive thing about Bitcoins is that they are hard to trace and that's a very desirable attribute.
     
  20. Yakk

    Yakk [H]ardness Supreme

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    From what I understand, it is a massive waste of resources, but a waste which creates profit, and is legal. The system is based on the "waste" of constantly re-verifying, and therein lies the difference.

    The project is open source, you can go read the code for yourself.
     
  21. TheToE!

    TheToE! [H] Brewmaster

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    So hows it working out for you?
     
  22. Macross

    Macross [H]Lite

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    Oh how the mighty have fallen
     
  23. Rudster816

    Rudster816 n00b

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    Excellent chart, the one on the bitcoin wiki has tons of entries for the various cards, which can make it a little difficult to get a good idea of cost\performance.
     
  24. sunama

    sunama [H]Lite

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    From what I can see, nobody has fallen.

    Who/what are you referring to?
     
  25. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy 2[H]4U

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    The problem I see with bitcoins is that they're backed by absolutely nothing. At least other currencies are backed by elected governments who are accountable to their people. Bitcoin miners and exchange operators are accountable to absolutely nobody. Not a wise place to store your wealth.

    At best bitcoins are just a very public method of money laundering. Wake me up when people start accepting salaries in bitcoins and holding them in their checking account.
     
  26. jebo_4jc

    jebo_4jc [H]ard|DCer of the Month - April 2011

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    Yeah, bitcoin is probably huge in the money laundering crowd
     
  27. Zedux

    Zedux n00b

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  28. aggies11

    aggies11 [H]Lite

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    Super Interesting, both in terms of GPGPU application, and also with regards to the specifics of bit-coin.

    I haven't studied it extensively, but have read a lot, and it seems that the benenfit of Bit coin is that it's Peer 2 Peer, ie. no central authority. It gives it all the benefits of P2P (stability, resiliance, free from a single point of failure/influence etc Anonymity). Of course the one downside is trust. In P2P there is no central "authority" that we can all trust. If we "trust" everyone, then it is possible for "bad" users to some how gain/corrupt the system. In order to prevent this, all the important info is kept in the public "trust", a giant database/list(s) of transaction histories. In order to do anything/make changes, you must include this ever-growing list. Since the list is proposed by these "untrusted" P2P sources, literally anyone, they have to be verified to not be fake.

    If you wanted to do anything bad/fake, you'd need to generate your own list/database, and due to the nature of the crypto, this would be very hard (require the entire total sum of all the generation that has come before it).

    I'm not 100% on the specifics, but I believe the general idea is correct. To suggest another analogy, imagine that for those accountants that work on the ledger, in order to add a new entry to the ledger, you had to add an official stamp, this stamp being the Next Largest Prime Number in the series (real Mathmatical items/concept) . This stamp is kinda unique in the sense that it is very hard to generate (find the next largest unknown prime) but very easy to verify. So it's hard, and takes a lot of work to add a new item, but easy and fast to verify that an item is legit (has a correct stamp). In order to make a fake list you'd have to generate all those stamps/numbers yourself, up until the current point, which would take a prohibitive amount of work/time.

    That is what they are going for, it's certainly not "busy work", the work done mining is actual used and needed, it's the way to guarantee/verify trust. The above analogy isn't 100% accurate of course, as there is only one list of Prime Numbers, ie, only one independent series of stamps to validate all possible ledgers. In the Bit-coin world the "correct" series of stamps is dependent on the content of the ledgers. So the "work" to generate/find them must always be done. You can't use any of the work done on a previous ledger, to help you with a new "fake" one.

    This work needs to be done for the system to continue, and so the "workers" are "paid" for their time by the introduction of new bit-coins. Which also provides a flow of new currency, which probably has some economic benefits(?).

    Interesting, but as many have pointed out, any currency, especially an un-backed one, is only as useful as the confidence of it's users. Bit coins value is in it's relative anonymity, and that other people are willing to accept it in trade. The first will always be there, the 2nd is no guarantee especially in terms of stability. From a technical standpoint though, it is super cool that something like this can happen. From virtual economies in online games, right into grass-roots currencies in the real world. It's a fascinating time to be around.
     
  29. Spare-Flair

    Spare-Flair [H]ardness Supreme

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    The weak point is that this will always be a virtual currency and for it to have any value for the real world, people are going to have to convert bitcoins into hard currency sometime down the line unless it's all only used for exchange of goods.

    The weakest link in the whole system is that it is dependent on private bitcoin exchanges which can manipulate the market at whim just as if the stock exchange just decided to change stock prices arbitrarily to influence the economy. When the biggest exchange, MtGox was hacked, the value of bitcoins plummeted and were only worth cents and some people bought up a ton at that price. If the hackers themselves did it, it was a windfall because they simultaneously stole a fortune in bitcoins but also bought much more at an artificially deflated "bubble bursted" price which has since recovered to around $14 USD / BTC.
     
  30. TheMouse

    TheMouse n00b

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    The 1-cent purchases were reversed.... just like the trigger happy stock market crash purchases were reversed.
     
  31. sunama

    sunama [H]Lite

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    I know that there are a lot of people buying hardware to earn themselves some bitcoins, but surely it would be much more worthwhile in investing in creating a bitcoin exchange. That's where the real money is.

    Mining bitcoins is small fry.
     
  32. mas

    mas [H]ard|Gawd

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    it's already allegedly happened with people losing huge sums of money to hacks. and all they could say was "sorry bro, we have no idea where your $500k went." there are exploits and trojans out in the wild designed specifically to target bitcoin wallet files by now, obviously with success. the guy felt like killing himself after the coin just dissapeared, I probably would too if I built up such a return on that kind of investment and ended up losing it all.

    ha, tell it to this guy. what the dev claims is that transactions are actually irreversible, didn't they deal with that exploit by just shutting the site down until they fixed the breach? username "allinvain", maybe there really is such a thing as too much irony. sounds way too perfect but I still wouldn't doubt it.

    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...ncy-500000-bitcoin-heist-raises-questions.ars
     
  33. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy 2[H]4U

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    Yep, if somebody robs my FDIC insured bank it's their loss not mine. They still owe me my cash. If somebody hacks my computer and steals my bitcoin wallet I'm SOL. Easy choice.
     
  34. TheMouse

    TheMouse n00b

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    That was a different exploit. He had his wallet compromised. Which is entirely different than the exchange hack.
     
  35. TheMouse

    TheMouse n00b

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    Yea... I don't do bitcoin (at this time).... but if I did, I'd truecrypt my wallet with an insanely long password and back it up in multiple places. That way if someone breaks into my house and steals my computer, I'm still okay.
     
  36. sunama

    sunama [H]Lite

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    That's what I am thinking.

    Surely, this example is the equivalent of somebody hacking someone's computer, finding their bank account details (login, password, etc), then using those details to gain access and transfer the money in to another bank account. Right?
     
  37. TheMouse

    TheMouse n00b

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    The best scenario that I can relate it to is if you left your wallet full of cash on your night stand and someone broke in, stole the cash, and left. You would not be able to reverse that theft without finding who stole the cash.

    Bank transactions on the other hand, can typically be reversed unless they include a withdrawal (which has security measures that would prevent the theft of 6 figure amounts).
     
  38. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy 2[H]4U

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    Are people even making money on mining right now? Payouts per individual miner seem to be miniscule and will only get lower. This whole scheme was only lucrative for early adopters, anybody getting in now isn't going to make any money. The only way this is going to remain popular is if competition heats up between mining pools like it is for the Folding@Home folks.

    I just checked it out and I'm getting 100Mh/s on my 580 using the OpenCL backend. I joined the deepbit pool they estimate my reward at 0.6 BTC per day, which is like 78 cents at the current exchange rate....lol.
     
  39. x3sphere

    x3sphere 2[H]4U

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    You mean 0.06?

    I do around 720 Mh/s on my 6970 + 5830, which gives me around 0.5 a day. So around $13 every two days. I started back in May, made like $400 so far after power expenses. It's still profitable for me though nearly not as much. If the Bitcoin drops below $10 I might stop. Anyways, I'm happy... basically covered the expense of buying my next GPU.