BioShock Infinite

[JoeUser]

I seem to have forgotten. What games have you worked on again? I need a reminder.

This is irrelevant. One does not have to be part of whatever industry to judge whatever product. If you say that some food you ate sucked can I say you're dumb and wrong because you aren't a chef or farmer? If you say this car is junk can I call you a troll because you aren't an automotive engineer? Of course I can't.

That would be stupid.

Just because YOU don't agree with him doesn't make him WRONG. Why? Because, technically, he isn't. Just because you felt emotions towards Elizabeth doesn't make her come to life like Pinocchio and suddenly have real intelligence. Everything she said and did was nothing but a trigger. Again, you can disagree, but technically you would be wrong.

 

[MavericK]

I'm going to wait until the first patch is released before replaying Infinite...I didn't have any crashes or bugs but I still want to wait for it...I hear they plan on fixing the FOV slider with the new patch

Yeah, I probably will as well. The game crashed on me like 3 or 4 times.

 

[polonyc2]

Unless you felt emotions towards Elizabeth doesn't make her come to life like Pinocchio and suddenly have real intelligence. Everything she said and did was nothing but a trigger. Again, you can disagree, but technically you would be wrong.

it's a game!...everything will be based on triggers in any game...this is not a real AI robot standing next to you...things have to be scripted...it's all about creating an illusion of believable actions...Elizabeth was the most 'real' sidekick in any game mainly based on her actions but also on the voice acting done by Courtnee Draper

 

[MavericK]

it's a game!...everything will be based on triggers in any game...this is not a real AI robot standing next to you...things have to be scripted...it's all about creating an illusion of believable actions...Elizabeth was the most 'real' sidekick in any game mainly based on her actions but also on the voice acting done by Courtnee Draper

Yeah, I honestly can't think of any other NPCs that really come close. Not to say Elizabeth's actions were perfect by any means, but it's about the best we've seen so far.

 

[JoeUser]

it's a game!...everything will be based on triggers in any game...this is not a real AI robot standing next to you...things have to be scripted...it's all about creating an illusion of believable actions...Elizabeth was the most 'real' sidekick in any game mainly based on her actions but also on the voice acting done by Courtnee Draper

Right and I understand that...it's just that MANY here would seem to disagree with you based on what I've seen others say. All those people saying that this or that couldn't be possible in the game due to here incredible A.I. eating up so many resources, etc.

I didn't say she was a horrible NPC or anything, just that over all it wasn't anything SPECIAL as if no other developer could do it and that Irrational had some special engine to handle her or something.

 

[polonyc2]

Right and I understand that...it's just that MANY here would seem to disagree with you based on what I've seen others say. All those people saying that this or that couldn't be possible in the game due to here incredible A.I. eating up so many resources, etc.

I didn't say she was a horrible NPC or anything, just that over all it wasn't anything SPECIAL as if no other developer could do it and that Irrational had some special engine to handle her or something.

it is pretty special otherwise why aren't there more sidekicks like her in a game?...the next closest comparision is from a game that came out 10 years ago- Half Life 2...I think it's a combination of many factors that contributed to her success but mainly the mind of Ken Levine who created her...she could have been an annoying tag-along all game but I never once felt she got in the way...she knew her role in the game and played it to perfection

I didn't like her constant help (throwing $$, salts, health kits) but overall she was fun to have around (I mostly hate it when paired with another NPC or player so that's pretty high praise coming from me)

 

[mas]

I seem to have forgotten. What games have you worked on again? I need a reminder.

and what if I told you I've never written a single line of code in my life, would you still question my credibility? or just accept the fact that you're trying to argue things you know nothing about.

it is pretty special otherwise why aren't there more sidekicks like her in a game?...the next closest comparision is from a game that came out 10 years ago- Half Life 2...I think it's a combination of many factors that contributed to her success but mainly the mind of Ken Levine who created her...she could have been an annoying tag-along all game but I never once felt she got in the way...she knew her role in the game and played it to perfection

I didn't like her constant help (throwing $$, salts, health kits) but overall she was fun to have around (I mostly hate it when paired with another NPC or player so that's pretty high praise coming from me)

not sure why this sounds like such a relevant point, maybe because devs would rather spend their time on co-op companions than npc ones. every autonomous npc in any game is built on the exact same methods, friend or foe. so we could say that all games with actors/characters other than yourself are included. they just seem special because they're following you around, that's all.

 

[.winchester]

It's great! I love games with this kind of climate.

 

[piscian18]

Speaking of irritating AI. So I tried to play through the opening area of shantytown without picking anything up or attacking anyone and they still ended up attacking me. Is that supposed to happen?

 

[eloj]

Speaking of irritating AI. So I tried to play through the opening area of shantytown without picking anything up or attacking anyone and they still ended up attacking me. Is that supposed to happen?

I'm not sure. I had the same problem. I think there's basically areas that are considered 'private', and if you move into (or are seen in) them everyone becomes aggressive.

Hard to know without having replayed the section to know what the thinking was there. My first impression was "okay, they're really forcing this" because there was no real warning, I had no chance to back away.

 

[MavericK]

I'm not sure. I had the same problem. I think there's basically areas that are considered 'private', and if you move into (or are seen in) them everyone becomes aggressive.

Hard to know without having replayed the section to know what the thinking was there. My first impression was "okay, they're really forcing this" because there was no real warning, I had no chance to back away.

Yeah, I ended up restarting that area a couple times because I didn't understand why I was being attacked.

 

[CrimsonKnight13]

You'll only get attacked in Shantytown if you pick up any items that are in the area. There are a bunch of hobos that see that as stealing & wind up wanting to kill you.

 

[Dallows]

This is irrelevant. One does not have to be part of whatever industry to judge whatever product. If you say that some food you ate sucked can I say you're dumb and wrong because you aren't a chef or farmer? If you say this car is junk can I call you a troll because you aren't an automotive engineer? Of course I can't.

That would be stupid.

You don't have to be part of the industry but you do have to have some knowledge and understanding of what it takes to do certain things. Especially in the creation sense.

You can't use things like taste as an example, it's subjective.

If he came forward and said like "I've worked on 20 games, Portal 2, Call of Duty, Enslaved, World of Warcraft, etc, etc" (with some sort of proof by the way), he is then in a position to judge the complexity of what we're discussing. If you've never even tried to code something before you have no frame of reference. How could you possibly know how difficult something is if you've never done it yourself, or anything close to it?

If someone on this forum actually had experiencing coding an AI NPC like Elizabeth for a game then we could get some insight. But just because you read some stuff on the internet doesn't make you an expert.

Just because YOU don't agree with him doesn't make him WRONG. Why? Because, technically, he isn't. Just because you felt emotions towards Elizabeth doesn't make her come to life like Pinocchio and suddenly have real intelligence. Everything she said and did was nothing but a trigger. Again, you can disagree, but technically you would be wrong.

See this is the problem. Either I'm not explaining my position well enough or you're just missing the point entirely. Of course I realize she's just a trigger based AI. The only thing I've ever discussed was the difficulty in making Elizabeth work properly and be as realistic as possible. All you naysayers have done is try to refute that.

Right and I understand that...it's just that MANY here would seem to disagree with you based on what I've seen others say. All those people saying that this or that couldn't be possible in the game due to here incredible A.I. eating up so many resources, etc.

I didn't say she was a horrible NPC or anything, just that over all it wasn't anything SPECIAL as if no other developer could do it and that Irrational had some special engine to handle her or something.

I disagree. It is special because no one has really done it before. You want to say Alyx did it, fine, great, but that was almost 10 years ago. Name another NPC. I'd say Trip from Enslaved is the next best, but her AI would be far less than Elizabeth's I imagine. I'm not saying no other developer could manage an NPC like Elizabeth, but you don't know the complexity and difficulty they went through to make it work.

I'd rather take Levine's word for it over yours as well when it comes to how difficult game making is.

and what if I told you I've never written a single line of code in my life, would you still question my credibility? or just accept the fact that you're trying to argue things you know nothing about.

If you've never done any coding then your opinion is rather useless. Because you don't know what's involved in that process. And you certainly don't know what's involved in programming a game.


But whatever. I'm done arguing.

 

[dremic]

stop feeding the joetroll

 

[piscian18]

You'll only get attacked in Shantytown if you pick up any items that are in the area. There are a bunch of hobos that see that as stealing & wind up wanting to kill you.

Naw I walked through the whole place without picking up anything or going in any place private. I was literally just walking down the street when they flipped out and started attacking me. There's actually a red color on anything you will get aggro for picking up.

 

[KENNYB]

Speaking of irritating AI. So I tried to play through the opening area of shantytown without picking anything up or attacking anyone and they still ended up attacking me. Is that supposed to happen?

Hahaha... In 1999 mode I had to steal anything that wasn't bolted down.

 

[CrimsonKnight13]

Naw I walked through the whole place without picking up anything or going in any place private. I was literally just walking down the street when they flipped out and started attacking me. There's actually a red color on anything you will get aggro for picking up.

I guess I might have picked up some red items. I didn't find out if there was random aggro though.

 

[MavericK]

I actually think Angry Joe's review of the game was spot-on, including the minor criticisms.

If you haven't seen it (someone posted it earlier I think): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g15hfTHNdTg (Minor spoilers, maybe)

Also, I didn't open it really until I finished the game (in case there were spoilers), but the Limited Edition game guide for this game is awesome. It has all of the voxophone recording texts if you don't feel like going back through the game for them all, and it has some great full-color artwork in there. Definitely recommend getting it if you like the game, it was worthwhile IMO. Also, it doesn't spoil the ending which is cool.

 

[eloj]

Got a patch on Steam, don't see a changelog in the news though.

Hey Steam, new rule: You don't get to patch if you don't supply a changelog.

 

[MavericK]

I hate that shit, when they patch with no changelog.

 

[Dallows]

I actually think Angry Joe's review of the game was spot-on, including the minor criticisms.

If you haven't seen it (someone posted it earlier I think): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g15hfTHNdTg (Minor spoilers, maybe)

Also, I didn't open it really until I finished the game (in case there were spoilers), but the Limited Edition game guide for this game is awesome. It has all of the voxophone recording texts if you don't feel like going back through the game for them all, and it has some great full-color artwork in there. Definitely recommend getting it if you like the game, it was worthwhile IMO. Also, it doesn't spoil the ending which is cool.

Didn't he even give it a 9/10 (and the bad-ass seal of approval or whatever) even with the minor criticisms?

 

[MavericK]

Didn't he even give it a 9/10 (and the bad-ass seal of approval or whatever) even with the minor criticisms?

Yeah...and I agree with his conclusion for the most part. The criticisms don't significantly detract from what was an amazing gaming experience and a satisfying conclusion, unlike far too many games these days.

 

[Q-BZ]

Yeah...and I agree with his conclusion for the most part. The criticisms don't significantly detract from what was an amazing gaming experience and a satisfying conclusion, unlike far too many games these days.

Exactly.



10.4MB patch. Not too big. I wonder what it is?...

 

[chockomonkey]

Got a patch on Steam, don't see a changelog in the news though.

Hey Steam, new rule: You don't get to patch if you don't supply a changelog.

After how many years of patching things, you'd think it would just be second nature.

Make patch, write down wtf you're fixing.

 

[CrimsonKnight13]

What's the new version number for the main game executable? I'll do some digging for the changelog... if one is available.

After how many years of patching things, you'd think it would just be second nature.

Make patch, write down wtf you're fixing.

I like when devs (any type) have huge changelogs for me to read, since I'd like to know what has changed, been added/removed, & what to expect.

 

[JoeUser]

I have a question for those that may be in the "know" and just something in general that has been on my mind.

This is NOT meant as some troll post or some other shit I'm sure I'll be accused of...so if that's all you'll have to say on the subject please keep it to yourself.

OK so Infinite has a 12-20 hour campaign ONLY if you really scavenge every single square inch of every level.

There are plenty of people who ran through the game (all while not being able to skip the story parts) in like 6-8 hours. Sure they skipped over "exploring" but the fact is that the core of the game, the main story line, is like 6 hours minimum.

My question is that Levine said Infinite was in the works since the first Bioshock...considering the game was RELEASED in 2007 its possible Infinite was already known BEFORE BS1's release (which it would have to be considering Infinites story if they didn't just make it up so it would fit with BS1)...SO we're looking at 6 years minimum to 8 years max (the 8 years being the plus ~2 years BS1 was in development [could be longer, could be shorter]). So even if we guesstimate that ACTUAL development was ~4 years (which it most likely was considering they had game play trailers in 2010) then the game we got makes no sense considering the, at the very least, 4 years in development. 4 years for what is basically at it's core a 6 hour campaign? It took them a whole year for 1.5 hours of game? Not to be rude or act like I know everything there is to know but I'm sure there are mod teams out there with MUCH less people, less experience, and very little to no money that could effectively make a game like Infinite in 4 years all things considered. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The only way that makes sense is if they had SO MUCH MORE they were working on but had to scrap it. I could see the time they said Infinite was being worked on if we got anything close to what the game trailers showed but we didn't. There was a lot going on in those trailers vs. what we got. Yes I know that we basically got some of what was there, but I'm talking about the attention to level detail (the part where they're in the shop in the early game play video has a ton more detail and props than any level in what we got), etc.

4 years development, tons of people, millions upon millions of dollars for what is basically a 6-8 hour game. I mean, CoD has a new game every year with a campaign that has more detailed maps, voice acting, game play stuff, etc...only takes them ~1-2 years. Now I am NOT comparing Infinite to a CoD game, I'm just talking purely technical stuff.

If someone could maybe shed some light on this I'd appreciate it, thanks!

 

[dremic]

I have a question for those that may be in the "know" and just something in general that has been on my mind.

This NOT meant as some troll post or some other shit I'm sure I'll be accused of...so if that's all you'll have to say on the subject please keep it to yourself.

OK so Infinite has a 12-20 hour campaign ONLY if you really scavenge every single square inch of every level.

There are plenty of people who ran through the game (all while not being able to skip the story parts) in like 6-8 hours. Sure they skipped over "exploring" but the fact is that the core of the game, the main story line, is like 6 hours minimum.

My question is that Levine said Infinite was in the works since the first Bioshock...considering the game was RELEASED in 2007 its possible Infinite was already known BEFORE BS1's release (which it would have to be considering Infinites story if they didn't just make it up so it would fit with BS1)...SO we're looking at 6 years minimum to 8 years max (the 8 years being the plus ~2 years BS1 was in development [could be longer, could be shorter]). So even if we guesstimate that ACTUAL development was ~4 years (which it most likely was considering they had game play trailers in 2010) then the game we got makes no sense considering the, at the very least, 4 years in development. 4 years for what is basically at it's core a 6 hour campaign? It took them a whole year for 1.5 hours of game? Not to be rude or act like I know everything there is to know but I'm sure there are mod teams out there with MUCH less people, less experience, and very little to no money that could effectively make a game like Infinite in 4 years all things considered. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The only way that makes sense is if they had SO MUCH MORE they were working on but had to scrap it. I could see the time they said Infinite was being worked on if we got anything close to what the game trailers showed but we didn't. There was a lot going on in those trailers vs. what we got. Yes I know that we basically got some of what was there, but I'm talking about the attention to level detail (the part where they're in the shop in the early game play video has a ton more detail and props than any level in what we got), etc.

4 years development, tons of people, millions upon millions of dollars for what is basically a 6-8 hour game. I mean, CoD has a new game every year with a campaign that has more detailed maps, voice acting, game play stuff, etc...only takes them ~1-2 years. Now I am NOT comparing Infinite to a CoD game, I'm just talking purely technical stuff.

If someone could maybe shed some light on this I'd appreciate it, thanks!

i noticed you took the troll disclaimer out of your sig; unfortunately i saw it before you took it off and cant take anything you say seriously

 

[KENNYB]

4 years development, tons of people, millions upon millions of dollars for what is basically a 6-8 hour game. I mean, CoD has a new game every year with a campaign that has more detailed maps, voice acting, game play stuff, etc...only takes them ~1-2 years. Now I am NOT comparing Infinite to a CoD game, I'm just talking purely technical stuff.

If someone could maybe shed some light on this I'd appreciate it, thanks!

You really think it's easy to get the look (I can't think of a better way to put it) of Bioshock? Newsflash: art is still difficult.

 

[Deleted member 232162]

Let's assume for a minute that the only game that was worked on was Infinite. That could easily be churned out (Q/A rounds weekly, excellent budget for art, voices, music,etc.) in about 2 years, or roughly complete one year after announcement. One also has to account for the fact that not every company WANTS to churn out the game so quick. regardless of how much ACTUAL content there is, strictly speaking "hours" wise. It's really the same with Valve. Could they have done Half Life 3 two-three years after half life 2 came out? Sure. Easily. No problem at all. Do they need to, or have to rush? Not really. Let's also not forget about the actual time it takes to approve ALL the sound and art. It takes months, and months. Questions arise then...why does some art look like poo? Well, not everything has to make sense.

Realization is that gamers want to play games, only logical. Not everything is about "time it takes", but more about "tweak a lot of shit, then tweak it again" then "Oh, random thing came up, push this and this back, etc." It's an ongoing process for a lot of companies, and that's why it takes so long to make CERTAIN titles. It also accounts for the fact that some games get pushed out the door annually, due to dumb as all fuck publishers who are greedier than hell.

If you want to know more, PM me, can go into detail with you (more so on a programming scale).

Also, please put that troll disclaimer back into your sig., who are you kidding.

 

[Dallows]

I have a question for those that may be in the "know" and just something in general that has been on my mind.

This NOT meant as some troll post or some other shit I'm sure I'll be accused of...so if that's all you'll have to say on the subject please keep it to yourself.

OK so Infinite has a 12-20 hour campaign ONLY if you really scavenge every single square inch of every level.

There are plenty of people who ran through the game (all while not being able to skip the story parts) in like 6-8 hours. Sure they skipped over "exploring" but the fact is that the core of the game, the main story line, is like 6 hours minimum.

My question is that Levine said Infinite was in the works since the first Bioshock...considering the game was RELEASED in 2007 its possible Infinite was already known BEFORE BS1's release (which it would have to be considering Infinites story if they didn't just make it up so it would fit with BS1)...SO we're looking at 6 years minimum to 8 years max (the 8 years being the plus ~2 years BS1 was in development [could be longer, could be shorter]). So even if we guesstimate that ACTUAL development was ~4 years (which it most likely was considering they had game play trailers in 2010) then the game we got makes no sense considering the, at the very least, 4 years in development. 4 years for what is basically at it's core a 6 hour campaign? It took them a whole year for 1.5 hours of game? Not to be rude or act like I know everything there is to know but I'm sure there are mod teams out there with MUCH less people, less experience, and very little to no money that could effectively make a game like Infinite in 4 years all things considered. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The only way that makes sense is if they had SO MUCH MORE they were working on but had to scrap it. I could see the time they said Infinite was being worked on if we got anything close to what the game trailers showed but we didn't. There was a lot going on in those trailers vs. what we got. Yes I know that we basically got some of what was there, but I'm talking about the attention to level detail (the part where they're in the shop in the early game play video has a ton more detail and props than any level in what we got), etc.

4 years development, tons of people, millions upon millions of dollars for what is basically a 6-8 hour game. I mean, CoD has a new game every year with a campaign that has more detailed maps, voice acting, game play stuff, etc...only takes them ~1-2 years. Now I am NOT comparing Infinite to a CoD game, I'm just talking purely technical stuff.

If someone could maybe shed some light on this I'd appreciate it, thanks!

I know you won't like my response but I'll make it quick.

I'm sure the game went through a lot of changes, just like Bioshock 1 (which had a zoo concept in the early stages). So what probably happened is their initial ideas didn't work out they way they wanted, or they discovered it would be better to go with the Elizabeth angle and scraped a lot of what they had and basically started over story wise.

Infinite was in development for 4-5 years from what I've heard Levine say in interviews.

(I also only skimmed your post. I'm a busy guy, ya know)

 

[polonyc2]

I have a question for those that may be in the "know" and just something in general that has been on my mind...

we get it...you don't like the game...why the constant postings bashing every aspect of it?...who cares how long it took in development?...the game turned out to be worth the wait (for most people)...

 

[Deleted member 232162]

I know you won't like my response but I'll make it quick.

I'm sure the game went through a lot of changes, just like Bioshock 1 (which had a zoo concept in the early stages). So what probably happened is their initial ideas didn't work out they way they wanted, or they discovered it would be better to go with the Elizabeth angle and scraped a lot of what they had and basically started over story wise.

Infinite was in development for 4-5 years from what I've heard Levine say in interviews.

(I also only skimmed your post. I'm a busy guy, ya know)

Spot on, see my last comment. Long time in development != long hours in the campaign.

It's not as black and white as that.

 

[piscian18]

While I think its quite flawed and I don't really have any interest in playing through again it's just not hate worthly. It is a good game. It's thoughful, pretty too look at and fun to play. I really appreciate that element. Bioshock is an adventure game at heart which is really my territory. The problem is Adventure games are slow and mostly uneventful. So the combat is just kind of a nice break up from this interactive movie that I felt was very good especially at the end. If this was a movie on Imdb it would be a solid 7-8.

 

[JoeUser]

Spot on, see my last comment. Long time in development != long hours in the campaign.

It's not as black and white as that.

See I would agree with this but what's with the lack of detail and shit? You have NPC models (the civilians) that are all basically the same (what, like 2-3 females, same for males), you have maps that besides crates, desks, and trashcans are pretty barren all things considered (not to compare but BS1 had much more detail environments and stuff and, again, look at the shop in the game play video...ridiculous detail)...I get things change and all that, I understand that, it's just in my eyes that still doesn't make up for the over bland feel of the world and the NPC's. Then you have guns that don't show modifications like they did in BS1...not a big deal, but why don't they? They obviously did it before and people loved it and this time around they definitely had the time and resources so why skip out?

I don't know...despite the time they spent on the game it still just has that rushed feeling to me. Something about it makes me feel like they didn't really put THAT much time into it, ya know?

 

[eloj]

Please stop quoting the troll, it punches through my ignore list (I know, stupid, but there's nothing I can do about that). Thanks guys.

PS. It's on your user page, under "User CP"->"Edit Ignore List". HTH.

 

[Bigbacon]

Finished it today. I quite liked the ending. sort of confusing yet not.

Like some of you i really didn't use the vigors all that much. I used bronco and the wave one pretty much the whole time after I got them. Carbine + sniper was used throughout until the ending part.

wonder how well done the DLC will be.

 

[jiminator]

4 years for what is basically at it's core a 6 hour campaign? It took them a whole year for 1.5 hours of game? Not to be rude or act like I know everything there is to know but I'm sure there are mod teams out there with MUCH less people, less experience, and very little to no money that could effectively make a game like Infinite in 4 years all things considered.

mod teams do not make games. they make levels and add assets to existing games and perhaps change behaviors. This game could be shortened to one hour and you would still have much of the same development work required. Most of the development goes into the 3d engine, the game world, the physics, the rail system, the animations, the weapons, effects, etc. The levels are a small part of the game. So perhaps you can go and modify a few lua scripts and change the game in dramatic ways, but the main coding did not go into the scripts, it went into the functions that the scripts use and the way they interact with the rest of the game world.

 

[MavericK]

Finished it today. I quite liked the ending. sort of confusing yet not.

The ending itself only like half blew my mind. When you either go back through the game and note all the connections, or just read an analysis of it, that's when the real mind-blowing occurred (for me, anyway).

 

[polonyc2]

I think the Lutece connection throughout the game is what really impressed me...I think they were probably the most important characters throughout

 

[KENNYB]

Finished it today. I quite liked the ending. sort of confusing yet not.

Like some of you i really didn't use the vigors all that much. I used bronco and the wave one pretty much the whole time after I got them. Carbine + sniper was used throughout until the ending part.

wonder how well done the DLC will be.

Did you finish in 1999 mode? I recall someone began in 1999 mode first.