Big Navi is coming

sabrewolf732

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https://wccftech.com/amd-ceo-7nm-navi-high-end-graphics-cards-and-4th-gen-ryzen-cpus/

What are you guys' thoughts on big navi?

According to TPU navi 10 is 35-50% slower than the 2080ti.

Navi would have to scale almost perfectly with CUs to hit 2080ti performance going from 40cu to 64cu.

I'm guessing a 384bit bus as it currently seems that Navi is bound by bandwidth (10-15% core overclocks yield single digit % performance gains)

I'm guessing it will beat 2080 super but 2080ti will still wear the crown.

Commence shit posting.
 

SeymourGore

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I think Navi is going to scale very well and be competitive from low to high end. I think Nvidia will still ultimately hold the 'speed crown', but it won't be so clear cut as it has been during the Vega era.

I'm looking forward to see where Intel comes in at, hopefully there competitive too and the GPU market will get more exciting.
 

dvsman

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I don't think AMD feels that the sales volume for ultra high end justifies their R&D and production costs. They can make more money on mid to high end at lower unit prices but higher unit sales volumes (lower price but sell a lot more) than higher unit prices at much lower unit sales volumes (sell a few but much pricier per sold). Keep in mind, people that are truly [H] and spend $1k+ on a graphics card are a minority and while great for the "halo" effect are not really great for the bottom line.

Nvidia has the bucks to spend on Titan and Ti cards that crush the benchmarks but most people / "normies" are not going to be buying either card.
 

Stoly

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AMD needs a flagship card, that's why they tried tu push Vega VII.

I don't think they can release a card that could go head to head with the RTX2080Ti, but even if they do, nvidia will shortly strike back with Ampere.
But in the end they don't really need to take back the crown (which they haven't taken for a long time) but to be price/performance competitive at the high end like they do now with Navi 10.
So a 5900XT thats close to a RTX2080Ti for under $800 wouldn't be bad IMO
 

Rvenger

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It will likely be 10% slower, around the same power draw and hopefully will not have a shitty blower cooler.
 
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Brackle

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It will likely be 10% slower, around the same power draw and hopefully will not have a shitty blower cooler.

As much as I would hope you are right regarding the cooler. I think AMD is going to stick the shitty blower. No idea why they love those type of coolers laugh
 

ManofGod

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As much as I would hope you are right regarding the cooler. I think AMD is going to stick the shitty blower. No idea why they love those type of coolers laugh
AMD's lowest common denominator customer is even lower than Nvidia's?

;)

There is nothing wrong with the blower cooler and also, I am not a lowest common denominator customer, I just do not believe everything everyone claims on the internet for a product. (I own a Vega 56 Reference and a RX 5700, you?)
 

Brian_B

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Can I shitpost that the only source linked is WCCFTech?

My thought -

AMD isn't going to chase the 2080Ti. They will pursue higher performance, but they aren't after chasing the performance crown. I think we will see something that gets closer to 2080 by the end of the year, but I think the Ti will remain unchallenged in Navi generation. AMDs focus is on "good enough" right now for graphics: good enough performance, good enough power envelope, rock bottom cost to implement (total R&D/manufacturering) -- that allows them to be profitable in the custom SOC market (consoles) where the sales are very low margin / high volume... and then carry that same design over to desktop discrete and APUs. They just aren't chasing the high power/high performance niche market... they are taking their existing R&D from consoles and just cranking it up as fast as it will allow for the discrete market.

I think once nVidia drops to 7nm, we will see probably see a big performance jump from nVidia again - much larger than Pascal -> Turing, on par with Maxwell->Pascall or Keplar->Maxwell. I wouldn't be surprised if that cycle we see nVidia hold back the x80Ti/Titan reveal until several months after the generation introduction, and lead out with the x60/x70/x80 cards like we've seen in the past.

AMD won't catch them with Navi, and once nVidia goes out to Ampere it will be another leap ahead by nVidia in the Discrete market. AMD will remain competitive price/performance wise in the middle ground - the <$300 mid-range market is where they have excelled with Polaris and I believe will continue to do so with Navi. The sub-$200 market is going to dry up though... the sub$100 market is already gone, the sub $150 is on the way out rapidly, and with the recent price inflation on GPU tiers, I think the $200 market is next to go.

And once we hit that point in time, we should see about what Intel brings to the table with Xe.
 
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IdiotInCharge

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that allows them to be profitable in the custom SOC market (consoles)

These are only tangentially related- the desktop parts need to hold their own in terms of profitability.

<$300 mid-range market is where they have excelled with Polaris and I believe will continue to do so with Navi. The sub-$200 market is going to dry up though... the sub$100 market is already gone, the sub $150 is on the way out rapidly, and with the recent price inflation on GPU tiers, I think the $200 market is next to go.

I see AMD as pretty much owning the... let's call it the sub-GTXnn60 market. At that point the only reason to buy an Nvidia GPU is for specific features largely unrelated to gaming, or if gaming, for specific games that just run worse on AMD due to developer negligence (usually).

And I think, for the most part, Nvidia is happy to let them exist there.

I'm also starting to think that AMD is avoiding the high-end because Nvidia is likely to sacrifice margins to knock them back down if they do- and AMD can't afford to both produce a high-end part and have Nvidia simultaneously getting aggressive.
 

Factum

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I don't think AMD feels that the sales volume for ultra high end justifies their R&D and production costs. They can make more money on mid to high end at lower unit prices but higher unit sales volumes (lower price but sell a lot more) than higher unit prices at much lower unit sales volumes (sell a few but much pricier per sold). Keep in mind, people that are truly [H] and spend $1k+ on a graphics card are a minority and while great for the "halo" effect are not really great for the bottom line.

Nvidia has the bucks to spend on Titan and Ti cards that crush the benchmarks but most people / "normies" are not going to be buying either card.

It is the same CUDA cores there are in a RTX 2080 Ti as there are in a GTX 1660...
 

Brackle

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There is nothing wrong with the blower cooler and also, I am not a lowest common denominator customer, I just do not believe everything everyone claims on the internet for a product. (I own a Vega 56 Reference and a RX 5700, you?)

IMO blower style coolers from AMD and in some ways Nvidia aren't able to keep up. 1080 GTX reference, 5870 reference, 290x reference, 5970 reference.

I have quite a bit of experience of blower coolers. And I just do not find the AMD one's all that good. Even the Nvidia ones on the 1k series I wasn't a fan of.
 

Factum

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Launch day reviews eh? Yeah, that's why. It appears they fixed the fan curve on the most recent drivers. Still runs hot but its quieter now.

You are saying that launch day reviews now don’t matter?
They are the most crucial reviews for a new product...but sure...now they don’t matter...
 

travm

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You are saying that launch day reviews now don’t matter?
They are the most crucial reviews for a new product...but sure...now they don’t matter...
That is not what he's saying. The performance metric bring evaluated in those reviews is now obsolete due to software updates. At no point did he say launch day reviews didn't matter. Launch day was quite a while ago
 

IdiotInCharge

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That is not what he's saying. The performance metric bring evaluated in those reviews is now obsolete due to software updates. At no point did he say launch day reviews didn't matter. Launch day was quite a while ago

Well, he's saying it, but he's not substantiating it.

And the reason I've waited to respond is that, logically, something has to give. Navi was already running at full-tilt under that crappy blower, and the claim is that turning the blower down made it more livable, but there's no evidence to support the reduction in performance or stability potential that comes with lowering the cooling capacity.
 

Jandor

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It seems Navi 12 with 64CU will be a little bit slower than 2080Ti but will have 16GB of GDDR6 and so AMD will sell it for 1000$. Will be 350W TDP and use some very close cooling to Radeon VII.
 

Ready4Dis

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You are saying that launch day reviews now don’t matter?
They are the most crucial reviews for a new product...but sure...now they don’t matter...
That's a leap, he didn't say they don't matter, he said that the acoustics where fixed with an updated fan profile which leads to slightly higher temperatures but a very nice reduction in noise. Of course, you are able to adjust to suite your environment.

Well, he's saying it, but he's not substantiating it.

And the reason I've waited to respond is that, logically, something has to give. Navi was already running at full-tilt under that crappy blower, and the claim is that turning the blower down made it more livable, but there's no evidence to support the reduction in performance or stability potential that comes with lowering the cooling capacity.
Well, they reduced the fan profile which increased temperatures (I'm sure it will still bring the fan up faster if the temperature rises to much), so why would that have any affect on performance unless they are causing the card to hit to high of temperatures without ever ramping up the fan and throttling. I haven't seen enough benchmarks vs throttling vs temperature to really get a great idea one way or the other honestly. The cooling capacity is not lowered (ok, overall capacity, capacity at specific points is lowered), the fan *could* still ramp up to 100%, it just stays lower at specific temperature points so it will come up and run at elevated temperatures compared to previous.
 

IdiotInCharge

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Well, they reduced the fan profile which increased temperatures (I'm sure it will still bring the fan up faster if the temperature rises to much), so why would that have any affect on performance unless they are causing the card to hit to high of temperatures without ever ramping up the fan and throttling. I haven't seen enough benchmarks vs throttling vs temperature to really get a great idea one way or the other honestly. The cooling capacity is not lowered (ok, overall capacity, capacity at specific points is lowered), the fan *could* still ramp up to 100%, it just stays lower at specific temperature points so it will come up and run at elevated temperatures compared to previous.

What it means is that they're letting the card get hotter.

Increased heat means more stress on components and higher power draw, at a minimum- it really needs to be benchmarked.
 

KATEKATEKATE

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I keep hearing "Navi/RDNA can/will scale above the 4096SP limit of GCN", anything to that I wonder?

64CU Big Navi, or 80CU Collossal Navi?

tbh I just want ~48CUs that will OC to 2.1Ghz with some sort of hardware DXR acceleration for a price that I don't have to ruin my life to afford lol.
 

Rvenger

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You are saying that launch day reviews now don’t matter?
They are the most crucial reviews for a new product...but sure...now they don’t matter...


OK man. Drivers were borked for the first 2 releases. I could only imagine the press driver. If you read the reviews they had all sorts of problems. So yes, launch day reviews are not 100% indication of the actual product. It doesn't matter what the damn product is. Nvidia, AMD, Intel... they all get bug fixes as time goes on.

But yeah AMD sucks and Navi is going to fail like Vega. There you happy with that comment? Is that what you want to hear?
 

ManofGod

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Well, he's saying it, but he's not substantiating it.

And the reason I've waited to respond is that, logically, something has to give. Navi was already running at full-tilt under that crappy blower, and the claim is that turning the blower down made it more livable, but there's no evidence to support the reduction in performance or stability potential that comes with lowering the cooling capacity.

No, he's neither saying nor substantiating it. In fact, the 19.7.3 drivers increased idle fan speeds, although it is inaudible. Not sure what folks are crying about, considering I have a RX 5700 and it is not noisy, at all, even if I manually overclock or use the auto overclock function in Wattman. In fact, the only issue I have had is the Wattman settings are not maintained between reboots but, that is a minor thing, all things considered.

Who am I going to trust more, my own direct experience or some random dude on the internet who does not even own the card?
 

ManofGod

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I keep hearing "Navi/RDNA can/will scale above the 4096SP limit of GCN", anything to that I wonder?

64CU Big Navi, or 80CU Collossal Navi?

tbh I just want ~48CUs that will OC to 2.1Ghz with some sort of hardware DXR acceleration for a price that I don't have to ruin my life to afford lol.

It will be interesting to see where NAVI goes, especially considering it is not set in stone what it is even today. This is Lisa Su's AMD, not the AMD of that dude that got fired and ran off to Intel, defeated because he could not take RTG with him, in my opinion.
 

Rvenger

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Well, he's saying it, but he's not substantiating it.

And the reason I've waited to respond is that, logically, something has to give. Navi was already running at full-tilt under that crappy blower, and the claim is that turning the blower down made it more livable, but there's no evidence to support the reduction in performance or stability potential that comes with lowering the cooling capacity.


There are all kinds of tricks they can do within the driver to reduce temps that do not involve ramping the fan. Voltage changes, memory timing changes, memory voltage changes, add more vdroop, change the power play tables, adjust the fan curve to hit at a lower temperature so the card doesn't smack at 90c and then ramp the fan up.


Holy crap some of you guys do not think before you post. I used to come here for actual good content. I guess I need to find a new forum.
 
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travm

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It will be interesting to see where NAVI goes, especially considering it is not set in stone what it is even today. This is Lisa Su's AMD, not the AMD of that dude that got fired and ran off to Intel, defeated because he could not take RTG with him, in my opinion.
I want to see Intel fail miserably, not because I dislike Intel, just because I want to watch this turd fizzle. Blame other people when he fails...
 

IdiotInCharge

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Not sure what folks are crying about, considering I have a RX 5700 and it is not noisy, at all, even if I manually overclock or use the auto overclock function in Wattman.

Well, you don't have your 'Faithful' poof yet, but your bias is excruciatingly clear- so please understand that we don't mean disrespect to you when we do not take your word over established reviewers when it comes to AMD products.

There are all kinds of tricks they can do within the driver to reduce temps that do not involve ramping the fan. Voltage changes, memory timing changes, memory voltage changes, add more vdroop, change the power play tables, adjust the fan curve to hit at a lower temperature so the card doesn't smack at 90c and then ramp the fan up.

Sure. But everything comes with a cost. What's the cost?
 

Brian_B

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I want to see Intel fail miserably, not because I dislike Intel, just because I want to watch this turd fizzle. Blame other people when he fails...

I actually don't disagree with this statement entirely. I was going to state that Raja leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but that's a really poor metaphor to use on these forums.
 

Rvenger

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Well, you don't have your 'Faithful' poof yet, but your bias is excruciatingly clear- so please understand that we don't mean disrespect to you when we do not take your word over established reviewers when it comes to AMD products.



Sure. But everything comes with a cost. What's the cost?


Ever heard of driver optimization?

I have the card, the temps are the same and the noise has been reduced. The games I probably play have better written drivers that make use of the architecture instead of brute forcing it.

So my RTX 2070 used to get extremely hot on the backplate at idle. 4 months later Nvidia releases a driver and the backplate is substantially cooler. BUT it must come at a cost! So maybe all that heat moved somewhere else. When I pull it out of my ass, I'll let you know.
 

Brian_B

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There are all kinds of tricks they can do within the driver to reduce temps that do not involve ramping the fan. Voltage changes, memory timing changes, memory voltage changes, add more vdroop, change the power play tables, adjust the fan curve to hit at a lower temperature so the card doesn't smack at 90c and then ramp the fan up.

Then why didn't they?
 

Rvenger

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Because they rushed the product and didn't bother to put the drivers through enough Q/A. They probably copy pasted the current driver, added some features,tested it and called it a day.

They basically let the reviewers and community beta test it. Its frustrating. We get incomplete reviews because of it. I waited 4 months for them to fix the monitor flicker on the Radeon VII. You know what I did? I sold it.
 

ManofGod

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Well, you don't have your 'Faithful' poof yet, but your bias is excruciatingly clear- so please understand that we don't mean disrespect to you when we do not take your word over established reviewers when it comes to AMD products.



Sure. But everything comes with a cost. What's the cost?

Bias? I suppose bias is actually using the product and owning it in the physical computer I am typing this on right now, as opposed to the person I am responding too, who consistent displays preferential treatment for Nvidia products and does not own or use an RX 5700. That is cool though, you do not not have to agree or believe me, I will continue enjoying what I purchased, whether you want to or not. :)

The cost? $284 plus tax open box with a 5% discount using the Microcenter Credit Card. :)
 

ManofGod

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Oh, and I have been meaning to say this: I seriously wonder if Navi is what Polaris was expected to be.
 
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5150Joker

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https://wccftech.com/amd-ceo-7nm-navi-high-end-graphics-cards-and-4th-gen-ryzen-cpus/

What are you guys' thoughts on big navi?

According to TPU navi 10 is 35-50% slower than the 2080ti.

Navi would have to scale almost perfectly with CUs to hit 2080ti performance going from 40cu to 64cu.

I'm guessing a 384bit bus as it currently seems that Navi is bound by bandwidth (10-15% core overclocks yield single digit % performance gains)

I'm guessing it will beat 2080 super but 2080ti will still wear the crown.

Commence shit posting.

I don't see it coming until q2 2020 unfortunately. If it was coming in the next few months with 2080 Ti or faster performance at $700 it would be an instant purchase for me.
 

IdiotInCharge

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Ever heard of driver optimization?

Sure. And if a driver optimization can make that much of a difference, well, then pour yourself a glass of Fine Wine. Now for coolers!

I have the card, the temps are the same and the noise has been reduced.

And I've asked for performance numbers versus release. Still waiting.

The games I probably play have better written drivers that make use of the architecture instead of brute forcing it.

The games you probably play don't have drivers.

So my RTX 2070 used to get extremely hot on the backplate at idle. 4 months later Nvidia releases a driver and the backplate is substantially cooler. BUT it must come at a cost! So maybe all that heat moved somewhere else. When I pull it out of my ass, I'll let you know.

Dodge! Deflect! Look over there!

When I pull it out of my ass, I'll let you know.

Take a selfie!


Yes, bias.

as opposed to the person I am responding too, who consistent displays preferential treatment for Nvidia products

I consistently display a preferential treatment toward using the better tool for the job. If I'm not recommending AMD enough for you, well, perhaps you should buy more stock so they have more R&D cash so they can make more products that are actually competitive for me to recommend.

and does not own or use an RX 5700

I have your opinion versus every review- that means that you're claiming that the reviewers are all wrong. Bias, meet mirror.

Oh, and I have been meaning to say this: I seriously wonder if Navi is what Polaris was expected to be.

They were both expected to be better, and they both fell short. Ah AMD, never change.
 

Brian_B

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They were both expected to be better, and they both fell short. Ah AMD, never change.

In AMD's defense - both Polaris and Navi were supposed to be mid-lower range cards. And they were perfectly adequate and performed that function well.

I think a lot of people on the internet just got their expectations up.

Fury, Vega to a lesser extent, and Piledriver on the CPU side - now those were AMD letdowns.
 

seanreisk

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There's only one figure that matters.

We know it won't be quite as fast as NVidia, there will be no surprise there. We know that AMD is going to push the limits of the chip to get competitive benchmarks, whether its GPU speed, memory speed, or core counts. We know this is a matter of pride for AMD, since AMD already has perfectly good mid-range offerings, and mid-to-low range offerings are where you make bank.

The only thing we don't know, and the only dimension that matters, is price.

I predict that it won't be as good of a bargain as AMD's other offerings, but I can't be sure. NVidia's ridiculous pricing gives them a comfortable margin, but I think (opinion only) AMD is going to be on the edge when pricing this card, and I think if they price it too low then NVidia will cut prices on the 2070 / 2080 / 2080ti and Supers, leaving AMD with little room to move.

But that's just my opinion.


P.S. I'm not buying one anyway. :unsure: Might buy a 5700 for my second computer.
 
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cybereality

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The new drivers did help or fix the heat / fan issue.

When I first tested the card, I got to 90C very quickly, within 1 or 2 minutes on a game.

Now, with latest drivers and default fan profile, I've tested several minutes of Heaven maxed 1080p and Superposition 4K and it's barely into the lower 80C range.

I don't really hear the fan either, so I would consider this problem solved. Of course, you can up the fan profile if doing overclocking, but the default settings are now proper.
 
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