Big Government Wants a Black Box in YOUR Car

ICOM

2[H]4U
Joined
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2,194
Sad...

But the government could save a lot of money (perish the thought) and just log your phone info...

I was thinking along those lines. All the government has to do is demand data that corporate amerika has already been collecting on us.
 

whiz187

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
337
One most important issue.

The Greenies here in CA have been trying to get a road tax based on miles driven for a few years now. The data recorder will monitor this and provide the info. Get ready people it is coming to your town soon.

Think about it. The guy currently driving an electric car pays no gasoline tax. (About .63 cents a gallon Fed & State) The guy driving a Hummer pays a bundle. They push for fuel efficent cars and electrics, but have now seen the light. We are loosing money, we can't have that.
 

Mini-Me

Gawd
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Messages
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Yet the very ones implementing these tactics are the very same ones committing the worst atrocities of all. Yet my speeding is something the planet as a whole should fear!


Wars for profit (murder, pillage, rape, slaughter, massacre,etc)
False flag attacks on the civilian population
The Internally (only what they wish to release) audited federal reserve (not federal, privately owned).
The stripping of the constitution, freedom of speech, etc
NDAA, SOPA, PIPA, CIPA, patriot act, etc
" The hardest thing in the world to understand is the Income Tax." Albert Einstein (lol, yeah, this guy said it!)

Just to name a few off the top of my head. Open your ears and eyes....

There's a war going on, and it's against you! It's just paced slowly so the dumb people fall back on their right to forgetfulness.


Small quibble: The Federal Reserve isn't as private as you imply. It's privately owned, but the majority of actual control over its operation traces back to the office of the President. In short, it's a "special purpose vehicle" of the federal government, which is a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" arrangement:

Shareholder banks get a small cut of the money flowing through system (via dividends), which ends up being a huge amount of money, since the banking system is artificially placed in the center of the economy by means of a debt-based monetary system. (The interest on loans is returned to the Treasury, minus operating costs and these dividends.)

Meanwhile, the government gets an unlimited line of credit backed by infinite credit creation power, yet they don't have to take responsibility for printing money/expanding credit.

In other words, the Federal Reserve system is not a drain on the government in the way that some believe (those who think that everything would be alright if Congress recaptured the authority to print money...it wouldn't be alright). Rather, it's a win/win for the government and its banker friends: Congress gets all of the money they want, and they don't have to take any responsibility for making it...for a small fee, of course. ;)

Other than that, I totally agree with your post. The black box legislation is just a small piece of infrastructure for the out-of-control government's control grid...a grid they're trying to impose so they can stay out-of-control indefinitely without anyone being able to do anything about it.
 

Mini-Me

Gawd
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Messages
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...another thought: When it comes to special purpose vehicles, the government is a bit of a special case as well. What is it called when something is privately owned but controlled by the government? (Hint: That's how things worked in Nazi Germany.) Fascism.
 

Conker

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 1, 2004
Messages
3,025
Automatic tickets, automatic smog violations, full surveillance, full sound recording of you in the car, maybe even video, all automatically extracting money from your bank account on the fly while your in your car driving still, no more highway cops needed, no more car chases as they will automatically shut off your car or override with remote controls.

In the future you will only live to eat and be a slave to the system. A slob of goo on a chair being fed government censored utopian media. If you want free money and free food (aka socialism) your going to have to give up all your rights and privileges. Gotta give to get. I'm not willing to do that. ;)
 

ShamisOMally

[H]ard|Gawd
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More then 95% of car accidents on the road is the result of speeding, personally all I see having black boxes in cars is it keeps retards from lying about what caused their accident

In which case, yes, put black boxes in cars, make people accountable for driving like idiots.
 

Cmdrmonkey

Gawd
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Messages
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Which reminds me, I need to renew my passport while that's still an option. I'm getting really scared that I may have to leave the country.
 

Starcrossed

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If either party is going to operate a police-state in this country, it sure as hell won't be the Democrats.
 

ShamisOMally

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More then 95% of car accidents on the road is the result of speeding, personally all I see having black boxes in cars is it keeps retards from lying about what caused their accident

In which case, yes, put black boxes in cars, make people accountable for driving like idiots.

There's a somewhat similar reporting system in cars anyways, since I think 2001-2002 all fuel injected cars monitor the cars speed for the last 30 seconds I think in the event of a crash with the airbag deployed. You would be amazed at the excessive bitching speedsters do when the data shows they were speeding beforehand, and even faced with the data go "I WASN'T SPEEDING!" bullshit

Before that, the back of the needles on dials had a coating on it, that after a crash the back of the needle would smash against the dial face and MARK exactly how fast they were going before the crash. And again, the "Dial is always lying" and "I wasn't driving that fast"

This "Black box" far as I can read is just a data recorder that monitors how fast you are going, how hard you accelerate and brake etc.Why are people flipping out about this? People take driving for fucking granted these days, driving 3-6 tons of machinery without fucking thinking.

And I am one of those victims of assholes that speed, once was a fucker T-boning me through a red light, too which he claimed "I wasn't speeding, the road was slick" and the digital 30 second memory caught that the fucker never braked, and another time was when a Z-71 -RAN ME OVER- when I was on my motorcycle, cause he jump changed lanes reflexively cause he was trying too get around a car infront of him too beat a light, THAT speedster cost me a day in the hospital, a bleeding kidney and a month of leave, and I had a psychotic break after because of the stress

So yes, bring on the black box, I 100% support it, drivers are fucking retards on the road, its about time they are held accountable
 

[H]exx

2[H]4U
Joined
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Messages
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**Warning** I read the first few posts and jumped to reply **Warning**

This has probably already been said, if not, great. Most new cars already have black boxes in their cars. I think it was in '96 that they started putting them in. Look under your passenger side seat...it's most likely there.

Stop freaking out Internet!
 

hity645

Supreme [H]ardness
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Messages
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[H]exx;1038630211 said:
**Warning** I read the first few posts and jumped to reply **Warning**

This has probably already been said, if not, great. Most new cars already have black boxes in their cars. I think it was in '96 that they started putting them in. Look under your passenger side seat...it's most likely there.

Stop freaking out Internet!

Besides potato chips and fries I found nothing. My car is a 2002.
 

ShamisOMally

[H]ard|Gawd
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Besides potato chips and fries I found nothing. My car is a 2002.

If your car has electronic fuel injection, since 2001-2002 the last 30 seconds before a crash is recorded directly into the ECU (Electronic Control Units) memory
 

pxc

Extremely [H]
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I just read it and it doesn't seem scary. Any fears would really depend on what additional information would go into it. For example, if a car does not have a navigation system, there is no tracking data stored because it isn't collected without a GPS device available.

The text spells out that the data belongs to the owner of the car, and consent is required by that owner to access it, with a couple of exclusions.

I can see there possibly being some worrying if a court order is obtained and the car is collecting GPS data, but it mostly looks like what's currently in many cars now... which, BTW, have no protections for the owner of the vehicle controlling who can access the data stored inside.

SEC. 31406. VEHICLE EVENT DATA RECORDERS.
(a) Mandatory Event Data Recorders-

(1) IN GENERAL- Not later than 180 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall revise part 563 of title 49, Code of Federal Regulations, to require, beginning with model year 2015, that new passenger motor vehicles sold in the United States be equipped with an event data recorder that meets the requirements under that part.

(2) PENALTY- The violation of any provision under part 563 of title 49, Code of Federal Regulations--

(A) shall be deemed to be a violation of section 30112 of title 49, United States Code;

(B) shall be subject to civil penalties under section 30165(a) of that title; and

(C) shall not subject a manufacturer (as defined in section 30102(a)(5) of that title) to the requirements under section 30120 of that title.

(b) Limitations on Information Retrieval-

(1) OWNERSHIP OF DATA- Any data in an event data recorder required under part 563 of title 49, Code of Federal Regulations, regardless of when the passenger motor vehicle in which it is installed was manufactured, is the property of the owner, or in the case of a leased vehicle, the lessee of the passenger motor vehicle in which the data recorder is installed.

(2) PRIVACY- Data recorded or transmitted by such a data recorder may not be retrieved by a person other than the owner or lessee of the motor vehicle in which the recorder is installed unless--

(A) a court authorizes retrieval of the information in furtherance of a legal proceeding;

(B) the owner or lessee consents to the retrieval of the information for any purpose, including the purpose of diagnosing, servicing, or repairing the motor vehicle;

(C) the information is retrieved pursuant to an investigation or inspection authorized under section 1131(a) or 30166 of title 49, United States Code, and the personally identifiable information of the owner, lessee, or driver of the vehicle and the vehicle identification number is not disclosed in connection with the retrieved information; or

(D) the information is retrieved for the purpose of determining the need for, or facilitating, emergency medical response in response to a motor vehicle crash.

(c) Report to Congress- Two years after the date of implementation of subsection (a), the Secretary shall study the safety impact and the impact on individual privacy of event data recorders in passenger motor vehicles and report its findings to the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation of the Senate and the Committee on Energy and Commerce of the House of Representatives. The report shall include--

(1) the safety benefits gained from installation of event data recorders;

(2) the recommendations on what, if any, additional data the event data recorder should be modified to record;

(3) the additional safety benefit such information would yield;

(4) the estimated cost to manufacturers to implement the new enhancements;

(5) an analysis of how the information proposed to be recorded by an event data recorder conforms to applicable legal, regulatory, and policy requirements regarding privacy;

(6) a determination of the risks and effects of collecting and maintaining the information proposed to be recorded by an event data recorder;

(7) an examination and evaluation of the protections and alternative processes for handling information recorded by an event data recorder to mitigate potential privacy risks.

(d) Revised Requirements for Event Data Recorders- Based on the findings of the study under subsection (c), the Secretary shall initiate a rulemaking proceeding to revise part 563 of title 49, Code of Federal Regulations. The rule--

(1) shall require event data recorders to capture and store data related to motor vehicle safety covering a reasonable time period before, during, and after a motor vehicle crash or airbag deployment, including a rollover;

(2) shall require that data stored on such event data recorders be accessible, regardless of vehicle manufacturer or model, with commercially available equipment in a specified data format;

(3) shall establish requirements for preventing unauthorized access to the data stored on an event data recorder in order to protect the security, integrity, and authenticity of the data; and

(4) may require an interoperable data access port to facilitate universal accessibility and analysis.

(e) Disclosure of Existence and Purpose of Event Data Recorder- The rule issued under subsection (d) shall require that any owner’s manual or similar documentation provided to the first purchaser of a passenger motor vehicle for purposes other than resale--

(1) disclose that the vehicle is equipped with such a data recorder; and

(2) explain the purpose of the data recorder.

(f) Access to Event Data Recorders in Agency Investigations- Section 30166(c)(3)(C) of title 49, United States Code, is amended by inserting ‘, including any electronic data contained within the vehicle’s diagnostic system or event data recorder’ after ‘equipment.’

(g) Deadline for Rulemaking- The Secretary shall issue a final rule under subsection (d) not later than 4 years after the date of enactment of this Act.
 

Mini-Me

Gawd
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Messages
567
Why are people flipping out about this?

It's a big deal because a mandatory black box in a car can be used for a LOT MORE than what you want it to be used for, and once it's mandatory by law, the capabilities that are added to it, and what they will be used for, will be totally out of your control or even the control of legislators.
 

sd11

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Messages
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It's a big deal because a mandatory black box in a car can be used for a LOT MORE than what you want it to be used for, and once it's mandatory by law, the capabilities that are added to it, and what they will be used for, will be totally out of your control or even the control of legislators.

Again, corporations already do far worse. If you want to get up in arms about abuse that's fine. But it's private industry you should be worried about.
 

Mini-Me

Gawd
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Messages
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Again, corporations already do far worse. If you want to get up in arms about abuse that's fine. But it's private industry you should be worried about.

Corporations and government are in bed with each other. It's MANDATES that you should be most worried about.
 

sd11

[H]ard|Gawd
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Corporations and government are in bed with each other. It's MANDATES that you should be most worried about.

No, private industry bought and corrupted government after making it far to weak by fear mongering people (thanks to that jackas Ronald the idiot) and it's all gone to shit since.
 

Mini-Me

Gawd
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Messages
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To clarify: Corporate breaches of privacy are awful, but at least you have the legal option of working around them for the most part (and when you can't, the fascist partnership between corporations and government undermines any claims of them being "private"). The government on the other hand is hellbent on a total control grid to secure their dominance long after peaceful revolution becomes impossible. Corporations creepily data mine, profile, and impose control over your tech devices for their own ultimately financial purposes, but all of this is increasingly becoming accessible to the government as well as an asset to their own control grid...and the more power they gain over us, how do they use it? They use it on behalf of corporations and other powerful interests, completing the circle. Corporations are powerful and often sinister by themselves, but the government's monopoly on the use of force makes it an extremely dangerous blunt instrument that corporations and other powerful interests use to their advantage...and a police state is a means of safeguarding their control over that tool.
 

sd11

[H]ard|Gawd
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Government doesn't have a monopoly on the use of force, corporations use for all the time, granted it was worse in the past, when they were murdering labor advocates, but it's still there.
 

Mini-Me

Gawd
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Messages
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They can only do so with the blessing of government. Government IS a monopoly on the legal use of force. They can selectively prosecute others who use force or violence of course, but the entire point of government - for good or ill - is to serve as a monopolistic source of and enforcement tool for "the law."
 

sd11

[H]ard|Gawd
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They can only do so with the blessing of government. Government IS a monopoly on the legal use of force. They can selectively prosecute others who use force or violence of course, but the entire point of government - for good or ill - is to serve as a monopolistic source of and enforcement tool for "the law."

Which is only corrupted when corporations buy the government out. We have options to fix this, but they offend conservatives so much (because they want to buy it to crush labor and get their bigot on) we can't.
 

Mini-Me

Gawd
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Which is only corrupted when corporations buy the government out. We have options to fix this, but they offend conservatives so much (because they want to buy it to crush labor and get their bigot on) we can't.

You seem to be taking a partisan view of this, as if we'd be just fine if only those "conservatives" would get out of the way and let government have (or exercise) even more regulatory power. Corruption is the nature of centralized power though: As long as so much power rests in a single institution, it's an irresistible target for takeover.

Corruption goes far beyond campaign financing and other such things. Wealthy interests groom political candidates and give them all the resources they need to advance...and if corporations were flat-out outlawed, other entrenched interests would take their place. Good people can take power back for a time, but good people are simply not attracted to power the way that narcissists and psychopaths are, so political, bureaucratic, and law enforcement positions invariably fall to the people who want it the most, and who are willing to do whatever it takes to advance. Conscience is huge a liability when you're trying to gain power in ANY institution - government, corporation, labor union, non-profit...anything - which weeds out the vast majority of people who get in to actually make a difference. It's been like this since the dawn of civilization, since long before corporations were ever thought up...corporations which exist as government-created constructs in the first place (limited liability is a special privilege granted by government which shields actual shareholders from legal responsibility and the burden of actually caring how the corporation behaves).

You're never going to be able to change the inherent tendency of institutions to become corrupt. It's the very nature of groups themselves. The only thing you can do is decentralize power as much as possible, so that inherently corruptible corporations and governments (and labor unions, etc.) have no choice but to compete for people. The worst possible mistake we can make is to grant a single centralized government too much power...too much power in so few hands inevitably turns out horribly, and it is inevitably weaponized against the people.

The only solution - and I stress the only solution - is to radically downscale and strictly limit centralized government, so it does not have the power to arbitrarily tell people what to do. Decentralize power to the states and beyond, so people can live in the least restrictive areas.

This extends to regulation: It is a naive view to think that regulations are created to protect consumers or workers. A lot of legislators even fool themselves into believing they're sticking it to big corporations, but what regulations really do is artificially increase both the fixed and proportional costs of doing business, which undermines small competition, exacerbates economies of scale, and puts artificial pressure on industries to consolidate. (Fixed costs include legal concerns and paperwork, and even size-proportional costs hurt small companies more, because they don't have the cash reserves to take losses for as long.) Huge megacorporations are inefficient, so they technically shouldn't always have a market advantage despite economies of scale...but they do, "surprisingly" in the most heavily regulated industries like energy and food (small farms are constantly shut down and raided by SWAT teams over noncompliance with regulations, which are increasingly beefed up precisely for this reason). Meanwhile, this lack of efficiency means there's less being produced to go around, so everyone's real wages are lower than they otherwise should be.

Republican propaganda talks about deregulation, but they only deregulate selectively, and the laws on the books grow every day and vastly outweigh the ones that are repealed...and agencies in the executive branch often have carte blanche to come up with their own rules, when they have a revolving door with the industries they're regulating (impossible to close, because there will always be loopholes). Democratic propaganda talks about how we're underregulated and living in some kind of laissez-faire Gilded Age, when you can barely start up a lemonade stand in reality without dealing with potential legal problems. This cannot be solved by "getting good people into office to create good regulations." This can only be solved by taking regulatory power entirely out of the hands of the government. Taking the power of force (via government) out of the hands of corporations is the only way to come remotely close to leveling the playing field. Putting it in someone else's hands is just putting it in someone else's hands...to use against you.
 

Bankie

[H]ard|Gawd
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[20 years in the future]

"Who cares if they're trying to improve auto safety by recording your in-car conversations? They've been doing it since 2027 so it doesn't matter!"

:D
 
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Here's exactly what I did over the last 20 minutes:

*Reads article*

"Um, okay, I should probably read the actual bill proposal."

*Reads bill proposal*

"...Wait, what?"

*Reads article, again*

"I have no f%$#ing clue where they got that conclusion from."

The author misread the bill proposal, took it to an illogical extreme (and completely disregarded parts of the bill that effectively defang his argument, like the part that says, "Unless asked for by a court justice in a legal proceeding, the data collected by the recording device belongs to the owner of the vehicle") and then spent the second half of the article on a rambling conspiracy jaunt in the same vein (even the part about revoking passports makes sense in the proper context - if I owed someone $50k, I'd sure as hell try leaving the country... but I can't if I don't have a passport).

But, hey, InfoWars is the property of Alex Jones, self-described libertarian paleoconservative, so effectively anything that doesn't protect property rights, encourage decentralization, or keep our country firmly rooted in the late 1700's (despite the fact paleoconservatism espouses exactly the opposite idealism of our country's foundation, and is in fact a form of neo-liberalism) is essentially 'big government'.

Or, in short: Way to over-react, folks.

Quoting this good post because everyone needs read it again.

The paranoia here is baseless. EDR boxes are objectively good things to have in a vehicle.
 

Modred189

Can't Read the OP
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And even if a bill were LATER to be passed that allowed them to do "too much" that's what the Supreme Court is for. Again, remember the recent warrantless GPS tracking decision.
 

Serpent

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Judges are not incorruptible.
And I didn't hear much about the ending to the warrantless searches (or i forgot it), but since you brought it up, in that context, I'm guessing it ended badly for the people who did it. Still, this seems to be a different case, while those are plainly unlawful, this bill seems like they can be "interpreted" in a different way.
 

FurbySlayer

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driving is a privilege, not a right, in the end it wont be a matter of privacy, just a requirement for your ability to drive.

like submitting to a breathalyzer, you can refuse, but lose your license for a period of time, even if you are stone cold sober.
 

eggrock

Supreme [H]ardness
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*starts car*

"Oh, it's you. It's been a long time."

*doors lock*

Oh shit.
 

Modred189

Can't Read the OP
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Judges are not incorruptible.
And I didn't hear much about the ending to the warrantless searches (or i forgot it), but since you brought it up, in that context, I'm guessing it ended badly for the people who did it. Still, this seems to be a different case, while those are plainly unlawful, this bill seems like they can be "interpreted" in a different way.

It's actually quite close. Essentially, the feds in question continued to collect GPS data from a drug dealer after the 30 day warrant expired (neglecting to renew it because, as they testified, they thought they could get away with it). It was during this off-warrant period that they collected some condemning evidence that was admitted in the lower courts. The SCOTUS said that the collection of location data required a warrant.

Same here. Even if your black box collects everything the government still needs a warrant to get it and use it against you, let alone 5 seconds of data preceding an airbag deployment.
 

TheGer

Weaksauce
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This has been going on since '97. The only difference now is they will be eavesdropping on you now too.

Word to the wise. Anytime they say they are "thinking about releasing" something, it is a done deal already off the assembly line.

Just look at the naked body scanners of the TSA. OMg the Underwear Bomber! We need to have Naked Body Scanners in all Airports! OMG so lucky they were already built and sitting in a warehouse ready to go(it's like they knew something). Not like the Govt. didn't get him on the plane with no Passport or anything(came out at his trial and from other sources).

Wake up.
 

ebduncan

[H]ard|Gawd
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sigh.

its just a black box. I ensure you it would be the very first thing i take out of the car.

However, i would be happier if the bill didn't pass at all, and i have to remove some stupid box from my car and pay a higher price of this car, because they had to include a black box.

driving is a privilege, not a right, in the end it wont be a matter of privacy, just a requirement for your ability to drive.

like submitting to a breathalyzer, you can refuse, but lose your license for a period of time, even if you are stone cold sober.

That's what police officers say. Truth is most Americans live 5 or miles away from where they work. We have crap for public transportation unless you live in a BIG city, even then the fear of confrontation (shady characters) will get you is quite high. Only because of the government did they make driving a privilege than a right. Why? so they could control you.

The government as of late has the mentality "We know whats best for you, and your Money" My response screw you i know whats best for me and my money. Sad part they know how to be sneaky as hell and add one little provision in a bill of 1000 some pages that literally screws us, and everyone misses it after its a 1000+ page document. So these little provisions screw us, slowly giving the government more power to do as they wish. Truth is the American Government is failing its people. Soon enough they will piss of more and more of Us and we will serve them with a Revolution!
 

Thuleman

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The stripping of the constitution, freedom of speech, etc.
Confirming that there is currently a bill under consideration to revise the constitution to remove the freedom of speech part.

There's a war going on, and it's against you! It's just paced slowly so the dumb people fall back on their right to forgetfulness.[/QUOTE]
You and I are on opposite sides of this "war", so I am ok with that.
 

TechLarry

Can't find the G Spot
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This is what happens when you have Dr. Raymond Cocteau as president.

Be well.
 

Jorona

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Eh, I guess this is another reason for my next car to be a classic. Always wanted some Detroit Muscle.

Just one more reason to organize the masses.
 

Starcrossed

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Eh, I guess this is another reason for my next car to be a classic. Always wanted some Detroit Muscle.

Just one more reason to organize the masses.

Yes, I think you should organize the masses so Americans everywhere can drive like shit. This is something for which one should fight.~

As much as I like George Orwell, I do not fear the government overstepping their bounds in this sense.

:D
 
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