Bethesda: 'PC development is a headache'

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polonyc2

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Bethesda spokesman Pete Hines has described PC development as a 'headache' thanks to the technical problems brought up by driver and hardware configurations.

'From a technical standpoint, the PC is a headache,' Hines admitted to Joystiq.

'It just is - a million different possibilities of hardware, drivers, etc...As you saw with Rage, all it takes is some bad video card drivers and years of hard work comes off as 'buggy', when in fact it's a really solid, stable game.'

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2011/11/10/bethesda-pc-development-is-a-headache/1
 
God forbid you'd have to try and push the envelope vs staying in the safe world of ancient console hardware.

I just don't buy this every time I see the likes of it.

He's kidding himself if he thinks he's explained away simply what was, and is wrong with Rage. I guess I should be relieved that their game has come off a bit better than Rage across the boards at this rate.

Wow.
 
Q-BZ said:
God forbid you'd have to try and push the envelope vs staying in the safe world of ancient console hardware.

I just don't buy this every time I see the likes of it.

He's kidding himself if he thinks he's explained away simply what was, and is wrong with Rage. I guess I should be relieved that their game has come off a bit better than Rage across the boards at this rate.

Wow.
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It made the situation worse and spiraled into a PR nightmare for Rage.

One thing that is interesting though is if you contrast Rage with Dead Island. Why did one game come off much better in the PR area?

Would id have been better off saying it was a "development" build and claiming the game was developed for PCs and not a port?

Internet mob mentality is sometimes very interesting.
 
limitedaccess said:
It made the situation worse and spiraled into a PR nightmare for Rage.

One thing that is interesting though is if you contrast Rage with Dead Island. Why did one game come off much better in the PR area?

Would id have been better off saying it was a "development" build and claiming the game was developed for PCs and not a port?

Internet mob mentality is sometimes very interesting.
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There's that but the fact is: Carmack and id being who/what they are were expected to not bring an incomplete and buggy product to the table and that's basically what they did regardless of this "oh noes, the PC is a PITA to develop for" garbage smokescreen.

I guess when I see my inevitable tradition of CTDs and the like on Skyrim like I've seen on every other Bethesda game I already know what the front story is going to be on that.
 
limitedaccess said:
One thing that is interesting though is if you contrast Rage with Dead Island. Why did one game come off much better in the PR area?
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because people were expecting more from RAGE given id Software's history with the PC...Dead Island came out of nowhere and people weren't expecting much to begin with
 
Q-BZ said:
There's that but the fact is: Carmack and id being who/what they are were expected to not bring an incomplete and buggy product to the table and that's basically what they did regardless of this "oh noes, the PC is a PITA to develop for" garbage smokescreen.

I guess when I see my inevitable tradition of CTDs and the like on Skyrim like I've seen on every other Bethesda game I already know what the front story is going to be on that.
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It's only a headache because Bethesda has no idea how to make a stable game in the first place. Oblivion and Morrowind were both buggy pieces of shit for a long time. They also ran like ass until the mod community got a hold of them and truly leveraged the engines for what they were worth.
 
Dan_D said:
It's only a headache because Bethesda has no idea how to make a stable game in the first place. Oblivion and Morrowind were both buggy pieces of shit for a long time. They also ran like ass until the mod community got a hold of them and truly leveraged the engines for what they were worth.
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That's right. To a slightly lesser extent the same was true with the Fallout games. To this day I wouldn't know what it was like to play any of those games without a random CTD or some other bugaboo like that, although New Vegas really wasn't that bad for me.

So again, coming off that, even though I really like their games, seeing this kind of smokescreen excuse from one of their people really just doesn't sit very well with me.
 
Dan_D said:
It's only a headache because Bethesda has no idea how to make a stable game in the first place. Oblivion and Morrowind were both buggy pieces of shit for a long time. They also ran like ass until the mod community got a hold of them and truly leveraged the engines for what they were worth.
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Hence me deciding to wait a good long while to buy Skyrim.

Why pay Day 1 money for that when the modding community will give me a much better experience not too long after launch?

Not only that, I will be getting it at a price that reflects the true value of the game :p
 
Bethesda: 'Don't take away our baby blanket, we likes teh security"

Yes I do get what they're saying; but at the same time, Rage wasn't a good game and mega-textures looks like a POS despite the driver issues. And Fallout3? Good god, I got the game years after it was released and still it crashed once an hour...
 
If he's referring to the Rage fiasco and, by extension, the Brink debacle earlier this year, then he need look no farther than AMD's assy OpenGL drivers. Brink was a fucking disaster and from what I hear most of the people who had trouble with Rage being unplayable were on AMD cards as well. I can speak directly to Brink because I had a 4890 back in May, but I switched to a 560 Ti and had no issues with it in Brink or Rage.

In general, I suspect it's a headache to try to cram cutting edge graphics into console platforms with 512MB of memory and 5 year old CPUs and GPUs. It also doesn't seem to be a high priority to equalize the visual quality when games are developed primarily on the 360 and secondarily on the PS3. I get that game development has become a time and money black hole given the enormous increase in complexity and compute power over the past 15 years, but those are the ropes. You didn't hear NASA whining about how its hard to send humans into space.
 
Fail said:
Not only that, I will be getting it at a price that reflects the true value of the game :p
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if ever there was a PC game worth $60, it's Skyrim (BF3 as well)

I paid $47.99 through a Newegg sale but I wouldn't have minded at all paying $60 for this given the amount of content in the game
 
Fail said:
Hence me deciding to wait a good long while to buy Skyrim.

Why pay Day 1 money for that when the modding community will give me a much better experience not too long after launch?

Not only that, I will be getting it at a price that reflects the true value of the game :p
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Good lord you never miss a chance to push your crusade of the day in any thread, do you?
 
TwistedAegis said:
Good lord you never miss a chance to push your crusade of the day in any thread, do you?
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Dan_D made some good points, and my points echo and reflect the same thing he's saying as I apply it to what the game is worth when assigning it a monetary value.

I'm sorry if you don't like my posts, you're free to place me on ignore.
 
polonyc2 said:
'It just is - a million different possibilities of hardware, drivers, etc...As you saw with Rage, all it takes is some bad video card drivers and years of hard work comes off as 'buggy', when in fact it's a really solid, stable game.'
[/url]
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There aren't really a million different possibilities, more like a couple dozen variations that will cover 99% of consumer gamers out there.

How hard is it to buy a couple dozen consumer level PCs with different videocards and testing different drivers or even making sure the only two videocard manufacturers have a driver that is compatible with your game before you release it?
 
Spare-Flair said:
There aren't really a million different possibilities, more like a couple dozen variations that will cover 99% of consumer gamers out there.

How hard is it to buy a couple dozen consumer level PCs with different videocards and testing different drivers or even making sure the only two videocard manufacturers have a driver that is compatible with your game before you release it?
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Exactly. And many driver issues cover an entire line of cards, like with the Rage issue. It wasn't as if it was a single 3-year old card; it was the entire current lineup of mid- and high-range cards, if I remember correctly.

I remember when game studios were excited to push the envelope and try and invent new things; now we have an entire industry in cruise control upset when they actually have to program something new.
 
TwistedAegis said:
I remember when game studios were excited to push the envelope and try and invent new things; now we have an entire industry in cruise control upset when they actually have to program something new.
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Fond memories, those are.

How'd we lose that? How could we ever get things moving back in that direction?



LeninGHOLA said:
Unified effing drivers
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Hmmm...that could help.
 
Deads0uls said:
I will never give up PC gaming!
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Neither will I but when I read...someone said the right word...whining from game devs like I see in the first post I just wonder which way the winds are blowing with some of these folks.
 
Q-BZ said:
Nah, Fail ain'a troll.

Fail is just...Fail. He's his own classification. ;)
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It isn't about me, I'd rather you guys read my posts, think critically, then reach your own conclusions, I don't have a problem with people choosing to agree or disagree with what I say.
 
Sometimes, all it takes is enough folks getting the game, going to their forums, and being helpful in what they need to do to fix it right for us.

Belly ching, and waiting till it hits the bargain bin, truly does not help them want to make it the best way they can. I am getting it day one, already pre-ordered and being shipped, I support Bethesda, even when they have bugs, they try to do the best they can, and lord forbid if things are not perfect, no one can nor should promise that.

All I care about is, a fun, gorgeous, entertaining experience. At least one thing can be said about Bethesda in general, if there is a bug/fix they let us know, Oblivion, fallout 3, new vegas, all had bugs, known issues, at least they did not sweep it under the rug, anywhere near as bad as Ubisoft or EA like to do 99% of the time.

They make the games we like, support them and I am 100% positive they will continue to try to do the best they can for thier loyal fanbase this I can be sure of.:D
 
Fail said:
It isn't about me, I'd rather you guys read my posts, think critically, then reach your own conclusions, I don't have a problem with people choosing to agree or disagree with what I say.
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Oh, I know although it is fun to watch sometimes when someone does disagree with you. ;)


Shoot, you're one of several regulars around here that frankly, the place would be more boring if you weren't around so it's all good. We have an interesting cast of characters 'round here. :)
 
Q-BZ said:
There's that but the fact is: Carmack and id being who/what they are were expected to not bring an incomplete and buggy product to the table and that's basically what they did regardless of this "oh noes, the PC is a PITA to develop for" garbage smokescreen.

I guess when I see my inevitable tradition of CTDs and the like on Skyrim like I've seen on every other Bethesda game I already know what the front story is going to be on that.
Click to expand...

But to me this is the community lashing out when it was they themselves who gave the game false hype.

All the information coming out about Rage actually suggested it would not be an approach similar to previous id games. The game was even demoed on the iphone to showcase the engines scalability... I would even post why people should not get all that excited about id tech 5 (remember the "I wish Skyrim were id tech 5" sentiment?).

While Dead Island actually marketed itself as a PC game, done with attention in house and not a port. Also used CG movies as the main media vs. in more in game oriented.

By the way for Dead Island buyers, what was the eventual "make up" the developer promised for the poor launch?

For record I have no preference for either game.

krameriffic said:
If he's referring to the Rage fiasco and, by extension, the Brink debacle earlier this year, then he need look no farther than AMD's assy OpenGL drivers. Brink was a fucking disaster and from what I hear most of the people who had trouble with Rage being unplayable were on AMD cards as well. I can speak directly to Brink because I had a 4890 back in May, but I switched to a 560 Ti and had no issues with it in Brink or Rage.

In general, I suspect it's a headache to try to cram cutting edge graphics into console platforms with 512MB of memory and 5 year old CPUs and GPUs. It also doesn't seem to be a high priority to equalize the visual quality when games are developed primarily on the 360 and secondarily on the PS3. I get that game development has become a time and money black hole given the enormous increase in complexity and compute power over the past 15 years, but those are the ropes. You didn't hear NASA whining about how its hard to send humans into space.
Click to expand...

A fun tidbit from the past, but Doom 3 had issues and controversy surrounding Nvidia and ATI drivers at the time (shocking!).

But the difference was back then community attitude towards ATI vs Nvidia was very different than now.
 
dragonstongue said:
Sometimes, all it takes is enough folks getting the game, going to their forums, and being helpful in what they need to do to fix it right for us.

Belly ching, and waiting till it hits the bargain bin, truly does not help them want to make it the best way they can. I am getting it day one, already pre-ordered and being shipped, I support Bethesda, even when they have bugs, they try to do the best they can, and lord forbid if things are not perfect, no one can nor should promise that.

All I care about is, a fun, gorgeous, entertaining experience. At least one thing can be said about Bethesda in general, if there is a bug/fix they let us know, Oblivion, fallout 3, new vegas, all had bugs, known issues, at least they did not sweep it under the rug, anywhere near as bad as Ubisoft or EA like to do 99% of the time.

They make the games we like, support them and I am 100% positive they will continue to try to do the best they can for thier loyal fanbase this I can be sure of.:D
Click to expand...

You make a good point here about being constructive. I do see some devs out there that have great interaction with gamers and it shows up in their games.



limitedaccess said:
But to me this is the community lashing out when it was they themselves who gave the game false hype.

All the information coming out about Rage actually suggested it would not be an approach similar to previous id games. The game was even demoed on the iphone to showcase the engines scalability... I would even post why people should not get all that excited about id tech 5 (remember the "I wish Skyrim were id tech 5" sentiment?).
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've said that myself. When months of "console this, console that, we're going to move heaven and Earth to get 60fps on the consoles" was all we saw...I certainly went in into it with fairly moderate expectations and played a game that I thought was wholly unremarkable but I'd played a lot worse. Graphics were a big letdown in areas, too. That kind of wall to wall rhetoric for months warned me and overtook anything else including "this is id and Carmack!"

The angrier folks around here clearly had their hopes up a lot higher than I did.

Yes, I understand that it was Carmack and id and what that was supposed to mean but frankly, I gave up a while back paying attention to names. They proved that point for me.




While Dead Island actually marketed itself as a PC game, done with attention in house and not a port. Also used CG movies as the main media vs. in more in game oriented.

By the way for Dead Island buyers, what was the eventual "make up" the developer promised for the poor launch?

For record I have no preference for either game.
Click to expand...

Dead Island is a disaster. I'm glad I didn't buy it. I have a few friends that did in addition to feedback on forums like these. Too bad. That game could have been cool.


A fun tidbit from the past, but Doom 3 had issues and controversy surrounding Nvidia and ATI drivers at the time (shocking!).

But the difference was back then community attitude towards ATI vs Nvidia was very different than now.
Click to expand...

True.
 
Q-BZ said:
Fond memories, those are.

How'd we lose that? How could we ever get things moving back in that direction?
Click to expand...

The consoles. No I'm not being a fanboy, here are my reasons:

You have the stable platform that makes it easier to program for - less dev time. You have a larger audience - more profits.

PC's are more complex and require more dev time and there is a smaller audience, yet PC gamers want to pay the same price as consoles. And in fact, there is constant bitching in these forums about even paying $60 for games.

Face it - PC's are becoming the "luxury gaming" platform while console's are the mass market. Either get used to paying luxury prices or expect to play nothing but console ports.
 
TwistedAegis said:
The consoles. No I'm not being a fanboy, here are my reasons:

You have the stable platform that makes it easier to program for - less dev time. You have a larger audience - more profits.

PC's are more complex and require more dev time and there is a smaller audience, yet PC gamers want to pay the same price as consoles. And in fact, there is constant bitching in these forums about even paying $60 for games.

Face it - PC's are becoming the "luxury gaming" platform while console's are the mass market. Either get used to paying luxury prices or expect to play nothing but console ports.
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Can't deny any of that.
 
Well...it IS a pain in the ass platform to develop for, but that hasn't stopped legions of developers from releasing stable, well-written games.
 
The REAL tragedy with Rage..... it's boring. If it had come out before Fallout 3 or Borderlands, it might have fared better.

And ATI/AMD drivers have always sucked balls, that should come as a shock to exactly no one.
 
Well, the indie devs seem to do just fine on the platform.
 
This instant gratification console generation has really made these developers and publishers lazy. I'm really interested to see what Warner Bros' Arkham City as instore for us PC gamers. I have the system so I want all the bells and whistles, not some gimped version running off of 6 year old tech.
 
Ruoh said:
Well, the indie devs seem to do just fine on the platform.
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I would argue for the most part that their games are less complex and smaller in scope, so you won't run into as many issues.

But anyway...any argument Bethesda wants to make about Rage, I would just load up BF3 Caspian Border, point and stare at them. "I'm sorry, you were arguing about complexity, but I lost you as I was staring at the grass and flowers and trees and 64 people running around while Rage was still loading MUDDY_TEXTURE_234."
 
polonyc2 said:
As you saw with Rage, all it takes is some bad video card drivers and years of hard work comes off as 'buggy', when in fact it's a really solid, stable game.'
Click to expand...
... that looks like shit on the PC.

Seriously, how removed from reality does one have to be to make statements about stability when the game is lacking in pretty much all other aspects.
 
All I know if Devs completely quit developing for the PC i'm going to quit gaming. I cannot stand playing on a gamepad unless its a platform jumper or a Final Fantasty series. Long live keyboard and mouse!
 
fdiaz78 said:
All I know if Devs completely quit developing for the PC i'm going to quit gaming. I cannot stand playing on a gamepad unless its a platform jumper or a Final Fantasty series. Long live keyboard and mouse!
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There are pricey keyboard alternatives such as the XIM3, $150.

Which if you combine with the console hardware and other costs, and that I still want a relatively up to date PC for other reasons, I'd end up spending more probably than I do today on gaming :p
 
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