Barton v. Thoroughbred

[locutus24]

Im planning to build a comp in a couple of months, would go 64 but i dont feel the need to even though it is the ownage. Anyways whats the diff between the two different core types, i want to get barton for its L2 512k cache. Would Thoroughbred be the better choice of the two, cause i have already began my plan of attack for doing some oc'ing. Does that change anything if so what can i oc better.

 

[valeriyk]

I would reccomend bartons, I believe it uses the .13u process, not sure about the thoroughbred, and you can usually OC them pretty well

 

[Nazo]

Barton is .13. In my experience, it OCs more.

Get a 2x00+ mobile barton. Trust me, they are NICE. Worth the extra $10 or whatever it is these days... Most 2500+Ms and 2600+Ms will see 3200+ speeds in a decently cooled system. Below that I can't say for certain, though you should still expect good results on any of them.

When I bought this 2600+, it was $90 and the 3200+ was about $210. You do the math... Currently idling at 37C. What does the 3200+ idle at? d-:

 

[SmokeRngs]

Definitely go with the Barton. Clock for clock, they are faster than the T-Breds and generally overclock better.

I second the suggestion of going with the mobile Barton. Mine does 2.5 Ghz with no trouble at all. I have an EXOS running it but I could probably get the same out of good air cooling. They are the overclock champs of the Bartons.

 

[Nazo]

You maybe could. My 2600+ does 2.5 with my current cooler, which is a very good cooler, but, no zalman (hey, I'm not rich here...)

I suppose there's no major benefit of choosing the 2600+ over, say the 2500+. I don't know about 2400+ or whatever. The 2500+ says it uses less power, but, that's at stock, so I don't know how the effects scale. For all I can say for certain, the 2600+ isn't really any different, just running at a higher stock multiplier. Wish I could set higher than a 12.5x multiplier on this board. *sigh*

 

[locutus24]

Well ok then i have decided to go with a barton 2500+, but anyone care to explain why the 2500+ barton is $75 when the 2200+ t-bred is $95.

 

[Nazo]

Cheaper to make a barton that runs at that speed than a thoroughbred I believe is what it is.

BTW, I should warn you of one thing with the mobiles if you were planning on a 2500+M. In a desktop system, they don't show up quite right since they were made for laptops instead. You'll have to manually set fsb, multiplier, and voltage. The upside is, you are guaranteed to be able to do so due to the fact that laptops have to be able to change the multiplier and voltage as needed (fsb is the board, so they can't stop you from changing that.) Another thing. In most boards, multipliers higher than 12.5x are unavailable with the mobiles. They wrap down to a lower number. 6.0 I think is what you get with 13, and up from there. Still, 200x12.5 = 2.5GHz, so that's pretty well off anyway. Anyway, my point is, if you don't know how to work with those things it's a bit troublesome, though not really THAT hard to learn. It will run on defaults, but, it will be 1GHz or so.

Also, just ignore it when the BIOS and Windows report "Unkown CPU Typ" for it. Every software I've used that even cares what CPU I have can tell that it's an Athlon XP.

 

[valeriyk]

And, they're newer, stores have less stock so they probably raise the prices, whereas Barton's are still in use for the most part, and they use a smaller process which means more per die

 

[ddogunl]

2400+ xp-m barton OCs fine - I'm running mine @ 2.2 GHz (11 x 200) and 1.65 volts...probably could go higher, but I don't want to go past 1.75 volts...and I am using a Zalman CNPS-7000A, so idle temps = 36 C.

 

[Bugalaman]

barton = teh best AXP. It is superior in every way, I didn't even know throughbreds were out there anymore

 

[Dominat0r]

I thought AMD stopped making them. That why they would cost more money, harder to find.

 

[scott77]

Personally I would go with the XP-M...baron core but they're undervolted I just set mine up this week and it's great!

 

[kirbyrj]

I got a XP-M 2200+ up to 3200+ speeds. If you're really looking to save cash, try that.

 

[ALL4AMD]

Barton's are still in use for the most part, and they use a smaller process which means more per die

um no the tbred and barton are on the same 130nm process. tbred is smaller than barton in die size cuz it has 256k less cache. all a barton is as a tbred with 256k more cache. applebred was a barton with 256k disabled but same size die as the barton. on the other hand a palomino used the old 180nm process and was a lot bigger than a tbred die

 

[AKDUDE]

Get a 64, you can get a 90mm Winnie for 50 dollars more than a Barton. Thats 50 bucks well spent.

 

[Dominat0r]

Get a 64, you can get a 90mm Winnie for 50 dollars more than a Barton. Thats 50 bucks well spent.

I couldnt agree more. I bought a 3000+ used on the boards for 100$. The person selling said it wasnt able to hit more then 2100. As soon as i got it i started playing with it and got it to 2160 (240x9). Im going to go for more, but going to stay here cause i belive this is the sweet spot.

First I bought a Epox 9NDA3J from Mwave...board came DOA. Being the impatiant person that I am, i drove to my local Tiger Direct shop (Flagler, Miami, FL) and picked up a Asus A8V Deluxe. This was revision 2 and the PCI/AGP locks were working. I found that the Via chipset (K8T800Pro) was BUGGTY AS HELL. I mean you couldnt even use the VIA AGP driver. You were stuck using the Microsucks driver which is dated 7-21-2001. After a battle with my Asus I decided that this was NOT what I wanted. I swapped it out for a Neo2 Platinum and been nothing but happy since. I got the Neo2 off anandtech forums for 100$ shipped. So for 200$ shipped i got a 3000 winnie and a Neo2 Plat.

All in all, if you can find a GOOD deal on the boards, then you might just get a deal like mine. I saw it and my mouth just dropped. 100$ for a 90nm Winchester? Hell even if it didnt overclock it would still be a good deal.

 

[Nazo]

I presume he has his reasons for wanting to go with Athlon XP atm. A proper Barton oced up to what it can really do isn't SO much less than an cheapo athlon 64 however. Also, bear in mind that you'll have to get a board to put the athlon 64 into, and if that's the old slot type, then you'll be getting another board when you upgrade again, overall costing even more.

Oh, and the mobile bartons aren't undervolted. They are made to run at that voltage at their stock settings. The thing is, stock is running on a 133 FSB. Going to even a 166 requires closer to a non-mobile voltage. My only point is that it's just another example of how they are better made than the non-mobiles.

BTW, if you find a board that can set a higher than 12.5 multiplier, I've heard of people managing to get 2.7GHz out of one of these things on air cooling alone. Even the 4000+ runs at 2.6GHz stock. Ok, it probably OCs a lot more, but, the point is, that's doing pretty well if you manage to pull that off.

 

[SmokeRngs]

Oh, and the mobile bartons aren't undervolted. They are made to run at that voltage at their stock settings. The thing is, stock is running on a 133 FSB. Going to even a 166 requires closer to a non-mobile voltage. My only point is that it's just another example of how they are better made than the non-mobiles.

Technically, the mobile Bartons are undervolted. They are the exact same cores as the desktop Barton, just cherry picked to run at lower voltages for mobile applications. This is one reason why they usually overclock so well. Since they will run much lower stock voltage, it will usually mean it's a very good core that can run much faster than stock.

There is no difference with the core on a mobile Barton and a desktop Barton.

 

[elm669]

BTW, if you find a board that can set a higher than 12.5 multiplier, I've heard of people managing to get 2.7GHz out of one of these things on air cooling alone. Even the 4000+ runs at 2.6GHz stock. Ok, it probably OCs a lot more, but, the point is, that's doing pretty well if you manage to pull that off.

Shuttle AN35N Ultra allows up to 28X I think it is

 

[(cf)Eclipse]

BTW, if you find a board that can set a higher than 12.5 multiplier, I've heard of people managing to get 2.7GHz out of one of these things on air cooling alone. Even the 4000+ runs at 2.6GHz stock. Ok, it probably OCs a lot more, but, the point is, that's doing pretty well if you manage to pull that off.

though i understand your arguement, it is slightly misleading.
please note that the 4000+ is a strained silicon a64, whereas the mobile bartons don't even have SOI

and most newer boards "can" do more than 12.5x, it's just that you need either a cpu with default above 12.5 or do a pin-mod so that you trick the bios into selecting the higher multi.

 

[Nazo]

2600+ runs at 2GHz on a 133 FSB. Well, I'm too lazy to do the math, but, that's a > 12.5 multiplier. The problem apparently is that the mobile is using some kind of different multiplier system. I suppose to allow for a better range or something (maybe so it could go really low.) It's not so much the motherboard as the CPU. I think for the mb to support > 12.5 it has to recognize the CPU and treat the multipliers more like a notebook mb does. At least, this is the understanding I was given. See, if you set a higher multiplier, it doesn't just jump to the default or go to the lowest, it's going to a lower multiplier than is even in the list (list starts at something like 7.5, maybe 8.) What I'm saying with this is it's NOT a matter of finding a cpu with a higher than 12.5x multiplier or a board that supports higher multipliers. My board supports higher, my cpu is supposed to default to higher (note that it boots up at something like 1.3GHz on a 133 FSB in this board.) Mobiles are 100% unlocked. To get higher, you will have to find a board that works with it. BTW, the ASUS nForce 2 also isn't -- at least, the one I used to have.

And I wasn't trying to mislead. I thought I was clear about it, but, no, a A64 isn't directly comparable to a Barton. If it wasn't clear before, sorry. The point was that even the newest AMDs are only just now reaching 2.6GHz stock, so a mobile barton running at 2.6+ isn't exactly doing very badly.

 

[heero884]

2600+ runs at 2GHz on a 133 FSB. Well, I'm too lazy to do the math, but, that's a > 12.5 multiplier. The problem apparently is that the mobile is using some kind of different multiplier system. I suppose to allow for a better range or something (maybe so it could go really low.) It's not so much the motherboard as the CPU. I think for the mb to support > 12.5 it has to recognize the CPU and treat the multipliers more like a notebook mb does. At least, this is the understanding I was given. See, if you set a higher multiplier, it doesn't just jump to the default or go to the lowest, it's going to a lower multiplier than is even in the list (list starts at something like 7.5, maybe 8.) What I'm saying with this is it's NOT a matter of finding a cpu with a higher than 12.5x multiplier or a board that supports higher multipliers. My board supports higher, my cpu is supposed to default to higher (note that it boots up at something like 1.3GHz on a 133 FSB in this board.) Mobiles are 100% unlocked. To get higher, you will have to find a board that works with it. BTW, the ASUS nForce 2 also isn't -- at least, the one I used to have.

And I wasn't trying to mislead. I thought I was clear about it, but, no, a A64 isn't directly comparable to a Barton. If it wasn't clear before, sorry. The point was that even the newest AMDs are only just now reaching 2.6GHz stock, so a mobile barton running at 2.6+ isn't exactly doing very badly.

im not too sure what youre getting at with the mobile and multipliers but anyways i have 2 mobile systems in the house right now. one is a 2600+ axpm on a abit nf7-s and the other is a 2600+ axpm on a msi k7n2 delta L and the multipliers/voltages are working properly on both systems. When you first boot them they will default to the lowest mutliplier and fsb but after you manually change the settings and save it you wont have a problem. Also the abit detects the processor as "unknown" and the msi detects the processors as a "athlon xp mobile". just to let you guys know i do not recommend the msi k7n2 as multipliers 10x and 10.5x do not work and the lowest voltage/highest voltage selectable are 1.55/1.8 which is hardly ideal for silent pc enthiusiasts/overclocking enthiusiasts.

 

[Nazo]

All I'm getting at is that you can't just take a mobile and stick it in just any board and expect to see higher than 12.5x multipliers. The multipliers just don't quite work the same or something. Just, it was said that you need a cpu that uses a higher multiplier than 12.5x by default, well, this CPU runs on 133*15 if you stick it in a notebook mb and boot it up. Due to the low fsb, this CPU has to run at 2GHz to get a "2600+" rating, but, that's what it's made to run at. Not that it matters since all you have to do is put the voltage in the range of a normal Barton and you can get it up to 200 easily.

I don't understand how you get higher than 12.5x though. Are you absolutely sure it's not a different board? I have even flashed to the latest bios, and it neither supports > 12.5x multipliers, nor does it detect the cpu type at a higher multiplier than 10 or so (at lower multipliers it gets the CPU type just fine.) Oh, and 1.8V is actually quite high. I've been getting along with in the 1.6-1.7 range at 2.5GHz and can't imagine having to use beyond 1.8 at 2.7, which is the highest I've really heard of them going under any normal circumstances. Well, Delta-L is the low end, and if you have all that expensive watercooling equipment and can afford all that stuff, you really want to get something more like a DFI lanparty, not what is perhaps the cheapest board that isn't ultra-generic in this range, and I can't feel sorry for anyone who complains that his or her ultra-cheap board doesn't oc as well as they'd hoped. d-:

Oh, and multipliers 10 and 10.5 will not be used. I don't recall ever having troubles with them in my board mind you when I was testing things, and I think my sister is running on that with the same board (she insists on keeping her system inside a shelf, so it gets so ultra-hot even the mobile has to run a bit slow.) Well, it's an improvement on the t-bird she had before it at least.

 

[heero884]

All I'm getting at is that you can't just take a mobile and stick it in just any board and expect to see higher than 12.5x multipliers. The multipliers just don't quite work the same or something. Just, it was said that you need a cpu that uses a higher multiplier than 12.5x by default, well, this CPU runs on 133*15 if you stick it in a notebook mb and boot it up. Due to the low fsb, this CPU has to run at 2GHz to get a "2600+" rating, but, that's what it's made to run at. Not that it matters since all you have to do is put the voltage in the range of a normal Barton and you can get it up to 200 easily.

I don't understand how you get higher than 12.5x though. Are you absolutely sure it's not a different board? I have even flashed to the latest bios, and it neither supports > 12.5x multipliers, nor does it detect the cpu type at a higher multiplier than 10 or so (at lower multipliers it gets the CPU type just fine.) Oh, and 1.8V is actually quite high. I've been getting along with in the 1.6-1.7 range at 2.5GHz and can't imagine having to use beyond 1.8 at 2.7, which is the highest I've really heard of them going under any normal circumstances. Well, Delta-L is the low end, and if you have all that expensive watercooling equipment and can afford all that stuff, you really want to get something more like a DFI lanparty, not what is perhaps the cheapest board that isn't ultra-generic in this range, and I can't feel sorry for anyone who complains that his or her ultra-cheap board doesn't oc as well as they'd hoped. d-:

Oh, and multipliers 10 and 10.5 will not be used. I don't recall ever having troubles with them in my board mind you when I was testing things, and I think my sister is running on that with the same board (she insists on keeping her system inside a shelf, so it gets so ultra-hot even the mobile has to run a bit slow.) Well, it's an improvement on the t-bird she had before it at least.

is this post directed to me? i dont understand what youre trying to say. just to clarify things i did not get the delta-L expecting to do any hardcore overclocking. i got the board used from a friend thinking that i would be able to use it in a silent pc project and he had told me that this board would be good for my purposes but it has not. The delta-L's limited vcore adjustment is hardly ideal for a silent pc project. the 2600+ mobile is able to run at 2ghz @ 1.45volts but the board cannot go that low so it is pushing 1.55volts to the processor which is creating excess heat for this clock speed. Also the lack of working 10x and 10.5x multipliers on my board is not letting me run my mobile at 200x10. If i had known this board had these issues i would have gotten a biostar m7ncd pro. i dont have a excess money to throw around but if i did i would have gotten another abit nf7-s. the dfi lanparty is overrated imo and hasn't worked so nicely for me.

also voltage requirements vs clock speed is not linear. as clock frequency gets higher more and more voltage is needed for the cpu to be stable. my processor boots into windows just fine at 1.75volts but it is not prime95 stable until 1.85 volts hence why im using 1.85volts.

edit: the pc listed in my sig is on a nf7-s

 

[Nazo]

My point was that it's just not as simple as any board will give you > 12.5 with any mobile or not. That's the important thing. You can't just say "oh, the board supports higher, so it's ok" and then stick the cpu in there and wonder why it didn't work. You have to be somewhat careful in what combination you pick out for the system. That's all I've been trying to say because people are so quick to act like you can throw any processor in any system and there won't be any troubles.

As for the voltage, well, if you want a 100% silent system, you are looking at spending rather a lot, so skimping out on the motherboard and then complaining about it is pointless. I mean, the cooling alone costs a bundle. And, if non-100% silent is ok, well, just grab one of these cpu coolers and you're set, the end. At 2GHz on lower voltages, I can't even begin to imagine it ever getting hot enough to be a problem before the motherboard itself gets too hot and reboots anyway (that's right, you get what you pay for.) For high end ocing, I don't know about how much power it needs > 2.5 since that's the highest I can go, but, I'm absolutely rock stable, prime95 with no errors at 2.5 with my current voltage. I set this voltage for when I was running it at 2.5 and, in fact, have been too lazy to try to figure out what I need to run it at for this current speed. As far as going > 1.8 on the voltage, you're going to have to have a pretty expensive cooling system to avoid making it's lifetime that of a snowflake, so again, skimping out on the mb when you spent so much on the cooling seems kind of sad to me. Remember, desktop systems weren't made for mobiles, so, for it's pricerange, that voltage is actually more than the manufacturer had reason to assume should be necessary -- besides, like I said, this is the low end model.

You'll note that newegg doesn't even sell this model anymore. They have the higher end one available, mostly refurbished, but, not this one.

EDIT: You know, I'll bet you have a different revision of this particular board. 10.0 and 10.5x multipliers work fine for me. I get exactly 10.0 or 10.5x my FSB. And, as I said, the issue with higher than 12.5x multipliers isn't due to cpu locks.


As I recall from when I unlocked my old Palomino (man what a waste of time that was,) the way it works is they have certain bridges that control just how high or low the multipliers are. If a certain combination is set, one range is available, if a different combo is set, a different range is available. Now, a mb can override this to some extent, but, it has to designed to and recognize the chip and all (remember, some nForce 2 boards can unlock the Athlon XPs,) but, if it doesn't absolutely know, then it has to just default to what the chip says to use else it could cause damage or at least the inability to boot (ever on that chip.) I personally was afraid to try the wiretrick, and you couldn't pay me enough to mess with those L bridges again.

 

[heero884]

My point was that it's just not as simple as any board will give you > 12.5 with any mobile or not. That's the important thing. You can't just say "oh, the board supports higher, so it's ok" and then stick the cpu in there and wonder why it didn't work. You have to be somewhat careful in what combination you pick out for the system. That's all I've been trying to say because people are so quick to act like you can throw any processor in any system and there won't be any troubles.

errr is this directed to me? who said that?

As for the voltage, well, if you want a 100% silent system, you are looking at spending rather a lot, so skimping out on the motherboard and then complaining about it is pointless. I mean, the cooling alone costs a bundle. And, if non-100% silent is ok, well, just grab one of these cpu coolers and you're set, the end. At 2GHz on lower voltages, I can't even begin to imagine it ever getting hot enough to be a problem before the motherboard itself gets too hot and reboots anyway (that's right, you get what you pay for.)

you must have mistaken me, i wasnt complaining about the board, i was pointing out a few things on the board that i dont like so that if anyone was to decide to get a delta-L that they would know what theyre getting into. and i dont get why you keep saying "you get what you paid for" because the m7ncd pro board is cheaper and is superior to the msi board i got.

As far as going > 1.8 on the voltage, you're going to have to have a pretty expensive cooling system to avoid making it's lifetime that of a snowflake, so again, skimping out on the mb when you spent so much on the cooling seems kind of sad to me.

my trusty mobile has lasted me a couple years so far thanks to my vantec tornado. but then again my hearing may have taken a beating over the years

Remember, desktop systems weren't made for mobiles, so, for it's pricerange, that voltage is actually more than the manufacturer had reason to assume should be necessary -- besides, like I said, this is the low end model.

msi could have easily made the voltage range wider but has chosen not to.

EDIT: You know, I'll bet you have a different revision of this particular board. 10.0 and 10.5x multipliers work fine for me. I get exactly 10.0 or 10.5x my FSB. And, as I said, the issue with higher than 12.5x multipliers isn't due to cpu locks.

yup, my delta-l has multiplier 13x, sorta weird

 

[Nazo]

errr is this directed to me? who said that?

Eclipse was the one who implied you could stick it in any board that has higher multipliers in the bios.

you keep saying "you get what you paid for" because the m7ncd pro board is cheaper and is superior to the msi board i got.

The thing is, MSI is a relatively major namebrand. Maybe not known to be the absolute best or anything (well, except their new Neo boards, those have a good reputation) but, definitely well known. Part of the cost of that board was the overhead costs of advertising and that sort of thing. Fact of life I'm afraid. Subtract that overhead and it's cheaper than your other board most likely.

msi could have easily made the voltage range wider but has chosen not to.

Again, elcheapo absolute lowest end of the type board. In other words, don't expect the best from something made to be the worst of it's type. Now, if the platinum has this same problem, THEN you have a right to be annoyed at that.

yup, my delta-l has multiplier 13x, sorta weird

So does mine. Actually tried using it? If I set 13x, I get something along the lines of 5. However, I note that you did NOT say that you have 15x. Remember, the 2600+ runs at 15x133. Again back to the only point I was truly trying to make. It's dependant on the board, so pick carefully if you want more out of it. I'm not saying go buy the most expensive thing out there, I'm just saying actually look at some reviews and opinions instead of buying anything compatible.

 

[heero884]

Again, elcheapo absolute lowest end of the type board. In other words, don't expect the best from something made to be the worst of it's type. Now, if the platinum has this same problem, THEN you have a right to be annoyed at that.

im not annoyed that i didnt pay the premium to have a "high end type" board, im just a tiny bit annoyed that msi decided to cripple this model as much as it did when other value boards from other companies are able to put features in their boards that msi chose to left out. i know msi did this to protect sales of their "platinum" board but im just saying, for the price of the delta-L board, there are better alternatives and if i knew how crippled this board was i would not have bought it from my friend who said that it is a excellent board.

So does mine. Actually tried using it? If I set 13x, I get something along the lines of 5.

i just tried it out and it acts like a 5x