ATI a takeover target?

[SanchoMB]

Microsoft Windows is only as popular as it is today because it really doesn't have any competition. Linux isn't user friendly enough nor does it have the backing to attack Microsoft head on. Apple does. Windows is plagued with issues today such as rampant viruses, spyware, trojans, everything you can think of. If you dont have anti-virus programs and firewalls and spyware managers installed from the moment the PC is connected to the internet you will be infected within a matter of minutes. If you have ever used MAC OSX then you would know it would hold a fair amount competition against Microsoft's Windows.

Actually, you will find that Apple has nowhere near enough money to throw at OSX to be any kind of serious competitor to Windows. Microsoft simply have too much money and to higher market share for Apple to even think about trying to push OSX into the mainstream. The only way OSX would get a higher share of the market is if they somehow managed to persuade Dell or Parckard bell or someone big to install their operating system over Windows, which we all know will not happen.

As for ATI, well i found it funny when i read these first few pages. Just take a step back and look at yourselves for a minuite and realise that its all bollocks. ATI arent going under like 3dfx, they still have plenty of money, and brainpower in that company to make a good chip and thats what they'll do. They've done it before and i have all confidence in them. Frankly, i cant see a takeover happening, but if it does happen i think TI would probably take it over any of the other so called 'competitors'. I dont think intel would take it and definatly AMD cant take it. We'll wait and see.

OH and i have a feeling that those share prices are going to rise quite considerably as the speculation of their new card reaches fever pitch. Good on you

 

[chrisf6969]

Pipelines are completely different than rendering bit depth. All current ATI and nVidia cards can do 32bit rendering. The pipelines are contained in silicon, and adding more means more transistors to cram into the core.

24fp and 32fp are different than 32bit.

I think 24fp = 96bit precision
and 32fp = 128bit precision (right?)

Anyway, the workload to change from 24fp to 32fp is exponential. And thats why the FX sucked compared to ATI back in the FX vs 9800 days. Nvidia had to do a lot more work than ATI with the exponentially higher workload.

Last gen (6800 vs X800) Nvidia was even with ATI, with ATI cutting A LOT of corners with very efficient optimizations. Like using only 24fp (instead of 32), some smart filter and AA algorithms which only applied those effects to areas that need them, etc... (thats why ATI's AA is more efficient - less of a hit)

Anyway, now that ATI is going to be doing the same amount of work (assuming 32fp) they would presumably have a much harder time keeping up. Since when they were only doing 24fp and using much higher clocks with X800 series they were basically even with the 6800's.

(edit for ATI !!!!!!s, yes X850XT was generally the fastest card, depending on app, but still the 2 cards of this generation were basically even)

 

[Unknown-One]

...mabye S3 if they get there heads outta the gutter

Yea, how is S3 doing? The only thing I can find from them is this
https://s3gstore.s3graphics.com/
And that actualy looks like a decent card!
...Especaly for only $150

 

[Brent_Justice]

24fp and 32fp are different than 32bit.

I think 24fp = 96bit precision
and 32fp = 128bit precision (right?)

Anyway, the workload to change from 24fp to 32fp is exponential. And thats why the FX sucked compared to ATI back in the FX vs 9800 days. Nvidia had to do a lot more work than ATI with the exponentially higher workload.

Last gen (6800 vs X800) Nvidia was even with ATI, with ATI cutting A LOT of corners with very efficient optimizations. Like using only 24fp (instead of 32), some smart filter and AA algorithms which only applied those effects to areas that need them, etc... (thats why ATI's AA is more efficient - less of a hit)

Anyway, now that ATI is going to be doing the same amount of work (assuming 32fp) they would presumably have a much harder time keeping up. Since when they were only doing 24fp and using much higher clocks with X800 series they were basically even with the 6800's.

(edit for ATI !!!!!!s, yes X850XT was generally the fastest card, depending on app, but still the 2 cards of this generation were basically even)

ATI already does FP32 internally, it's just they can only output at FP24 on the pixel pipelines

but all calculations are already done internally at FP32

anyway's, i wasn't talking about the precision in my previous post

 

[DejaWiz]

24fp and 32fp are different than 32bit.

I think 24fp = 96bit precision
and 32fp = 128bit precision (right?)

Anyway, the workload to change from 24fp to 32fp is exponential. And thats why the FX sucked compared to ATI back in the FX vs 9800 days. Nvidia had to do a lot more work than ATI with the exponentially higher workload.

Last gen (6800 vs X800) Nvidia was even with ATI, with ATI cutting A LOT of corners with very efficient optimizations. Like using only 24fp (instead of 32), some smart filter and AA algorithms which only applied those effects to areas that need them, etc... (thats why ATI's AA is more efficient - less of a hit)

Anyway, now that ATI is going to be doing the same amount of work (assuming 32fp) they would presumably have a much harder time keeping up. Since when they were only doing 24fp and using much higher clocks with X800 series they were basically even with the 6800's.

(edit for ATI !!!!!!s, yes X850XT was generally the fastest card, depending on app, but still the 2 cards of this generation were basically even)

From the sound of Sly's post, I thought maybe there was some confusion between 32 pipelines and 32bit... Thanks for the in-depth explanation regarding 24/32fp.

 

[Dew]

This would burn IBM's ass. The just lost Apple but are thinking, hey at least we got all 3 consoles......

[ibm voice] what do you mean the Nintendo and Xbox2 now say Intel inside? Bastards! [/ibm voice]

IBM doesn't care about Apple. They are at best 1-2% of their PPC market.

 

[Malogato]

stupid comment. You say that like a good thing

YEAH let's have NO competition in any shape. Then they can go back to not being that innovative on there video cards again( a la creative labs anyone)

If anything it would be better for an other company that simply wants to own then be more aggressive

Doubt any of this will happen though.

Creative never made actual video card gpus any more than sapphire or bfg does.

Creative video cards ALWAYS featured some "other companies" gpu.. wether it be a #9 part, a WESTERN DIGITAL video chip (yes, western digital used to make video cards), an s3 part, a 3dfx part, ati, nvidia, whoever. - They are a rebadger. Always have been [in the video field, anyhow]

 

[BigDaddy85]

Yea, how is S3 doing? The only thing I can find from them is this
https://s3gstore.s3graphics.com/
And that actualy looks like a decent card!
...Especaly for only $150

( >.<") ...

 

[Netrat33]

Creative never made actual video card gpus any more than sapphire or bfg does.

Creative video cards ALWAYS featured some "other companies" gpu.. wether it be a #9 part, a WESTERN DIGITAL video chip (yes, western digital used to make video cards), an s3 part, a 3dfx part, ati, nvidia, whoever. - They are a rebadger. Always have been [in the video field, anyhow]

I know that. I was pointing out how creative labs doesn't really have competion in the sound card department. You wouldn't want the video card arena to be as "baren"

 

[Sly]

Actually incorrect, the main reason was because Nvidia was fucking around with contract agreements on the origonal Xbox. ATI is still going to rake in a very nice profit, if you dont think so, then you're in denial.

I didn't quite get that. Would you mind elaborating?

Here's how i understood it, i'm not a business major so correct me if i'm wrong

As a business company, i would have expected Microsoft to make decisions that would minimize costs. That means aggressive pricing for each component. For a specific component (like the graphics module), reduction in cost per unit is deducted from the suppliers profit (ATI), this is usually done by buying in bulk and reducing the cost per unit.

Less profit for ATI = Less XBOX360 production cost

This time, MS has probably deemed that production cost will go lower if they buy the design itself, paying ATI up front and manufacturing the chips themselves. Could there be any other reason MS did that rather than have ATI supply the chips?

BTW, how was Microsofts deal with ATI anyway? Do they still pay ATI per unit made? If they still do, then what was the purpose of buying the design for their own manufacture in the first place if they're gonna pay ATI anyway? Considering the cost of initial manufacture, and adding the design royalties they paid at the start, and then further adding the per unit royalties. They could wind up spending more than if they had simply ordered from ATI in bulk.

 

[gordon151]

BTW, how was Microsofts deal with ATI anyway? Do they still pay ATI per unit made? If they still do, then what was the purpose of buying the design for their own manufacture in the first place if they're gonna pay ATI anyway? Considering the cost of initial manufacture, and adding the design royalties they paid at the start, and then further adding the per unit royalties. They could wind up spending more than if they had simply ordered from ATI in bulk.

They are buying the rights to use and manufacture the design. ATI still owns the IP and thus Microsoft has to pay them a royalty for each xbox360 that will ever be sold. The problem Microsoft had with the nVidia deal was that they agreed upon a set price for each xbox sold, but unfortunately for them, even though as time passed it became cheaper for nvidia to produce the xbox chips, the price that microsoft paid remained constant. This way, they pay a constant rate, but since they're manufacturing the chip they have an easier

They will pay ATI for ever unit made because they are buying the rights from ATI to use and manufacture their designs. The Microsoft/nVidia deal was problematic for both as it seemed initially, nVidia was absorbing most of the cost of producing the designs while recieving a set payout from Microsoft per unit. As time went on, the costs of production subsided for nVidia, but since Microsoft was stuck on a set payment and couldnt benefit from the reduced manufacturing costs as time went on.

Supposedly this new deal is better for both ATI and Microsoft, as Microsoft has better control over the costs and producing the chips while ATI is relieved of any other responsibilities beyond tweaks to the design as time goes on and can basically just reel in a paycheck from that while focusing on other ventures.

 

[Terra]

Dosn't NVIDIA also get a kickback from every X360 sold?
Something to do with backwards compability?

Terra...

 

[ilkhan]

Dosn't NVIDIA also get a kickback from every X360 sold?
Something to do with backwards compability?

Terra...

Was mentioned earlier.

I didn't quite get that. Would you mind elaborating? ...They could wind up spending more than if they had simply ordered from ATI in bulk.

I would guess that microsft can produce each chip cheaper than ATi could, which wouldn't hurt ATi at all. They bring in less money, but also spend a lot less money. And this would benefit MSFT as well.

But AFAIK MSFT is a software company, they dont have any chip production at all. Of course, if they bought the design and are farming production out it would eliminate the middleman (ATi), which still wouldn't hurt ATi at all.

 

[retardedchicken]

I personally hope Texas Instruments will buy ATi if anybody has to. They know how to make profits, innovate, and would definately make the most of ATi's resourses. Intel would probably cannibalize them.

Imagine the possibilites!

NEW! The Texas Instruments TI-X850, capable of solving calculus problems and rendering a handheld version of Halflife2 at a constant 80FPS!

 

[Majin]

I have 1k just sitting here waiting to be used I think its a good time to buy a part of ATI!

Then I will go down the street to the HQ and storm in, sit down at the CEO's desk and LOL as I look over my new company!

 

[Unknown-One]

( >.<") ...

I'm guessing that means its not as good as it looks from the limteded specs posted on S3's site?

 

[Marcdaddy]

This whole thread is about as premature as i was when i watching one of my dads dirty movies when i was 13 years old, I would love to go out and buy 2 7800GTXs right now, But not am i only waiting to see the 520 im waiting to see if Nvidia is gonna trump ATI with a Ultra. I think they will, there is too much time for Nvidia to be ready to counter ATI. Wait for the Numbers and hopefully we will find out soon.

 

[Sly]

I would guess that microsft can produce each chip cheaper than ATi could, which wouldn't hurt ATi at all. They bring in less money, but also spend a lot less money. And this would benefit MSFT as well.

I honestly don't see how. TSMC's the one making them, the same one ATI would order from if it was through them. I'd sumise that ATI might even be able to get them cheaper since they're a hardware based company to begin with (e.g. regular customers get special deals).

 

[PRIME1]

This whole thread is about as premature as i was when i watching one of my dads dirty movies when i was 13 years old,.

No one wants to know what you did last week

Because of the dip in ATI stock it could make them vulnerable to a take over. That is if anyone actually wants them. Not saying they are a bad company, it's just that they would have to fit in somewhere to a company that has the cash to buy them. A drop in stock price could open any company to a take over, however I'm not sure there are any major companies out there shopping for a GPU shop.

To sum up: Is ATI in danger of a take over.... YES. Will it happen.....DOUBTFUL. The only thing that my change this is if the R520 fails and ATI stock takes a major dive, then some company might scoop them up as a bargain. Otherwise, it's business as usual.

 

[Shmuckety]

Imagine the possibilites!

NEW! The Texas Instruments TI-X850, capable of solving calculus problems and rendering a handheld version of Halflife2 at a constant 80FPS!

I want a TI-X850 Graphics Calculator. Will it still only use 4 AA batteries? Will it be in color???

I can graph the hell out of some matrixes. Yeah!!!

 

[Russ]

Yea, how is S3 doing? The only thing I can find from them is this
https://s3gstore.s3graphics.com/
And that actualy looks like a decent card!
...Especaly for only $150

anyone got the specs on this card?

-----

As long as nVidia, AMD, or Intel don't take over ATi, if it does get taken over I wouldn't see that much changing in the market climate. nVidia might have to work harder b/c ATi would have more of a cash base to dev better cards (or prices would drop), but that's only good for us, the consumers.

 

[SatinSpiral]

Doesn't anyone remember that ATI has had stock valuations way lower than this in the post-R300 era of the company? Shares went under $6 a couple years ago and ATI was a major graphics player then as well. Nobody took over the company then either.

edit: I was too young to buy stock then, but my virtual stock exchange purchase at that price netted me like a 400% gain in about two years. I hate have a brain but no money

edit edit: checked my transaction history. bought stock at $4.44 on 2/4/2003. if it was gonna get taken over it would have been then.

 

[Sly]

Doesn't anyone remember that ATI has had stock valuations way lower than this in the post-R300 era of the company? Shares went under $6 a couple years ago and ATI was a major graphics player then as well. Nobody took over the company then either.

edit: I was too young to buy stock then, but my virtual stock exchange purchase at that price netted me like a 400% gain in about two years. I hate have a brain but no money

edit edit: checked my transaction history. bought stock at $4.44 on 2/4/2003. if it was gonna get taken over it would have been then.

What does ATI have back then? Just the video card right?

Right now, with a new motherboard in the works, crossfire, new architectures(R5xx), Microsoft Contracts, plenty of long term profit potential there. If they were gonna get bought now, they get all those The fact that a lot of people here wants to buy stocks means that there's still a lot of potential, other corporations are probably thinking the same so a takeover can't be ruled out just yet

Things are bleak right now and they've got everything tied to the R5xx. But if they get through this and the R5xx takes off, so will everything else. I wish i had money

 

[SatinSpiral]

What does ATI have back then? Just the video card right?

Right now, with a new motherboard in the works, crossfire, new architectures(R5xx), Microsoft Contracts, plenty of long term profit potential there. If they were gonna get bought now, they get all those The fact that a lot of people here wants to buy stocks means that there's still a lot of potential, other corporations are probably thinking the same so a takeover can't be ruled out just yet

Things are bleak right now and they've got everything tied to the R5xx. But if they get through this and the R5xx takes off, so will everything else. I wish i had money

Umm, sorry but, no. They had more than vidcards; this was only two years ago. They had a good IGP platform, major OEM business, HDTV chips, mobile display chips powering everything from cell phones to PDA's, and were King of the Performance hill, they were clobbering the FX series left and right. The only thing defferent is the M$ contract, and X-Fire, neither of which are big enough to incite a takeover IMHO.

edit: the future of ATI was very bright indeed in Feb. 2003. They were seriously undervalued in the Market. Whoops i forgot to include gamecube sales.

 

[jon_k]

Here is a summary of ATI's business:

chipsets: no one really uses ATI chipsets (ie losing $)
video cards: used to be #1 but losing market share ever since NV40 (ie losing $)
crossfire: incredibly few people will buy this. Most who whould have have already gone SLi. (ie losing $)
mobile products: ATI is still in the lead for laptop GPUs, but is about to loseing it real quick to nV (ie gain $)
game consoles: the one thing that can save ATI. If the XBOX does well, this will keep them alive (ie. gain $)

so basically it all comes down to how well the XBOX does. If the XBOX360 dosen't break some records with sales, ATI is screwed.

 

[robberbaron]

Here is a summary of ATI's business:

chipsets: no one really uses ATI chipsets (ie losing $)
video cards: used to be #1 but losing market share ever since NV40 (ie losing $)
crossfire: incredibly few people will buy this. Most who whould have have already gone SLi. (ie losing $)
mobile products: ATI is still in the lead for laptop GPUs, but is about to loseing it real quick to nV (ie gain $)
game consoles: the one thing that can save ATI. If the XBOX does well, this will keep them alive (ie. gain $)

so basically it all comes down to how well the XBOX does. If the XBOX360 dosen't break some records with sales, ATI is screwed.

You forgot OEM's which make up the bulk of ATi business and is keeping them healthy still.

 

[SatinSpiral]

You forgot OEM's which make up the bulk of ATi business and is keeping them healthy still.

he also forgot HDTV and mobile display chips which are both huge growth markets

 

[FanATIc]

Here is a summary of ATI's business:

chipsets: no one really uses ATI chipsets (ie losing $)
video cards: used to be #1 but losing market share ever since NV40 (ie losing $)
crossfire: incredibly few people will buy this. Most who whould have have already gone SLi. (ie losing $)
mobile products: ATI is still in the lead for laptop GPUs, but is about to loseing it real quick to nV (ie gain $)
game consoles: the one thing that can save ATI. If the XBOX does well, this will keep them alive (ie. gain $)

so basically it all comes down to how well the XBOX does. If the XBOX360 dosen't break some records with sales, ATI is screwed.

thats a nice brainless troll

go play the lotto if you can predict the future and spare us your bullshit.

 

[[RIP]Zeus]

thats a nice brainless troll

go play the lotto if you can predict the future and spare us your bullshit.

You should take your own adivce...your not inoccent here either.

 

[robberbaron]

You should take your own adivce...your not inoccent here either.

Making FanATIc eat his own words doesn't accomplish much. I PM'd him a while back about a lie he made and he never replied

Guess he doesn't care about backing his bullshit up.

 

[[RIP]Zeus]

Making FanATIc eat his own words doesn't accomplish much. I PM'd him a while back about a lie he made and he never replied

Guess he doesn't care about backing his bullshit up.

I know it may not accomplish much.. But damn it makes me feel better

 

[{NG}Fidel]

What about Jon K's post? are you telling me you agree with it? Dont make me laugh man?
I agree that Fanatic has posted various biased and foolish statements in the past but that does not take away from Jon K's post.

 

[[RIP]Zeus]

What about Jon K's post? are you telling me you agree with it? Dont make me laugh man?
I agree that Fanatic has posted various biased and foolish statements in the past but that does not take away from Jon K's post.

i to some degree, do agree with that. Not all of it. but some of it.

also you gotta take it with a grain of salt to.

 

[purefun65]

people keep forgetting if this card doesn't get produced real soon its gonna hold up the gaming console! uhoh

 

[J Macker]

I can only imagine how much profit Intel would be making if they got ahold of ATI as well after just sealing the deal with Intel CPU's in Apple machines. The Apple deal was huge for Intel already and its looking to be huge the rest of us as well because with Intel CPU's in Apple systems now there will very likely be a push by Apple to release a PC version of OSX to compete against Microsoft and Windows. Apple could steal away a huge market share in the OS department from Microsoft easily and could give Longhorn a run for its money.

Gates owns about 1/2 of Apple's stock.

 

[FanATIc]

You should take your own adivce...your not inoccent here either.

im sorry, what have i said recently that deemed you necissary to make a comment? Have a weed stuck in your ass out of reach perhaps?

Making FanATIc eat his own words doesn't accomplish much. I PM'd him a while back about a lie he made and he never replied

Guess he doesn't care about backing his bullshit up.

i dont get pm's. nor do i care what ever it was that you have now recalled since it effected you so much you put it in memory.

 

[[RIP]Zeus]

im sorry, what have i said recently that deemed you necissary to make a comment? Have a weed stuck in your ass out of reach perhaps?

You really do amaze with your vile comments.

I am not the one who has lost there credibilty for lies and false facts.

 

[[RIP]Zeus]

You really do amaze with your vile comments.

I am not the one who has lost there credibilty for lies and false facts.

And btw lets back on topic. This has become a flame war between fanATIc and everyone else again

 

[robberbaron]

i dont get pm's. nor do i care what ever it was that you have now recalled since it effected you so much you put it in memory.

Meh. It was just in reply to what you said about the 7800GTX not being at MSRP, which it turned out that it WAS at MSRP. But when you're called on your lies, you just evade. Typical of a worthless troll.

 

[FanATIc]

Meh. It was just in reply to what you said about the 7800GTX not being at MSRP, which it turned out that it WAS at MSRP. But when you're called on your lies, you just evade. Typical of a worthless troll.

Actaully i was basing that statement off the fact that the internal Nvidia price for the card to open at was infact 649.00, this was reverberated at the cards Launch party, then dropped to for final selling launch price 599. Hardspell, the first site to break NDA if you'll remember, was in all chinease, were a few posts on these forums about it, also had this price listed and i think the Inq did a write up about price dropping of the gtx also stating it had the internal MSRP of 649. Feel better?