AMD's Morphological Anti-Aliasing

[Unknown-One]

MLAA is done to the screen as a whole. It cannot, by the way of it's current implantation, apply itself selectively.

Not entirely true. It would take very little modification to allow the use of an alpha mask for this post-processing filter.

Since you can't communicate with the game directly, you would need a pre-made alpha mask for each game HUD. Such alpha masks could be supplied along with Catalyst App Profile updates (or better yet, allow the driver to load user-made ones).

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

games with deferred rendering in DX9 mode that cannot support normal AA like the Diesel engine based games (Lead & Gold, Bionic Commando, Terminator Salvation, Wanted: Weapons of Fate) and other games like GTA 4, Mafia 2 can benefit from MLAA which might be the only way to have AA in those games (if forcing it from CCC or NV CP didn’t work).

and for other games it would be a way to have some kind of an alternative AA without losing performance but users with “better” video cards won’t care about it and would rather to use the real AA.

now if more games with deferred rendering in DX9 mode keep coming in the future then I hope Nvidia would come up with a similar solution because my die hard AMD fanboy steam friend who told me what I just wrote is KILLING ME with this.

Edit: stolen from here

Nice list! Here are GTA4:









Taken from here

This is not an "end all" AA and doesn't even look good in all games. For some games it looks amazing though and those are the games I would normally want to use SSAA, but can't justify the huge performance hit with SSAA.

I'd dare to say that several games I've tested this with, looks much better then using regular AA and even the blurring of the text is not enough that I would consider it a game breaker (even in ME2, which have lots of text). Its a small price to pay for the improved PQ.

 

[raveux]

Does GTA normally look that blurry towards the distance, or is that MLAA?

 

[Mr. K6]

Nice list! Here are GTA4:

Those shots look great! What an improvement over what GTA 4 was. I'll have to pick up the expansion packs on the next sale and give this game another whirl.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

Does GTA normally look that blurry towards the distance, or is that MLAA?

Distance is draw distance and AF, not MLAA. MLAA gets applied to the whole picture and not especially for distance.

Don't play GTA, so I cannot describe the effect ingame for you more then you can see from the pictures.

Pictures are jpeg btw, so expect some compression artifacts.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

Those shots look great! What an improvement over what GTA 4 was. I'll have to pick up the expansion packs on the next sale and give this game another whirl.

LOL! I considered picking up that game myself after seeing those shots.

 

[Matrices]

GTA 4 is so hideous on the consoles, not even acceptable on the PCs...until now, it seems. Though that looks like a shitload of other mods already installed in those screens, too.

As for ME2, why would you need MLAA for that? On Nvidia hardware you can use Nvidia Inspector to enter an AA compatibility bit from UT3 that works pretty well.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

GTA 4 is so hideous on the consoles, not even acceptable on the PCs...until now, it seems. Though that looks like a shitload of other mods already installed in those screens, too.

As for ME2, why would you need MLAA for that? On Nvidia hardware you can use Nvidia Inspector to enter an AA compatibility bit from UT3 that works pretty well.

ME2 looks good with MLAA, so why not use it?

Did you do the mobility driver hack that I linked earlier? Then you can see for yourself if you have ME2!

 

[SicKlown42012]

As for ME2, why would you need MLAA for that? On Nvidia hardware you can use Nvidia Inspector to enter an AA compatibility bit from UT3 that works pretty well.

Forcing MSAA in Mass Effect 2 has a relatively large performance penalty, compared to MLAA. With forcing MSAA, you'd also have to enable the option for Adaptive AA to match what MLAA does(working on transparent textures), and that is an even bigger performance hit.

 

[Spare-Flair]

GTA IV already had antialiasing a ton of graphical improvements via ENBseries. The problem is that that worked through supersampling and thus you needed a supercomputer to run it at proper speed.

Also, the ENB developer got pissed off at Rockstar for patching the game and changing the shader code so he doesn't develop for the latest versions.

Screenshots:
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1035899025&postcount=2

 

[Matrices]

ME2 looks good with MLAA, so why not use it?

Did you do the mobility driver hack that I linked earlier? Then you can see for yourself if you have ME2!

It looks like a bit of work, so I don't really want to mess with my laptop. For one thing, I find ATI's software weird (you can't set specific settings to specific games) so I use some other software to make it more Nvidia-like, and I don't want to give that up. And even with no AA, Dead Space is amazing across three monitors.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

It looks like a bit of work, so I don't really want to mess with my laptop. For one thing, I find ATI's software weird (you can't set specific settings to specific games) so I use some other software to make it more Nvidia-like, and I don't want to give that up. And even with no AA, Dead Space is amazing across three monitors.

You can set specific settings to specific games, with their profile system, but I prefer Nvidia's method there without derailing the thread too much about why. If you like Nvidia's system well, then I would suggest you use RadeonPRO for ATI (very much like nHancer):
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=322031

 

[shansoft]

GTA 4 is so hideous on the consoles, not even acceptable on the PCs...until now, it seems. Though that looks like a shitload of other mods already installed in those screens, too.

As for ME2, why would you need MLAA for that? On Nvidia hardware you can use Nvidia Inspector to enter an AA compatibility bit from UT3 that works pretty well.

in ME2, even with TrSSAA, the alias edge still very noticeable, which is terrible....
(nVidia's AA still horrible in general, even though it have better performance, but I prefer better IQ over performance)
unlike ATI's SSAA completely removed it..

 

[Einhanderkiller]

Anybody else getting horrible looking text in Source games?

Other games like Bad Company 2, Fallout: New Vegas, and Crysis Warhead are fine, but the MLAA makes text in Source games barely legible.

EDIT:
Heh. MLAA is applied to YouTube videos when you fullscreen them.

 

[shansoft]

There is a project for hacked mobility drivers and MLAA here:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=331169

tried, dont work on my 5650...

 

[biggles]

Crazy question, but could this be modified to work for 4000 series cards as well?

 

[SicKlown42012]

Crazy question, but could this be modified to work for 4000 series cards as well?

We don't know yet. It's using DirectCompute, but no one's sure if it DC 11(5800/6800 only) or DC 10/10.1 which would work on the 48xx cards. My personal guess is that it's not coming to 48xx cards.

 

[sirmonkey1985]

We don't know yet. It's using DirectCompute, but no one's sure if it DC 11(5800/6800 only) or DC 10/10.1 which would work on the 48xx cards. My personal guess is that it's not coming to 48xx cards.

its directcompute 5(marketing name), the 4k series has directcompute 4.1 so i dont think it would work. and if it did it might not get you the same performance you would with DC 5.

 

[refraxion]

MLAA is cool and all but I felt some input lag while playing SC2 with it on..

 

[limitedaccess]

MLAA is cool and all but I felt some input lag while playing SC2 with it on..

This is actually a good point. "Post processing" tends to add input lag, I wonder if tests involving morphological aa should look at this.

 

[refraxion]

This is actually a good point. "Post processing" tends to add input lag, I wonder if tests involving morphological aa should look at this.

Yeah I was amazed and everything at first when I used it .. then I was like - HOLY EF the scrolling is definitely a bit off, as well as everything else.. it just felt "off" after I had it on. I'm gonna keep it off for games like SC/FPS.. for games that are offline maybe.

 

[samurai1999]

This does show the limits of after-the-event post-processing
- it tends to blur area of high detail, for good or for bad.

It's not Anti-Aliasing, because the Aliasing has already occurred, so it's a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted....

Once detail has been aliased it's too late to get it back.

So what AMD calls MLAA, is more correctly called Adaptive Low-Pass Filtering, (ALPF)
- but I guess that doesn't sound as sexy

 

[nakedhand]

MLAA is cool and all but I felt some input lag while playing SC2 with it on..

This would be a huge turn off for me, I cant stand input lag. I hope this will vary from game to game and isnt a general issue. I also hope that Kyle will be testing with this perspective in mind in the up and coming MLAA article. This needs to be illuminated.

 

[Unknown-One]

MLAA is cool and all but I felt some input lag while playing SC2 with it on..

I noticed some input lag and some stuttering with it active in Halo, so you're not alone.

Hopefully that's the reason it's currently disabled by default, and they're working on fixing it...

 

[fattypants]

This does show the limits of after-the-event post-processing
- it tends to blur area of high detail, for good or for bad.

It's not Anti-Aliasing, because the Aliasing has already occurred, so it's a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted....

Once detail has been aliased it's too late to get it back.

So what AMD calls MLAA, is more correctly called Adaptive Low-Pass Filtering, (ALPF)
- but I guess that doesn't sound as sexy

Nitpick all you want about nomenclature minutiae, but it looks pretty good in a lot of games. Just tried it with Gothic 4 today and it sure looks a lot better than the AA that the game supports (nothing). It looks a lot better than what GTA IV supports (nothing). While it's not ideal, it comes virtually for free and does a good enough job in most cases, especially the ones that don't support AA at all.

 

[Mr. K6]

Nitpick all you want about nomenclature minutiae, but it looks pretty good in a lot of games. Just tried it with Risen today and it sure looks a lot better than the AA that the game supports (nothing). It looks a lot better than what GTA IV supports (nothing). While it's not ideal, it comes virtually for free and does a good enough job in most cases, especially the ones that don't support AA at all.

A-frickin'-men. I think AMD deserves a major high-five for getting this out the door. It's a great feature that will be a great stop-gap for many games that previously had no options (most of the deferred-rendering type). However, I think this high-lights even more how much they need to work on CCC now to support per-application profiles.

 

[refraxion]

I noticed some input lag and some stuttering with it active in Halo, so you're not alone.

Hopefully that's the reason it's currently disabled by default, and they're working on fixing it...

Ah good! I thought it was just me and I was just thinking things.. but it definitely felt off when I was playing games.. it sure as hell looked pretty though...

I hope Kyle will be doing some tests on these as well for the article.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

This does show the limits of after-the-event post-processing
- it tends to blur area of high detail, for good or for bad.

It's not Anti-Aliasing, because the Aliasing has already occurred, so it's a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted....

Once detail has been aliased it's too late to get it back.

So what AMD calls MLAA, is more correctly called Adaptive Low-Pass Filtering, (ALPF)
- but I guess that doesn't sound as sexy

Lol at Nvidia user.

Its not like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, but like putting the icing on the cake before it leaves the bakery. The anti-aliasing occurs before its displayed.

Its MLAA, though you want another name for it. Similar is used on PS3 as well (they also call it MLAA):

It's a technique initially put forward by Intel, but best described with examples in this blog post which shows the real potential of the technique, and how it compares with the Brutal Legend method of edge-blurring. There is no real competition here. The so-called morphological anti-aliasing (or MLAA) seen in The Saboteur is leaps and bounds ahead of anything we've seen so far when it works in optimum conditions.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-saboteur-aa-blog-entry

 

[defaultluser]

Lol at Nvidia user.

Right. Any person who criticizes a technology with problems is automatically an Nvidiot shill

As a former HD 4850 owner, I can say that I think this is a good idea, because my one unending issue with my 4850 card was always AA support. But at the same time, this method is NOT without it's faults, so don't just gloss over them like an idiot.

Its not like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, but like putting the icing on the cake before it leaves the bakery. The anti-aliasing occurs before its displayed.

This is unlike any other AA method because you discard the geometry, depth and transparency information before you attempt to remove the edges. This means you have to make a "best guess" about what is a polygon edge, what is a texture and what is a shader effect, and in the end you lose a lot of fine detail along with the edges.

samurai1999 is absolutely right about calling this Adaptive Low-Pass Filtering, because that's exactly what the algorithm does to a flat image. Let me put this in a way you may better understand:

Traditional MSAA plus Transparency AA is equivalent to lossless audio compression (e.g. FLAC). It may not be the best at removing all edges, and the processing may be expensive, but the final product is clear and sharp compared to the original.

MLAA is very much like lossy mp3 - you lose detail across the image, but the goal is to make something that looks transparent to the original, minus the edges. The only problem is, much like early mp3 encoders, this early attempt produces poor results that blur the entire image. So, while it has the potential to be a market leader, MLAA needs to endure the equivalent of the LAME development effort before it will produce acceptable results and gain mind share.

MLAA has potential, but needs improvement. Until that point, it's just an Adaptive Low-Pass Filter with a fancy brand name.

 

[TheBlueChanell]

I feel input lag with SSAA even if I have 60+ FPS. I've noticed this for years now and It's a shame cause it looks nice but feels like shit.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

Right. Any person who criticizes a technology with problems is automatically an Nvidiot shill

MLAA has potential, but needs improvement. Until that point, it's just an Adaptive Low-Pass Filter with a fancy brand name.

His post were equalent to if I were to call Nvida's FS SSAA for "Full of Shit SSAA". Brought nothing to the discussion or the thread. Basically just crapping on the name and the thread. Typical shill damage control.

The similar methods on PS3 and from Intel is called MLAA, so its not just a fancy brand name.

AMD have not explained yet how the filtering works, when it comes to algorithm, so its just about the basics on how its applied and when. Still, here is AMD's method from 1999 of MLAA (DAEAA) if you are spesifically interested in the methology itself. I'm more for the results in real world gaming:
http://developer.amd.com/gpu_assets/AA-HPG09.pdf

This is not a thread about MLAA semantics or what PR word to put on it. I made this thread, because I was intrigued by the new feature and wanted to see what it can do for me and other gamers. Make a new thread if you disagree about the wordings.
Sometimes its nice to discuss the good and bads of a new feature without someone trying to take a piss on the name of it.

Edit: Colourless @ beyond3d seems to have a particular interest in FSAA methology and have created his own D3D FSAA viewer. He might be more interested in why AMD should choose another name for it:

I used to be a non believer. I didn't think any post process method would be very good at producing reasonably FSAA. That has changed now. The MLAA works brilliantly well in the games I've tried it in. For better or worse it will also mean that AMD wont have to issue driver updates to enable AA in games that aren't compatible with multisampling, cause people can fall back to MLAA. The process screwing around with text is a little annoying, but in the games I've played it hasn't been a game breaker.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1486280&postcount=77

 

[exlink]

Too much blurring for my tastes. Its nice in games that don't support AA but thats about it.

 

[Chameleoki]

I think is heaven sent for Eyefinity users. Free AA will come in very handy! I know right now regular 4x AA is still unplayable on some games at such a wide resolution, especially on 24".

 

[samurai1999]

Nitpick all you want about nomenclature minutiae, but it looks pretty good in a lot of games. Just tried it with Gothic 4 today and it sure looks a lot better than the AA that the game supports (nothing). It looks a lot better than what GTA IV supports (nothing). While it's not ideal, it comes virtually for free and does a good enough job in most cases, especially the ones that don't support AA at all.

Yes, it was kind of nit-picking
- but I was also trying to point out the limitations of a post-processing technique that is completely independent of the rendering data
- and also point out the difference between an actual AA technique (which tries to prevent Aliasing), and this process, which tries to cover-up Aliasing
- but if the results are better than no-AA (and at low computational cost), then that's a good thing.

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

Yes, it was kind of nit-picking
- but I was also trying to point out the limitations of a post-processing technique that is completely independent of the rendering data
- and also point out the difference between an actual AA technique (which tries to prevent Aliasing), and this process, which tries to cover-up Aliasing
- but if the results are better than no-AA (and at low computational cost), then that's a good thing.

It was beyond nitpicking. You tried to put a name spin on it.

I've tried MLAA out extensively now and seen it works way better then any MSAA level in some games, while in other games I prefer not to use it at all. This is an actual AA technique, a FSAA technique to be exact. Though done on another stage, it outputs an image that has AA applied to it, which is all that matters.

 

[samurai1999]

His post were equalent to if I were to call Nvida's FS SSAA for "Full of Shit SSAA". Brought nothing to the discussion or the thread. Basically just crapping on the name and the thread. Typical shill damage control.

I can see you bring an air of sophistication to the discussion

AMD have not explained yet how the filtering works, when it comes to algorithm, so its just about the basics on how its applied and when. Still, here is AMD's method from 1999 of MLAA (DAEAA) if you are spesifically interested in the methology itself. I'm more for the results in real world gaming:
http://developer.amd.com/gpu_assets/AA-HPG09.pdf

This paper (from 2009) describes a different technique that uses render-edge data to find edges
- and so, for example, wouldn't have the problem that MLAA has with finding false edges (e.g. on the HUD)

This is not a thread about MLAA semantics or what PR word to put on it. I made this thread, because I was intrigued by the new feature and wanted to see what it can do for me and other gamers. Make a new thread if you disagree about the wordings.
Sometimes its nice to discuss the good and bads of a new feature without someone trying to take a piss on the name of it.

I'm intriqued by it too, but, I'm just pointing that calling it MLAA may be misleading to some people

 

[Tamlin_WSGF]

I'm intriqued by it too, but, I'm just pointing that calling it MLAA may be misleading to some people

MLAA is what similar methods are called and what this is called as well. Making new names can be misleading to most gamers who don't give a crap about the name, but rather what it can do.

AMD calls it MLAA, it says MLAA in CCC and it applies a form of FSAA to the pictures. This is what matters. I've pointed to a thread on B3D, where a FSAA enthusiast is a better choice to discuss the namecalling of this.

This thread is about the function, not the name and what it can do in actual gaming. If you wish to talk about semantics, please make a thread of your own instead of derailing this one.

This thread is about AMD's Morphological Anti-Aliasing as said in the thread title.

 

[Stone Cold]

Jaggies are annoying, so maybe some blurring is worth it to get rid of them. But, morphological AA is nothing like 4xAA, if you can spare the frame-rate.

 

[samurai1999]

This thread is about the function, not the name and what it can do in actual gaming. If you wish to talk about semantics, please make a thread of your own instead of derailing this one.

This thread is about AMD's Morphological Anti-Aliasing as said in the thread title.

Hey, man, calm down!
- don't get too hung up on the name

Where's the Tamlin we all know & love telling us that the GF110 is really 2 x GF104?


(sorry,, wrong thread too!)

 

[samurai1999]

Doesn't Morphological Anti-Aliasing just blur the crap out of edges instead of making them sharp?

Yes - but not just the edges!