AMD's GPU '14 Product Showcase Webcast

cageymaru

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Let's see if AMD does it like TressFX and it interfaces with Nvidia's stuff first before we hang them by the toes upside down. :)
 

wonderfield

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It's not a dedicated co-processor. You can theoretically take PhysX and run it on AMD hardware (as a matter of fact, CPUs handle physics even better), but you can't take a low level API and run it on nVidia's hardware without nVidia's blessing, hard work, and engineers.
I'm not suggesting AMD try to offer MANTLE to NVIDIA. I'm suggesting that they took exactly the wrong approach to the problem: AMD, Intel and NVIDIA need to standardize on some sort of GPU "instruction set" such that someone else (Khronos, Microsoft, whatever) can produce an lower-level API around it. That's good for the industry. Proprietary graphics APIs are not.
 

mrmandude

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AMD has never been known to keep the features exclusive, but this is different.
They couldn't have made an "open" API like this if they were given a decade and an Apple-sized budget. It's got all to do with the architecture of the silicon and the specific quirks that it has that only the engineers who've worked on it (or the folks that make the drivers for it) can understand. AMD would literally have to be nVidia for this to benefit both companies equally.

I'm sure Nvidia will counter, just like when AMD shocked them with Eyefinity.

Nvidia will adapt and roll out their own low-level API. Then you'll be happy?
They can and I think they likely will, but it's going to take a lot more effort. AMD has the benefit of having implemented something like this in the next gen consoles, so persuading developers to just use it again (certain differences aside) is a lot easier than getting those same developers to use a completely different set of tools from a different hardware vendor.

AMD winning the consoles was never about the money, but about familiarity and unifying upstream. If you've ever wondered if AMD GPUs would get a natural boost from winning the consoles, the answer appears to be a big and emphatic "Yes."

More performance and more complex games than can run on cheaper PCs. Can't see the where the hate is coming from.
nVidia is known for strong developer ties. I really hope they do something like this as well so nobody gets left behind. Personally, I want AMD to release this to the open source community and stand firmly behind OpenGL. It's likely going to cost nVidia a lot of money and take a lot of time to pull off something to combat this, but I hope they do.
 

cageymaru

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Also if it is an extra feature that is exclusive for AMD that doesn't change the way the game plays, looks or feels on Nvidia hardware compared to AMD hardware then it's fine. If it in any way hinders Nvidia then I'll grab my pitchfork also. Seems like the games are going to have traditional method of DX and OpenGL pipelines regardless.
 

robble

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Wait a minute.. Kyle is here in Hawaii? Damn guy, I need to buy you a beer now because I'll probably never make it to Dallas.
 

Reality

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elios the console versions are already guaranteed AMD, this is just a bonus to PC gamers who want to see their AMD cards pushed to their potential rather than absorbing a shitty port job

it doesn't really benefit nvidia owners though
 

Elios

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elios the console versions are already guaranteed AMD, this is just a bonus to PC gamers who want to see their AMD cards pushed to their potential rather than absorbing a shitty port job

it doesn't really benefit nvidia owners though
or they could just pay the devs to not make a Direct 3D ver...
you know what the end game of that looks like

500 buck low end video cards thats what
 

mrmandude

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or they could just pay the devs to not make a Direct 3D ver...
you know what the end game of that looks like

500 buck low end video cards thats what
Your nVidia GPU isn't going to run worse, it's just that AMD's GPUs would run better.

Like I noted above, I hope nVidia does something like this as well because it would benefit all of us.
 

robble

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i thought we got past this paper release bullshit
fuck AMD even if is faster and cheaper i wont by it now
Of course you won't buy it now. It isn't available yet. I bet you're are first in line on release day. :D
 

Reality

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itll be interesting to see if mantle can work alongside another API. really you need to ask yourself what was AMDs specific motive behind this
 

mrmandude

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I'm not suggesting AMD try to offer MANTLE to NVIDIA. I'm suggesting that they took exactly the wrong approach to the problem: AMD, Intel and NVIDIA need to standardize on some sort of GPU "instruction set" such that someone else (Khronos, Microsoft, whatever) can produce an lower-level API around it. That's good for the industry. Proprietary graphics APIs are not.
That's the difference between a low level and high level API. You can't have a low level API that targets diverse hardware because then you haven't built a lower level API.

AMD and nVidia would have to have architecture that's incredibly similar for that to work, and that's just not going to happen - there is no "ISA" low level API because that, too, wouldn't be a low level API. It's sort of like taking AMD and Intel CPUs and using the same ISA (higher level API) but coding your software in such a way that the L3$ latency would be much more important. As a result, AMD's processors would stink at that workload whereas Intel's chips would perform better despite using the same "ISA."
 

Elios

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Your nVidia GPU isn't going to run worse, it's just that AMD's GPUs would run better.

Like I noted above, I hope nVidia does something like this as well because it would benefit all of us.
no its your NV gpus wont run at all
 

mrmandude

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Your DX11//OpenGL APIs will work just fine, it's just that Radeon GCN-derived GPUs would get a boost from the lower level API if it's utilized.

nVidia really screwed the pooch big time. If this takes off, they're going to have a mountain to climb to reach AMD levels of performance on certain titles.
 

Elios

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AMD needs to be crucified for even trying this
if you let them get away with this you will not like where it ends
 

HFBallad

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Considering that 280 is $299... a $300 difference between two tiers? Isn't that a bit extreme jump?

Or is there a card between 280 and 290?
 

FrgMstr

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I am sitting next to Raja K. right now and showed him the price that is "confirmed" above and he shook his head no.
 

next-Jin

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Does this new API allow people to take advantage of crossfire without thinking they have Parkinsons?
 

jwcalla

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nVidia really screwed the pooch big time. If this takes off, they're going to have a mountain to climb to reach AMD levels of performance on certain titles.
NVIDIA has been talking about this for years and never followed through, so hey... what can you do.

But I see this as completely pulling the rug from beneath Valve's feet. All that talk about optimizations on SteamOS is right out the window. Ohh yeah... this will be "cross platform" eventually. But initially? Windows only.
 

Elios

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NVIDIA has been talking about this for years and never followed through, so hey... what can you do.

But I see this as completely pulling the rug from beneath Valve's feet. All that talk about optimizations on SteamOS is right out the window. Ohh yeah... this will be "cross platform" eventually. But initially? Windows only.
because if NV did it people would be hanging them out to dry
 

mrmandude

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NVIDIA has been talking about this for years and never followed through, so hey... what can you do.

But I see this as completely pulling the rug from beneath Valve's feet. All that talk about optimizations on SteamOS is right out the window. Ohh yeah... this will be "cross platform" eventually. But initially? Windows only.
Given that it's still in its infancy and strictly limited to DICE/EA, I'm not at all worried. DICE was given the early go-ahead to test it in its early form, and DICE, although they noted that cross platform was incredibly important to them, is still heavily relying on Windows - as do most game studios; Valve and Steam included. I think we'll see a Linux compatible API very soon.

This says more about DirectX and Windows than it does Linux. An API like this bypasses Microsoft's DirectX and offers better performance to boot.
 

Elios

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Given that it's still in its infancy and strictly limited to DICE/EA, I'm not at all worried. DICE was given the early go-ahead to test it in its early form, and DICE, although they noted that cross platform was incredibly important to them, is still heavily relying on Windows - as do most game studios; Valve and Steam included. I think we'll see a Linux compatible API very soon.

This says more about DirectX and Windows than it does Linux. An API like this bypasses Microsoft's DirectX and offers better performance to boot.
it also locks people to one vendor at which point they can charge any thing want for hardware
 

DPI

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nVidia really screwed the pooch big time. If this takes off, they're going to have a mountain to climb to reach AMD levels of performance on certain titles.
LMAO. Its more like AMD compensating to try reaching performance mountaintops on certain titles where NVIDIA already stands. I would be seriously surprised if AMD flagship card in BF4 on mandarin or whatever bests an NVIDIA on DX.

Double-edged sword thing happening here, really. Good in its attempt to break from the DirectX stranglehold and vicious cycle of Microsuck, bad in that it comes at the cost of additional fragmentation and brand lock-in which is why it'll never take off. AMD took out a second mortgage to give EA a big check for indulging their API, not sure they can afford to write big checks to many others big publishers.
 

Elios

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LMAO. Its more like AMD compensating to try reaching performance mountaintops on certain titles where NVIDIA already stands. I would be seriously surprised if AMD flagship card in BF4 on mandarin or whatever bests an NVIDIA on DX.

Double-edged sword thing happening here, really. Good in its attempt to break from the DirectX stranglehold and vicious cycle of Microsuck, bad in that it comes at the cost of additional fragmentation and brand lock-in which is why it'll never take off. AMD took out a second mortgage to give EA a big check for indulging their API, not sure they can afford to write big checks to many others big publishers.
if AMD cant bitchslap and NV card with a lowlevel API then AMD FAILED... HARD
if its not at lest 2x faster mantle is failure
 

Kor

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NVIDIA has been talking about this for years and never followed through, so hey... what can you do.

But I see this as completely pulling the rug from beneath Valve's feet. All that talk about optimizations on SteamOS is right out the window. Ohh yeah... this will be "cross platform" eventually. But initially? Windows only.
Not really, AMD would have a vested interest in working with Valve to ensure this stuff comes over to steam OS as cleanly and quickly as possible.
 

Kor

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LMAO. Its more like AMD compensating to try reaching performance mountaintops on certain titles where NVIDIA already stands. I would be seriously surprised if AMD flagship card in BF4 on mandarin or whatever bests an NVIDIA on DX.

Double-edged sword thing happening here, really. Good in its attempt to break from the DirectX stranglehold and vicious cycle of Microsuck, bad in that it comes at the cost of additional fragmentation and brand lock-in which is why it'll never take off. AMD took out a second mortgage to give EA a big check for indulging their API, not sure they can afford to write big checks to many others big publishers.
Comments like this don't exactly make you look credible.
 

DPI

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But I see this as completely pulling the rug from beneath Valve's feet. All that talk about optimizations on SteamOS is right out the window. Ohh yeah... this will be "cross platform" eventually. But initially? Windows only.
Huh? What does one have to do with the other? SteamOS is a longterm initiative. Maybe you're not seeing the helicopter view.

In any case I say this announcement does hold some good things, for one its lighting fires under complacent asses that haven't been innovating. Innovation in the PC space has been kind of sedentary and up until yesterday really only Valve has been interested in igniting new fires in this space.
 

Wildace

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it also locks people to one vendor at which point they can charge any thing want for hardware
Mantle is open, its not locked to amd.

its just a matter of Nvidia wanting to use it or not.
 

Wildace

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you dont know what a low level API is do you...
i do, and like i said its open, if nvidia wants to use it they have the ability to do so, i didnt say it would be easy. but it is open.
 

Elios

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i do, and like i said its open, if nvidia wants to use it they have the ability to do so, i didnt say it would be easy. but it is open.
then its not low level and "to the metal" then is it?
so is it an open abstraction or is "to the metal"?
hint: it cant be both
 

mrmandude

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Mantle is open, its not locked to amd.

its just a matter of Nvidia wanting to use it or not.
I'm not sure what AMD meant by open, but given the usage of 'low level API' and 'closer to metal', I'm betting they were referring to Linux and availability. If it's based on console-like APIs, then it's likely we're talking about a different "open."
 

Elios

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you bet your ass they will make portable across different OS
again they want to lock people in to THERE hardware

cant compete lock in the hardware
 

pcjunkie

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Between Valves' announcements this week and AMD's unveiling today I'm more confused and in the dark than ever. All were getting is lip service and Marketing promises. No offense but I'm getting sick of this king of bullshit without seeing the hardware/software in actual use.
 
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