AMD, Where Are You?

[Shintai]

Vulkan and FreeSync come to mind pretty easily. Not to mention that current Nvidia cards are more optimized for DX11 than DX12 whereas AMD cards do better in DX12 than DX11. Hell, Nvidia has gone backwards now by eliminating 3 and 4-way SLI.

Man, this thread turned into a Shintai/razor1 pro-Nvidia circle-jerk in a hurry.

Why dont you tell us what AMD graphics IP for its hardware have done since the first GCN. When Tahiti/Tonga/Polaris all performs about the same with equal clocks and SP count (When ignoring heavy tessellation for Polaris). What amazing developments was done? And what are we to expect for the future?

 

[Creig]

Newer released games says no. It was based nothing more on a PR myth, game sponsorship and AMDs lack buster DX11 driver that they are now finally making improvements to.

According to whom? You?

 

[Shintai]

According to whom? You?

Benchmarks? You may also note that Async performance isn't equal with DX12 performance


Microsoft game for example. Note that Kepler does better than GCN 1.0.

Then there is an Nvidia sponsored one:

BF1, tho beta:

And Vulkan? You may check up on the latest patches there in terms of Doom. And its still using neutral shaders for Nvidia

Anyway, why dont you tell me what AMD is going to do with the current situation.

 

[razor1]

Vulkan and FreeSync come to mind pretty easily. Not to mention that current Nvidia cards are more optimized for DX11 than DX12 whereas AMD cards do better in DX12 than DX11. Hell, Nvidia has gone backwards now by eliminating 3 and 4-way SLI.

Man, this thread turned into a Shintai/razor1 pro-Nvidia circle-jerk in a hurry.

Really, dx12 games evolved games 3 out of 5 exhibit AMD doing better in their Dx11 versions that the comparative nV cards, you don't think that is something we shouldn't mention? Then you have the 3 game works titles, DX12 versions, that run better on nV hardware. Why is this happening? Has it really changed from before, or is that AMD shifted their dev resources to DX12 and Vulkan (LLAPI) before nV did?''

The problem is, I do see good in AMD (Zen, if things come out the way it looks to be in their whitepapers, and their push for new tech) and bad in nV, lackadaisical LLAPI push, you don't see that shit, you won't mention that shit, because a one track mind only goes one way.

But AMD's faults out weigh their positives, they have many thing to correct and not much time to do it. Blame it on bad management, insufficient funds due to mismanagement what ever. That is the reality of the situation. And yeah it was mismanagement if they shifted their resources for dev rel and drivers over to LLAPI's too soon because that isn't what is pushing graphics card sales right now. The bulk of the games people are playing are still DX11. And Vega being so late that gives nV free reign on more then half the entire pc graphics market is no way to run a business. Polaris's launch was no way to convince OEM's they were back with supply issues and power issue right off the bat. This are things that AMD has control over, yet some how they get by? When one is down they can't give a gram of gold to the competition let alone a kg bar.

It is pathetic to sit here and make up excuses for AMD's short comings, Fiji, how many here argued with that the AIO wasn't a necessity? Fiji, how many people here stated that I was wrong about it not going to reach 980ti performance levels when it was delayed? Polaris how many people here argued with me when I stated that the it would not get to 980ti performance and its perf/watt was not going to be that good against Pascal?

All of these things were just common sense stuff, just had to hear AMD keep shifting numbers around, and giving reason where reason shouldn't be given, it should have just been understood. When thou protest too much.....

PR and marketing should never get involved months before a product launch, they should be a month or two before no more. Give a perfect example in another industry. Movies, if they have a budget that is in the tens of millions for advertising, and adverting is set to start close to 6 months before release or more, expect that movie to be SHIT.

 

[Creig]

It is pathetic to sit here and make up excuses for AMD's short comings, Fiji, how many here argued with that the AIO wasn't a necessity? Fiji, how many people here stated that I was wrong about it not going to reach 980ti performance levels when it was delayed? Polaris how many people here argued with me when I stated that the it would not get to 980ti performance and its perf/watt was not going to be that good against Pascal?

I'm sure I could find many people that said the $700 780Ti would always be faster than a $550 290X. And we all know how THAT turned out. Hell, the 290X is now faster than the $1,000 Titan.

I don't see anything wrong with the RX series. It gives good performance at a good price. It doesn't really bother me that AMD doesn't have a $1,000 equivalent to the Titan or a $600 equivalent to the GTX1080. I currently game at 1080P, the most commonly used resolution by far. 99% of the gamers out there don't need a Titan or 1080. Even if I upgrade to 1440P, a single RX480 would still give good performance. And I have a lot more faith in AMD to continue to improve RX480 performance over its lifespan than I would an equivalent Nvidia card.

 

[razor1]

I'm sure I could find many people that said the $700 780Ti would always be faster than a $550 290X. And we all know how THAT turned out. Hell, the 290X is now faster than the $1,000 Titan.

I don't see anything wrong with the RX series. It gives good performance at a good price. It doesn't really bother me that AMD doesn't have a $1,000 equivalent to the Titan or a $600 equivalent to the GTX1080. I currently game at 1080P, the most commonly used resolution by far. 99% of the gamers out there don't need a Titan or 1080. Even if I upgrade to 1440P, a single RX480 would still give good performance. And I have a lot more faith in AMD to continue to improve RX480 performance over its lifespan than I would an equivalent Nvidia card.

People that bought a 780ti for 700 bucks are not going to be keep that card for long when the 980ti came out they would have jumped ship, most of them, and when the 1080 gtx came out, they would have definitely jumped for that one. That is problem you don't get what goes through an enthusiasts head, they are willing to spend top dollar to get the best they can get. 1k might be out of reach for them but those are the ultra enthusiasts and those guys will pay for the max they can get price really doesn't matter to them.

AMD by keeping their cards more relevant to some degree are not making as much money, which is not good for them, great for their competition of course because it forces AMD not to have as much money for R&D and company expenses. Good for the consumer bad for the company, AMD should be in the business of making money not handing it out to their competition.

The RX series only matches up in their favor with last gen Maxwell 2 so far in all metrics and benchmarks, and that is why they are not selling as well as pascal, sorry but what else can you say when you see newegg, newegg.ca, amazon reviews, mindfactory.de sales figures, steam survey numbers, all showing the same thing. I have no faith in GCN at this point, because its been 3 generations and they are still hampered by its perf/watt issues compared to the competition and they no longer have an advantage on raw TFLOPS, something they had for how many generations now, 6? And their throughput problems took 3 gens to catch up to nV's last gen 960? Well they still have more to fix there then.

Pascal gave an upgrade path for anyone with a r290/390 and up, how long do you think people that have a r290/390 and up still just sit around and wait for Vega? 2 months, 3 months 6 months 1 year? That is what AMD is telling those people to do wait for a year. People buying Fiji for 650 bucks are enthusiasts, when they see a 1080 that runs circles around their card for 600 bucks they will want that card, they aren't looking at a $450 1070. The people that are looking at the 1070 are the guys that bought the r290/r390 level cards because that is their price range, and the 1070 runs circles around those cards. These are the upgrade paths that are available for an entire year. Just keep in mind when AMD asked people to wait for Fiji what happened..... or the r600, of when nV asked people to wait for the fx, or Fermi v1. These things don't just happen, if there is a delay like this, something went wrong lol. Polaris we can definitely see what went wrong with those GPU's, a chip that is half the size and a full node lower with finfet only matching perf/watt of 28nm chips? That is a pretty server problem to have and to fix with Vega with around 6 more months of development.

You don't understand what we are saying, the mainstream segment with the value segment don't even come close to the total volume sales of the performance segment, margins are thin in the mainstream segment, AMD has stated this 30 ish% or so, value is even less. AMD can't float by with mainstream only, they need to increase margins over 40% and increase marketshare to around 40% to keep them relevant in the graphics business. If the 1060 didn't come out or the 1050 wouldn't come out, then AMD can get close to 40% otherwise that won't happen. Leaving the performance and enthusiast segment open for nV for the taking, that alone is 55%+ of the market in total volume sales. Then you have super high margin HPC and content markets which is all nV's for the taking too because those cards run on those very same performance and enthusiast GPU's.

How was AMD's midrange and low end strategy even worth while when they can't even sell as much of the combined 480, 470, 460 as much as a 1080? Launch time is when most cards are sold in the shortest amount of time, and if they had stock issues which gave time for the 1060 to come out, the 1060 would just eat up sales of the 480 and 470 and that is what happened, it came out later but already outselling the other two combined, even the 460 if it was added into that total, what is going to happen with the 1050 coming out? Say good bye to AMD's rx460 sales, because the 1050 looks to be quite a bit faster at least the ti version.

Did you see any of AMD's pre Polaris release marketing come true? Here is a list of things they stated

They had a decisive advantage and time lead with finfet process
VR for the TAM (midrange)
nV not concerned with the TAM or VR
nV only concentrating on car AI
Polaris going to redefine perf/watt for its segment.
VR going to be a big selling point for graphics cards
LLAPI will favor AMD more

You don't ignore so much crap coming out of AMD's mouth when its so obvious they were trying to cover up their own short comings. All of these statements helped drive the price of AMD up (small degree compared to Zen and other things their management has been doing), but now AMD hasn't produced, if those q3 numbers show the same thing, night night for AMD's stock price (still Zen is there so most likely not) but the increase in stock price has helped AMD get out of some debt which is good for them, something they needed to do. You want to rail on nV's game programs, and things they have done, but when AMD lies to you like this and pretty much thinks their consumers are fools, you are ok with that? Why don't you call them out? Maybe their consumers are fools, that is why no one talks about them. nV doesn't give a shit because AMD is not competing with them anymore, they want to stay away from AMD as much as possible if they can.

I can't take anything they show or say for face value unless they show me everything with it being back up with data, that is why I can't trust Zen's on stage presentation too. It looks good, but it might not look like that over all.

Vega, well after Polaris I have really no understanding why people put faith in AMD without something concrete.

Stretching the numbers a little bit is one thing, but nV when they stated the 1070 was going to edge out the last gen Titan X it did just that, when they stated the 1080 was going to beat the last gen Titan X by 30% it did just that.

When Raja showed off two Polaris cards vs a 1080 and stated we still have 50% more room for improvement gains and we are beating the 1080 in AOTS, was just BS lol.

Do you see how these companies present information differently?

Now I don't blame AMD for doing these things, I just wish they won't do these things, because its not just frustrating when the actual numbers come out and we find out they are just talking smack, they are literally castrating themselves when it comes to sales.

I play basketball quite a bit, and ya know that one crazy young kid that thinks he is hot shit? That is what AMD is like, if you can't back up your talk, DON'T TALK AT ALL, because once that spot light is on ya, everyone wants a piece of ya.

 

[noko]

Man some of the folks here should run AMD - they know so much about everything that will make them successful and profitable.

DeusEx MD most recent update and AMD driver is running much better in DX 12 than DX 11. Some things are updated for those who don't know with software.

I rather AMD do Vega right vice rush it out, then again no one should waste time with one if they don't perform well compared to the competition.

 

[SighTurtle]

I play basketball quite a bit, and ya know that one crazy young kid that thinks he is hot shit? That is what AMD is like, if you can't back up your talk, DON'T TALK AT ALL, because once that spot light is on ya, everyone wants a piece of ya.

To be fair, if you don't talk, no one is gonna fall for it (not when Nvidia's stuff is pretty awesome) and AMD is gonna get less than the amount its already getting. It worked through. If I'm not wrong, that stock offering went well enough for their debt to be pushed back. More time to survive. I mean they are losing confidence but....bankruptcy is bankruptcy.

 

[Shintai]

Man some of the folks here should run AMD - they know so much about everything that will make them successful and profitable.

DeusEx MD most recent update and AMD driver is running much better in DX 12 than DX 11. Some things are updated for those who don't know with software.

I rather AMD do Vega right vice rush it out, then again no one should waste time with one if they don't perform well compared to the competition.

The problem is AMD is a CPU(server to be precise) company, always. Anything graphics is always a second thought. So whenever money gets low and/or problem rises, graphics is the first place to lose out.

 

[SighTurtle]

The problem is AMD is a CPU(server to be precise) company, always. Anything graphics is always a second thought. So whenever money gets low and/or problem rises, graphics is the first place to lose out.

To be fair (again), isn't the CPU market a lot bigger than the GPU market?

http://press.ihs.com/sites/ihs.news...elease/file/2014-12-18_Semi_Ranking_Final.jpg

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/10613/nvidia_gpu_revenue_split.png

Edit: I mean, CPU market share is pretty flat-line dead for AMD, nothing but up right? But GPU, 30% - 25%? Nvidia isn't gonna let AMD room to breathe, AMD needs money to bolster R&D, if Zen is good enough to make money, then they should probably focus as much as possible on that.

Edit: To add to that, AMD has been improving some aspects of graphics, like drivers. But how long does it take to make GPU architectures? Zen got started in 2012, and is gonna come out 2017. Assuming Kyle is not entirely correct and Raja Koduri is attempting to get Radeon on track, how long does a GPU architecture take to create?

 

[Shintai]

To be fair (again), isn't the CPU market a lot bigger than the GPU market?

http://press.ihs.com/sites/ihs.news...elease/file/2014-12-18_Semi_Ranking_Final.jpg

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/10613/nvidia_gpu_revenue_split.png

Edit: I mean, CPU market share is pretty flat-line dead for AMD, nothing but up right? But GPU, 30% - 25%? Nvidia isn't gonna let AMD room to breathe, AMD needs money to bolster R&D, if Zen is good enough to make money, then they should probably focus as much as possible on that.

Only up for AMDs CPU market? No. Plenty of room for down.

That depends how you see it. The GPU market for Nvidia is bigger than AMDs CPU market.

The problem with R&D is that its future products. AMDs R&D collapse began in 2012. And we sure see the GPU effects. And for CPU? Ye, I doubt anything will change to put it diplomatically. Even if AMD magically fixed R&D today. New products with the benefit would take several years to emerge.

It can be hard to see here:

Easier here vs Nvidia only:

And AMD is trying to fight both. Even if AMD used all its R&D on RTG, I wouldn't be that optimistic. Because Nvidia uses ~50% more.

 

[Pieter3dnow]

Man some of the folks here should run AMD - they know so much about everything that will make them successful and profitable.
DeusEx MD most recent update and AMD driver is running much better in DX 12 than DX 11. Some things are updated for those who don't know with software.
I rather AMD do Vega right vice rush it out, then again no one should waste time with one if they don't perform well compared to the competition.

Most (if not all) of them are so clueless it is a waste of time trying to take anything they write seriously.

Every one knows Vega is not coming this year. So 2017 is another time and with a bit of luck a very nice video card.

 

[noko]

Only up for AMDs CPU market? No. Plenty of room for down.

That depends how you see it. The GPU market for Nvidia is bigger than AMDs CPU market.

The problem with R&D is that its future products. AMDs R&D collapse began in 2012. And we sure see the GPU effects. And for CPU? Ye, I doubt anything will change to put it diplomatically. Even if AMD magically fixed R&D today. New products with the benefit would take several years to emerge.

It can be hard to see here:

Easier here vs Nvidia only:

And AMD is trying to fight both. Even if AMD used all its R&D on RTG, I wouldn't be that optimistic. Because Nvidia uses ~50% more.

Yes and Nvidia does such a great job with that R&D such as GameWorks and the advancement of DX11 while doing little to the more capable modern API's like DX 12 and Vulcan. Plus all their stellar work with next generation consoles (maybe Nvdia will make something finally worth while for Nintendo to grab, still could be AMD), cpu from scratch like Zen, new memory standards (like HBM) plus their well sought after Tegra processors that soak up power to make a x86 processor blush (doing good in the car industry though). Not to mention the very advance cooler design with flat planes angled to each other for the well cooled and quiet Founders Edition cards that everyone just can't get enough of for the well worth additional cost.

AMD R&D money spent seems to go way further then Nvidia R&D in the end.

 

[Chimpee]

Yes and Nvidia does such a great job with that R&D such as GameWorks and the advancement of DX11 while doing little to the more capable modern API's like DX 12 and Vulcan. Plus all their stellar work with next generation consoles (maybe Nvdia will make something finally worth while for Nintendo to grab, still could be AMD), cpu from scratch like Zen, new memory standards (like HBM) plus their well sought after Tegra processors that soak up power to make a x86 processor blush (doing good in the car industry though). Not to mention the very advance cooler design with flat planes angled to each other for the well cooled and quiet Founders Edition cards that everyone just can't get enough of for the well worth additional cost.

AMD R&D money spent seems to go way further then Nvidia R&D in the end.

You gotta admit, nVidia make money hand over fist while AMD isn't. I hardly think Zen is made from scratch, if anything they are most likely doing what Intel did with Core after Pentium 4 is going back to their Athlon roots and advance from there.

 

[noko]

You gotta admit, nVidia make money hand over fist while AMD isn't. I hardly think Zen is made from scratch, if anything they are most likely doing what Intel did with Core after Pentium 4 is going back to their Athlon roots and advance from there.

No doubt and Nvidia has some great stuff but I do not see them all rosy smelling either.

 

[Creig]

You gotta admit, nVidia make money hand over fist while AMD isn't.

Nvidia makes money the same way Apple does. By overcharging its rabid fanbase.

"Founders Edition"

'nuff said.

 

[stashix]

Nvidia makes money the same way Apple does. By overcharging its rabid fanbase.

"Founders Edition"

'nuff said.

Well you have to give it to them - at least they have the products to overcharge for.

 

[Creig]

/snip wall-o-text

AMD by keeping their cards more relevant to some degree are not making as much money, which is not good for them, great for their competition of course because it forces AMD not to have as much money for R&D and company expenses. Good for the consumer bad for the company, AMD should be in the business of making money not handing it out to their competition.

Really? So AMD should stop supporting products before their time? You mean like Nvidia did with Kepler? Sorry, but I'm an end consumer. My goal is to get the best deal for myself, not to look after the bottom end of some corporation. I like AMD more than Nvidia so I'll continue to support them so long as their products give me a good return on my investment. I couldn't care less which company makes more money.

 

[razor1]

Really? So AMD should stop supporting products before their time? You mean like Nvidia did with Kepler? Sorry, but I'm an end consumer. My goal is to get the best deal for myself, not to look after the bottom end of some corporation. I like AMD more than Nvidia so I'll continue to support them so long as their products give me a good return on my investment. I couldn't care less which company makes more money.

When did nV stop supporting Keplar, do you realize they are still supporting Fermi, when the same gen cards from AMD are not supported any more? Stop talking BS.

You are an end consumer yet you don't even know the products you are talking about.....

My goal is the to get the best I can get for a reasonable price, and for me 1k is not a bad thing when I'm spending 2.5 k on my CPU's!

 

[skeeder]

I realize this is hardforum, but the RX480 landed exactly where it needed to. The 970/1060 are the range that sells the most. I gave a nod to the 470, but I'm not sure what they were thinking with the 460.

So---should they launch a 490? I think that's where the OP wanted the conversation to go instead of a stockprice, company finances, type of stuff.

I think they should, I think they should launch with board partners only since that made a huge difference for the RX470 over the RX480. I think they need to open the throttle a little more and give it a 150w base and a way to cool itself more effectively.

 

[Creig]

When did nV stop supporting Keplar, do you realize they are still supporting Fermi, when the same gen cards from AMD are not supported any more? Stop talking BS. You are an end consumer yet you don't even know the products you are talking about.....

No BS. Kepler performance has quickly tanked and many people suspect Nvidia of doing this deliberately in order to force people to buy their newer products. I don't know why you sound so surprised. After all, isn't this what you just got done saying that AMD should be doing as well?

AMD by keeping their cards more relevant to some degree are not making as much money, which is not good for them, great for their competition of course because it forces AMD not to have as much money for R&D and company expenses. Good for the consumer bad for the company, AMD should be in the business of making money not handing it out to their competition.

My goal is the to get the best I can get for a reasonable price, and for me 1k is not a bad thing when I'm spending 2.5 k on my CPU's!

Although I could afford to spend the same on my system, I don't need to spend large sums of cash in order to enjoy playing video games.

 

[Factum]

No BS. Kepler performance has quickly tanked and many people suspect Nvidia of doing this deliberately in order to force people to buy their newer products. I don't know why you sound so surprised. After all, isn't this what you just got done saying that AMD should be doing as well?
.

BS...and I bet you cannot document the claim about Kepler performance...it was debunked long ago...only a ignorant fanboy would still claim such nonsense...

 

[skeeder]

No BS. Kepler performance has quickly tanked and many people suspect Nvidia of doing this deliberately in order to force people to buy their newer products. I don't know why you sound so surprised. After all, isn't this what you just got done saying that AMD should be doing as well?

Kepler performance tanked? really? I was running BF4 on medium settings on my 550TI 5 weeks ago. I call BS on that statement. It also handled Deus HR, TR 2013, Bioshock Infinite, and many others on respectable settings given its age and price bracket.

Oh--now its my HTPC card where it rocks rocket league and Lego games with my kids on a weekly basis.

 

[Pieter3dnow]

BS...and I bet you cannot document the claim about Kepler performance...it was debunked long ago...only a ignorant fanboy would still claim such nonsense...

You would know what you are talking about instead of proofing things you just call people names and state fanboy that wins any argument.

 

[Chimpee]

No doubt and Nvidia has some great stuff but I do not see them all rosy smelling either.

Indeed,

Nvidia makes money the same way Apple does. By overcharging its rabid fanbase.

"Founders Edition"

'nuff said.

AMD will do the exact same thing if they have a product that will let them do it. I will give you this, FE is pretty stupid and nVidia is getting away with it is since AMD isn't competing.

 

[Factum]

You would know what you are talking about instead of proofing things you just call people names and state fanboy that wins any argument.

Okay, here is one bit:

The GTX 780 TI & SLI – End of Life – Driver Performance Analysis – Updated 7/3/2015 | BYTE Me Development – Advert Free Browsing ^.^

Now you present something...besides empty words...I bet that you cannot...but you will try and spin this into soemthing else...prove me wrong!

Ball in you court...

 

[Creig]

AMD will do the exact same thing if they have a product that will let them do it. I will give you this, FE is pretty stupid and nVidia is getting away with it is since AMD isn't competing.

The reason Nvidia is getting away with it is because so many gamers out there feel that owning the fastest available video card is only slightly less important than breathing.

It's very simple. If nobody bought a "Founders Edition" card, Nvidia would have dropped the price premium already. There can be no doubt. But people would rather blame AMD than admit it's their own fault for paying the FE tax just to get it a month earlier than an AIB card.

 

[Factum]

One more to debunk FUD from ignorant posters:
GTX 780 Ti vs R9 290X; The Rematch

 

[Chimpee]

The reason Nvidia is getting away with it is because so many gamers out there feel that owning the fastest available video card is only slightly less important than breathing.

It's very simple. If nobody bought a "Founders Edition" card, Nvidia would have dropped the price premium already. There can be no doubt. But people would rather blame AMD than admit it's their own fault for paying the FE tax just to get it a month earlier than an AIB card.

I have no problem gamers out there owning the fastest out there, if they are willing to shell out money then so be it, there will be always people out there where money is not an issue. If AMD isn't competing why shouldn't nVidia milk their product for what it is worth, and based on sale number from mindfactory, it seems like people have no problem paying for it. Are you mad because nVidia is milking their product or are you mad because AMD isn't the one doing it?

 

[Final8ty]

I have no problem gamers out there owning the fastest out there, if they are willing to shell out money then so be it, there will be always people out there where money is not an issue. If AMD isn't competing why shouldn't nVidia milk their product for what it is worth, and based on sale number from mindfactory, it seems like people have no problem paying for it. Are you mad because nVidia is milking their product or are you mad because AMD isn't the one doing it?

I can't speak for Creig but i don't like be milliked by anyone, the last top end card i bought was the 5970s.

 

[Chimpee]

I can't speak for Creig but i don't link be milliked by anyone, the last top end card i bought was the 5970s.

Neither do I but this is the position we are in. Though the only milking I allow is my gf.

 

[razor1]

No BS. Kepler performance has quickly tanked and many people suspect Nvidia of doing this deliberately in order to force people to buy their newer products. I don't know why you sound so surprised. After all, isn't this what you just got done saying that AMD should be doing as well?

We have seen multiple reviews test that theory out and that is not the case, new games push cards differently that is all that came out from that. There is no surprise here, that theory has been debunking numerous times by independent reviewers. Just have to look at when the g80 lasted 3 gens, the same thing happened, AMD older gen cards did not hold up in performance like the older tesla generation cards did with new games. Why should anyone be surprised it was just propaganda when you have independent tests that showed otherwise? Just because newer games push the shader array more doesn't mean older games played differently and that is exactly what those reviews showed the games tested vs the different driver versions, there was very little change in performance on a per game level, but newer games hurt the older cards more, so when people started comparing review vs review, but didn't check how the reviews changed the applications they were using, by only looking at the end resultant % they thought nV was doing something to make their new cards look better, which was not the case. This is why the internet is full of idiots lol, looking at something objectively and understanding why those changes are there by picking apart the data is not something many people are good at because

A) they don't know what they are looking at most of the time
B) Too lazy to do the leg work
C) too dumb to understand the information in total.

Although I could afford to spend the same on my system, I don't need to spend large sums of cash in order to enjoy playing video games.

And it is a personal choice, that is kinda what I stated, different people have different wants and needs. Who are we to say enthusiasts are spending their money frivolously or mid range buyers don't know what they are doing because they have to upgrade more often, and so on and so forth, people work for their money and they are the ones that are comfortable with the way they spend their money.

nV found their sweet spot of 1.5 years per upgrade, and they design their cards to last around that time at which point devs will make games that utilize more or less of different units which gives reason for people to upgrade cards. nV has always been better at this than AMD or ATi for that matter, designing cards for the current crop of games.

If AMD did the same it would be better for them, if investing into LLAPI's is talking away from older API performance in their cards, its just bad for AMD, as that is what happened, they have lost half their marketshare since DX11 was introduced :/. And the problems got worse once they focused on Mantle and the new API's. After loosing 20% marketshare, to get that back, is going to be very hard unless your product can overwhelm the competition's in virtually ever metric. Because now what has happened is even people that were always red team have switched over to green team and to get them back will be very hard unless you give them reason to come back.

 

[NeoNemesis]

Nah, they moved everything to China remember? Not sure there are any Americans left.

Most people forget that before AMD bought ATi, they were proudly Canadian.

I shed more than one tear that day....

I still remember my 9500 pro

 

[Creig]

I have no problem gamers out there owning the fastest out there, if they are willing to shell out money then so be it, there will be always people out there where money is not an issue. If AMD isn't competing why shouldn't nVidia milk their product for what it is worth, and based on sale number from mindfactory, it seems like people have no problem paying for it. Are you mad because nVidia is milking their product or are you mad because AMD isn't the one doing it?

Neither.

If people are willingly fleeced by a company, that's entirely their choice and nobody can stop them. I'm simply saying that these people need to own up to the fact that they submitted to it all on their own. But instead, I keep reading posts stating that it's somehow all AMD's fault because they don't have a product in the $600 to $1,000 price bracket. Apparently it's more comforting to blame AMD than those who pay the high prices and therefore support Nvidia's pricing scheme.

 

[razor1]

Neither.

If people are willingly fleeced by a company, that's entirely their choice and nobody can stop them. I'm simply saying that these people need to own up to the fact that they submitted to it all on their own. But instead, I keep reading posts stating that it's somehow all AMD's fault because they don't have a product in the $600 to $1,000 price bracket. Apparently it's more comforting to blame AMD than those who pay the high prices and therefore support Nvidia's pricing scheme.

Well AMD doesn't so how can you have them not blame AMD for not competing, what you want them to give pity sales to AMD so they can get back on their feet? You want these people to waste their money on a product they don't want?

Supply and demand comes from the company to provide the product first, demand follows the cost/need basis of the consumer. The consumer only has say when a product is available not when its not available.

Simple rules of economics the product drives demand not the other way around.

If people are willing to be fleeced by a company, it is because they are ok with the price they have to pay, again, its their money, money they have worked for, they are comfortable with spending that money as they see fit, so they aren't getting fleeced at all.

And even in a monopoly the price will have an effect on demand, there is a fine line between overpriced to the point where demand drops. We have seen this in the high end enthusiasts already. We have seen this as more people are willing to spend on performance segment vs Midrange, where midrange 4 years ago was the bread and butter of these companies it no longer is because of the cost of R&D has pushed it to the performance segments, nV made the transition, AMD hasn't yet.

Easy to say it too, if R&D doubles, costs at the end should double too right? Which R&D from 28nm to 14nm has doubled, yeah you don't see cards doubling in price per segment but you do see nV's costs per bracket go up a bit but also the increase in the performance segment sales has dropped the need to increase price too much as margins are increasing overall for them, unlike AMD where margins have been steadily dropping because they haven't pushed their consumer base off the midrange cards yet, as they don't have any cards higher then the midrange.

 

[Pieter3dnow]

Well AMD doesn't so how can you have them not blame AMD for not competing, what you want them to give pity sales to AMD so they can get back on their feet? You want these people to waste their money on a product they don't want?

Let's blame AMD for products they refuse to make that makes sense , it does to you , you know Intel killer cpu AMD just simply refuses to make it. High priced GPU AMD just simply does not make them.

Not competing is that another word for not wasting money on segments AMD does not do well in?

DX12 talk about competition ...

 

[noko]

At this time if one wants something 1080 performance wise in a single card configuration, you have a choice now. If the price is OK then one probably should buy a 1080.

At a later date AMD may have something better for the price and performance but may not as well. If one can wait to see if they can get more for less or just more overall that is their choice. I think Vega has great potential to really hit hard and perform well but I don't need to wait for that unless I am really strapped for cash or feel too limited with the current configuration.

In other words each their own on what to buy. AMD did leave a rather big hole for this period of time which of course Nvidia will reap the rewards for having something out there that people want - I don't feel sorry for AMD for lack of execution or competition. Personally I think Nvidia prices are reasonable for the performance given while the TitanX Pascal is a little bit steep it does give some great performance way above previous versions.

Now what is brewing with Polaris with an improved version with much lower power requirements is actually very exciting since that will give AMD a path back into the mobile market and do better in the mainstream market. Plus hint that Vega will be even more potent then expected.

 

[razor1]

Let's blame AMD for products they refuse to make that makes sense , it does to you , you know Intel killer cpu AMD just simply refuses to make it. High priced GPU AMD just simply does not make them.

Not competing is that another word for not wasting money on segments AMD does not do well in?

DX12 talk about competition ...

What the rx480 holds it own in only performance to the 1060 in DX12 and nothing else, power, effeciency, die size, all of these have cost implications abet not too much but for OEM's they matter, and it can't go against the 1070, it can't go up against the 1080, where are these cards from AMD that can go against Titan X? They are not competing in the MOST VALUABLE segment the performance segment and the most decisive segment for the entire line up the Halo product. Yet you had Papermaster (and a few other higher ups at AMD) saying the mainstream segment is 8.5 million cards, where the totally amount of sales is around 13 million and the performance segment is 55% of the entire market! How does that math work lol. Sorry but as a CTO of an engineering company I would expect at least 4th grade math to be done right lol. Sorry but when you have your "leaders" making mistakes like this I can see why the rest of AMD is disillusioned and think what they are doing is on the right track.

Vaporware on slides just doesn't mean anything specially when those slides in the past came out as FALSE when the product released everyone remember the <150 watts for rx480? LOL what crock was that?

Or Hallock's explanation about their power ratings in the manuals of these cards of 110 watts as GPU only power lol. What do you say about things like this?

All you can do is sit back and laugh at AMD, its so bad its funny, the way they make excuses and try to explain their mistakes with more mistakes lol.

Are they really competing or as Kyle put it, polished turd? Sure looks that way when you see what Pascal variants can do that are directly competing against Polaris are doing.

 

[Ieldra]

What the rx480 holds it own in only performance to the 1060 in DX12 and nothing else, power, effeciency, die size, all of these have cost implications abet not too much but for OEM's they matter, and it can't go against the 1070, it can't go up against the 1080, where are these cards from AMD that can go against Titan X? They are not competing in the MOST VALUABLE segment the performance segment and the most decisive segment for the entire line up the Halo product.

Vaporware on slides just doesn't mean anything specially when those slides in the past came out as FALSE when the product released everyone remember the <150 watts for rx480? LOL what crock was that?

Or Hallock's explanation about their power ratings in the manuals of these cards of 110 watts as GPU only power lol. What do you say about things like this?

All you can do is sit back and laugh at AMD, its so bad its funny, the way they make excuses and try to explain their mistakes with more mistakes lol.

Are they really competing or as Kyle put it, polished turd? Sure looks that way when you see what Pascal variants can do that are directly competing against Polaris are doing.

Man I really have it for that Hallock guy ever since he accused me of being a dimwit (implicitly) when I called them out on the RX480 mGPU bullshit, then after that he also replied to me again on reddit saying 110W is the GPU and when I asked where the fuck they were hemorrhaging 55 extra watts on top of that he didn't deign to reply. What Watt an asshole.

 

[razor1]

Man I really have it for that Hallock guy ever since he accused me of being a dimwit (implicitly) when I called them out on the RX480 mGPU bullshit, then after that he also replied to me again on reddit saying 110W is the GPU and when I asked where the fuck they were hemorrhaging 55 extra watts on top of that he didn't deign to reply. What Watt an asshole.

Of course he is an idiot lol, he is marketing, only assholes and people who couldn't make it in the real world of what they went for college for end up in marketing.

Their job is to sell ya turd, and that is what they will do even it means lie, its like a used car salesmen, dirty people. And this is also why marketing is only effective if the product is good, if ya got turd, reviewers are most gamer are knowledgeable enough to figure that out lol.