AMD Speaks Ryzen - You Should Give a Listen

[FrgMstr]

Robert Hallock, Technology Evangelist at AMD, has made a blog post over on the AMD Community page entitled, "AMD Ryzen™ Community Update." First and foremost, AMD puts the "Windows Scheduler argument" to bed.

We have investigated reports alleging incorrect thread scheduling on the AMD Ryzen™ processor. Based on our findings, AMD believes that the Windows® 10 thread scheduler is operating properly for “Zen,” and we do not presently believe there is an issue with the scheduler adversely utilizing the logical and physical configurations of the architecture.


He goes on to harpoon the Windows 7 and Windows 10 rhetoric.

We do not believe there is an issue with scheduling differences between the two versions of Windows. Any differences in performance can be more likely attributed to software architecture differences between these OSes.

Temperature Reporting and Power Plans are addressed as well. And then goes onto address all the rumors surround issues with Ryzen and SMT.

For the remaining outliers, AMD again sees multiple opportunities within the codebases of specific applications to improve how this software addresses the “Zen” architecture. We have already identified some simple changes that can improve a game’s understanding of the "Zen" core/cache topology, and we intend to provide a status update to the community when they are ready.

So the whole SMT Off/On issue has not been fully addressed yet and it seems that AMD is seeing some things in regard to this that will need to be addressed.

 

[ole-m]

I aint sure... in 2 core threaded applications\games it randomly picks cores, from different CCX severely messes up performance.
It is very far from being on par with intel with everything working, but it's a lot closer in some scenarios but 10% is 10% in 10% of the games.

CCX issue seems to be the only issue.

 

[gamerk2]

I aint sure... in 2 core threaded applications\games it randomly picks cores, from different CCX severely messes up performance.
It is very far from being on par with intel with everything working, but it's a lot closer in some scenarios but 10% is 10% in 10% of the games.

CCX issue seems to be the only issue.

Going to point out: That's how Windows is designed to schedule threads. Windows cares about thread uptime; if a thread was running on Core 1, got bumped, and Core 5 is open the next time the thread gets scheduled, it gets scheduled on Core 5. This works OK when you can treat all non-SMT cores as equal. With Ryzen, this isn't the case.

 

[Tengis]

This is going to sound stupid to someone, Im sure... but...

... if a game/application is single threaded and cant take advantage of a processor like Ryzen, then why has AMD not created some type of a "wrapper" through drivers/software that communicates with a single threaded application but distributes the workload across X numbers of actual cores and/or threads?

That being said, it also makes me wonder if its possible to put the "wrapper" at a transparent hardware level (on the cpu) that can be activated by software so that the operating system only sees one or two cores instead of 8 cores/16 threads that it cant take advantage of.

 

[ManofGod]

Not sure I understand why they added 20C to the real temp readings. At least now I know why my 1700X seems to be running hotter than my 1700 non X.

 

[alamox]

i really hope they find a solution for gaming to buff up performance a bit, because average 25% slower is really bad, if not i hope the 4 core wouldn't have the same issue, and the 6 core a bit less since it should have less data swaping on the fabric.

 

[SvenBent]

I aint sure... in 2 core threaded applications\games it randomly picks cores, from different CCX severely messes up performance.
It is very far from being on par with intel with everything working, but it's a lot closer in some scenarios but 10% is 10% in 10% of the games.

CCX issue seems to be the only issue.

SMT will always be a penalty in some middle ground of multithreaded software. Whatever intel or AMD. It's just the nature of SMT when you treat all logical cores identically.

This is going to sound stupid to someone, Im sure... but...

... if a game/application is single threaded and cant take advantage of a processor like Ryzen, then why has AMD not created some type of a "wrapper" through drivers/software that communicates with a single threaded application but distributes the workload across X numbers of actual cores and/or threads?

That being said, it also makes me wonder if its possible to put the "wrapper" at a transparent hardware level (on the cpu) that can be activated by software so that the operating system only sees one or two cores instead of 8 cores/16 threads that it cant take advantage of.

Plese tell me how you will split this math up and calcaulte the 3 steps at the same time

X := 2
Y := X+ 2
X := Y/X


You need the results from the privious operation to be able to continue the next one.. its impossible to separate it into 3 individualized threads and calculate it in parallel
People with no coding ability need to stop talking like they are an expert and found the holy grale on multithreading.

The 2nd thing is called affinity. you can control wich cores soft ware "see" aka runs on


again:
If people would help fix some of the perfomrance issues with ryzen i still need benchmarks from peopl that have ryzen
https://hardforum.com/threads/amd-ryzen-game-performance-fix.1926435/#post-1042858032

This can be done with games or with cpu benchmarks where you can set the nubmer of threads ( cinebench and 7-zip)

Simply run a benchmark with 4-8 thread without my fix running note down th score
run it again with the same numbes of threads with my fix running in the background

Report the diffrence


If you want to have the SMT fix its more or less built into my project mercury. no need to fully disable SMT to avoid the penalty in games.

I am however looking at making the fixes more dynamic and smart.

 

[Formula.350]

Not sure I understand why they added 20C to the real temp readings. At least now I know why my 1700X seems to be running hotter than my 1700 non X.

I think to make it a "95W" part, versus a 65W part. Frankly, that was the only thing I could come up with as to the reason. They probably have it dialed in that if Ryzen is running >this temp< that it means (roughly) >this much< power is being consumed.



As far as CCX, I agree with the rest. Unfortunately I'm just an arm-chair analyst at this stage, since I'm in that "still waiting for a motherboard to ship" boat that most everyone else on the planet is in.

 

[Ocellaris]

AMD is responsible for making sure the CPU works best on the target platform, Windows 10. Looks like they screwed this up and people will have to come to grips the Ryzen platform has limitations which won't be resolved this generation.

 

[Tengis]

People with no coding ability need to stop talking like they are an expert and found the holy grale on multithreading.

Ya... nowhere did I claim to be an expert or did I claim to find the holy grail of multithreading. It was merely a thought.

 

[SvenBent]

Ya... nowhere did I claim to be an expert or did I claim to find the holy grail of multithreading. It was merely a thought.

You are right I did overreact on that one. You even clearly stated "This is going to sound stupid to someone, Im sure... but...".

It does happens a lot and i've seen it badly lately, so you just received build up steam unfairly.
I should had avoided the attack/insulting tone and just kept with the explanation.

 

[Uvaman2]

AMD is responsible for making sure the CPU works best on the target platform, Windows 10. Looks like they screwed this up and people will have to come to grips the Ryzen platform has limitations which won't be resolved this generation.

Ohhh yeah blowing Intel out the water for half the price vs a few percentage here and there, what a horrible limitation... A lot of this will be addressed with updates the plataform will be just fine.. Of course second gen will be a little better it usually is.

 

[sirgallium]

This is going to sound stupid to someone, Im sure... but...

... if a game/application is single threaded and cant take advantage of a processor like Ryzen, then why has AMD not created some type of a "wrapper" through drivers/software that communicates with a single threaded application but distributes the workload across X numbers of actual cores and/or threads?

That being said, it also makes me wonder if its possible to put the "wrapper" at a transparent hardware level (on the cpu) that can be activated by software so that the operating system only sees one or two cores instead of 8 cores/16 threads that it cant take advantage of.

Sounds like the classic problem with multiple cores. Unless programs are written to specifically utilize them then they won't.

 

[MaZa]

Wat? Microsoft themselves confirmed there is a slight issue with Windows 10 scheluder and Ryzen, and performance difference with Windows 7 has been very measurable from what I have seen. In some games its miniscule and in others huge. Now, its possible that there is more to the performance issues than just the scheluder but point is that Windows 10 is apparently not making a full use of Ryzens capabilities, even if its "working". Otherwise the performance should be more or less the same between these two OS's, as it has been the case with Intel CPU's.

 

[ole-m]

SMT will always be a penalty in some middle ground of multithreaded software. Whatever intel or AMD. It's just the nature of SMT when you treat all logical cores identically.

CCX <> SMT

CCX is a group of 4 cores, that's the issue, SMT issues seems to be as random as intel as in no specific issues.
When 2 threads are loaded, each on it's own CCX and with crosstalk, funny things happens, I'm well aware of SMT issues where the Xeon 2680 have had SMT disabled

AMD is responsible for making sure the CPU works best on the target platform, Windows 10. Looks like they screwed this up and people will have to come to grips the Ryzen platform has limitations which won't be resolved this generation.

AMD did better than intel on designing a cpu for target "platforms".
Target platforms is:
Possibly MAC, Windows, Linux, Desktop, Laptop\notebook, Servers.
Zen chip works on all without any modifications and the only thing we can complain about is at worst I5 gaming performance at the moment.

With pricing in mind, who can really complain ?

 

[GDI Lord]

AMD is responsible for making sure the CPU works best on the target platform, Windows 10.

Nope.

Creating seriously intensive and performant hardware REQUIRES close collaboration with software vendors, with changes coming from both parties. And it works the other way around too.

 

[Pieter3dnow]

Nope.
Creating seriously intensive and performant hardware REQUIRES close collaboration with software vendors, with changes coming from both parties. And it works the other way around too.

It has always been this way, it does not come across like that because all of these things are hidden from users, however if you look on the Linux side of things you can see those improvements posted because they are public.

 

[rhexis]

AMD is responsible for making sure the CPU works best on the target platform, Windows 10. Looks like they screwed this up and people will have to come to grips the Ryzen platform has limitations which won't be resolved this generation.

lol that was good.

 

[Dekoth-E-]

1) Out performs my current intel chip by a massive margin.
2) Out performs current intel chips at same price point by a massive margin.
3) Doesn't arbitrarily not support Win 7


Even with minor things like this, it is a better offering than intel across the board. So happy that for the first time in many years I can switch to AMD and not end up with a handicapped space heater.

On another note, I would be more than happy to switch to win 10 just as soon as MS releases Real Win 10Pro again. Not the current bastardized version that is barely more than a version of Win 10 home with a coat of lipstick.

 

[Monkey God]

Wat? Microsoft themselves confirmed there is a slight issue with Windows 10 scheluder and Ryzen, .

Did you find an official statement FROM Microsoft on this? All I see is a bunch of crappy tech sites saying what they think Microsoft said with no direct link.

 

[Peter2k]

I look forward to reading it here
that being said

doesn't look like it's a scheduler issue at all but more core parking

https://www.computerbase.de/2017-03/ryzen-windows-7-benchmark-core-parking/

https://translate.googleusercontent...rking/&usg=ALkJrhhZyly3_xi5goZRqKq5BbQpJS5NVw

3) Doesn't arbitrarily not support Win 7

I wonder what you mean by that

Intel Kaby lake supports Windows 7 the same Ryzen does

its all about USB drivers (not being in the windows 7 iso)

Asus, Asrock, .....

all supply Windows 7 drivers for they're boards

either kaby or Ryzen

 

[Gasaraki_]

Nope.

Creating seriously intensive and performant hardware REQUIRES close collaboration with software vendors, with changes coming from both parties. And it works the other way around too.

Yes. Making sure that it works well with Windows 10 means working with Microsoft 6 MONTHS AGO, not after the processor comes out. They screwed themselves by not working with Microsoft and application and game vendors to optimize their processor architecture beforehand.

 

[stealthballer123]

No they didn't screw themselves, they brought a really good product to market that with time and effort will end up being a fantastic product.

This was an awesome release.

 

[thingi]

I wonder if this 'temp offset' (erm, bug... shhhh!) is taken into account in the BIOS/EFI when attempting to overclock a Ryzen system?

 

[Rizen]

Yes. Making sure that it works well with Windows 10 means working with Microsoft 6 MONTHS AGO, not after the processor comes out. They screwed themselves by not working with Microsoft and application and game vendors to optimize their processor architecture beforehand.

What evidence do you have that they WEREN'T working with vendors months ago? All of this stuff takes time.

Regardless, you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. For the vast majority of users and software the processor works fine. In some specific applications, they need to optimize more, which they have said they are doing. For a clean slate design, new x86 processor, this has been a very smooth release.

 

[ZeroBarrier]

No they didn't screw themselves, they brought a really good product to market that with time and effort will end up being a fantastic product.

This was an awesome release.

General consensus says otherwise, but you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[EdKiefer]

Ok, hold on, in the blog today they post about memory timings, but with MB reviews I have read, the memory timings was not in bios to edit, or am I missing something.
Maybe newer bios will have that, it is strange there no timings to edit when MB came out.

 

[ole-m]

Ok, hold on, in the blog today they post about memory timings, but with MB reviews I have read, the memory timings was not in bios to edit, or am I missing something.
Maybe newer bios will have that, it is strange there no timings to edit when MB came out.

They're in bios on the cheapest board I could find for Ryzen..... so I bet more expensive boards have em, yes it's only frequency, voltage, and 4-5 other settings which is a bit lacking but the main ones are present.

 

[EdKiefer]

They're in bios on the cheapest board I could find for Ryzen..... so I bet more expensive boards have em, yes it's only frequency, voltage, and 4-5 other settings which is a bit lacking but the main ones are present.

ok, reviews I saw I think there was only a drop-down freq numbers and voltage, this was Asus prime and Crossfire or whatever its called (250$ MB)
maybe I missed it, as I don't have system, just what I saw reviewed.

Edit: I DL manual for prime 370 pro and it seems like it does have it, "dram timing control" , while there was no list or pictures its more than what I saw reviewed (if my memory is good )

 

[Sovereign]

I'm not buying until I don't have to play hunt-the-RAM to make this work.

Am I lazy? Sure.

But I've not had to play hunt-the-ideal-RAM in years...

 

[JosiahBradley]

The tips for building a system recommend overclocking for more performance.... DUH? Most of the performance improvements he got was from OCing and making the game use a proper config file, that isn't something every game will run into. I hate marketing guys trying to make up for some deficiency. Just fix the problem and give me real technical details.

 

[ecmaster76]

Not just a clean OS install but a clean game install resulted in best performance. I formatted my C drive but did an in place re-stall of Steam on my D drive. Performance has been satisfactory but I'm not running benches.

That could explain a lot of the variance between reviews since I bet everybody has their own home grown imaging methods.

 

[ZeroBarrier]

I'm not buying until I don't have to play hunt-the-RAM to make this work.

Am I lazy? Sure.

But I've not had to play hunt-the-ideal-RAM in years...

Sorry for the off topic, but gosh you made me remember having to hunt down memory back in the day. Remember the times before they started to match dimms and sell them as dual channel kits? Having to hunt down two dimms that played well together and would pass memtest overnight was daunting.

 

[ole-m]

ok, reviews I saw I think there was only a drop-down freq numbers and voltage, this was Asus prime and Crossfire or whatever its called (250$ MB)
maybe I missed it, as I don't have system, just what I saw reviewed.

Edit: I DL manual for prime 370 pro and it seems like it does have it, "dram timing control" , while there was no list or pictures its more than what I saw reviewed (if my memory is good )

I have the B350M-A and it can indeed, with Launch date bios.
The reviews have said a lot of incorrect things, Kyle have tested very little and reported very little about ryzen but in return: what Kyle have said is correct.

 

[MaZa]

Did you find an official statement FROM Microsoft on this? All I see is a bunch of crappy tech sites saying what they think Microsoft said with no direct link.

Good point. I was speaking out of memory and therefore was not fully accurate. It all came from a Tweet Microsoft made where they basically confirmed they have bugs to squash with this new Ryzen CPU. Techsites then assume its all about scheluder since that was the hot topic of the day and what Microsoft was asked about. But scheluder or no, bugs are confirmed. And for Ryzens sake I hope they are performance related.

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/microsoft-confirms-windows-bug-is-holding-back-amd-ryzen.html

 

[ole-m]

Good point. I was speaking out of memory and therefore was not fully accurate. It all came from a Tweet Microsoft made where they basically confirmed they have bugs to squash with this new Ryzen CPU. Techsites then assume its all about scheluder since that was the hot topic of the day and what Microsoft was asked about. But scheluder or no, bugs are confirmed. And for Ryzens sake I hope they are performance related.

http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/microsoft-confirms-windows-bug-is-holding-back-amd-ryzen.html

Don't get your hopes up too much, without game dev time things won't change much.
But MS may correct it so it doesn't fall completely flat on it's face.
Regardless, The performance today is still awesome for 1700x and 1700 and it's a great deal, it's not a broken product by any means...

People hype stuff too high.

 

[fuzzylogik]

Woah hey, config files on Steam being synced to new Ryzen computers from a quad core Intel.. so the game only thinks it has four cores. Very interesting indeed! I'm curious what games do this (other than the F1 game mentioned in the article). It's interesting too that they still had to manually edit the config file for it to see the processor correctly though - but that's a substantial difference from the "baseline." Don't know if the testing methods here (or even the games have config files like that) are even affected by this? I'm curious since I'll be doing a completely new build with a clean install of everything - but will my existing steam install on a different computer sync to the new computer and set the wrong settings... or do i need to uninstall the game from ALL computers to have a truly clean install? Also, that in April they're going to release a "fix" the balanced power in Win 10 (for those that like using that) and then in May updates to MB's to support higher speed memory. Since memory speed really does appear to have a notable effect on...well, the speed of the computer. lol.