AMD shows of Fluid Motion Frames (AFMF), FG tech that works for all DX11/DX12 games

GUI element being rock solid is a nice plus, auto detection of massive change to just not use the in between frame as well.
 
ChadD said:
Proper support for Nvidia in Linux. Is not on Valve.

Its on Nvidia who do not provide proper open source drivers... and have always been a PITA, and openly hostile to the open source community. Nvidia would have wonderful Linux support if Nvidia actually open sourced their Linux drivers back at the same time AMD open sourced their Linux drivers (8 YEARS ago). Making it worse they started a war over how 2D was displayed on their hardware with the Wayland team that held development up for ages.

Frankly almost no one is willing to do work for free for Nvidia. AMD and Intel don't have that problem... both have directly supported open source development and developer communities for years. Nvidia recently has started going on about open sourcing things but nothing they have done so far actually is. Open sourcing some wrapper to their proprietary bits doesn't count... and will in no way entice a big Linux spender like Valve to drop 100s of thousands on Nvidia support as they have for AMD hardware.

NVDA is a 4 letter word in the Linux world. Which is 100% an Nvidia is staffed by assholes issue.

Having said all that you can run your own Arch Linux install... SteamOS isn't really all that special. You can use Nvidia hardware with their proprietary drivers with no real issue. Game support isn't much different from AMD hardware. AMD hardware just means you don't have to bolt proprietary drivers to your kernel every time the kernel gets updated. Its just a much smoother experience in terms of updates.
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Oh, I know how Nvidia performs in Linux both good and bad, having used Linux on and off for a decade. I am by no means a Linux expert, but not a total newcomer either. Also how the Linux community feels about Nvidia in general. However, this is not about general Linux support from Nvidia, but rather Valve and SteamOS spesifically.

Having used ChimeraOS for a while with Nvidia GPU and Intel iGPU, which is NOT SteamOS even though it draws most from it, I have first hand experienced the appeal having basically a console os where there is a single point of updating the whole system. Valves investment in Steamdeck have made gaming viable on Linux to a whole new level. I don´t care whats good for Nvidia, but having some love for Nvidia cards from Valve, releasing SteamOS 3 for the masses with proper support for other vendors then AMD, would be great for gamers in general.

Though I agree with much of what you say in your post, I disagree about SteamOS not being special. After using ChimeraOS for a while and having the fun os breaking kernel updates (it doesnt support Nvidia to begin with, but worked well when using Intel iGPU for gamescope), I bought a 6950 XT just to tinker with this. My first AMD cards since GTX 9XX or 7XX series (cant remember last time I had both AMD and Nvidia). For now, it boots into Win11 and direcly into Steams gamepad ui, but it will be on ChimeraOS or SteamOS depending on when I wipe windows from it.

Valve made SteamOS at first as an alternativ to windows for gaming, before Steamdeck. I see great value if Valve would officially release SteamOS now with more vendor neutral support, plug and play for everyone. :)
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
Oh, I know how Nvidia performs in Linux both good and bad, having used Linux on and off for a decade. I am by no means a Linux expert, but not a total newcomer either. Also how the Linux community feels about Nvidia in general. However, this is not about general Linux support from Nvidia, but rather Valve and SteamOS spesifically.

Having used ChimeraOS for a while with Nvidia GPU and Intel iGPU, which is NOT SteamOS even though it draws most from it, I have first hand experienced the appeal having basically a console os where there is a single point of updating the whole system. Valves investment in Steamdeck have made gaming viable on Linux to a whole new level. I don´t care whats good for Nvidia, but having some love for Nvidia cards from Valve, releasing SteamOS 3 for the masses with proper support for other vendors then AMD, would be great for gamers in general.

Though I agree with much of what you say in your post, I disagree about SteamOS not being special. After using ChimeraOS for a while and having the fun os breaking kernel updates (it doesnt support Nvidia to begin with, but worked well when using Intel iGPU for gamescope), I bought a 6950 XT just to tinker with this. My first AMD cards since GTX 9XX or 7XX series (cant remember last time I had both AMD and Nvidia). For now, it boots into Win11 and direcly into Steams gamepad ui, but it will be on ChimeraOS or SteamOS depending on when I wipe windows from it.

Valve made SteamOS at first as an alternativ to windows for gaming, before Steamdeck. I see great value if Valve would officially release SteamOS now with more vendor neutral support, plug and play for everyone. :)
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There are Linux distros that play nicer with nVidia regardless of their BS mind you, I would suggest just sticking to those to avoid issues for nVidia users. As otherwise, till nVidia stops fucking around, the situation likely won't change much.

But I do agree, that Valve should release SteamOS 3 desktop. So we can build our own systems based on the awesome work they have done on the Steamdeck.
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
Oh, I know how Nvidia performs in Linux both good and bad, having used Linux on and off for a decade. I am by no means a Linux expert, but not a total newcomer either. Also how the Linux community feels about Nvidia in general. However, this is not about general Linux support from Nvidia, but rather Valve and SteamOS spesifically.

Having used ChimeraOS for a while with Nvidia GPU and Intel iGPU, which is NOT SteamOS even though it draws most from it, I have first hand experienced the appeal having basically a console os where there is a single point of updating the whole system. Valves investment in Steamdeck have made gaming viable on Linux to a whole new level. I don´t care whats good for Nvidia, but having some love for Nvidia cards from Valve, releasing SteamOS 3 for the masses with proper support for other vendors then AMD, would be great for gamers in general.
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For Valve to help Nvidia, they would need a basis to do so. AMD and Intel both have working open source drivers built into the Linux kernel, while Nvidia does not. Nouveau does exist but it doesn't really work due to issues like reclocking, which we may have a breakthrough thanks to Nvidia's bios signature being broken. There's no Vulkan driver, though work has been done. While Nvidia might have open source their drivers, they just released the source code. It's not like AMD and Intel where they actively pay employee's to work on native Linux drivers. What Valve is doing is helping out, but by not means are they doing the heavy lifting. If you want to see Nvidia get the same treatment then they need to do something. The Nouveau guys are not paid by Nvidia, and they get no help either.
Though I agree with much of what you say in your post, I disagree about SteamOS not being special. After using ChimeraOS for a while and having the fun os breaking kernel updates (it doesnt support Nvidia to begin with, but worked well when using Intel iGPU for gamescope), I bought a 6950 XT just to tinker with this. My first AMD cards since GTX 9XX or 7XX series (cant remember last time I had both AMD and Nvidia). For now, it boots into Win11 and direcly into Steams gamepad ui, but it will be on ChimeraOS or SteamOS depending on when I wipe windows from it.
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I don't see how that makes SteamOS special. You're better off going with a real distro for gaming, and I wouldn't recommend an Arch based one like SteamOS and ChimeraOS. While I like the idea of an OS that gets constantly updated, there are moments when things break due to this. While this does solve some problems, it introduces a lot of new problems. You're better off using a Ubuntu based distro for stability reasons, and just update the kernel for performance.

Dw_RjB7U8AAF8OS.jpg

Valve made SteamOS at first as an alternativ to windows for gaming, before Steamdeck. I see great value if Valve would officially release SteamOS now with more vendor neutral support, plug and play for everyone. :)
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Considering that they use an AMD GPU, they wouldn't care for Nvidia support. Also again there's no reason to use SteamOS when it's just another Arch based distro. You can also go with EndeavourOS or continue to use ChimeraOS. Keep in mind that SteamOS is built around Steam, so it doesn't make your life easier if you plan to play games from Battle.net or Epic.
 
DukenukemX said:
For Valve to help Nvidia, they would need a basis to do so. AMD and Intel both have working open source drivers built into the Linux kernel, while Nvidia does not. Nouveau does exist but it doesn't really work due to issues like reclocking, which we may have a breakthrough thanks to Nvidia's bios signature being broken. There's no Vulkan driver, though work has been done. While Nvidia might have open source their drivers, they just released the source code. It's not like AMD and Intel where they actively pay employee's to work on native Linux drivers. What Valve is doing is helping out, but by not means are they doing the heavy lifting. If you want to see Nvidia get the same treatment then they need to do something. The Nouveau guys are not paid by Nvidia, and they get no help either.

I don't see how that makes SteamOS special. You're better off going with a real distro for gaming, and I wouldn't recommend an Arch based one like SteamOS and ChimeraOS. While I like the idea of an OS that gets constantly updated, there are moments when things break due to this. While this does solve some problems, it introduces a lot of new problems. You're better off using a Ubuntu based distro for stability reasons, and just update the kernel for performance.

View attachment 593971

Considering that they use an AMD GPU, they wouldn't care for Nvidia support. Also again there's no reason to use SteamOS when it's just another Arch based distro. You can also go with EndeavourOS or continue to use ChimeraOS. Keep in mind that SteamOS is built around Steam, so it doesn't make your life easier if you plan to play games from Battle.net or Epic.
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Thank you for your suggestions, but my point in this thread about SteamOS and also when it comes to my personal build for a PC gaming console, is not about replacing a Windows OS with Linux in general. I think you are more arguing about benefits of replacing Windows or general PC usage on Linux. :)

This is going to be a longer post, since some might find it interesting for their own systems and get some ideas at least.

My personal build is at the moment booting directly into Steams GamepadUI (former big picture) and is perfectly stable (the 6950 XT was pretty much plug and play. Runs everything from the old point-and-click A Vampire story to newer games like Baldurs gate 3 from my testing of various games). Installing Linux on that PC would mean a lot of sacrifices, considering this is a "console gaming" computer only connected to a TV. I would not gain all the benefits of Linux as a desktop replacement would in other cases.

Lets keep things real and look at this as choices for a setup for a TV with using a gamepad to navigate it. Sure, with Linux as OS, I would gain more stability in the long run, more customizing options and less bloat. But, I would loose many key features that I currently have under windows.

Just to name a few (and I can name more):
*Game support will be less on linux (especially games with DRM and Anti-cheat features), performance will be less in many games.
*Also, launcher support can be a hit and miss sometimes.
*AutoHDR is fun and something I personally like in games.
*I do enjoy VR gaming and Linux would not be the OS of choice there ...
*For hardware support, Linux still have licensing issues with HDMI 2.1, so 4K, 120hz VRR with 4:4:4 colors and dynamic HDR support will not be available at the moment.

Sounds like I am arguing as to why I should stick to Windows on that PC, doesn´t it? :)

This is a about repurpose hardware for secondary systems, not what to put on primary system. In my case, I have shuffled around a bit hardware:

*Chimeraos build (formally Windows build for TV): 8700K, 32GB memory, GTX 1080 (and 2080 TI at some point). 5600X system on primary computer. 8700K was used for ChimaraOS with Intel iGPU for gamescope and Nvidia GPU for rendering (with AMD, I could have done everything on a single GPU).

The 8700K build is now a Truenas build with 4 NAS drives and a NVME drive for Truenas (love ZFS).

*The 5600X build is upgraded to a 5800X3d build, GPU upgraded to my first AMD card for 4-5 generations (6950XT) and runs Windows at the moment for testing, but will run ChimeraOS soon.

*Main system is now a 7800X3D based system.

Why ChimeraOS or SteamOS 3, considering all I know I loose in terms of game compatibility and hardware compatibility for a TV setup?

ChimeraOS and SteamOS 3 are immutable OS´s made with one task at hand: play games like a console. Everyone can log into their own steam account and the whole machine is operated with a controller. If you want to do anything besides that, its with flatpaks running in their own container not needing root access or dependencies that can screw up the console build.

Unlike standard OS that have to cater to everyones needs, those maintaining SteamOS and ChimeraOS have less compatibility to focus on. Sure, its more limiting in a sense, but this is a console build, not an all purpose build. You get a baseline with immutable os + flatpak (apps) like you are more used to, like a cross between Android and Xbox, while having an upgrade and repurpose path when upgrading your main build.

Valve already have released SteamOS console hardware and OS for the public 10 years ago, at that time with Nvidia as GPU of choice. Releasing SteamOS 3 with broader hardware support (as some love for Nvidia cards) would not be against what they have historically done with SteamOS.

The success of Steamdeck have introduced many more to linux gaming (and I bet many don´t even know its linux under the hood). Having a diy steamdeck console is more appealing then ever before and much more set and forget then running windows or linux with SteamdeckUI on top of that.

Lack of game support in some titles, some hardware support missing ... Those sacrifices can be made for a secondary repurposed system. Games can be streamed from main system and the whole family for people can enjoy a DIY steamdeck setup infront of the TV with their very own Steam account ready to go!

How does this relate to the topic at hand?:
Steamdeck users have been using upscaling FSR to get decent framerates. As also consoles do in some titles (even Nintendo switch, where Zelda had to use FSR 1.0 to get enough framerate). For DIY consoles with SteamOS, upscaling methods are godsend, since hardware is not always current gen. Some artifacts can be ok, since you sit infront of a TV playing game with some distance. Framegen is an added bonus to this and for DIY consoles, being able to hit 60FPS and double it, will bring it more on parity with consoles that soon can do the same.

Fluid motion frames can be a step above that again, bringing framegen to older titles that doesn´t have it baked in the game itself. If this works ok, DIY consoles is where this might be most useful (TV and controller mask a bit the issues that games can have).
 
I’m assuming AMD will have 2 versions of this, one that work’s reasonably well that requires game integration, and a second that you can enable in the drivers with a checkbox that will try its best. Similar to how they did FSR initially.
 
Lakados said:
I’m assuming AMD will have 2 versions of this, one that work’s reasonably well that requires game integration, and a second that you can enable in the drivers with a checkbox that will try its best. Similar to how they did FSR initially.
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The AFMF as it is, is like RSR or FSR 1. Works across all (dx11 & dx12) games — but only on RDNA 3 gpus (& hopefully RDNA 3 igpus such as Rog Ally & Legion Go)

When you add motion vector to it, it becomes FSR 3 (But this needs game integration for each individual game)
 
Lakados said:
I’m assuming AMD will have 2 versions of this, one that work’s reasonably well that requires game integration, and a second that you can enable in the drivers with a checkbox that will try its best. Similar to how they did FSR initially.
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That is literally what was announced, yes.
 
They should have called it MFAF.

Edit: my attempt at a joke cratered. Dangit.
 
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OutOfPhase said:
They should have called it MFAF.
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I was kinda surprised they didn't call it Radeon Fluid Motion Frames (RFMF). So that the naming scheme was consistent with Radeon Anti-Lag, Chill, Boost, Sharpen, Enhanced Sync and the up coming Radeon Hypr-RX that allows allot of these features to work together.
 
As for the naming I think AMD is intentionally trying to keep their branding out of it.

The industry needs one to “win”, they don’t want the FSR or DLSS choice either, they don’t like having to pick their battles any more than we like feeling we’re missing out. Only do FSR well you’ve just left the bulk of the PC gaming community feeling like they don’t get the option for the “better” technology. Only do DLSS well now you’re leaving out consoles and a good portion of the PC gamers who need to run the game in potato mode to play.
Do both and it’s a time sink that pulls resources from other aspects.

Nvidia won’t openly back an AMD-branded technology any more than AMD would back an Nvidia-branded one. They could be 100% open source, wouldn’t matter, and neither party would support it because it would damage their brand.

We need a 3’rd option that isn’t tied to Gameworks or GPUOpen directly and assuming it works well enough I hope this could be it. The solution is done in HLSL, meaning it could be rolled into DirectX via a driver update, and similarly brought into Vulkan. The only way we get out of this FSR/DLSS debate is if one of these ends up baked into the language standard and I personally feel this could be the one, assuming it works well. Nvidia would be free to accelerate it with the various bits and bobs they have placed onto their cards and they could optimize it at a driver level to make use of their AI algorithm advantages, so they could continue to leverage their DLSS work, hell even brand it as such but we collectively need this fight to end. Because there are no winners here.
 
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It's just a shame Nvidia never made anything like Nvidia Streamline that we could point to here, and shame we couldn't point out AMD is the only one stopping AMD from participating in it as well, if such a thing even existed

Oh well 🤷
 
staknhalo said:
It's just a shame Nvidia never made anything like Nvidia Streamline that we could point to here, and shame we couldn't point out AMD is the only one stopping AMD from participating in it as well, if such a thing even existed

Oh well 🤷
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Streamline is kinda only open source in name. From my understanding in order to make and release anything to work using it, requires nVidia to approve it and digital sign it. No one should get on-board with something where nVidia gets to be the gate keeper.

*late edit* Assuming of course you didn't fork your own version of it. But that is a whole other ball of wax.
 
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TrunksZero said:
Streamline is kinda only open source in name. From my understanding in order to make and release anything to work using it, requires nVidia to approve it and digital sign it. No one should get on-board with something where nVidia gets to be the gate keeper.
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I think you can use any signing system (or not, but it would make for a quite dangerous product), at least the verbage on their documentation sound like it
https://github.com/NVIDIAGameWorks/Streamline
IMPORTANT: Only use production builds when releasing your software. Also, use either the original NVIDIA-signed SL DLLs or implement your own signing system (and check for that signature in SL), otherwise SL plugins could be replaced with potentially malicious modules.
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Every source outside sl.dlss_g.dll is provided now and it is a quite open MIT license.
 
LukeTbk said:
I think you can use any signing system (or not, but it would make for a quite dangerous product), at least the verbage on their documentation sound like it
https://github.com/NVIDIAGameWorks/Streamline


Every source outside sl.dlss_g.dll is provided now and it is a quite open MIT license.
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He/they mean 'Nvidia bad, don't care what things actually say and actually are'
 
LukeTbk said:
I think you can use any signing system (or not, but it would make for a quite dangerous product), at least the verbage on their documentation sound like it
https://github.com/NVIDIAGameWorks/Streamline


Every source outside sl.dlss_g.dll is provided now and it is a quite open MIT license.
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I stand corrected. If it doesn't require nVidia to digitally sign, that's good.
 
It should be noted that the signature is required because it allows for the Streamline modules to be updated independently of the developer, so if Nvidia updates the DLSS version in the repository it would allow GeForce experience to update the modules without the developer issuing an update, supposedly the Epic launcher also updates the DLSS versions of games in its library but for obvious reasons I have not tested that.
 
TrunksZero said:
I stand corrected. If it doesn't require nVidia to digitally sign, that's good.
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It's just Streamline not the binaries that make DLSS work. Kind of like making the drive way to your house open source but not the house itself. It's more of an indemnity clause than anything else.
 
They say 12, but I count 20 games listed on the screen shot and I read All your games on it.

And on the AMD website they use cyberpunk as an example of game, not in that 20 lsited games:
  • AFMF may be enabled for any DirectX® 11 and 12 title such as Cyberpunk 2077 using the per-app settings within AMD Software: Adrenalin Edition™.
So I am not sure videocardz article is right here, is it possible that only a list of 20 titles for which the activation of the feature is different (in a geforce experience auto set settings to game way ?):
AFMF can be automatically enabled using HYPR-RX or using the Global Graphics Settings toggle for these select titles;
 
Yea if this is optical flow only it'll be anywhere from decent to downright terrible. We already have this for movies with SmoothVideo Project and the result are decent to terrible with a lot of artifacting.
 
ChosenUno said:
Yea if this is optical flow only it'll be anywhere from decent to downright terrible. We already have this for movies with SmoothVideo Project and the result are decent to terrible with a lot of artifacting.
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FWIW, SVP goes from decent to state-of-the-art when enabling RIFE mode; and even more powerful when enabling TensorRT for RIFE. Frame doubling then becomes perceptibly artifactless to the extent that it's mind boggling.

Downside is that neural-net based interpolation requires heavy computational power. Like realtime doubling 4K 30FPS -> 60FPS maxes out an RTX 4090.
 
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A clarification;

AFMF (Frame Generation) is now enabled in both RDNA 2 & RDNA 3 cards

anti-lag+ as of now is available only on RDNA 3
RDNA 2 cards have older anti-lag (without the +)

EuroGamer recently compared anti-lag & anti-lag+ in a few games. Details below:

Marees said:
AMD recently added a new HYPR-RX mode to its AMD Software: Adrenalin Edition, intended to give users of its RX 7000 series graphics cards an easy way to boost performance and responsiveness in a range of games. Enabling this profile automatically engages a range of technologies, including image upscaling (RSR/FSR), latency reduction (Anti-Lag+) and context-sensitive resolution reduction (Boost). In a small number of "HYPR-Tuned" games, these features are automatically applied when the HYPR-RX profile is engaged, while in others you'll need to lower your input resolution or choose an FSR upscaling mode to enable the feature in each title.


EuroGamer tested Anti-Lag+, on a system with RX 7900 XTX, a Core i5 13400F and 32GB of DDR5-6000 memory.


Overwatch 2:
With HYPR-RX disabled and AMD's software running in its default mode, I saw 14.4ms of latency when the game was running in the practice range on Ultra settings - this was at 4K with FSR 2.2 in quality mode (67 percent resolution scale).
With HYPR-RX enabled, this figure dropped to a consistent 8.5ms.
I was curious to see how regular Anti-Lag fared versus the enhanced version, and was shocked to see a result of 13.3ms with Anti-Lag alone - so the per-game optimisations in Anti-Lag+ resulted in a nearly 5ms drop in latency.


Starfield running at 4K with high settings and FSR 2 upscaling at ~100fps, the input lag measurements are 25ms (Anti-Lag+), 30ms (Anti-Lag) and 36ms (Anti-Lag disabled).


The Witcher 3 at 4K Ultra RT with FSR 2 upscaling at ~70fps ran with 38ms (Anti-Lag+), 61ms (Anti-Lag) and 78ms (Anti-Lag disabled). Disabling HYPR-RX altogether dropped latency slightly further, to 81ms.


Star Wars Jedi: Survivor saw similar cuts to latency when running at 4K FSR 2 quality at ~70fps. At its best, Survivor runs at 35ms with Anti-Lag+, 51ms with Anti-Lag and 58ms with Anti-Lag disabled.



https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfo...easy-way-to-cut-latency-and-boost-frame-rates
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Think of Frame Generation as a visual feature rather than performance boost.

Twitter thread below:

https://twitter.com/HardwareUnboxed/status/1708677378481041804?s=20

The problem with FSR3/DLSS Frame Generation is that it’s marketed as a performance feature. But it’s not a performance feature at all. Rather, it’s purely a GRAPHICAL feature!For Example: Anti-Aliasing is a graphical feature that you turn on to smooth out the image… (1/4)

…But it costs some performance. Now think of Frame Generation. It smooths out the presentation of the image and makes it more fluid. Buuut it actually costs performance - in this case it costs input lag specifically - which to me is the main metric of performance…. (2/4)

So if you’re expecting a “performance” boost, like all the marketing says it is, then you’ll be disappointed and confused, like I was initially.But if you think about Frame Generation purely as a graphical feature/setting, and use it as such, then I think it makes sense. (3/4)

FG can be useful for enhancing the single player experience if the base frame rate is at or above 60 fps. Input for shooters is pretty awful below 60 fps and no amount of smoothing fixes that.
 
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